There was an update on DC Rainmaker,
An Update After a Meeting:
Hi All-I just wanted to provide an update after I spent some time on the phone on Thursday with the LIMITS team, discussing their plans and where they stand. While it was a very constructive conversation, there wasn’t anything that was said that changed my mind on the timeline aspect. In fact, I’d say it actually went the other way. For example, I was looking for some element of proof that the company had prototypes with riders on the units and transmitting power wirelessly. That’d be about where they need to be in order to make any end of year dates.
Unfortunately, they are far from that. At this point they have no prototype that can transmit wirelessly, nor have any teams or individual riders taken LIMITS for a ride (because it doesn’t exist yet). Their current unit transmits the torque (but not yet cadence). This is done via wired transmission though, and not yet via ANT+ (no ANT+ chipset has been selected). Most importantly though, they have not compared that figure to any existing power meter on the market – at this point.
I discussed my concerns with them regarding their timelines. They were extremely hesitant to give any additional details on when a ‘beta’ unit would be available to either their team or other individuals could put it on a bike and start gathering data (be it the company themselves or a 3rd party). After much discussion around the topic they stated likely by the end of June such a unit might be available.
I had hopes that they’d be further along, such as actually having a working prototype as was implied in their crowd funding video. Unfortunately, everything shown in the video was merely mockup.
Once they do get to production, they’re planning for most of the metal/machined parts to be done in Asia, with the PCB (electronics) also done in Asia. However, assembly may take place closer to home (Scotland), but that’s still to be finalized. Right now they’re looking at using SR44 coin cell batteries (the same as the Verve Infocrank power meter uses). The LIMITS power meter will also contain temperature sensors for temperature compensation.
As for funding, like most entities that launch on crowd funded sites these days they have the funding they already need – some from private equity investors and a fair chunk from the Scottish government via incubator funding. Also like most other entities they saw Indiegogo as primarily a marketing engine to draw attention (which obviously worked quite well). I asked why Indiegogo over Kickstarter and they answered that had they done it all over again they’d probably have selected Kickstarter, mainly due to the wider appeal/popularity of Kickstarter over Indiegogo (and that they would have likely seen more attention).
We noted that we’d catch up again once they had some form of prototype unit that perhaps was demonstrable. Until that point, it’s largely in the realm of theory.
Ohhh. That's not great. Verging on misleading.
Didn't realise they were Scottish, had assumed 'mercan.
The total level of crowd funding sounds good until you realise they "have to" honour the investors with a fully functional power meter for that fairly small amount of money!
All crowd funding is bordering on a scam as it is. I guess people think they paid x amount for a PM when the reality is that the company have no obligation to provide anything. The DC article is particularly interesting because it sounds like this was always a marketing gimmick from the start, purley to generate interest.
I can't see anyone getting an Asian manufacturer sorted from scratch in a year let alone start to actually design the thing and get a polished end product within their timescales.
I'll go for 24 months over-run and that is being optomistic! 😀
Certainly seems plausible. One does wonder if they've intentionally set a daft timescale to drum up extra interest. I can't imagine as many people would pledge if they were told "delivery is March 2018" (which is my guess incidentally!).
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/05/powertap-pedals-chainringjoule.html
Another update, this time non-vapourware!
Update on the [url= http://www.bikerumor.com/2015/05/05/watteam-powerbeat-powermeters-get-more-aero-and-a-cleaner-install-still-just-499/#more-101279 ]Watteam Powerbeat[/url] too. Looks pretty good.
I'd totally forgotten about those! So many new products!
Yes, even if 499 dollars ends up being 499 pounds, it'll still be pretty bloody good for a dual sided job. No idea if they have any UK distribution in mind though.
Slightly OT but what reading Should I get my Garmin to display?
Instantaneous power seems to fluctuate too much to be able to ride in a particular Zone. Even 3 second power fluctuates too much.
So should I use a 30 second average display or is that too much of an average?
Depends.
On road, if I'm riding to power, 3 second tends to work best for me, though need to keep the lag in mind when riding.
30 second ok I guess if you want to keep an eye on trends but pretty useless IMO. Why would you want to know what your average power was over the last 30 seconds?
Instantaneous power seems to fluctuate too much to be able to ride in a particular Zone. Even 3 second power fluctuates too much.
What do you expect from a PM? Power will naturally fluctuate a bit and the idea you can ride to a given "number" is a myth that Chris Froome hasn't done any favours to dispel by staring at his stem all the time 😆
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On road, if I'm riding to power, 3 second tends to work best for me, though need to keep the lag in mind when riding.30 second ok I guess if you want to keep an eye on trends but pretty useless IMO. Why would you want to know what your average power was over the last 30 seconds?
Exactly. 3s average Power for me too. If it is good enough for Gee then it is good enough for me! 1s is a little too unstable outdoors but anything longer than 3s and you are living too far in the past to actually use the reading for anything useful. A PM just records the power you put in so if you want it to be more stable then there's only one solution 😀
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Agree, 3s for me too. I wonder if longer has a place on a drag strip TT course, for pacing. About it.
[url= https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7693/17202532388_82ac44baaf_o.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7693/17202532388_82ac44baaf_o.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/sd8ty1 ]Untitled[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/people/129593813@N03/ ]monkeyfudger[/url], on Flickr
General riding around/mincer intervals/hill reps/STRAVA!!
30 seconds keeps you honest and stops you slacking off or stops you being to much of a hero when you're half wheeling...
[url= https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8695/17202763060_f52fb07bbf_o.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8695/17202763060_f52fb07bbf_o.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/sd9E87 ]Untitled[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/people/129593813@N03/ ]monkeyfudger[/url], on Flickr
The more serious horrible style proper intervals where I wanna know what I've done/failed to do a the end of it but don't want to wait 'till the end of the ride!
Flick between both but mainly on the top one 99% of the time.
And as said above, it's really important to remember that what you're seeing is old news, don't chase power numbers, settle in to your "pace" then look.
Thanks guys. Yeah, I appreciate it will fluctuate and I probably could be smoother but sometimes even staying within a particular zone is difficult - say if its gusty.
I wonder if longer has a place on a drag strip TT course, for pacing. About it.
For TT I still stick to 3 second avg, though am watching the PM a lot more and sometimes the delay is a bit annoying. Can't see 30 second being useful as you really want to make sure you are at the limit all the time. Though you do have to be careful not to end up chasing a power value.
I appreciate it will fluctuate and I probably could be smoother but sometimes even staying within a particular zone is difficult - say if its gusty.
Holding +/- 5W is never going to happen but a "zone" is what 30-50W wide? You should be able to hit that for most of a ride/ interval on RPE and is why gears were invented 😀 There also isn't anything wrong with drifting outside the "target zone" for those times when outside factors disrupt your rhythm. It is impossible to "ride to the numbers" but RPE should get you in the ballpark and the PM is a quality check. Exactly as monkeyfudger says, a quick glance as a quick check after settling into a pace rather than chasing numbers is the way to go.
10s average for me, sometimes 30s. What exactly are you doing that needs such a precise measurement? Even when I do 20/40s, I'm counting seconds not watts. I'd have thought 30s was de facto for TTs. Holding +/- 5 watts is [url= http://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/pages/articleviewer.aspx?year=2004&issue=07000&article=00025&type=abstract ]less than measurement error[/url] for 300 watts. Cadence is a more accurate measure.
Quite an interesting article [url= http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/fitness/training/time-trial-performance-why-even-pacing-might-not-be-best-23148 ]here[/url] on time trial pacing. Can be quite fatiguing to try and ride rigidly to a rapidly fluctuating power value. Think for time trials you're better off mostly going by cadence and speed, keeping things smooth, and just having an eye on power for pacing. If you find yourself chasing power then you might be better off with 10 or 30 second averages.
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Only 29km per hour must have been very very hilly.....
I just can't see how that's possible. He should really have a go at the hour record.
I'd be happy with that power over a 10 mile time trial, would get likely get you into the 20's. For a 3hr 20min effort that's mind boggling. Really is so many levels above your average club cyclist (like me!)
Kwiatkowski's world champs win is also worth a look ([url= http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/michal-kwiatkowski-s-world-champion-power-file-from-quarq ]here[/url]) if you like to try and comprehend that sort of thing.
Surely that's a 20 min average?!
That sounds about right, 4.8W/kg, you'll need more than that to be competitive on the road.
"De Kort’s 2015 Paris-Roubaix ride was equivalent to him riding at 321 watts (4.6 watts per kilo) for over six hours - an effort many amateurs would struggle to maintain for 20 minutes."
100km and 2500m climbing on the course.
It would be interesting to know more about Kulhavy's power... 364W for 3 hours does seem a little high on first look although I guess you have to put that in to perspective with the road guys, for whom being 76kg is huge! 4.8w/kg then seems kinda do-able over 3 hours. Ramunas Navardauskas is a similar size to Kulhavy and had pics of ~330W for 5 hours during a stage race (forget which one!) and he is one of the stronger guys you'll see pull a peleton around. Kulhavy's pic could of course be normalized power rather than average power, or average power with the zeros excluded so there a lot of variables to understanding it.
On a related pro power theme, Lars Petter Nordhaug said on Eurosport his personal best 5 min power is just north of 500W and 435W for 10min.... at 63.5kg.
Yes, one assumes there were quite a few zero values, the graph would be very interesting to see.
Meanwhile - [url= https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/limits-the-world-s-smartest-cycling-power-meter ]LIMITS[/url] isn't far off doubling its funding target.
a related pro power theme, Lars Petter Nordhaug said on Eurosport his personal best 5 min power is just north of 500W and 435W for 10min.... at 63.5kg.
[Looks at my own, shakes head, continues with sausage and egg sandwich]
Don't suppose anyone has any idea of whether Max2power might reduce their prices at some point over the summer (wishful thinking here!) according to DCRainmaker prices have been going down in the US recently for most power meters. I noticed if you buy a Max2power in the US it works out around 100 squids cheaper after converting to sterling.
Also, while you're on the subject of TTs - what sort of time do you think would be average for a 10 mile TT (about 350-400ft elevation gain) and what would be a respectable time? I thinking I might go try one and I'd like to have something to aim at. I know, I know, how long is a piece of string and all that, but Im just interested in a ballpark...
I tend to go off lap avg for training or just messin', the 3 or 10s readings are a bit distracting. To beat my PB on a local 20min climb I know I need to average 360w, so I just hit LAP at the bottom and try to keep it somewhere around there.
Respectable time for a 10? Depends on so many things. If you're a pretty decent rider on a proper TT bike then under 25 mins should be doable and is usually a good first goal. Really you just need to do one to set a benchmark for yourself then go from there. If it's a proper TT course it should have a code associated with it (e.g H10/3) and you'll likely find a Strava segment for it.
I gave up on the power plot and now just read off my 20, 5, 1 min and 5 sec power from my best efforts from Strava. Normally races. Sky won't be calling for their vets team any day soon 🙁
Anyway, this gets me across the line in the top third of E123 circuit races and 2/3 road races:
20 min 4.2 W/kg
5 min 4.6 W/kg
1 min 6 W/kg
5 sec 12 W/kg
To be a top performer, your power should DOUBLE from 20 to 1 min, and double again from 1 min to 5 sec. I'm not a sprinter and need another 4 W/kg. Another sandwich nurse!
TiRed, that profile is almost exactly the same as mine. I am definitely no sprinter 🙁
Welcome to Club Domestique 😉
My training is now almost exclusively STME - 20/40s and minute pyramids. I'm not expecting huge improvements, but am pleased to be in the mix at 47 and 68 kg.
Another sandwich nurse! And tramadol!
Picked the new Propel SL2 for added whiteness and lightness. Might go for left side vector now the pods are fixed.
Thanks. I can't be bothered upping my top end, I'm consigned to testing.
Wasn't aware that the pods were broken. Mine have been fine! Improvements probably no bad thing though.
The original pods have been cracking at an alarming rate when mounting (not in use), which has prompted a redesign and the option to “upgrade” for £60 a side. The new design doesn't use a washer, which I guess was the issue.
Any owners on here broken one? My clubmate has seen off several.
I guess it's more of a potential issue if you swap them lots.
i broke a Polar one during fitting when they first came out 😳
I'm consigned to testing.
Not at all! Consigned to not winning much, maybe, but Charlie never won a professional race in his career. I'm happy working for the team, after all, cycling is a team sport. Top third is my expectation, points are a bonus. Second Cat was a possible objective with a lot of Masters racing. I hope to be back by close of summer. And if the claim goes my way, I'll have a power meter on every bike 😉
500 Watts for five minutes is 8 watts per kg, which would be 6 watts/kg at 20 min (25% reduction to get FTP), then keep doubling FTP to get 24 watts/kg at 5 seconds. I need 16 watts/kg just to be competitive in the sprints. Impressive stuff.
But really, you don't need huge precision, just an appreciation of the power spectrum. And I work with numbers all day.
According to Stages and Training Peaks over the last 6 months I may be applying for a junior domestique place in your over 50s team:-
20mins 4.6 W/Kg
5mins 5.2 W/Kg
1min 6 W/Kg
5sec 10 W/Kg
Starting to want to verify my Stages - some big numbers on last nights commute. Sure I felt strong but 44W stronger after 4 months. Seems a bit of a stretch even if I was 2minutes 37seconds quicker over 8.9km
TiRed, sign me up! Only done one 34 crit so far but with our power profile I really don't see how I'd ever win a point! Maybe if it was cat 4 only and a smaller field (and not 150 riders with a load of experienced cat 3 guys) I'd have a chance, and maybe not crits either. Answer is probably race craft!
Interesting to see the power numbers.
Wattbike/Power2Max numbers, from Training Peaks
20mins 4.2 W/Kg
5mins 4.4 W/Kg
1min 6.8 W/Kg
5sec 14.2 W/Kg
Hey, maybe I should be a sprinter! But these are @66kg, so I've always considered myself a climber.
Interesting to see the power numbers.
Well mine are quite flat..
20 min 4.6
5 min 5.0
1 min 6.8
5 sec 12.8
@72kg. Not raced much this year so hopefully should go up a bit over the next few months. I could probably do a bit better at 5, 1 and 30s but I've not done proper full gas efforts for those durations in ages. The 20 min was from a test in Feb so should be a bit higher now too. We all look much the same though, at least within the range of error for typical PMs.
We'd make a brilliant team of domestiques 🙂
Still no road racing around here so I've been concentrating on the MTB, shop I ride for is organising one race which will be the only road race in about a 150 mile area!! Went from long solid zone 2's into short efforts so I've not actually done an hour effort (let's be honest they're bloody awful anyway haha!!) longest ride this year has only been 3 hours!
@59kg (sometimes less 😯 ) so a good bit lighter than you guys, you'd all absolutely hammer me on the flat!!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/129593813@N03/17632308761/in/dateposted-public/
Really want a PM on the MTB, these are taken from the winter bike which is a heavy beast of a thing that sometimes leaves sprinting (and thus getting out and doing short hard efforts) a bit meh!
20 min - 4.76
5 min - 5.53
1 min - 8.77
5s - 16.23
3 podiums in (regional) sport so far this year, hope I can keep it up or better, improve. Fancy a National, top 10 would be amazing if I manage to get to one!!
At 72kg I'm beginning to feel like a bit of a fatty on this thread!
Haha, I'll trade you some weight! I know guys that can climb at the same speed as me most of the time but when it gets flat they ****ing kill me!!! Once the babies aren't babies you'll be killing it again mate!
FWIW losing 3-4kg this year seems to have cost me 200-250W from my 5 second power (not worked out 1 min but it's down), 20min and 1 hour (estimated) is about the same which doesn't bother me so much on the MTB but I'd really be wanting that back on the road!
Thanks for the trade offer monkeyfudger, though Mrs Blobby is already complaining I'm too skinny!
Interesting regarding the weight to power trade off. Assuming that overal it's been a positive results wise? The weight thing does put me off doing more xc racing though, getting back under 70 would be hard.
Difficult to say, I only done one XC race last year which was a 4th in Masters, flat course (Cathkin Braes) so no real way of comparing. I really didn't plan on being this light as I don't think it's that healthy...but I've been ill less, go figure!
I'll be putting a conscious effort in to gain weight over the winter this year, I'd like to hit 65kg as I believe I'll be road racing again (hopefully!), if I can hit the same W/Kg I reckon I can get some decent results.
I think it depends on how many hard efforts you can do, I'm not capable of hard effort after hard effort, I've really only got 2-3 in me so a big guy who can dig in again and again would beat me.
😀 you better keep the Mrs happy then!!
At 72kg I'm beginning to feel like a bit of a fatty on this thread!
im 82kg fss 😆
5s - 12.76W/kg
1m - 6.74W/kg
5m - 4.38W/kg
20m - 3.83W/kg
Link for the non facebookers (Flickr hates me/iPhone's now so I can't grab the IMG link)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/129593813@N03/17189839474/in/dateposted-public/
😛 at the first comment!
Wonder who's testing that?
Much market for a dual sided Stages? I'd guess it'd bump the price up beyond the likes of P2M or Quark, though it would be offset a bit by actually getting a full chainset and not just one arm! After everything I've read and heard about Stages I think my money would be going elsewhere.
I wonder if this is just the next step in their development, they've probably sold enough units to have clawed back their initial R&D investment by now and as we know the actual bits to make a PM are cheap, they could just release the new dual sided PM at the same price, smashing the price war down a notch again like they did at launch.
Massively jumping the gun here as its a proto but why bother using two batteries on a product that is effectively linked, you'll always need 2 batteries on pedals but this is missing a trick IMO. Stick a rechargeable battery in the axle and link the 2 pods. With one step you've removed the only complaint/problem people have with Stages and at the same time introduce a selling point.
And good luck changing that battery with the crank in place!
SKY have used dual sided Stages pretty much from the outset of their sponsorship so this isn't too new. In their case there was a telling bright blue battery case on the DS crank arm.
If I were buying a PM today I'd still go for Stages and only Rotor InPower would make me think twice about this. The more expensive options wouldn't give me any advantages.
It is very interesting though, to see if true left/ right PM's can hit the market at a reasonable price point. I can't think off the top of my head but isn't a dual Vector setup the only "true" left/ right PM available at the moment? The spider based PM's measure right down + left up/ left down + right up to measure net work done on each side but don't completely isolate left/ right power as far as I am aware (???!)
Quite a few dual sided. Polar, Garmin and now PowerTap with pedals. Info Crank and Rotor with crank based. 4iiii and soon PowerBeat with crank based. I think Pioneer is crank based too.
Assuming MTB I think I'd actually go Quark if buying today. Seem a popular choice and don't hear much in the way of complaints.
Sorry, I meant for MTB 😳 Pedal options aren't ideal for MTB, Info, Pioneer and Rotor don't do MTB versions of their dual sided.... are 4iiii making a solid product now after their problems? I realise MTB PM's are a niche market but I think a PM would have to be true dual sided to tempt my away from Stages or try the INpower.
There were a lot of issues with Quarq data going nuts then stopping transmitting completely, spikes in cold weather, power drift, water ingress and not being great at turning around warranty replacements quickly. Maybe this is fixed now and the XX1 unit is different to some of the road models but there was enough to make me think twice when buying (mainly the slow warranty work). That said, all PM's seem to have their issues from time to time
4iiii are shipping LH pods, but they have to install them, $50 more than when they launched, which I think was always the plan. They're saying carbon cranks and RH pods will follow.
Shame they've had the problems they have, I still like the theory.
4iii have my crank at the moment, but took so long in the first place that I bought a stages. Then I bought a kickr. So soon I'll have three power readings for comparison. The kickr and stages currently read within a few watts of each other. If the 4iii reports a higher value, then clearly the existing two are wrong 🙂
Obviously you're kidding, but that is the trouble, you don't actually know! That in itself isn't an issue until you try and compare across systems, and do a session at 300 Kickr-watts, which is actually 350 Stages-watts!
Yup, I agree entirely.
That said, prior to calibration and new firmware the Kickr was recording about 40w higher at typical levels, but since then they've tracked fairly closely. I guess a better test would be put the kickr in erg mode in some form of pyramid power over an hour and compare that to the stages output. Of course even if they still matched relatively closely it's still just an arbitrary number.
The kickr gets mostly used on zwift, so hopefully it's an inflated arbitrary number. 🙂
Interesting comment on the kickr accuracy. Heard quite a lot about them drifting to the extent that people were running them off external PMs. Has put me off a bit.
I guess with regards multiple PMs it's consistency that's important and you can usually set a slope or scaling factor to compensate on most. Need to do so on the Vectors to bring them in line with P2M and PowerTap.
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/05/pioneer-system-review.html
I'll take two of anyone's feeling genorous 😉
Mmm, interesting. Not keen on the US/Euro pricing, but does look a great option.
It'd be amazing if we could get 'em for $999, although I assume (maybe wrong) that doesn't include cranks. Not actually properly looked as they don't appear to be available in the UK.
Shame the head unit doesn't seem like a viable Garmin alternative.
Is there actually any benefit for training on an MTB using power?
I would've thought that the nature of MTB riding would mean that any power figures would be difficult to maintain unless on a longish climb or a fire road section.
seems you can now pickup the 105 5700 stages power meter with 20% off at a few places, that brings it down to £480.
I'm assuming its because the new units at on 105 5800, I'm assuming the actual strain gauge is going to be the same....anyone know if thats the case?
Same with the 7900 dura-ace, saw a post on WW saying it was being cleared out at $450 or thereabouts
Tech wise they will be the same
very very close to getting a stages. slight worry they there is about to be a massive reduction in the price of the things but you could always say that and never get one. just need to prepare myself for some disappointingly low numbers
be nice if stages made the 7900 arm a reduction in europe 🙄
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4iiii are shipping LH pods, but they have to install them, $50 more than when they launched, which I think was always the plan. They're saying carbon cranks and RH pods will follow.
I'm not holding my breath. My masters dissertation was on 'power meters' for carbon ice hockey sticks. It's pretty difficult for a few reasons.
1) carbon bends in weird ways.
2) carbon gets softer over time as the laminate starts to break down.
3) gluing stuff to carbon in such a way that the glue isn't so flexible that it absorbs all the bend rather than transmit to the power meter is difficult (and we were trying to glue the strain gauges right into the laminate, not just epoxy a plastic box onto the surface which would be even trickier).
I'd like a cheap power meter, and I have carbon cranks, but I won't be buying a 4iiii in a hurry.
slight reduction of the 7900 in the Stages EU shop
http://www.stagescycling.eu/shop/TRIATHLON/Shimano/Stages-Power-Meter-Dura-Ace-7900.html
Cheaper than 105 now.
Someone was telling me that 7900 arms aren't cross compatible with 9000 chain sets, I was cynical. Anyone know? Strikes me they're close enough aesthetically, not like you ever see both together. I'd not pay much of a premium for a 9000 arm!
Curious. I've certainly mixed old and new 105 and Ultegra LH and RH crank parts with no issues. Would seem a bit odd for them to change the 9000 arm.
says they are compatible on the US stages site, you need a proxy to view it though
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not the first place id think of looking for a cheap Stages
http://www.shopto.net/cycling/top-brands/stage/store
Limits have been beaten to it! Kind of.... 😀
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[url= http://www.merlincycles.com/stages-power-shimano-ultegra-6700-power-meter-85003.html?utm_source=Merlin+Cycles&utm_campaign=0dac55aa91-Week_28_Monday_Mega_Deals&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_efec82f678-0dac55aa91-260368185&mc_cid=0dac55aa91&mc_eid=0b7cc29e06 ]Stages 6700 Ultegra[/url] £399 at Merlin for anyone interested.. not sure whether this is a price drop, but assume it is...
It's because it's old ultegra not current 6800 series, functionally the sane just cosmetically different
Good option
Those BePro pedals look good for €749. Cheapest proper dual sided power meter?