Hmm I have 3 power meters already and will probably get a two sided 4iiii if the reviews are positive!
So I spoke too soon, my PowerTap died today. Two new sets of batteries and no, bugger. Giving erratic readings constantly (generally very low) and drops out regularly. Torque tube?
looks like your cadence is dropping out at the same time as the power reading, so looks like a signal issue, HRM is stable so i guess you can rule out the Garmin, - don't know the ins and outs of the hubs, but assume this part is different to the torque tube?
That is a bugger. They are still doing their discounted G3 as replacements for broken old ones! Though must surely be cheaper to fix the PT P. Is it the old one (12mm) or the newer one (15mm) with the replaceable electronics pod thing?
Didn't really want to hear about broken powertap's right now seeing as I have a new one ready to build up. Oh well, if it lasts me a couple of winters I'll be happy with that.
looks like your cadence is dropping out at the same time as the power reading, so looks like a signal issue, HRM is stable so i guess you can rule out the Garmin, - don't know the ins and outs of the hubs, but assume this part is different to the torque tube?
Another use for Strava - diagnostics haha! Yep, HR fine. I don't know enough about them to be honest, but the default failure mechanism seems to be the torque tube, which from photos looks to just be all the internals! I'll have a bit more of a play, strikes me as odd that it's correct sometimes (albeit rarely).
Mrblobby I'd not worry - mines 5 years old, done thousands of miles with nothing more than bearings. I can't really complain if it's dead, just frustrating as i was so close to replacing it, now the dilemma of fix or bin!
low battery warning for stages again today
340km, about 20 hours of riding,
however its consistent with the last battery dying, i guess id get another couple of rides, never dies mid
ride, just doesn't connect on the next one,
numbers seem consistent since purchase,
Are you using cheap eBay batteries or anything?
nah duracell from tesco
Does it have the newer 'o' ring seal on the battery cover? As I understand it, the older ones were thinner and let water in either pre or post first battery change, leading to the power drain and warranty replacement. AFAIK the new seals are red not black.
My Stages battery went y'day after 20hrs from new. Calibrated, worked ok for 20mins then died.
Replaced battery, seal is red and all was dry. Updated firmware and crossing fingers.
Connecting via bluetooth to my bike made me laugh - whoever would have thought it.
red seal, muddy ride today, flashed up about 40km in, although ride from a couple of weeks ago in the peaks was wetter 92km mam tor/drs gate/cut gate - don't jet wash, and remove crank arm when washing bike - bone dry in the battery compartment
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If I tell you my new battery went you will see from ^^ that it lasted 16 hours.
Merlin will replace but say they have had a spate of battery issues since the latest firmware release (coincides with wet weather?)
Merlin 10% discount code till Monday (MERLIN10) which brings the 105 Stages down to 540 quid. Pretty good price.
I've been lurking on this thread for a while, so it's time to join in!
Has anyone on here had a go with a Rotor LT yet? Just looking for a real world review of how easy it is to calibrate, change batteries (if needed) etc.
I have the opportunity to get one at a good price, and having tried out the Vectors (dual sided) and previously ridden watt bikes I know I don't have a huge imbalance so left only doesn't bother me.
Battery replacement is just a threaded cover, CR2032s I think.
It's a good price, when you consider it includes a chainset. Won't work on a current carbon Trek though, if that's an issue.
I don't have a trek- but out of interest why won't it work??
I am eyeing up a groupset change anyway so it works out pretty cost effective if I don't buy a chainset.
I was tempted to buy the Rotor LT but it would have needed a new BB (to go from BSA to a 30mm axle) and they are quite pricey. I'd also want rings that matched the chainset (not entirely necessary expense but any of my current rings would look silly on it.) So the cost did mount up pretty quickly.
Interested to know why it wouldn't fit on a Trek too?
Good point on the rings, but for now I can just throw the current rings on there and ride them until they die or I win the lottery!
I need a new BB anyway, so not too worried about that- assuming I won't go for a ceramic one.
Interested to know why it wouldn't fit on a Trek too?
The 3D+ has a 30mm BB spindle, and you can't get bearings that fit in the Trek BB90 shell - not enough room.
Same for the RF Next SL, THM M3, Lightning etc.
Njee20 knows his stuff...
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I'll step in with my praise for the power2max.
Installed it mid August.
Connected immediately with my Garmin and does so every ride without me having to do anything (it also auto-zeros)
Have used it 5-6 days week since then in all weathers and on the turbo including one ridiculously wet ride for 5 hours where even my Hope light went mental due to water ingress!
Still working just fine, so very pleased with it.
Yeah, Trek BB90 has a 37mm inner diameter. Impossible to make a bearing which will take a 30mm axle. 24mm axle only for BB90.
Silly bottom brackets eh!
Slightly annoying it must be said, particularly as more and more frames are going to 30mm axles. Would've gone for Next SLs on my Superfly had it not been for that!
I must admit that until I started looking at power meters I hadn't appreciated what a minefield bottom bracket "standards" were.
A quick glance at that Rotor chart shows 13 BB standards but I think there may even be more around these days! I'm glad I had the luck/ foresight to stick with BSA frames!
Update on the 4iiii over at [url= http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/01/update-4iiii-precision.html ]dcrainmaker[/url]. Still not shipped. Getting there though.
Got the bill to repair my PowerTap today, £340... Boooo. Can't decide whether to tell them just to junk it 😕
That sucks! Any goodwill discount on a new one?
Crikey, you could replace it for not much more than that. What's broken? I'd junk it.
Torque tube, will talk to them tomorrow. Goodwill offer is £490 for a new G3 rear wheel, but I can get stuff trade, so zero advantage.
Just an update to balance the Stages negativity.... my battery has lasted 115 hours riding time, all outdoors. More than happy with that.
[url=
[/url]now has a bit on the 4iiii from Core Bike. Claims £349 which would be super. Doesn't mention an UK distributor. Still not shipping either.
@mrblobby, reading DCRainmakers blog update on the 4iii, (after reading the Road.cc report earlier), it looks like it can be had via one of his partners sites at 10% discount with low shipping to the UK.
Certainly looks really interesting, £300-£350 for a one sided PM is a real shift in pricing!
I wonder if they'll do a "buy one, get one free" offer? 8)
Other than the carbon crank compatibility (which doesn't affect me) they look a definite competitor to Stages. The pictures of what I assume is a production model on the road.cc looks like it has lugs to take Garmin style straps possibly as a backup to the contact adhesive.
I understand why they have to be bonded to the crank but I'd like to see a similar sized device that you could easily move between cranksets/bikes in the same way that the newer Garmin cadence sensors can be. It's one area where pretty well all the current devices fall short, I can see why the manufacturers might not want to do it as with the current systems you need to buy a new unit for each bike you want to use it on.
he pictures of what I assume is a production model on the road.cc looks like it has lugs to take Garmin style straps possibly as a backup to the contact adhesive.
LOL. I asked that exact question on the DC site, see comments in the link below. But no, it seems that they are to be epoxied on and not meant to be removed. Period.
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/01/update-4iiii-precision.html
Other than the carbon crank compatibility (which doesn't affect me) they look a definite competitor to Stages. The pictures of what I assume is a production model on the road.cc looks like it has lugs to take Garmin style straps possibly as a backup to the contact adhesive.
The lugs are there to secure it to the crank while the adhesive sets.
I'd like to see a similar sized device that you could easily move between cranksets/bikes in the same way that the newer Garmin cadence sensors can be.
Just the way the stain gauges work they need to be permanently fixed to something that is under strain when you pedal. Think a more realistic hope is that they'll fall in price enough that you can sensibly have one on each bike and not have to worry about swapping them around (much like you just buy a new cadence sensor for each bike as they aren't worth swapping about.)
I think the parts actually pretty cheap and that it's the R&D required to get something reliable and accurate that's the expensive bit. That seems to be coming down in price all the time.
They physically can't be removed without destroying them infact.
Seems the slight downside to me. I've never trashed a crank, or had one fail but if (for example) the threads come out of your SRAM crank or something. You'll get a new crank, but still be out of pocket for your power meter.
Pricing isn't brilliant - it's $349 (or $399 with the fitting kit) and they'll ship to the UK. The UK distributor seems to be a consumer electronics firm, with a crap website. Massive opportunity missed considering this is potentially of mass appeal to cyclists, but not remotely interesting to anyone else. Should have partnered with an established UK distributor without a current power meter, I'd have thought there would be demand from someone like Extra or Zyro.
Still very likely to get at least one I reckon!
I understand why they have to be bonded to the crank but I'd like to see a similar sized device that you could easily move between cranksets/bikes in the same way that the newer Garmin cadence sensors can be.
But if you understand how it works surely you get why that's impossible, and it's not because the manufacturers want you to buy multiple units!
The UK distributor seems to be a consumer electronics firm, with a crap website. Massive opportunity missed considering this is potentially of mass appeal to cyclists, but not remotely interesting to anyone else. Should have partnered with an established UK distributor without a current power meter, I'd have thought there would be demand from someone like Extra or Zyro.
Oh dear, I'd assumed that was some sort of mistake by road.cc. They really the UK distributor? 😕
Great minds and all that 😆
I think I'd like some form of backup too. I'd be a bit worried about stone strike on a mountain bike since the unit sits proud of the crank, not so much for it being knocked off but impact damage.
Yeah that was my concern, however it seems, by looking at the pictures, that a number of cranks allow mounting on the drive side, thus placing the pod next to the chain ring and protecting it a bit more.
I'm not sure you have to worry much, it's well on there, and very small/light. How often does something actually impact the back of your crank like that?
Oh dear, I'd assumed that was some sort of mistake by road.cc. They really the UK distributor?
Someone commented on the DCRainmaker update a few weeks ago that it was them, so I think it's real, and very weird!
But if you understand how it works surely you get why that's impossible, and it's not because the manufacturers want you to buy multiple units!
With the way they've implemented it yes, it's impossible but what I had in mind was an intermediate mount or cradle that was epoxied on to the crank and the active part of the unit securely fixed within that. Going from the installation images on DCRainmaker's site the epoxy used to fix the unit in place doesn't look like it's placed in exact positions which match up to sensors within the unit so I'd guess that it isn't measuring strain within the crank. If that's the case then so long as it's held firmly at a known location the method of securing it is not really relevant and they've chosen epoxy as the least damaging method (to the crank).
so I'd guess that it isn't measuring strain within the crank
What's it measuring then? 😕
That's the thing - I don't know. Typically strain gauges will measure between two known points which is why I mentioned about the epoxy not being in exact positions. With user installation the epoxy could be spread anywhere and potentially miss one or both of the sensor locations. It may be that the epoxy forms one end of the gauge and some part of the body of the device forms the other.
I'd assume that the strain gauges would measure the strain across the backing plate of the unit, and the important thing is for this to be adequately bonded to the crank arm. Must be a tricky thing to get right seeing as 4iiii are the first to make it an end user operation. Assume also they have an installation kit that they are confident in, though it does seem to be issues with the tools that are delaying shipping. I guess there will be a fair share of botched installs to deal with too.
If you look at the installation methodology the little 'wing' things are used by a tool to pull it hard against the crank arm for several hours, I'd hazard a guess that this will distribute the expoxy all over the back. You're not just pressing it on by hand or anything.
I think I'd like some form of backup too. I'd be a bit worried about stone strike on a mountain bike since the unit sits proud of the crank, not so much for it being knocked off but impact damage.
nah, sits in the same place as my Stages, cannot say I've ever worried about a rock strike on that
installation looks a faff, definitely going to be some botched installs
Looks like a reasonable proposition. Might drive prices of other single-sided meters down - hello Vector.
I've been playing with power, HR and the relationship between the two, based on British Cycling training zones. For my personal 20 minute threshold heart rate and power there is a pretty good relationship between zone boundaries:
Power = 2.2 x HR - 100
Of course this assumes steady-state efforts (unlike the Powercal) but is good enough for me to set the Heart Rate Zones in the Garmin so that the graph of Heart Rate can now tell me which power zone I'm in. Until Garmin add a Power graph, of course. Validity is up to Zone 5, as all out efforts are obviously off the scale, but you can feel that anyway.
That HR graph is fantastic, I'll show how I did it on another thread. If you haven't discovered it yet, it will open up a whole new view of dynamic training - so much better than just telling you a number. And you'll see HR change reasonably quickly after effort. Well mine does, YHRMV.
Not mine but here is the graph showing zones. My display shows Instant HR, 30 second Power and Cadence (I ride fixed wheel so this is also related to speed and HR)
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Which could be expensive!
It seems a shame that you can't have a sacrificial casing, but save the electronics, and have (say) a $50 replacement if you change cranks or whatever. I'd need to budget for a new chainset as well, as I don't want to keep my 7800 cranks forever!
It seems a shame that you can't have a sacrificial casing, but save the electronics,
Which is the point I was making above. Everything has a finite life but you'd expect what is essentially a solid state device to have a reasonable lifetime, certainly beyond that of a crank.
t seems a shame that you can't have a sacrificial casing, but save the electronics, and have (say) a $50 replacement if you change cranks or whatever.
Looking at ones who do this, the electronics seems to be the cheap bit. 50 quid for a replacement pedal pod for a Vector for example.
Might drive prices of other single-sided meters down - hello Vector.
540 quid at bike-discount.de ([url= http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/garmin-vector-s-pedal-watt-measuring-system-large-pedal-transmitter-268124?currency=3&delivery_country=190&gclid=CO-8o4b8u8MCFSfItAodgAQAHw ]here[/url]). Getting there.
I think (hope) that the consumable part of the Vectors would be the pedal body - certainly it's what wears out for me on standard Look pedals.
Looking at ones who do this, the electronics seems to be the cheap bit. 50 quid for a replacement pedal pod for a Vector for example.
That's not the strain gauges though - they're in the pedal body.
certainly beyond that of a crank.
Really? Not sure I agree with that - look at all the power meters tied to cranks - SRM, Quarq, Stages etc. I'd have thought longevity will be fine in virtually all instances. But, if you do happen to break a crank - either through a crash, or even more annoyingly through a manufacturing defect, then you're screwed with the 4iiii. I wonder if a crank manufacturer would even try and wriggle out of a warranty claim on the crank itself.
That's not the strain gauges though - they're in the pedal body.
They are in the spindle.
I think (hope) that the consumable part of the Vectors would be the pedal body - certainly it's what wears out for me on standard Look pedals.
Pedal bodies with bearings are replaceable. Electronics pod is replaceable. All are reasonably cheap. It's the spindle with the strain gauges in that's the expensive bit.
They are in the spindle.
Yes, sorry, I meant as in the pedal itself, rather than the pods.
The point is that, as you say, the strain gauges are the expensive bit, and I was suggesting it's a shame you can't somehow decouple those from the plastic housing (or at least the part of the housing you stick epoxy on) so you could reuse it. I guess that doing that introduces an increased likelihood of error.
If it's going to be £ parity with $ price then it's not quite low enough to overcome the negatives for me.
4iiii running into issues with self installation, now you need to send your cranks to them and they'll apply the unit and return, alu cranks only. Not great for those of us outside North America! March delivery now too. They're gonna have to sort that, that's a big blow to any profit I'm sure.
Ouch that is a blow. Hope they can sort it out. Self-installation was always going to be hard to get right. Anyone on here got a pre-order and sending their cranks over?
They're implying they'll swallow any additional costs incurred, but there's a big time component - I imagine that'll be a month or so without cranks.
Well if the product is good I reckon it's still a nicer option than Stages. I'd think I'd be happy enough to source my own cranks (a proper pair!) and send them over to get it installed.
Weren't they also going to do an option where you can get it installed and calibrated at a LBS. Wonder why that's not being offered as an option? Must be properly fiddly.
Clearly something unforeseen has happened - one assumes it's because the placement of the pod was more crucial than they initially thought. as said on the last page, if you get it wrong, despite following their instructions there'll be a lot of grumpy people with ruined pods!
Watteam PowerBeat just got marginally more appealing.
4iiii will have to sort that though, or prices will skyrocket!
stages could essentially kill them off with a $100 drop surely?
Need to be more, $200?
$200 quid price drop and a tube of super glue to install on your own cranks please 🙂
Stages should at least supply a thbe of superglue so you can stick it back on and/or repair the battery cover 😛
I'm now in the market for a Power Meter of some sort, this I fear is going to put me right at the forefront of me becoming obsessed with Watt'idge.
Which bike to stick it on though? CX'er or Roadie? Hmmm..
I will await 4iii and start delving into Stages for a first line of action.
Eeeek, never thought I'd go down this route. 😐
Which bike to stick it on though? CX'er or Roadie? Hmmm..
Something you can use on both?
Not much you can easily switch between both. Spider based, pain changing cranks and chainrings. Hub based, pain changing wheels and tyres and having less than optimal wheel choice. Pedal based, usually different cleats between road and CX so not an easy swap. NDS crank based probably the easiest provided you run the same style chain set and crank length and are happy with single side. Still a pain though. I'd just get two.
Rotor LT may be a nice option for the TCX as it does look good with that chainset 🙂 I don't think you'll be able to glue a 4iiii to it because of the grooves down the back of the crank arm.
prototype Shimano Power Meter, looking like a Pioneer
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Only in its method of mounting - the Pioneer is 90 degrees further round. Could be interesting, reckon it'll a) be years before it's released and b) be ****ing pricey.
Yes, aren't they going the same route as Rotor and mounting the strain gauges inside the crank arm and not just on the surface? I guess you can only do this if you manufacture the crank arm.
Had heard Shimano were developing but that's the first pic I've seen. You sure about that Njee? I reckon we'll see different price points in a 105/Ultegra/Dura Ace stylee with different metrics available on the higher end stuff, maybe basic PM on 105, PM with left/right balance on Ultegra then all singing & dancing efficiency measurements on Dura Ace like the Panasonic.
Certainly not sure, pure speculation. But Shimano won't release anything until it's absolutely ready, and I can't believe its close when that looks like a rough prototype that's just broken cover for the first time. Price... Could be wrong, and the tiered pricing could be good, just suspect they'll aim for premium.
Certainly interesting times either way, We could eventually see PM's come as standard equipment when not long ago you were talking about £1000's! I wonder how many PM's Pioneer have sold? Their offering is up there with SRM price wise.
I'd be quite surprised if they do tiered pricing. My bet would be a DA only model for at least the first few years of release.
That was my thinking, and with a Dura Ace label on it, it won't be cheap, leaves them nowhere to go.
they only have to come in under SRM prices for it to get bought
Shimano power meter at Ultegra level? nah never or >10 years
I'd say 2-3 years time max for Ultegra. The electronics costs peanuts, and shimano are far better placed to absorb R&D costs than any existing power meter maker. There's a similar level of technology in an ultegra DI2 mech as a power meter, and they knock them out for not much more than £100 quid now.
I'd say that long till we see it for sale on DA. You'll have at least a season on the pro bikes before release, and that isn't going to be this year. Ultegra, I'd not hold my breath. They may even do it as a non-group item but base it on DA.