I've had the Rotor 3D24 (24 = shimano BB) for about 2 years I think, they've been totally forgettable...by that I mean I can't tell any difference from 5700 105. Not sure on weight, not so fussed. I personally love the look of 'em (especially the newer graphics) and can't fault 'em at all.
Are those rotor cranks any good? Seem heavy compared to SRAM. Have to add in rings and special tool increase price another 130eur. Which rotor version would fit a non bb30 frame? I currently have 10 speed force.
I have Rotor MTB cranks and they are super solid, easy to fit and everything you could want from a crank.
All Rotor cranks can fit a non-BB30 frame. Just use the right BB and/ or spacers which are available also from Rotor.
The 3D+ are ~450g for a 170 with double spider fitted (no rings or BB). SRAM Red BB30 is what? 605g for the old style with rings and 560g for the Exograms with rings? Rotor 3D+ isn't heavy by any means.
Add the ~170g P2M and it isn't super light but not heavy either compare to even a light crank and other type of Power Meter. I want to use Xpedo R-Force Ti (170g) and Vectors are 350g with pods so that is the same weight overall if I went pedal based instead. I probably wouldn't use a lighter crank than Rotor/ SRAM Red so again no real difference their either. Stages units are light but the cranks are not so light, especially on a BB30 frame if I have to add an adapter to Dura-Ace etc. Rotor InPower on a 3D+ crank is probably actually one of the lightest BB30 option for me but it seems daft not to have proper total power measured for £50 more and a small weight penalty 😀
No PM ships with rings included in the price as far as I can see (Stages you even need to buy the chainset too) so you don't especially *need* to order rings for a P2M for it to be comparably good value.
Seems decent to me 😀
and everything you could want from a crank.
apart from the aesthetics, which shouldn't count, but still does 🙂
Subjective though, I like them. Look good on some bikes. Much like Shimano ones, they look good on some bikes, rubbish on others.
Looks wise I'd choose 'em all day long over the new 4 bolt Shimano stuff, do not like at all.
I love the look of Rotor cranks too but they seem to have a bad rep in the roady world where they are seen as disposable OEM parts from older Cervelos 🙄 😆 The cranks themselves look great and the newer ones have more subtle graphics. TBH, I'll be using black crankskins over whatever crank I go with to keep the branding on parts to a minimum
Subjective though
of course
the arms sort of remind me of caramba cranks, was more the dodgy graphics on them, which as DanW says is now toned down
Looks wise I'd choose 'em all day long over the new 4 bolt Shimano stuff, do not like at all.
i hated them when they came out, certainly grows on you though, subjectively of course
the arms sort of remind me of caramba cranks, was more the dodgy graphics on them
Ha ha, that's not fair on Rotor! 😆
The old style Rotor cranks were a bitch to get protective tape on to, but that has to be their only negative
Whilst I really like the current Shimano cranks and don't like Rotor. Puts me off a P2M as well!
They bolt on to SRAM/ Campagnolo/ FSA/ Specialized/ Cannondale/ Lightning cranks as well as Rotor. I think other cranks like Tune and some others also share the same splines as other models so they have all bases bar Shimano covered really, at least on the road side.
The Lightning cranks have always been tempting, I see P2M aren't supplying them now though.
Have we done Pioneer EU prices down? Have to supply your own DA chainset I think, but [Url= https://www.powermeter24.com/en/detail/index/sArticle/870 ]look good for €800[/url]. Cheapest proper double power meter now?
Do you need the Pioneer head unit too or is it ANT+? Seem to remember it doing ANT+ but you need the Pioneer head unit for the high resolution stuff.
Exactly. Bit like Powertap, standard metrics via ANT+, their own head unit for the detailed stuff.
The Lightning cranks have always been tempting, I see P2M aren't supplying them now though.
I imagine the spline interface is the same as for the S-Works?
Have we done Pioneer EU prices down? Have to supply your own DA chainset I think, but look good for €800. Cheapest proper double power meter now?
I must admit I got very excited when the email came through from PM24....
EUR 1400 for L/R though. It looks like you buy the left arm first (EUR 900 for D-A) and "upgrade" to dual side with the DS upgrade kit (another EUR 900) or buy the set for EUR 1400. Even though it is a high end price the true dual sided measurement and wealth of metrics justifies it IMO. I think Pioneer could overtake the high end quite easily
i thought S-Works cranks were just rebadged Lightnings?
so Pioneer have essentially gone after Stages with a left arm, plus you can upgrade the right at a later date?
i thought S-Works cranks were just rebadged Lightnings?
Basically yes, but they tweaked the design a bit to get rid of the creaking and a few failures IIRC. I'd imagine the spider is the same though.
so Pioneer have essentially gone after Stages with a left arm, plus you can upgrade the right at a later date?
It's what it looks like, with the addition of a lot of funky additional things you can measure.
P2M still has it place as the cheapest "total power" PM but Pioneer really look to have a good thing going on IMO
Still don't agree that P2M is the cheapest when you factor in all the other 'bits' you need for having a fully working system. I'm costing it in the region of £800-900 total to upgrade my bike to a P2M system (rotor cranks, new bb, new rings, tool to fit, and p2m). That is comparable to the to price I can pick up a pair of vectors from zee Germans. And ballpark to the quarq prices too. Happy to be proved wrong of course if I'm making a mistake?
I just don't know....birthday coming soon...I'm now thinking vectors, mainly as Garmin HQ is down the road and I know they are great with warranty support and it should be perfect with the 1000.
Why do you need new rings and BB? If you're including the price of the P2M tool have you included a decent torque wrench and crow foot for the Vector 😉
I'd really like a go on Vector/Pioneer just to see how wonky I am... Realistically though, can you change and would it actually improve you? Jury seems out still.
Still nothing to match the convenience of Stages if you want to run decent Shimano (eg XTR). Left only, some moisture ingress issues that are generally fixable but light and innocuous.
Current BB is GXP. Assuming rings from force won't fit so need the praxxis ones (with quarq I should be able to re-use)
Vector 2's come with the crow foot (I think....) and I've got a torque wrench, though if you believe the installation vid on Garmins site you can just do it up 'tight'
Still it means the P2M isn't hugely different in price
And yes, cheap stages is confuddling the matter.
The other things in the vectors favour is swapping them around between bikes (swapping chainsets isn't ideal, as BB's are different on frames)
Still don't agree that P2M is the cheapest
Well a £400 Stages Pm is expensive when you factor in buying a crank, tools, BB and rings 🙄 😀
Costing up P2M for me is £632 (P2M spider only- £507, Force cranks and rings- £125, no special tools required). Reasonably light and total power measurement rather than single sided. Pretty much the same price as Stages or Rotor INpower when factoring in buying the crank so it looks like an easy choice.
Also worth noting the cheaper Quarq PM's don't give you access to L/R data and are pretty heavy.
All of the decent options appear much of a muchness, just preference as to what appeals to an individual.
That said the potential for Vectors to give inconsistent readings is enough for me to discount them. "Accuracy" doesn't matter but consistency is everything. They would probably be fine but I don't want the worry
Well a £400 Stages Pm is expensive when you factor in buying a crank, tools, BB and rings
Not if you already have those parts....for starting from scratch you are right, for an upgrade which I imagine is where most people are, not so much
By that logic, if you already have a crank them a P2M spider only is £507 at the moment.
I think the Pioneer is unique in being able to use it as 2 power meters isn't it? You can chuck the LH crank on one bike, the RH on another, or pair them up. Quite good if you want to swap cranks about between bikes I guess - shove the LH crank on for a race or whatever.
Any reason you can't run a Dura Ace LH crank on an XTR RH one?
Any reason you can't run a Dura Ace LH crank on an XTR RH one?
Q-Factor would be the main reason I think
I think the Pioneer is unique in being able to use it as 2 power meters isn't it?
I think the DS can't be used by itself, it needs the NDS sensor
I hope you Stages users are all factoring in 2 CR2032 batteries a month and the assosiciated cost to the environment of these baby killing demons 😛
Was disappointed to read the other day that SRM won't be releasing their rechargeable PM in the foreseeable future.
I hope you Stages users are all factoring in 2 CR2032 batteries a month
The FW update seemed to stop any battery drain issues for me, I use my Stages 7 days a week and the battery life is acceptable (don't even remember when I fitted the last one). My Garmin throws up a low battery error long before the battery dies, while the Stages android app still reports plenty of life.
I think the DS can't be used by itself, it needs the NDS sensor
[url= http://pioneer-cyclesports.com/us-en/products/sensor/sgy-pm910h2.html ]The blurb on their website[/url] implies (well states) you can use either part as a separate power meter.
SRM have lost it IMO. They seem to give the impression they're doing you a favour by letting you use their products. Zero innovation, and yet constantly suggest they're the best thing going.
its quite amazing how SRM have sat and twiddled their thumbs, they've watched an industry build around them, and done nothing, well apart from release the PC8, and who cares about that when you can get all that data and more on a Garmin
Any reason you can't run a Dura Ace LH crank on an XTR RH one?
just checked, doesn't work,
this is on a Cube LTD Pro 29er
SLX Crank Arm on the left, Stages 7900 on the right
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Interesting. Massive different in Q-factor, surprised at that.
A road double is usually 145-150mm and an MTB crank 170-175mm so there's roughly 1cm difference in Q-Factor each side. I had an XT crank that was over 180mm so the difference can be even bigger
The blurb on their website implies (well states) you can use either part as a separate power meter.
That's really impressive. More than justifies the extra cost in yet another way.
Yeah, touch wood, my Stages has lasted 1 month without a new battery on the latest firmware
I think the Pioneer is unique in being able to use it as 2 power meters isn't it?
I *think* you can do that with a pair of vectors as well?
@Dan, if I had cranks that worked with P2M yes, but I don't as per my post above, hence having to fork out for those as well, meaning the extra cost to upgrade.
Cost for me to upgrade my 10 speed sram force re-using what I have where possible:
Stages = £360ish, P2M = £850ish, Quarq = £850ish, Vectors = £850
What I am heading toward is P2M SRAM Force 22 which seems like a similar upgrade to you. As in my post above that comes out ~£630 for everything. Sure P2M won't be for everyone but that seems pretty exceptional value for a "dual" sided PM and chainset that you can get L/R data out of (unlike low end Quarq). Vector 2 would be next on the list
I *think* you can do that with a pair of vectors as well?
Nah, fairly sure the LH one is the 'master'.
I'm thinking Powertap P1 at the moment. I like the idea of Vectors, as I've got an Edge 1000, but it seems all the pedalling dynamics stuff is interesting at face value and nothing more. I'm not sure the extra cost and faff versus P1s is worth it.
I *think* you can do that with a pair of vectors as well?
Nah, fairly sure the LH one is the 'master'.
I had a bit of a faff adding a new pedal to my existing pedal, and at one point I did seem to end up with the RH one working independently. So maybe it is possible.
Each pedal has an unique ANT ID and you associate one with the other using the Vector pedal app. You then use the RH pedal ANT ID when you pair with the head unit. So maybe the RH is the master.
FWIW, right now, I'd go P2M. But then I like the Rotor cranks.
Well first ever issue with the Vectors yesterday. Unclipped at a junction towards the end of my ride, then when I clipped back in and rode off the reported power was seriously low. Noticed the power balance values had gone to 0%-100% so it had lost the power from the left pedal 👿
Not had a chance to investigate yet but all a bit curious.
sounds a bit like my power balance at the moment 😆
Interesting, which one did it drop, the new one or the old? (I can't remember which is the "master")
As we're talking about problems I rode with a guy yesterday (TOB stage so lots of standing about) who was having major problems with his new Rotor inPower PM, he was averaging something dumb like 800W for the ride haha!
I suggested it could actually be the Garmin as he'd recently updated it but he's yet to experiment as obviously, he only owns one Garmin! He's talking about sending the whole lot back and getting a P2M, said he'd fancied one anyway but was won over on the Rotor as he could get it straight away. He was obviously very happy to hear I've had no problems with my P2M and that battery last about a year...
Was the older left one. Reported error code is a comms failure between left and right pedal. Right one is the master. Sounds like the solution is to take battery out and reset it all 😕
Sounds like there are a lot of issues with the 3.5 firmware. Bit annoying really as I only upgraded because I had to in order to pair the pedals.
Yeah that sucks, do you ride with balance on the screen all the time? I'd kinda feel like I had to on these "dual" PM's just as a guard against spurious readings.
It's on my second page view, mostly as I've been playing around with cleat shims and was curious to know what it did to my power balance.
Spotted all the pedalling dynamics stuff come up in the summary too, power phases etc.. Looks interesting and keep meaning to have a rummage about the data but no idea what I'd actually do with it!
My power balance is 52/48 now, the thing is the P2M is utterly basic so I'm always left wondering whether my left leg is actually stronger or my pedalling action is just better/smoother from my right leg. Personally I "feel" like my right leg is just more efficient and kicks around the bottom of the stroke better. It's always my left knee that's wonky/sore too so is this 'cos its working harder or just as it's crap...
It'd certainly be interesting messing about with their Pedalling Dynamics but from what I've read it's completely half arsed on Connect?
Also, new PM review on DCR.
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/09/favero-depth-review.html
BePro sounds pretty good.
You might know that P2M isn't measuring right/left independently, so it's just a guess at left right based on total power using some modelling around typical pedal strokes. Wouldn't really be picking up on some of the subtleties you've described. Would need something like the Vectors for this.
I've not gone near Garmin Connect for a few years now. Can't still be as bad as it was... can it?
Ya, it's a poor guess at a left/right balance based on the 12-6 o'clock position, basically the only reason I want a go on Vectors is just to figure out which way I'm wonky, at the end of the day though it'd just be an interesting exercise opposed to a useful one.
Has there been any news when stages will do a xt m8000 crankarm?
I know how I'm wonky. It's interesting to be able to see the effects of changes to address that wonkiness 🙂
My left leg is about 1cm longer than my right, and power balance is fairly consistently 45/55. Trying just a 3mm shim under the right cleat and it seems to be more around 48/52 with overall power up a tiny bit too. Quite surprising really.
Has there been any news when stages will do a xt m8000 crankarm?
just use a reduced XT/XTR M780/M785/M980/M985
That is interesting! Did you notice the length discrepancy yourself or through a bike fit? I've tried measuring mine myself using the legs at 90degrees against a wall method and they look bang on...probably aren't though haha!
It's incredibly helpful the Vectors have decided to crap out while you're experimenting 🙄
Been mentioned in a few physio sessions over the years, but I was mostly running at the time. Just having some more physio for a back problem and it got mentioned again and the therapist recommended trying some cleat shims.
Hopefully it's just a minor hiccup with the Vectors. Never had any problem with the single sided ones, or before the 3.5 upgrade.
P1s are top of my list still I reckon, do like the ease of swapping, and although the geekery of Vectors appeals I'm just not that sure it's really of much use (cleat tweaking aside).
Seems a bit lame that Vector/BePro want a couple of rides to 'bed in' post fitting. Not much use if you swap often.
I'd definitely go for P2M... or Quarq... or P1... or Pioneer... 😕
Haha! I want a Shimano chainset, because I like the aesthetics. P1s are easier than Pioneer to move between bikes, and I can get them at trade price. Wins it for me I reckon. Ask in a week and it'll change.
Ask in a week and it'll change.
... and no matter how many people are fan bois of any one PM they all seem to have their "quirks"
Yep. Unsurprising I guess, otherwise we'd have a hugely dominant player. Successive new arrivals appear to look like the perfect solution, then something lets them down (looking at you still 4iiii).
Na, you need an SRM in your life Njee...even with the absurd price and a non user replaceable battery you can't deny it's a work of art compared to most PM's! Weirdly I like the look of the SRM Dura-Ace over the standard crank.
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Bargain at £2000 😀 Love the 7900 era and more old school SRM's too
Just swapped back to Shimano from Keo, would have Vectors in a flash if they were big S cleat compatible.
Where's the best deal for Vectors at the moment, £860 @ bikediscount.de seems pretty good?
Nice little update if you've discounted Pioneer because of frame interference issues.
Where's the best deal for Vectors at the moment, £860 @ bikediscount.de seems pretty good?
£861 at Powermeter24 too so sounds like the best price they are likely to be. PM24 and BikeDiscount have both been great to deal with so take your pick 😀
Well the vectors behaved impeccably on today's ride. Hopefully just a glitch.
Out of interest, on a couple of hours of z2/z3 with a few hill sprints thrown in...
L/R balance was 47/53
Pedal smoothness 21%-26%
Torque effectiveness 74%-80%
Right avg power phase 353-220
Right avg power phase peak 68-120
Left avg power phase 13-214
Left avg power phase peak 63-113
I really must find out what most of that means! 🙂
Useless wivooot pitchuurez!
That's just from the 810. I think I need to load it into garmin connect to get the pretty cycling dynamics pictures.
Hit go on some Powertap P1s... Out of stock until November! Sure things will have changed by then as well!
Blimey, must be pretty popular. Trade price?
Some more info on the Pioneer...
Not a bad deal, and being able to upgrade to a dual sided later on is a nice way of spreading the cost a bit. Still it now looks a bit pricey compared to some of the competition (e.g. P2M.)
Don't actually know the trade price, £700ish I'm guessing.
Pioneer does look good, not sure I'd go for the single leg option though. If nothing else just buy a double and split it with a friend
880 quid at Wiggle, which is actually pretty good.
Clever Training looked cheapest with the DCR discount if you've got a U.S. shipping address. At the end of the day it's just a way of quantifying my mediocrity because I like data, I can wait!
If I only had the left side Id have a voice inside my head constantly saying "buy the right side, buy the right side"
Another hat in the ring...
Alpha testing so wouldn't hold my breath.
Has anyone tried the INPower unit yet?
Is it any good?
Broke last night, ordered a cheap rival stages from Merlin. Confident in merlins customer service in case I have problems, I'll train with left side only next season and if I'm really getting the benefit and using the numbers I'll buy one of the dual sided pedal systems that I can swap between bikes. Hopefully in 12 months or so prices of dual systems will have come right down
By that time you may well be able to get the other side of the stages and pair them up!
Who knows! Certainly interesting watching all the developments. Bet they drop the prices further in the next month or so now I've actually bought a power meter.
Didn't seem to be any real news out of Eurobike/Interbike, so not sure.
Had to warranty my ultegra stages got new one this morning of the new type. The battery cover has finally done away with those terrible tabs that kept breaking off. It's a new system & you place the battery in the cover before you put the cover on. It's way more streamlined too. The connection points for the battery in its housing seem much deeper & further away from the door. FWIW I always found the problems with my stages wasn't water ingress but the door & those tabs when replacing batteries, they were top of the 'made of cheese' league.
I recently got a stage gxp from merlin £365 - buzzin...why spend more?