[Closed] Which Super Fast Road Frame???

Use a neg rise stem on your Defy? A Defy vs TCR you really won't notice any difference in speed just from the geometry, aero wheels would be a bigger (though still marginal) benefit and stick some clip-on tri-bars to get a more aero position (get ones where the extensions are below the clamp to help get a lower position, like Pro Missile Evos but something cheaper probably...).

A 10mm longer stem and swap a couple of stem spacers from under the stem to above it...

That really is about all the difference between the Defy and TCR in geometry/fit. Great bikes, Giants "sportive" geometry is fortunately a little closer to their race geometry than many manufacturers though. Definitely don't start spending loads without trying my above suggestion first.

Besides, if you like that position, then you at least know should you upgrade in the future, you'll be fine on a TCR or similar. And your Defy composite frame is a very good frame worthy of upgrading in the future anyway.

I have no idea.

I'm just posting to commend your use of the word ' Which', rather than the grammatically incorrect & inexplicably popular 'What', often used in similar situations.

TCRs are great. I've ridden one (few years ago, mind) and like any 'race bike', it was a bit lively but pretty planted too. Good handling machine.

Anything marketed as a sportif/audax/etc bike will be pretty close to a full on race bike. The differences going to a racier bike are likely to be:
Shorter head tube so you can get the bars lower
Maybe longer top tube and stem to stretch you out more.
Shorter chainstays, shorter wheelbase, maybe a little more agile.

Of these things, only getting lower down, whilst remaining comfortable, will actually give you more speed. A race-oriented bike will be a little livelier, stiffer and maybe more manoeuvrable than your current ride but it won't go any faster in a straight line. May make you smile though.

If you really want to go faster, you'll be wanting some blingy lightweight aero wheels. They're magic 🙂

A 10mm longer stem and swap a couple of stem spacers from under the stem to above it...

Is the Planet-X N2A frame ruled out as a no go then from everyone?

Aero wheels really make a big difference, and what sort of depths are we talking 50mm? 100?

Any links to tri-bars that are lower than the handle bars...do you mean something like these?

I have a TCR0 (alloy) and a Defy Advanced SL. There is little to distinguish them when set up the same. What you probably noticed was an increase in steerer angle that quickens up the steering - or even shorter stem!

Commuted on the TCR this morning, rode 100km on the Defy Monday. The change in frame material is a bigger factor than the geometry.

Get a set of SLR-Aero wheels for the Defy. They are fantastic all round aero wheels that will add 0.5-1 mph to your speed. Remove any spacers and flip the stem (if you haven't already) or change to a longer one for a longer lower reach.

There is nothing "sportive" about the Defy geometry. It used to be known as race geometry a few years ago. There has been a trend to steeper head tube angles (73-73.5 degrees of late), but 72.5 is still race geometry.

Aero wheels really make a big difference, and what sort of depths are we talking 50mm? 100?

Aero wheels are the biggest fallacy around! Those telling you they make a big difference have either been seduced/conned themselves, or are trying to sell you some!

They only make any real difference when your average speeds are well into the mid 20mph zone, and that's average, not your cruising speed on the flat.

Tests have been done on aero vs non aero, and typically even the best aero wheels will make only a very slight difference at 25mph. Much less difference than a skin suit, tri bars or an aero helmet for instance (all of which are banned for use in road racing anyway). If your average speeds are under 20mph, stick with a decent set of non aero wheels and you'll be fine. Certainly don't go spending money on aero wheels thinking they'll make any difference at all!

And regarding the Planet X... You own a Giant... Giant are the number 1 in Carbon Fibre bicycle design and manufacture by a margin. Planet X are a small UK company that design stuff in the UK and then get another factory to make it for them, and have had known issues with poor(er) quality carbon frames in the past (not necessarily the case now) and aren't known for being the stiffest or the lightest frames... Am I making my point clear?

Oh and back on the aero wheels thing... Pro's use them on flat stages cos every tiny little advantage helps, no matter how small. But get onto a remotely hilly stage, and they're all on shallow rims.

Anyone watch the short (mainly) uphill TT in the Giro last week? Was funny seeing all these guys on TT bikes, decked out with shallow section rims and huge cassettes! Waaaaay different to a normal TT bike setup, but then the winning time of Nibali equated to only about a 15mph average speed, and down at those speeds, shallow section lightweight wheels and a good range of gears are more important than aero and close ratio cassettes!

and Mboy ruins his marketing speach by becoming the one whos been seduced by the marketing man 😉

Am I making my point clear?

And regarding the Planet X... You own a Giant... Giant are the number 1 in Carbon Fibre bicycle design and manufacture by a margin.

Oh and back on the aero wheels thing... Pro's use them on flat stages cos every tiny little advantage helps, no matter how small. But get onto a remotely hilly stage, and they're all on shallow rims.

Anyone watch the short (mainly) uphill TT in the Giro last week? Was funny seeing all these guys on TT bikes, decked out with shallow section rims and huge cassettes! Waaaaay different to a normal TT bike setup, but then the winning time of Nibali equated to only about a 15mph average speed, and down at those speeds, shallow section lightweight wheels and a good range of gears are more important than aero and close ratio cassettes!

mboy - would be nice to have some sort of evidence to back up your comments; or shall I just use you as a reference in future related discussions?

True, but the swooshing sound makes you feel faster 😉 . The 0.5-1 mph is based on speeds above 18 mph. My Defy is faster than my TCR, but it's almost certainly down to frame comfort, possibly position and perhaps only then, wheel choice.

And the comments on Giant vs. Planet X are spot on. Giant are a CMO for most of the big name carbon frame suppliers.

My Defy is faster than my TCR, but it's almost certainly down to frame comfort, possibly position and perhaps only then, wheel choice.

poor(er) quality carbon frames in the past (not necessarily the case now) and aren't known for being the stiffest or the lightest frames

Anyone watch the short (mainly) uphill TT in the Giro last week? Was funny seeing all these guys on TT bikes, decked out with shallow section rims and huge cassettes!

Most were on road bikes, some with aero bars (usually without elbow pads)...

But your general point is right.

To the OP, it really depends whether you want to be fast or feel fast.

My old CX bike with road tyres on and the stem flipped was barely any slower than my proper racy road bike. The proper road bike always felt much faster though...

I'd suggest trying out a more racy position (though you may need to work to it over time - drop the bars, fit a longer stem

And don't underestimate how much difference a good set of tyres (I always recommend Michelin Pro2/3/4s) can make to the feel and speed of a road bike.

CMO? Collateralized Mortgage Obligation?

I'd suggest trying out a more racy position (though you may need to work to it over time - drop the bars, fit a longer stem

And don't underestimate how much difference a good set of tyres (I always recommend Michelin Pro2/3/4s) can make to the feel and speed of a road bike.

I made my Defy Advanced racier by changing the bars for a ones with slightly more forward / lower position when in the drops, tried a 10mm longer stem but took that off again as felt a bit too stretched.

[img] [/img]

oooofffff that looks really nice.

mboy - would be nice to have some sort of evidence to back up your comments; or shall I just use you as a reference in future related discussions?

I'm out and about and on my mobile at the mo, but I've linked to a scientific report giving evidence of everything I've stated regarding the (relative lack of) benefit of aero wheels before. I'll try and find it again later and post the link again.

Most were on road bikes, some with aero bars (usually without elbow pads)...

Many were yeah. Some started off on TT bikes then swapped to road bikes as it got steeper! The TT in the tour of California (if anyone watched it) was more of the same madness, TT bikes with MTB cassettes and lightweight low section wheels!

My old CX bike with road tyres on and the stem flipped was barely any slower than my proper racy road bike. The proper road bike always felt much faster though...

There's a big difference between "feels" faster and "is" faster, and this just proves it. A CX bike on road tyres is probably 99% as fast as a road bike with the same rider on board. Remember guys, feel is subjective, and everyone has a different opinion on feel, but the clocks don't lie!

As for which superfast frame.....most of the Elite riders bikes seem quite quick to me

This is ultimately the point... It's ALL about the rider, not the bike!

I bought the bike 15 months ago not knowing much at all about road bike and only based on great magazine and online reviews. Guess I landed lucky then with the frame.

You did your research... Some reviews can be biased, but if you read 5 different reviews on the same product, and 4 of them say its a superb bit of kit, chances are it will be superb. Less lucky, more informed I'd say.

They still look damn good though

Oh I'm not denying that! A nice set of deep section rims can really make a bike look amazing! And that is mainly why they sell so well to amateurs... No bad thing in itself of course, just buy a set expecting a huge performance gain and you'll be disappointed.

Tests have been done on aero vs non aero, and typically even the best aero wheels will make only a very slight difference at 25mph. Much less difference than a skin suit, tri bars or an aero helmet for instance (all of which are banned for use in road racing anyway). If your average speeds are under 20mph, stick with a decent set of non aero wheels and you'll be fine. Certainly don't go spending money on aero wheels thinking they'll make any difference at all!

Aero helmets and skinsuits aren't banned for racing are they? Just need to comply to relevant standards, but as neither are as comfy as road alternatives they're not that popular. Still see riders using deeps on rolling stages, and some do so on mountain stages. Must say when I swapped to some Aeolus 50mm deeps they were a lot faster on the flat and downhill, but a bit of a slog up hill. It is absolutely a perceivable and indeed measurable difference though, and doesn't compromise comfort like all the other solutions.

And regarding the Planet X... You own a Giant... Giant are the number 1 in Carbon Fibre bicycle design and manufacture by a margin.

In what way? Serious question. They don't do the lightest, or the winningest, they [i]may [/i]produce the most, but Universal outsell Specialized by about 20:1 in the UK, I'd never correlate volume and quality!

Oh, all right...

[img] [/img]

Does that look too "sportive"?

And I don't live in perpetual fear of dropping it because some numpty triathelete decides they fancy having a go at crit racing

Which was why I bought the used TCR

They don't do the lightest

EDIT: CMO = contract manufacturing organization. Giant make carbon frames for almost every major manufacturer. Many of the top line frames; Trek Domane, Cannondale Supersix Evo etc are made in house and in the US, but the vast majority of carbon frames are made in Taiwan, and many by Giant. Merida make (and own) half of Specialized, but Giant still supply some of their frames.

Err, they do. My Defy shown above is an 800g frame. It's lighter than the TCR too and is the lightest frame that Giant make.

Ok, but the Cervelo R5Ca is lighter, as is the Trek Madone 7 series and the Cannondale Supersix Evo. Sure there are others too.

It's the lightest in their range, but not the lightest you can buy.

OK within about 50g of lightest (depending on size, of course). Add in fork, headset and stem cap variance and I can just about live with the difference 😉

It is a fantastic bike and feels like cheating, to be honest. The wheels are 1450g, rated as the best all-rounder aero at £1000, and were a £250 upgrade for this model. It seemed rude not too! My normal wheels are Ksyrium Elites, and as non-aero they also would be a good upgrade for the OP too.

OK within about 50g of lightest (depending on size, of course). Add in fork, headset and stem cap variance and I can just about live with the difference

It is a fantastic bike and feels like cheating, to be honest. The wheels are 1450g, rated as the best all-rounder aero at £1000, and were a £250 upgrade for this model. It seemed rude not too! My normal wheels are Ksyrium Elites, and as non-aero they also would be a good upgrade for the OP too.

I'm not denying any of that (although actually there are several sub-700g frames kicking around, but that's splitting hairs). Mboy said:

Giant are the number 1 in Carbon Fibre bicycle design and manufacture by a margin.

I'm just asking what metric is that by? Whilst they do fantastic bikes, and they are light, they are not the light[i]est[/i], nor the most aero etc. Seems a bit perverse to claim they're the best 'by a margin', no?

It wasn't a personal slur on your bike, you can stop being so defensive 😉

OK not the lightest - that Cervelo (which is a brand not a manufacturer 😈 ) is fantastically light and expensive! I'll raise you aero then 😉 the [url= http://www.winwithgiant.com/Propel_Advanced_SL-Envie_Advanced_Brochure.pdf ]Giant Propel[/url], which is really a squashed TCR with horizontal top tube. I considered one of these, but thought it wouldn't offer much above the TCR (same geometry), and is more expensive. So I went with just the wheels instead. My other reason for a Giant, was that they sponsor our club and it matches my jersey 😳 .

dunno - the gumph mboy spouted earlier sounds suspiciously like the gumph i got fed at a trade show for a particular brand.....

hook line and sinker.

I've noticed more than one person on here becoming an industry guru as soon as they land their first job in a bike shop....

😆

Oooh will keep an eye on this thread, I can't stop thinking about new road wheels at the minute! Current thoughts are between Reynolds Assault/Chinese carbon/RS 80 C50's. I've basically convinced myself I "need" deep section wheels despite being a climber....

I've recently splashed for a TCR Advanced SL frame and have been thoroughly impressed with the ride qualities. Stiff and quick to accelerate and surprisingly comfortable on our kwality roads.

I have over the years built up a literal shed load of old frames ranging from 531 steelies, a Pianrello alu, my old Ti TT frame and most recently, a just retired CF frame.

A friend thinks his Defy is a little slack for racing but based on my experience, you'll be pressed to notice a difference. As others have said, tweaking the geometry can make quite a lot of difference. Don't discount in line seat posts where possible, as they bring you forward and sharpen the seat angle up.

If you're going to regularly ride over 19mph then aero wheels can and do make a difference imo. The trade off is more investment for what can at times be a difficult to discern improvement; - deep section wheels can be a real handful in high cross winds for example.

However don't forget the bling / smile to your face factor which is difficult to put a price on.

I'd look at 30 - 60 mm deep CF wheels and treat them as a Sunday best / investment option. Tubs arguably give the best ride but certainly aren't the easiest wheels to live with when it comes to cost and maintenance.

A friend thinks his Defy is a little slack for racing

Reminds me of this:

http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/bikes/road/product/review-boardman-team-carbon-12-45675

Note the first comment is from someone know knows a bit about bikes 🙂

There's a bit of a myth about racing bikes needing to be super fast steering.

Scott Foil, end of

And medium Boardman geometry is identical to the TCR. The SM looks more like the Defy! 72.5 - 73 degree head angle and 43 mm of offset is race handling. More than 73 degrees is approaching track. Twitchy, but tiring.

Scott Foil, end of

What? Comfort?

End of the world?

clubber
A friend thinks his Defy is a little slack for racing

Reminds me of this:

http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/bikes/road/product/review-boardman-team-carbon-12-45675

Note the first comment is from someone know knows a bit about bikes

There's a bit of a myth about racing bikes needing to be super fast steering.

I don't doubt Mr B knows what he's talking about but that doesn't stop folk from having an opinion on what works for [i]them[/i].

I looked at the Defy but based upon the geometries of my current bikes, and what I wanted from a 'race' frame, the TCR had a better geometry [u]for me[/u].

I love spending money, especially other people's, but if Steveo wants to keep the wallet in check, there's possibly nothing to gain from changing frames.

OK not the lightest - that Cervelo (which is a brand not a manufacturer ) is fantastically light and expensive! I'll raise you aero then the Giant Propel, which is really a squashed TCR with horizontal top tube. I considered one of these, but thought it wouldn't offer much above the TCR (same geometry), and is more expensive. So I went with just the wheels instead. My other reason for a Giant, was that they sponsor our club and it matches my jersey

Again, wasn't questioning your logic for buying a Giant, you don't have to justify/defend it, was just disputing the claims they're the best 'by a margin'. IMO no brand is better than any other, it's all personal.

Scott Foil, end of

So much so they're reintroducing the Addict because it's err 'struggled' a bit?

You might need to do a power test and see what sort of wattage you are generating to get the optimum frame, then get some professional advice as to what they think will suit. It all depends what sort of average speed you are looking at attaining or whether you want something that can transfer short bursts of power best for sprinting though I guess its the former. Personally I'd look at Cipollini (big budget) or Dolan Ares (smaller budget) but I assume a lot will depend on your weight and power. Your height is an issue too if you are tall and have a broad chest increasing frontal area.

Pros manage to spend 6-7 hours on "race" bikes so all day comfort is as much about spending time getting your contact points in the right position as it is about geometry. I'm surprised people managed to ride 45 miles around the New Forest before sloping top tubes, enormous headtubes and "sportive" geometry...

the vast majority of carbon frames are made in Taiwan,

they're not.

but if Steveo wants to keep the wallet in check, there's possibly nothing to gain from changing frames.

I would agree that the incremental change to TCR geometry would be modest, unless he wants to drop the bars by up to 2cm (I have 2cm of spacers on my TCR). But the switch to a higher grade, lighter stiffer frame would be noticeable. Just not as noticeable as a really nice pair of wheels and a longer lower stem.

EDIT: looking at the OP's bike, I'd definitely flip the stem and lose at least 1.5cm of spacers. then go for a ride on the drops and see how it feels. My guess is that it will feel pretty racy already. Then go wheel hunting for something about 1400g and some nice race tyres. If the OP can't go lower on the bars, then forget TCR, it won't add anything.

aye making his current bike not fit him with a nice long stem would be excellent 😉

the vast majority of carbon frames are made in Taiwan,

they're not.

Email in profile if you would like some cover.

Thanks.

End of what? There's certainly better aero frames out there than the Foil if that's what you mean.

the vast majority of carbon frames are made in Taiwan,
they're not.

Trek, specialized, giant, cannondale, Merida, I'd say that's a majority right there!

Not all Trek. Must say I'd agree that by volume it's where most come from, but Brant (should) know more than most on here!

The vast majority of carbon frames come from China.

Very few come from Taiwan.

Brant are you able to give any comparisons on the N2A vs my Giant Defy? stiffer, lighter, sharper, etc?

Possibly not terribly objectively 😉

Possibly not terribly objectively

There's certainly some amusing "weights" quoted and we have fallen foul a couple of times by actually quoting "putting it on our scales and weighing it" weights, rather than something else.

There's some quite funny content on this page about "weight".

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/frame/2011-pinarello-dogma---2011-6394.html

Pinarello's catalog indicates that the Dogma weighs 950g. This weight is before paint and "mechanization", i.e. installation of BB shell, bottle bosses, etc. Once mechanized, a 53cm Dogma weighs 1210g.

This weight is before paint and "mechanization",

Lol. I reckon I could make a carbon frame that's under 400g*

* before addition of matrix, paint, mechanisation

This is what it looks like
[img] [/img]

thats taking the "non pedals quoted weight" a bit far 😉

i like the highly opinionated comments by some on here!

If it were me, i'd reccommend the storck scenero g2 for being a great all rounder if not a little racy in terms of geometry.

would i rate it as the best frame out there? course not! Lots of high end frames will ride great, be light and give you what you want.

The scenero rides better than many i've ridden but then i've not ridden all high end products out there.

thats taking the "non pedals quoted weight" a bit far

Because if they advertised their £3500 non-aero frame at 1250g people would laugh, and rightly so!

I have been quoted as saying that "bikes go as fast as you pedal them".

I don't ride a Planet X N2a, I ride a Planet X RT58. I love it. But I'm not a roadie.

Our proper roadies in the company ride RT57s, N2As or Mondos.

There's some quite funny content on this page about "weight".

I'd heard the rumours, but not seen it admitted in print! 😆

The Propel forgoes paint to keep the weight down, but I believe that the weight still includes ISP, carbon dropouts, BB insert etc... I guess paint could be viewed as structural.

As already mentioned above, all the high end bikes ride very well and just present different flavours of something very tasty. The OP has started with a fine bike and wants something that "feels" superfast. I'd start by adjusting the position.

My Giant Defy (Medium) came stock with a 100mm stem on a 54cm top tube. When flipped up with spacers, it would be a very relaxed position. I'm 5'10" and normal proportions, so switched to a 125mm flipped down stem, and with 0.5 cm of spacers, this mimics my racy (not really) TCR position. So, as I said before, adjust position first then if that isn't doing it on the "superfast" front, think about something with even more aggressive geometry.

I think it is ultimately a question of fit, not frame.

Regards the OP and his point about changing bikes/frames I wouldnt bother.

Put 2 different road bikes(with the same wheels/bars etc)in a wind tunnel and I'd bet the difference would be marginal.

The biggest effect on a bikes speed is the very un-aerodynamic rider sat on top.

Probably best off just spending money on lighter and faster rolling wheels and tyres.

Because if they advertised their £3500 non-aero frame at 1250g people would laugh, and rightly so!

I have a Ex-British Cycling academy frame(90's Dutch Concorde) I bought off ebay for about £50, Easton elite tubing which weigh 1300gms on my digital scales.

I can live with the extra weight for the money saved.

What the Op needs is a red bicycle as they are always the fastest.

The End.

is it alloy?

Defy's are cracking bikes, but I prefer the TCR. On the flat it was hard to split the two. On climbs the TCR 'felt' better, I put that down to a lower front end. And I knew the chainstays on the Defy were longer, so that played on my mind.
Forgive the hyper technical report, both great bikes for the 'punter racer' A pro tour rider might say different...might even mater to them.

I noticed Blanco used both TCRs and Defy's during the Paris - Roubaix which was nice.

on the aero wheels front, 4 weeks ago I put on my cosmics as my summer wheels (braccianos winter). Approx 0.7mph on average faster, used to average 17ish now late 18's for 2-3 hour loops. This is in the flat, but windy new forest.

Whether I just pedal faster because of the lovely sound of them I have no idea, but Garmin tells me I'm quicker. Everything else is identical as I swap the tyres/cassette etc...

Propel is fastest...

http://www.winwithgiant.com/

If you want a great all rounder that you can convert to TT duties then go for a Cervelo S1 they just seem to encourage you to ride faster! And surprisingly comfortable too

on the aero wheels front, 4 weeks ago I put on my cosmics as my summer wheels (braccianos winter). Approx 0.7mph on average faster, used to average 17ish now late 18's for 2-3 hour loops. This is in the flat, but windy new forest.

any change in the weather, i find 1-2mph just when it is a bit warmer, another 1-2mph from riding in the sun rather than at night...

It is a [i]bit[/i] warmer....maybe it's that then and not the wheels...

I'm buying a Giant then. They are clearly the best in the world 😉

I noticed Blanco used both TCRs and Defy's during the Paris - Roubaix which was nice.

And the Defy came second overall - close but not won a major yet. The TCR and propel have, however. Not that it matters for the Masters race I'm missing as I type this 😉

Climbing on my Defy feels the same as the TCR. But as I said. they are both mine, and both set up the same. Wheelbase looks almost the same too when they are next to each other.

Has no one suggested a bike fit? 😀

But seriously, it'll make more difference than a new bike.

I've just built up an N2a with full Ultegra and RS80 deep sections, very very pleased, very stiff but every ounce of effort you put in goes to propelling you forward. Most of the crit racing I do averages 26+mph and I feel a benefit from deep section wheels
Have ridden a TCR and yes it's great great bike, but my reasoning was that with some of the idiots that have come to road racing in the past year I've seen more crashes in 4 months than I'd probably seen in 10yrs! So the moto don't ride what I can't afford to replace became important, replacement TCR frames are £1400 ish N2A £799.
Hopefully it won't see tarmac any time soon but all 3 of the races I've done in the last 2 weeks have had crashes!

I'm building this up, basically a TCR Frame but a lot better price and finish

[IMG] [/IMG]

10 out of 10 in cycling weekly the other week too, apparently blew his strava times apart on it so quite excited to get it finished. Frameset retails at £1600 ish

Most people are posting with images of Defy "Advanced" with the mahoosive headtube, my Defy is just the "Composite" model. What are differences.....just so I'm on the same page....I got lost a while back 🙂

clubber
This weight is before paint and "mechanization",

Lol. I reckon I could make a carbon frame that's under 400g*

* before addition of matrix, paint, mechanisation

This is what it looks like

[img] [/img]

Brilliant 😆

On the subject of Cervelos, one of my LBS tried their hardest to get me to buy a P3 but I refused because the world and his goat ride them. Ended up with a mid range basic Argon which IS my fastest bike.

Oh and I gather the P5 is a bit of a porker on the scales.

Anyhoo back on topic. I think we've come to a conclusion that Steveo's current frame is OK but there is scope for tweaking the geometry. Definitely worth trying a lower stem and also different lengths.

A bike fit might help but I'd also suggest riding with some old hand roadie mates and see if they spot anything obvious with your pedalling.

Stem now dropped 20mm & bars tilted a little forward than before and probably nearer level. Out on it tomorrow.

So what the difference in the Advanced to Composite, other than the shape?

davidtaylforth - Member

Has no one suggested a bike fit?

But seriously, it'll make more difference than a new bike.

I did, and recommended a power test too.
There are only so many ways to buy speed, sooner or later you have to stand on the scales and look in the mirror....

Canyon aeroroad?

Speed can have many variables, I am quite a big bloke so the aeroroad would suit me, being quite a stiff frame. If I wanted allday speed i would probably flip the stem up, against wanting speed for an hour or 2.

don't ride what I can't afford to replace became important, replacement TCR frames are £1400 ish N2A £799.

Planet X have a good crash replacement policy too 😉

Ktm doesnt look much like a tcr to my untrained eye....