Who lives in or near an LTN?

I live in Chorlton, south Manchester, there are a number of LTN near me. I'm pretty certain that for folks who live on the roads that they barricade, life has improved. For the folks who live on roads that have become rat-runs subsequently, not so much. The LTN for the road I live was proposed to be installed a couple of years ago and AFAIK was well supported locally, for reasons I can't find out, it hasn't happened (yet) Meanwhile Manchester is busy installing bike lanes all around me, which is fine, the plans are going ahead...but where's my LTN?

Petty local politics always gets in the way somehow.

Yes, technically. Although it's an older one as the road was cut through for a DC bypass. Residents are vociferously opposed to any suggestion that the end of the road should be connected to the main road even though it means they have to drive up into the village and then back out to the main road. Obviously this being the UK no one in their right mind actually rides a bike.

There has also been some 'hard' traffic management done in a few of the villages. The school road has been turned into an LTN, and to prevent the parralel-ish road becoming a rat run the opposite main road linking to the next village has about 10 give way chicanes to slow traffic down enough that most people now take the slightly longer bypass around the village entirely.

There's a proposal to do similar on other roads, although there isn't the same full LTN + bypass option. Still get's uproar on the local facebook groups despite the fact locals parking on that road turn it into the same thing anyway.

For the folks who live on roads that have become rat-runs subsequently, not so much.

Got a link to that proof? The few articles I've seen on it conclude that either the difference is a reduction in traffic on nearby roads as well, assumed because people don't drive upto an LTN then make several right angle turns to navigate around it, their satnav makes much bigger changes, keeps them on arterial routes etc. Or the conclusion was inconclusive as any LTN's created in the recent past are outweighed by the effects of COVID changing peoples transport choices both for better and worse. Fewer journeys overall, more individual car use, more cycling, less public transport.

LTN make Fair Fuel Uk / Howard Cos, Daily Mail and GBN consumers furious. They must therefore be a very good thing.

I would guess that overall traffic would reduce slightly, but there may be specific streets that become busier (which could probably be designed out if residents are happy to lose their 'locals' shortcut out to their preferred route.)

I live in or near an LTN that is regularly featured in the Daily Mail (in a bad way). Notes:

1) between COVID, post-COVID work patterns, and just every other factor, it is surprisingly difficult to get data on traffic on surrounding streets. That's especially true if the scheme was introduced as a COVID emergency response.

2) people are terrible at anecdotal data. Plenty of opponents were claiming traffic jams were due to the LTN, but at least sometimes the LTN was not in operation or there had always been jams.

3) people love to be barrack room traffic engineers, advancing all sorts of wacky theories for and against "because it stands to reason". One guy was trying to invent a 6x7m box which would simultaneously be an HGV turning circle and a cycle lane. He'd done the measurements and everything...

4) local yokels wanted exemptions for taxis, buses, blue badge holders, old people, local residents, visitors and deliveries to local residents...basically everyone. Non-blue badge holders were most vociferous about the scheme "discriminating" against disabled people - but they did not want to assist disabled people by driving their own cars less or getting out of the way of public transport. A local provate school didn't wamt an LTN because it would havr interfered with staff parking their cars at school dropoff time. No-one wanted parking permits (even free) and everyone was appalled by how lazy the council was being because they couldn't just "get the data from thr DVLA".

5) old people were the most outraged. "Are you telling me I can't drive my car 300 yards down the road to buy a newspaper at 9am, just like I have for the last 30 years?". Yes - yes, I am.

6) local councillors and council staff were subjected to very personal abuse and allegations. Oddball motorists' rights groups and anonymous "local" pressure groups appeared. The last local elections were painted as a referendum on LTNs - and the incumbents were re-elected with an increased majority.

7) practically no-one knows what road signs mean, and are then shocked to bd fined when they disobey them...including me on one occasion tbf

There is a small number of opponents that still maintain it is literally the worst thing since Pol Pot. There is potentially a group of people on adjacent roads that had increased traffic. Everyone else seems to be getting on with it.

I live in one (very very close to you @nickc) and its bloody brilliant.

Our streets used to be a rat run to avoid a particular junction, our road didnt suffer that badly until they did a half arsed LTN, they blocked the main rat run but that just pushed EVERYONE down our street. it was terrible. Now it a full LTN and its great, we have kids playing on the street now.

There were a couple of people in our street group that were vocally against it (no prizes for guessing which pigeonhole they fall into), usual arguments of what if I need an ambulance and it cant get here because it stuck in traffic!!! ffs.

It adds an extra couple of minuted to my life if I happen to want to drive the way thats now blocked, a price everyone seems happy with now the streets are much much quieter ALL the time.

local councillors and council staff were subjected to very personal abuse and allegations. Oddball motorists’ rights groups and anonymous “local” pressure groups appeared. The last local elections were painted as a referendum on LTNs – and the incumbents were re-elected with an increased majority.

The introduced a 20mph limit where I live, it was initially a trial. The engineer overseeing the project received death threats at work. As a result all consultation moved to hard copy responses only so they could be more easily and safely filtered to protect staff wellbeing.

None where I live at all. Wouldn't mind some. That said there is next to bugger all decent cycle infrastructure. South East Manchester.

@politecameraaction - that sounds suspiciously like the LTNs "imposed" by the draconian socialist cabal of councillors and militant cycling lobby groups near where my Mum lives... 😉

I love them, in fact they're an essential part of traffic management going forward but oh my god the poor put-upon hard working motorists who can no longer drive little Tabitha 400m to the school gates in the SUV don't half let everyone know about how unfair life now is for them.

None near me in Brighton. Labour councillors and my otherwise-great labour MP waged an anti-active-travel infrastructure campaign. I'm very jealous of the places with councillors brave and principled enough to push these changes through.

Got a link to that proof?

'Tis nought but the flimsiest of anecdote. Entirely based on the noise of the backfiring exhaust that woke me up last night

LTNs are a bit if a tricky one - we were meant to be having one in Rochdale but the filters were set on fire the day they went in... It's currently meant to be going back in on a scaled back basis a week on Monday.

As above it's hard to get definitive evidence but there is at least some traffic evaporation once they've bedded in (this is the converse of induced demand) even on boundary roads, and by allowing boundary road traffic to flow better (less cars turning in and out of side roads) there should be an improvement in air quality due to less accelerating/braking. Contrary to some of the ranting on SoMe LTNs do not block vehicular access, only through traffic.

In general about 2/3 of people are in favour of active travel measures, in survey after survey. However they're often drowned out by a very vocal minority who I strongly suspect don't actually live in the proposed LTN.

The long and the short of it is that we need to do stuff to encourage people to walk/ride short distances, for public health/cost of living reasons as much as anything else. It often feels that the right to drive wherever people want has trumped the rights of people to have safe streets and clean air, and the rights of children, those who want to walk or cycle, and the 1:4 UK households who don't have access to a car.

The temporary Covid one near me has been very recently upgraded to permanent.

I miss being able to dodge the traffic-lights by nipping through it (as I live in the next street I never considered myself a rat-runner, but I'm prob kidding myself), but I used to see knobbers hurtling down it as I walked to work each morning and it's now a much nicer place to be without them.
It annoyed me that they weren't content with avoiding the queue at the lights, but felt the need to speed down a narrow residential street too. If they'd been more considerate I don't think I'd have had a problem with them.

Although it mostly seems well designed, I've stuck a pic below showing the weird layout at the end of it. It's essentially a T-junction, but for some reason they've split it into 3 lanes...

The weird thing is that, in apparent contradiction to the stands to reason brigade, the vote share for pro-LTN councillors has gone up.

I find the whole shouty minority thing very confusing. I think that they can only hear themselves shout and hence are really surprised that there are lots of less loud people that think (and vote) differently.

@Clover I think the truth of it is that the people making the most noise often don't actually live in a proposed LTN, and it's simply not the wedge issue the antis think it is.

Progressive parties can be really disappointing on active travel, presumably because they want to be seen to be representing Hardworking Everyday Motorists(tm). I did feel marginally sorry for CFoC when they asked for examples of where Tory councils had done well with AT and got crickets, though.

As a recently elected Councillor with a city ward and a seat on the committee that debates such things I will be monitoring this thread with interest.

that sounds suspiciously like the LTNs “imposed” by the draconian socialist cabal of councillors and militant cycling lobby groups near where my Mum lives… 😉

It's hard to tell, as the same pattern seems to be playing out all over the place!

‘Tis nought but the flimsiest of anecdote. Entirely based on the noise of the backfiring exhaust that woke me up last night

That's the best kind of anecdotal evidence though.

My OH keeps complaining that her memory is getting worse. It's not, she's just forgotten how bad it used to be.

Tis nought but the flimsiest of anecdote

Standard anti-LTN playbook.

Demand data. More data, from here and there and this time and that time.

Whenever actual data is presented, rubbish it as being unreliable, biased, flawed, not from the right time or place...

And then present your own, entirely anecdotal, "evidence" that things have never been so bad, traffic has never been this heavy and it's all the fault of the LTN.

I'm not anti LTN.

I was expecting an LTN to be installed in my road, and I'd like it to be sooner rather than later. There's some pretty disruptive roadworks near me (cycle infrastructure being built) that means idiots are using my road to avoid them. I'd very much like that to stop.

As with active travel threads in the past, I'd strongly encourage anyone with an interest in this stuff to get involved, even if that's limited to emailing councillors, or joining the mailing list for your local active travel campaign group.

In the Ealing area, which seemed to attract a lot of the media attention about these. I think most of them have gone now, but one or two still remain. I miss 'em and wanted some more (well, my street anyway) but that doesn't seem likely now. The local tradesmen I spoke to at the time disliked them, as did some local parents who complained their drive to Waitrose now took 15-20 minutes instead of 5. Grrr! (yes I did try gently suggesting that other ways to get your shopping are possible)

its great, we have kids playing on the street now.

But.. isn't that what old people complain doesn't happen any more?

LTN = Low traffic neighbourhood.

Just for the benefit of anyone else that didn't know what the everyone was talking about.

My old workplace was in East Oxford and surrounded by them. I used to ride the 20 miles (on and off) to work and the benefit to those within them was massive. Being Oxford, there was always a hardcore of bikers taking kids to school in those big cargo/ kids transporter things. East oxford has a mix of rich and poor and regular types and what the LTN did was allow normal people on normal bikes take their kids on regular kids bikes to school. It was definitely a leveller and a joy to see. For those in the rat runs it looked like a huge bonus. I also have two mates on the main roads where all the cars are funnelled and for them it’s a disaster, utter gridlock outside the house during commuting hours. If there’s a crash or problem on those roads it’s obviously even worse.
Eventually I can see it working if it’s affordable to have cameras on the blocked off areas to allow residents easier movement but still blocking rat run car commuting.
Oxford is rubbish for cycling infrastructure and has the problems associated with an ancient city, narrow main roads and lots of waterways kettling drivers over bridges everywhere.
I miss my rides to work however as I’d nailed the route using roads, canal and river paths.

have cameras on the blocked off areas to allow residents easier movement but still blocking rat run car commuting.

The point of LTNs is not to stop other people driving through the neighbourhood and make it easier for me as a local to drive. There is no way out of congestion, pollution and climate change that doesn't involve everyone driving less, one way or another.

I live inside one that is in trial stage. We've recently been sent traffic data; 2600 fewer cars in 12 hours at a key junction, 140 more pedestrians and 100 more cyclists.

It's been transformational for us. Gone from being a race track with most cars being not far off from getting air over the speed bumps, to a sleepy village feel, overnight. It's pushed me from maybe 50% food shops being by bike to nearly 100% as the filter is between me and the supermarket. It seems to have forced way more school kids to walk to school for the same reason.

For a long time it was a culture war issue on the local Facebook page, to the point that other local areas were taking the piss out of it. But that seems to have translated to votes in contrast to what others above have said - labour have successfully painted it as a green party policy despite (I believe) having more councillors on the committee managing it, and I think this had a strong factor in the last 2 locals switching from green to labour councillors, despite there being other very strong reasons to not put our trust in labour here right now.

I was expecting an LTN to be installed in my road

My councillor tells me it's not happening

edit : removed boring email response

I can tell him already that the road works to construct the cycle lanes are already pushing traffic along my street there's never been a more pressing need to stop that and keep traffic on the main road.

It’d be good to see more LTNs.

Pleasing that many east<->west roads in south manchester are now designated 20mph zones. If only there were some effective measures like harsh Bournemouth-style humps to enforce these limits.

there is next to bugger all decent cycle infrastructure. South East Manchester.

@fossy but there’s the fantastic length of cycle lane on the north side of the Parrs Wood/Wilmslow road junction! Sarcasm there, it is the most useless and confusing waste of paint I’ve seen in many MCC cycle path fails.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/SbwG8knpgZynMKGt6?g_st=ic

For a long time it was a culture war issue on the local Facebook pag

IMVHO local politicians and groups get ovwrly fixated with Facebook and local forums, but practically no-one in reality is reading and paying attention to the local Big Hitters. There was a period where running a campaign or group was synonymous with running the Facebook page, but those days are thankfully over

Guardian reporting significant health benefits to living in an LTN, with a cost:benefit of about 1:100

Significantly, the study found that the positive impacts, particularly for walking and cycling rates, tended to be more noticeable after schemes had been in place for a year or two, rather than immediately, indicating that councils should not determine an LTN’s success or otherwise too early.

The research, led by Prof Rachel Aldred of Westminster University, also suggested that the positive benefits tend to continue growing over time, meaning the benefit-to-cost ratio for LTNs of between 50-1 and 200-1 estimated by the study are likely to be conservative.

Using a Department for Transport tool that calculates the economic benefits from people being more active, both in terms of better health and reduced workplace sickness, the study calculated a total 20-year dividend from the LTN areas in the three boroughs at slightly over £1bn, with £821m coming from public health. It found that each year an average of 37 deaths and more than 500,000 sick days were avoided.

Can I just say though - just went on ****ter and searched for LTN.
Oh.
My.
Word.
There are some nutcases. Apparently LTN = concentration camp. Apparently thousands of cars queuing on a main road in London = LTN a mile away caused it completely. Apparently LTN = should be banned so that the car has primacy on any street, anywhere, at any time.

Newcastle Council have just removed a trial one I travel through several times/ week. Notable already more impatient drivers trying barge past me with bike trailer. It's shite.

Apparently the feedback site had no requirement for indication if you were local residents,  so wingnuts from around the country gave negative feedback.

It's depressing, things will never change at this rate.

What's annoying is that you can guarantee that a sizable proportion of those objecting to LTN's live on cul-de-sacs, which are the same thing! They just don't want that benefit extending to other people because it might slightly inconvenience them.

Our road was an LTN before they became fashionable, The A33 was built in 1980 and cut it off so it went from country lane to a dead end.

just went on ****ter and searched for LTN.

Yeah, don't do that, it's bad for your mental health. 😬

@northshoreniall We had a trial in Rochdale. On the first night, someone set fire to the planters and threatened a load of councillors so predictably the council backed down. It's understandable but also disappointing.

Difficulty is that SoMe echo chambers create the impression that lots of people oppose traffic restriction (contrary to evidence) and that people will vote against it (again contrary to evidence); as @thisisnotaspoon says, the people complaining most vocally often seem not to live in a proposed LTN.

I've said before and I'll say again - it's worth getting involved in your local active travel group, and contacting councillors/candidates to say you support AT.

Yeah, don’t do that, it’s bad for your mental health. 😬

I knew that.
But like nibbling finger nails, it is something hard to stop sometimes.
But yes, I have to share the same street as these nutters.

And another story to wind up the car lobby, ULEZ reaps benefits;

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/mar/08/sadiq-khan-hails-remarkable-progress-in-improving-london-air-quality

And another one from Road.cc: Government tried to bury report which found that Low Traffic Neighbourhoods are effective and popular

Yep, just spotted that in the Guardian, came to post the same story!

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/mar/08/low-traffic-neighbourhoods-generally-popular-report-ordered-by-sunak-finds

Might dip into the local forum where my Mum lives, this will have set the gammons off. 😂

The issue is that SoMe =/= the real world. Massive FB backlash to fairly conservative plans to make Heywood town centre a bit nicer...

I live on a Victorian terrace street. It is one off a main road. Way back before LTNs were a thing and I lived here they put bollards in to stop people using it as a cut through bypassing a busy junction. You'd not find anyone here that want's the bollards removed.

I grew up on a Cul de sac. There were cut throughs to over streets on foot or bike.

mostly it's fear of change and anger at traffic jams - but people don't look to see what the real problem is. They just removed an LTN in Jesmond, Newcastle and would you believe it there are still traffic jams everywhere!

I've run into this repeatedly in my work as a councillor, the online conspiracy theories about this and 15 minute cities are mind-boggling.

Last year all the Councillors in my district were told to urgently remove their home addresses from any public site because a very disturbed individual had put up a video on Youtube to his few thousand followers saying that we are all outriders of a fascist new world order and actively encouraging his viewers to go to the homes of local councilors to 'confront them'.

LTN's and 15 minute cites featured heavily in his diatribe.

It's only a matter of time before a local politician or council officer just trying to do their job  is murdered over this BS, the current government have no interest in clamping down on it as it's what fires up some of their keenest supporters.

I lived in a trial zone that was revoked at the end of the trial period. Drivers managed to make enough noise that councillors voted against, despite the results of the analysis showing that it was truly successful at reducing traffic both inside the ltn and on surrounding roads. Yay...

The LTN discourse is a crystallization of that line by Yeats:

The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

The supporters are busy and have better things to do than attend council meetings and write long, angry letters to all and sundry. It's just not taking up much of their brainspace.

The opponents, to be frank, don't have much else going on in their lives and can therefore devote vast amounts of bandwidth to it, as you would if you genuinely thought LTN's were part of a plot by George Soros and Bill Gates to lock you in your home and put nanomachines in your children.

It's all so very, very tiring to fight against.

@hatter That fits with the 'most people are quietly in favour, and even if they're part of the minority against, they usually don't care enough to change their vote' narrative?

I thought I was in favour of LTNs but when our area became one, traffic diverted from existing through routes started using my (previously quiet) road as a sanctioned cut through. Like any other traffic measure it's success depends on planning and consultation. Our council are notorious for a lack of both. For instance they failed to notice beer wagons could no longer get to the local pub after LTN .

That fits with the ‘most people are quietly in favour, and even if they’re part of the minority against, they usually don’t care enough to change their vote’ narrative?

I was talking to the local councillor where my Mum lives and said I was fully in favour of it. He said most people would say, privately to him, that they were in favour but they daren't show that favour in public because of the behaviour of a small minority of the anti-LTN people.

They'd intimidate, threaten and doxx supporters, vandalise property... And then claim that it was pro-LTN people doing it to cast aspersions on the anti- side!

Part of his reason for the house calls was to reassure "supporters" that they were actually a majority.

A lot of recent (and not so recent) housing developments are effectively LTNs, as they have limited access and provide little or no cut-throughs potential.
My local district only has 3 access points, plus one extra, for buses only, so doesn't suffer from congestion. It does, however, suffer from a seemingly high number of idiots in cars with pop-pop exhausts and a general preponderance to exceed to 30mph limit and/or indulge in creative parking,
I shudder to think what it would be like if there were cut-throughs.