[Closed] Which power meter - Stages or Power2Max?

Froome testing new prototype Stages at the Tour ([url= http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/froome-testing-stages-prototype-power-meter-at-tour-de-france ]here[/url]). Maybe they'll get it right with version 2.0.

No one appearing to rock dual sided though.

Market seems to have gone a bit quiet after a raft of announcements. Not much out there on PowerTap P1, 4iiii, BePro etc which have all released.

Got my 4i now. Gives similar readings to stages and kickr, so I'm assuming they're all roughly right. I think 4i are still having some production, battery, and accuracy issues. Though it does strike me as a bit odd that only some people have battery issues when in theory you've got identical electronics in each device.

Same story with Stages though, wasn't it?

Nah, everyone had issues with Stages 🙂

Stages X9 and Rival GXP dropped to €499 at stage euro shop

£352

(£255 in the US)

my interest in to the power market, my have been upped with the P1

P1 does look interesting but read they don't use standard Keo cleats, which would be a bit annoying if you use the same shoes on different bikes.

The BePro looks worth of attention too. DCR review due shortly.

Do you think the stages are worth a punt at that reduced price? I've been hanging on to see if I could get a decent deal on vectors without much luck.

I've been put off by several friends with utterly woeful reliability. Personally I'd not buy one. I think we'll see another round of price cuts and new products in the next few months. The problem is that that's always about to happen, so when do you jump off?!

Wife and I have had stages now for over a year, I know that because mine decided to not calibrate properly after 13 months. No hesitation or issues from stages new crank in lbs within a couple of weeks. Had the reported battery issues with both arms but new doors and being sensible about not spraying the power meter with hose when washing, not had any issues within the last 6 months. Both used nearly daily.

Ultegra's are down to £399 - quidco cashaback on Merlin Cycles

I find it hard to see past the quarq riken tbh. £640 for a tried and tested system that measures both legs, and I have heard nothing but good things about the latest ones. Mine tracks very well with a couple of powertaps I have. It is always about 3 watts higher as you would expect. I have done a fair few thousand miles on it now without issue.

no issues with my GXP stages, had it well over a year now, well i say no issues, the battery life is short, but it is stood a lot as i don't use the MTB as much as my road bike, but batteries are pennies anyway and i don't see that as an issue

my Powertap on the road bike has been back twice in a year, id happily replace it with a Stages

iamconfusedagain - [geeky weirdo] Have you ever stuck both PM's on a bike and compared the power readings at the start of the life of a chain/cassette and then again at the end? I often wonder if we'd actually see a measurable difference? My chain and cassette is ****ed on the mileage bike again and I've semi convinced myself I can feel it after riding the race bike at the weekend...(it's in my head but is it......)[geek]

Where is the Quarg £650? Looking on usual sites is closer to 800ish

Probably been mentioned somewhere in the last 17 pages, but P2M BOR cranks (and some FSA) are now £475 (same price as Stages 6700 from merlin and a 5800 chainset).

Not sure whether to pull the trigger and find out quite how poor my Watt's are* or whether to hold off and see if this really is the start of power meters becoming affordable across the board, if they'd drop down to ~£500 consistently I'd be tempted**.

*OTOH I made it to 320W on a ramp test last night on Trainerroad before it ran out, need to try it again on Thursday with a higher initial estimate and see, so maybe I'm not so bad (*0.73 and /95 is equivalent to 2.5w/kg).
**the tart in me doesn't want miss-matched cranks

Update on my XTR stages replacement, and all is good especially since last firmware install. Went to check one of my ultegra's ones that hasn't been used in a while as this is sometimes where I have had battery draining issues (when crank has been idle). No problems picked up and calibrated straight away.

Didn't find that cheap quarg and from what I read it is not true left/right balance either so no better than a single sided device (unless I read the wrong link...) unless you go for the (even) more expensive version.

Are those BOR cranks any good though? And you need to factor in chainring costs

My mouse is hovering over a rival stages for £375 from merlin.

I wish they hadn't put rival on it though - why couldn't they just leave it as sram?

£640 + chainrings

http://www.cyclepowermeters.com/quarq-riken-al-gxp-3230-p.asp?variantid=3234

It's mounted on the spider so it is measuring left and right power, but it's only measuring it in total, an amount of power is used to push the rising leg back up, so pedal based systems can generate far more data (like a Wattbike can) on where the imbalance is. You could in theory have a weaker left leg both up an down, but Quark/SRM/P2M would show an even split between the legs as all it sees is the right leg compensating by pushing down harder to lift the left, then lifting itself up compensating for the lesser push from the left leg, so the right and left power strokes are even even if the legs aren't (or it might show a difference when there isn't one).

Are those BOR cranks any good though? And you need to factor in chainring costs

Didn't find that cheap quarg and from what I read it is not true left/right balance either so no better than a single sided device (unless I read the wrong link...) unless you go for the (even) more expensive version.

Didn't read it wrong, but misunderstood.

The only power meters that truly measure both sides are those with two entirely independent sets of strain gauges - Pioneer, Vector, P1 etc. Whilst the Quarq (not Quarg) plus P2M, SRM etc are measuring total power (not merely doubling the left output a la Stages) because the sensors are all on the RH side they can't [i]actually[/i] tell the difference between pulling up with your right foot and pushing down with your left.

Ride around with one leg clipped in with a P2M and you'll get a 97%:3% L:R split or something, it picks up the power used to 'lift' the pedal if you're not clipped in. Still a lot better than only having one side.

iamconfusedagain - [geeky weirdo] Have you ever stuck both PM's on a bike and compared the power readings at the start of the life of a chain/cassette and then again at the end? I often wonder if we'd actually see a measurable difference? My chain and cassette is ****ed on the mileage bike again and I've semi convinced myself I can feel it after riding the race bike at the weekend...(it's in my head but is it......)[geek]

I have never noticed a difference. Like you I check this kind of thing 🙂 You can see a change when you clean up a mucky chain, at least a couple of watts.

DC Rainmaker review of Powertap P1 pedals. Short version - he really likes them.

[url= http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/08/powertap-p1-pedals-review.html ]http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/08/powertap-p1-pedals-review.html[/url]

he like them as it seems despite all his knowledge and tech nounce he's hamfisted and likes the fact you can switch them easily,

i cracked a polar pod once when installing, so yes it makes the P1's less hassle than the other pedal options on the market,

but installing a bb and a cranks is basic basic stuff, on par with pedals, which surely makes Quarq/Stages/Power2Max/SRM as easy to fit,

Still bizarre it's not a standard Keo cleat. Wonder why they did that? Doubt there would be any patent issues. Would put me off as I have 2 pairs of shoes across three bike, all with Keo cleats and pedals.

Yeah, that's what puts me off too - I've 3 pairs of shoes and keos on 4 bikes. I'd have to have a specific pair of shoes to go with the P1s.

Dirtyrider - I think it's more the speed of switching between bikes rather than just installation. I bet I can change pedals faster than I can change a crankset. I've got a P2M and I've never considered moving it across bikes (plus it wouldn't fit - different BB standards).

beej, it would be a faff, but changing the pedals, would be cheaper than fitting 4 power meters across 4 bikes.
Which I think is part of their strategy.

beej, it would be a faff, but changing the pedals, would be cheaper than fitting 4 power meters across 4 bikes.
Which I think is part of their strategy.

True, but if an 'average' shed consists of, or at least a selection of:

Training bike
Race bike
TT bike
CX bike
XC bike

Then 4 probably have 172.5mm cranks and 1 175mm.
3 have road pedals, 2 have mountainbike
3 might share the same gearing at a push.

There isn't really a universal solution* unless you're tall enough to use 175mm cranks on the road and use MTB pedals, in which case XTR Stages would be a shoe in. Otherwise I'd say stages and pedals are pretty similar in terms of fitting faffage and compatibility (assuming you're happy to adopt shimano, or SRAM (or maybe FSA?) 24mm cranks across the board).

*direct power measurement, so not including the Newton, but that doesn't work off road anyway.

I'm sorely tempted by the X9 and 6700 cranks, at the sale prices even with buying new cranks for bikes they don't currently fit it looks like good VFM.

As a slight aside, Im off to Florida in a couple of weeks time and have been thinking about getting a power meter whilst I'm out there.

Are there deals to be had buying in the states? Can one simply order stuff to a hotel in the same country and not incur any additional costs?

I think someone said stages USA site has old ultegra and sram options for ~£250. Not sure I'd want to be the wrong side of the atlantic for watrenty though.

Most worrying about the DCR review of the P1 is how shit his bike looks!

[img] [/Img]

Spacer and saddle position WTF?!

Always think his bikes look shit, thought it was maybe a demo but can't be.

Tri ist ain't he. [insert hate]

Most worrying about the DCR review of the P1 is how shit his bike looks!

*like me f'rinstance 😛

I think someone said stages USA site has old ultegra and sram options for ~£250. Not sure I'd want to be the wrong side of the atlantic for watrenty though.

Shimano options out of stock, only SRAM X9 and Rival GXP's on Stages Webstore, some shops might have stock though i guess

Always think his bikes look shit, thought it was maybe a demo but can't be.

his 2015 gear list, he lists a Giant Defy, he could have switched though, would look fine with the correct front when and the stem slamming

http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/05/2015-swimbikerun-gear-list.html

I think he is freakishly tall. Looks like a large frame too.

Yeah it does, but even so... He's obviously trying to do a triathlon position on a road bike - saddle pushed right forward.

Definitely one for a Defy or sommat with similar geometry.

Moar, this one is very interesting! Wonder what the £ will be?

http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/08/preview-watteam-powerbeat.html

I had a bike fit a couple of years ago and the guy measured the smoothness (or lack of) of my pedal stroke across the 4 quadrants. The data was displayed real time so I was able to instantly see the effect of dragging across the bottom, or kicking over the top of the pedal stroke etc.. It struck me that this could be a useful winter training tool to run alongside TrainerRoad; a continual nagging, live reminder, to smooth the pedal stroke.

Will any of the power meters (though it is the P1 I'm particularly interested in) that measure L/R power output the data real-time to a graph like this and will they do that at the same time as sending the data to the likes of TR?

[img] [/img]

Check out Garmin's Pedalling Dynamics, it's along those lines.

I think the Pioneer one with it's custom head unit probably comes closest though in terms of that graphical representation.

I don't think anything will relay it in real time at the moment. Maybe one to post on the TrainerRoad forum. They're pretty good at responding to posts.

Thanks I'll have a look into the Pioneer, though it's data on screen/computer that I'm after rather than head unit. Regarding TR, it hadn't occurred to me that it might be 3rd parties that exploit the data. Interesting...I think I will ping TR a message.

And whatever Garmin have to offer they can shove up their arse! Garmin Connect is an embarrassment and if that's the best they can do after all these years then God knows what sort of a hash they'll make delivering their Peddling Dynamics data 🙄

Cheap SRAM Rival GXP Power2Max (172.5mm Compact Only)

http://www.power2max.de/europe/en/Produkt/favorites-en/summer-sale-power2max-classic-sram-rival-2/

Just picked up a RH pedal to pair with my LH Vector S pedal. It's not my main PM so a single sided has been fine, but noticed Canyon were doing them for 380 quid and it seemed rude not to! A quick 5 minutes to install. A little bit of messing about with pairing the LHS and RHS pedals as they were at different firmware versions, but still pretty straightforward.

Had a quick spin and all seems well. Going to have a play with the cycling dynamics stuff later.

Definitely one of the plus points for me of the Vector S, being so simple to upgrade to a proper dual sided PM.

Cheap SRAM Rival GXP Power2Max

must have missed that one 🙁

I'm still faffing about trying to decide - one of the major draws for me of the vector system is the upgrade. Likely I will finally break one night after a few glasses of wine and just buy one of those discounted stages.. though I really like the quarg riken and my cranks are starting to look tired....hmmmm...

got a discounted stages from merlin 4 weeks ago.
400 notes...very happy with it 🙂

I'd get the Quark over the Stages. The price is tempting and I know quite a few people who brought a Stages, I don't know many who are still using them though! Having said that, plenty on here who are happy with theirs.

Quark not Quarg 🙂

Do the 10 speed ones work with 11 speed setups?

Quarq.

Not Quarg or Quark.

Yes they do.

Stupid iOS auto correct 😳

Replaced my g3 powertap with a discounted 7900 stages price matched at Evans - they've been decent with my powertap returns and sorted out getting me some replacement brass nipples for my ENVE wheels so happy for them to have my business again - was close to buying a vector though, maybe next time

On my second stages, not by choice. First went back after 18 months when it was eating batteries and looked to have cracked the unit which doesn't appear uncommon.

Have purchased a Rotor INPower (from Germany, thanks to the weak euro) for the TT bike. So far, only fitted a week ago and ridden twice, it seems a good product. But then again stages did for a few weeks... Interestingly Rotor have put a fair amount of grease on the battery door, perhaps worried about water ingress????

Right Then 🙂

What is looking good value in terms of road PM for 170 compact cranks to fit a BB30 frame?

I currently use Stages on the MTB and have been very happy. Stages Rival, ultregra and dura ace are going cheap but will require a bb adapter adding weight and cost plus the cost of the DS arm...

I like the look of P2m but they seem to be around £800 which is more than I'd ideally like to spend :/

BePro *look* nice but I don't fancy being a beta tester and there isn't currently stock anywhere that I can see

I keep coming back to Rotor INpower for a reasonably priced, lightish Bb30 solution but I wonder if I am missing something more obvious or better value?

Some interesting comments regarding the (shit) durability on BePro on DCR.

Indeed! If something looks to good to be true then it probably is

Got a P2M and Vector pedals. I'd recommend both. If you're happy with single sided (like the Stages) and funds are tight then you could go vector S and upgrade later with a second pedal like I did.

Rotor INPower looks ok, still quite new to market though so I'd be a bit weary.

A Quarq maybe?

Also on DCRainmaker an interesting look at WKO4. I already don't understand the majority of charts on Golden Cheetah so won't be going there myself.

I have WKO3, and it was good, but you're right, it needs a lot of time pouring over it to make the most of what it's telling you. Perfect if you have a trained coach to do that bit!

My P45 led to my coach's P45........ what I lost in analysis I've made up with volume (I think!)

Anyone got a link to making sense of quadrant analysis?

Got a P2M and Vector pedals. I'd recommend both. If you're happy with single sided (like the Stages) and funds are tight then you could go vector S and upgrade later with a second pedal like I did.

I'd happily go for P2M if an offer popped up but it seems they only direct sell now??? So maybe this is why the prices don't go crazy low?

Vector is an interesting one. I'd discounted it as I had in my head they were crazy expensive but ~£560 (PM24) is the kind of money I am looking to spend. I thought they had a bit of a bad rep but the reviews make them out to be much like any other PM- fit and forget.

Rotor INPower looks ok, still quite new to market though so I'd be a bit weary

True, but it is very well priced, looks good, is potentially pretty light in the right model and has great BB compatibility. I think it is a toss up between Rotor and Garmin now 😀

A Quarq maybe?

The only one in my price range is heavy and ugly but it does at least offer more reliable total power than the others I'm considering at the moment....

Choosing a PM for MTB is pretty easy as there aren't many options but I think picking one for road will be more down to the right bargain popping up- anyone come across any stonkingly good bargains?

Vector had pod reliability issues on version one, plus you ideally need to use a torque wrench to install them, so not as easy to swap between bikes as (say) Powertap P1s.

It feels like it's always like this, but with Eurobike and Interbike kicking off imminently id perhaps wait and see if prices are changed or new products emerge, if that's an option.

I think waiting is the sensible option. Only Stages have super cheap deals at the moment so I'll see what the future holds.

In the mean-time if anyone comes across any outrageous deals on any PM then please post up 😀

I reckon Stages will be announcing their dual sided PM at Inter/Eurobike, I wonder if we'll see more discounts.

P2M just cut their prices. Only 615 quid for the newer Type S on Rotor 3D24 crankset (down from 1100 euro to 840 I think.) Cheapest type S now 500 quid.

I think Stages should sort out their reliability before even thinking about a dual sided system!

Touch wood, I'm three weeks in with my 4th unit, and its still going strong though - so maybe just maybe....

That's rather interesting MrBlobby, I'd def have another P2M in a heartbeat, I really like the look of the Rotor too. Will have to look later, not be buying though, it's basically the run up to Xmas, ****in kids...

Ooooft €770 for a single ring MTB Type S Rotor 3D! Only got 170 & 172.5 though.

Stages now available for Carbon Arms

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/stages-cycling-power-meters-go-carbon-at-last-45115/

That's interesting, stages own crank for SRAM

Yeah Campy support in carbon! 8)

That does look good! Vaguely sensible price too, assuming it scales nicely to GBP.

Look Keo Power now supporting ANT+ and BLE ([url= http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/look-keo-power-finally-joins-the-ant-club-45120/ ]here[/url]). About the same retail as a vector i think so another in the pedal based mix.

I dunno, I think they're missing something now. Not the cheapest and still only left sided.

I don't disagree. Thought we'd see dual sided, given the testing in the wild. Still an interesting option, there aren't that many on the MTB, particularly when Rotor doesn't work on Trek frames.

Missed opportunity by Look to undercut Vector, why would you choose the Looks? I'd have the Vector for the Dynamics stuff, useful or not, with nowt else to choose between them that's where my money would go.

BB30 only for the non-Campag carbon cranks, so no use for Trek frames anyway. Grumble grumble grumble.

P2M Type-S prices down 20%, again US do better out of it; a Rotor 3D is £616 in Euros and £513 in dollars!

Is that due to sales tax though? I'm really bloody tempted by another P2M.

mrblobby - Member
P2M just cut their prices. Only 615 quid for the newer Type S on Rotor 3D24 crankset (down from 1100 euro to 840 I think.) Cheapest type S now 500 quid.
POSTED 1 DAY AGO #

Njee, do keep up 😉

Whoops, sorry!

I'm finding it very hard to not buy the P2M Rotor spider 😀 Decent price at £500 and I'm sure you must be able to get hold of the cranks for £50 or so on ebay...

Are those rotor cranks any good? Seem heavy compared to SRAM. Have to add in rings and special tool increase price another 130eur. Which rotor version would fit a non bb30 frame? I currently have 10 speed force.