I've been trying to decide between the Stages and P2M classic powermeters and still struggling to figure out what the general consensus is.
The choice is either the Stages 105 for £475 or the P2M with FSA Gossamer cranks for £570.
I'm leaning towards the P2M but just wanted to see if people reckon it's worth the extra £100 or so?
Stages for me has been faultless since I got it in July. I was leaning towards the P2M but in the end the price, weight, and the fact that noone can really tell you've got a PM sold me on the Stages.
Interesting to see what will happen to prices. I guess all the imminent budget PMs are going to worry the likes of Stages a lot more than SRM
True, but pricing for Stages is exaggerated in the UK. Same prices pretty much in $/EUR/£ so we are at the end of the chain of losing out. I'd be quite surprised if any of the other PM's come to the UK with properly budget prices, but then I guess this depends more on the distribution channels rather than the products itself.
Looks like [url= http://4iiii.com/product/precision/ ]4iiii[/url] have updated their website, all the options now showing, they look to have hit their price point and will ship on 10th December, wonder if they'll ship abroad, my guess is not in the first instance. I'm very interested though!
True, but pricing for Stages is exaggerated in the UK. Same prices pretty much in $/EUR/£
I assumed it was more to do with the crankset manufacturers distribution? The difference in price between stages models is pretty much the same as the difference in the cranksets. Yet the non drive side crank is near identical between 105-ultegra-DA, different asthetics/shape, but the same manufacturing process and close in weight, the money's mostly in the chainrings.
In the USA you get a chainset with the powermeter, so the pricing makes sense. I'm guessing the madison/shimano distribution agreement won't let them sell a chainset in the UK (so there's probably a [s]mountain [/s] [i]small hillock[/i] of shimano driveside cranks at stages HQ.
Allegedly you can't use any other Stages (or otherwise) LH crank with a Dura Ace 9000 chainset, so no cost savings there either. Can't see why myself. Spline pattern is the same, unless the crank thickness (and thus axle length) is different.
If the 4iiii proves reliable (DC Rainmaker was impressed) I reckon they're away. Interested they say they'll work on carbon cranks too.
If the 4iiii proves reliable (DC Rainmaker was impressed) I reckon they're away.
If this is the case, and the price ends up under £400, I'd order one today... possibly two!
If this is the case, and the price ends up under £400, I'd order one today... possibly two!
A friend is moving to the States imminently, so I'm sorted 😀
Hmm I've a friend moving back from the US soon 🙂 Though given all the grief people had with Stages when they first came out I'm tempted to wait till there's some UK support.
Wonder if this will spur Stages on to release a DIY version of their PM?
Oh and...
I'm leaning towards the P2M but just wanted to see if people reckon it's worth the extra £100 or so?
I've got the P2M and really like it. I wanted a new chainset too so that sort of evened out the price a bit against the Stages. It's a PM, it works, gives about the same readings as my PowerTap, not much more to it really. Happen to like the look of the Rotor crankset too, bit different to the usual Shimano cranks. I'm tempted to get another but may just hold on and see what happens with the 4iii.
Hadn't realised you needed a torque wrench to install Vectors, one of the things that appealed was the abilty to quickly swap them between bikes
Just swap the crank -as per Stages - HTH 😉
Happy with my Stages, but still happy with my PowerCal too for when I can't be bothered to swap crank (which is most of the time.
Or to revisit the carbon crank functionality at least.
Dare I say it looks like a pretty foolproof installation. Only thing that's not ideal is that you can't remove it to transfer to another crank, but you can't with Stages either. Probably means I need to buy a DA9000 crank for my Madone, as I don't intend keeping that forever, nor do I really want a 10 year old 7800 chainset on whatever I buy next!
Only thing that's not ideal is that you can't remove it to transfer to another crank, but you can't with Stages either.
Shame they can't sort out some solvent to remove it. I guess that's the nice thing about the Watteam, you just buy another (relatively cheap) strain gauge and swap the electronic pod thing over. Looks like that's still a fair few months away though.
Dare I say it looks like a pretty foolproof installation. Only thing that's not ideal is that you can't remove it to transfer to another crank, but you can't with Stages either. Probably means I need to buy a DA9000 crank for my Madone, as I don't intend keeping that forever, nor do I really want a 10 year old 7800 chainset on whatever I buy next!
This is the tart in me's real reason for wanting a P2M rotor 3D+ (or the tune/BOR models). It's new, it's shiny, and it won't look out of date within shimano's upgrade cycle! That's why I've currently got an FSA SL-K rather than 7800 chainset.
Shame they can't sort out some solvent to remove it. I guess that's the nice thing about the Watteam, you just buy another (relatively cheap) strain gauge and swap the electronic pod thing over. Looks like that's still a fair few months away though.
It's just epoxy, so no solvent will disolve it as it's one* long molecule. That's why you can wash away the unset glue with acetone, but not once it's polymerised.
*actualy several million/billion, but hundreds/thousands of times less than the number in conventional glue.
Shame they can't sort out some solvent to remove it. I guess that's the nice thing about the Watteam, you just buy another (relatively cheap) strain gauge and swap the electronic pod thing over. Looks like that's still a fair few months away though.
Aye, they're saying summer now, and as DCR points out the only company to have ever stuck to their production schedule was Stages who (like 4iiii) announced their product at the 11th hour. The Watteam looks good (well it doesn't, it [i]looks [/i]crap, but I like the idea), but I wonder if we'll see creeping prices and production delays.
Totally agree on the solvent though, and I'm not convinced you couldn't get something in there that would do it. I wonder if it's more to do with the damage you'd do to the surface though and how that would impact a future installation, rather than a genuine inability to remove it. If it's that reliant on 'feeling' what's happening to the crank, I imagine a load of glue residue on the back, or damage to the surface of the pod could have a marked effect.
This is the tart in me's real reason for wanting a P2M rotor 3D+ (or the tune/BOR models). It's new, it's shiny, and it won't look out of date within shimano's upgrade cycle! That's why I've currently got an FSA SL-K rather than 7800 chainset.
I know what you mean, but on the road I really like groupsets to match entirely, and I think the 9000 cranks are lovely!
It's just epoxy, so no solvent will disolve it as it's one* long molecule. That's why you can wash away the unset glue with acetone, but not once it's polymerised.
Ooo good answer. So TINAS, is there nothing that would do it?
but on the road I really like groupsets to match entirely, and I think the 9000 cranks are lovely!
Not a huge fan, but they are a vast improvement on the fugly 7900 cranks. They still look pretty awful on most things other than modern plastic bikes IMO.
Why is the power tap/hub based meter out of fashion at the moment?
Crank is no good to me, due to leg damage, so I use powertap, but I'm curious what the advantages of stages etc are? Weight, price or something else?
Ooo good answer. So TINAS, is there nothing that would do it?
There probably is, but I spec epoxy lined pipes for when the stuff in them disolves stainles steel, so not much. Most methods for removing epoxy (apart from pysicaly removing it with a hammer/knife/etc) usualy work on breaking down the bond between the epoxy and what it's bonded to, for example on wood you can soak it in acetone and it will come off, but the epoxy itself will be in one lump, obviously that doesn't work on metal as it wont absorb the acetone. There's a few epoxy specific solvents, but they're not the kind of thing you'd get in B&Q, and even then they tend to soften it by going after any unreacted leftovers in the resin rather than disolve it.
Why is the power tap/hub based meter out of fashion at the moment?
You either need several wheels (one for training, one for racing on windy days, one for crits, one for TT's, etc), or comprimise and race on slow wheels, wear out race wheels etc.
Whereas a stages you could in theory just swap the NDS crank between your bikes (as long as you have compatible cranks).
Also, since the advent of the G3 Powertaps their reliability seems to have dropped of a cliff - ask Paligap what their turnaround is for a repair at the moment!
That's a shame, as they also changed the internals to DT240. My 5 year old PowerTap has attrotious bearing life, but is actually indestructible.
Hopefully they'll get to a price point where it's not worth the hassle swapping between bikes. $399 would likely do that for me.
Is a shame about the power tap. Didn't they get brought out? I'm reluctant to use mine off the turbo now in case it needs servicing sooner!
I read (in the comments I think) that removing the 4iiii damages the unit, if a warranty issue arises they're going to take the crankset in through an authorised dealer, remove it and re-install a new unit. It's extra work to prep a crankset that's already had a power meter fitted though hence taking it in.
Is a shame about the power tap. Didn't they get brought out? I'm reluctant to use mine off the turbo now in case it needs servicing sooner!
About 10 years ago! I guess in the drive to make them cheaper they made them, well, cheaper!
I used the older ones without issue for years but they were all the older 12mm axle version which they weren't doing an 11-spd freehub body for. When I went 11spd on the road bikes I thought about G3s, but just beforehand my other half had bought one, and that was knackered straight out of the box! Cracking QC there, Saris 😀
Sold all mine and went down the P2M route, very happy customer here.
replaced Stages battery on June 24th, turned on yesterday and it was flat, did get a low battery warning last ride out about 70km - only done 510km, around 10 rides
Bit crap.
indeed, about to fit my 4th battery to my g3 as well, which i bought in May and have done around 5000km on
I found that SR44 batteries were infinitely better than LR44s in my PowerTap - Timpson were able to sell me the right ones, lasted thousands of miles.
Wow that's shockingly bad.
^^ i just replaced the stock CR2032 with like for like - whats an SR44?
SR44s fitted the older Powertaps, the new ones only take CR2032.
Aah, didn't realise they'd changed.
[url= http://www.bikerumor.com/2014/10/19/ib14-rpm2-power-meter-shoe-insole-inserts-measure-force-everywhere/ ]RPM2 insole power meters?[/url] Be interested to get the DC Rainmaker low down. The comments on BikeRumor (always a tough crowd) seem worried about durability, which I'm not sure about, particularly on the road I don't think I've ever worn out a set of decent insoles.
Only works with iPhone/Android though - not Garmin (or other head unit) compatible, guess because of the fancy graphics, although you'd think you could get most of the 'common' metrics on an ANT+ head unit.
Price seems reasonable to me. I'm hovering over the buy button on a 4iiii Precision still!
The insole looks like an interesting idea, as you say though I'd be waiting until someone else has tried and tested them first.
I tried ordering a Stages from Powermeter24 as they were about £100 cheaper than the UK suppliers but they kept bumping my delivery date back so I've cancelled the order. The problem now is that they don't seem too keen to refund me despite a couple of emails asking them 🙁
I've been looking at the 4iii Precision but it seems you can't order it on their site, at least I can't!
I reckon that even with shipping and possibly import duty it still shouldn't be much over the £300 mark which seems pretty good.
I've not actually gone through the process, but got as far as it calculating UK shipping ($54 IIRC), and that seemed to work, so I imagine the final few steps would have worked!
i'm waiting on [url= http://4iiii.com/product/precision/ ]this[/url] self installable and works on my carbon sram cranks, I guess accurancy isn't vastly important, as long as its consistent.....$750 for both bikes
edit: beaten to it, 4iiii looks good though, I wonder how weather proof it is
Interested to know how you get on with it Chris - that's what's being discussed it the 3 posts before yours!
I like the idea of the footbeds. Easiest option for use with multiple bikes (or so it seems)
Most meters which have looked like they'll be ideal to move around have eventually proven significantly harder - Vectors need a torque wrench etc etc, someone else did a cleat/shoe power meter using Speedplay cleats, but I agree, if this genuinely can be moved around it would be good. Still needs a proper interface though IMO.
Not being ANT+ compatible does seem like a major omission. Shall await the reviews. And what if it doesn't fit your shoes? Can you take a scissors to it? And I guess you might not be able to change between shoes if they are slightly different shapes 😕
So you have pedal, shoe/cleat, insole, crank, spider, hub, hasn't there been a BB based one too? I can't think of one that wouldn't be a pain to transfer at some point. I'd still rather see a decent crank based one (like the 4iiii) at a price that would allow me to put one on every bike and do away with the faff of trying to move them about.
Can you take a scissors to it?
So the BikeRumor article says, they do size ranges, which you trim appropriately, but yes, I know my winter boots have very different insole shapes to my road shoes (for example).
Ergomo was BB based years ago, and a bit shit. There's a new one floating around that goes inside a SRAM/FSA (IIRC) spindle.
I reckon Precision have got the biggest potential here. DC Rainmaker spoke highly of his pre-production sample.
Yes, if they really can do it well at price I'd probably order two or three of them!
Well you can order a pair anyway, and either fit them to two cranks on one bike, or one crank on two bikes. For $700 you're laughing!
Wonder if you can fit one to the DS and another to the NDS, then run both together or swap the NDS to another bike and run both seperately? That would be pretty cool.
Power tap started drifting with the calibration number - back it goes 🙁
Should be able to, yes.
My G3 went around Spring this year.
I never really used it outside so now just use the TrainerRoad estimate, which although not comparable year on year does seem at least to be consistent.
Road bike cranks are carbon Campy so no Stages option there, quite like the pedal based systems but see a fair few go back to Garmin.
Seems the reliability on PowerTaps really did go downhill, mines been perfect for years!
only bought it in May
Is that one of the new ones? My old PT Pro has been faultless in the 3 years or so I've had it. Hardly ever used outside though. Wouldn't be too disappointed if it did fail though as it would give me an excuse to buy a kickr 🙂
I've been drowning my PowerTap in hub deep water periodically for 5 years with nary a grumble. It does weigh a ton though (literally, my wheel is 1000kg), and the bearings are dire!
Yer G3 part of a cycleops wheelset that were heavily reduced in Evans
Been used in the wet, but then I wouldn't expect it to fail because of that
Damn right, they're hardly cheap.
ROTOR Power LT all the way, just got one, awesome and light!
Have heard some less than great feedback about Stages from certain shops now stuck with a fair bit of stock. Leaking badly being one. I think many of those sold came back to them under warranty.
Rotor UK warranty the cranks too.
The Rotors sound ropey as ****, read a post from DC Rainmaker saying despite numerous SW updates direct from the manufacturer that one side still reads incorrectly!
I think LT is the one side only, so may work!
Not read the reviews but I would be quite tempted as I do like the rotor cranks on my p2m.
A quick PSA. Notice Wiggle are doing a price drop thing on the old PowerTap Pro hubs. Down to 350 quid now at 50% off. I am sorely tempted to get one at that price. Better than the newer G3 supposedly.
First rides last night and this morning with Stages. Easy to fit, seamless pairing with the Edge 800 just lets hope it's watertight. Tempted to wind some electrical tape around it but not sure that's wise?
Better than the newer G3 supposedly.
Mine's a Pro, and shit bearings aside it's been faultless.
ROTOR Power LT all the way, just got one, awesome and light!
It makes more sense in the UK than other countries (inverse of Stages - Rotor's US pricing is daft), but it's still quite a lot for a left only PM I think.
I'm still waiting for first hand reports on the 4iiii Precision, and to see what UK pricing is.
Mine's a Pro, and shit bearings aside it's been faultless.
Same experience with my Pro really, though it rarely gets to go outdoors. Should probably change the bearings too, is that a back to the dealer or a home service job?
I'm still waiting for first hand reports on the 4iiii Precision, and to see what UK pricing is.
Much the same here, though that Pro is a great deal. Gets reduced by 1% each night too until they are all gone. I wonder how low they'll go? If they get to 300 quid I'm definitely having one for a training wheel.
@adsh - never had leakage problems with my stages & ridden in all conditions. The batteries don't last the time stages claim maybe 50-100 hours. I did have a problem with my XTR crank battery was draining after every ride this turned out to be a connection problem. Stages were great with feedback sent it of to merlin for warranty got new one back with the week and had no probs with it.
is that a back to the dealer or a home service job?
If you believe them it's back to dealer, I've done mine (including the freehub ones) a number of times with no issues.
If they get to 300 quid I'm definitely having one for a training wheel.
What's the one that rarely goes outside if not a training wheel? 😕
[url= http://www.wiggle.co.uk/cycleops-powertap-pro-hub-only/ ]Clicky[/url] for anyone interested, I couldn't find it searching on the site, had to go via Google.
If you believe them it's back to dealer, I've done mine (including the freehub ones) a number of times with no issues.
I may have to give it a go, does feel like it's about had it.
What's the one that rarely goes outside if not a training wheel?
Current one sits permanently on the turbo bike. Be nice to have one for an outdoors winter training wheel.
For the stages, I cut six inches of inner tube, dropped this over the crank and sealed one end with black insulating tape. It's probably overkill but has been faultless. I broke two early devices so wanted to take no chances.
Battery changes are pretty easy to. I got my idea from the Bionic Man toy's arm 😉
I've had my Stages power meter for about 4 weeks and I'm on my 5th battery. Seems a common problem, however, it was my understanding that it had been resolved. I'm return in it to the shop tomorrow and if the replacement isn't any better then I'll be getting a refund.
Powertap bearings are a piece of cake to change. 10 minutes tops, no need to send back to Paligap.
Has anyone bought from powermeters24 ?
Well took a punt on one of the cheap Powertap Pro's on the wiggle price drop. Held on and got it for £330 in the end, not bad I reckon, and all sold now. No issues whatsoever with the one I've had for about three years now. Going to build it up with an Archetype rim and some DT Swiss Competitions. That'll do nicely for the winter training bike 🙂
Has anyone bought from powermeters24 ?
I ordered one from them but they shifted the delivery date a couple of times so I cancelled the order.
It took about 8-10 emails and about a month before they refunded the order despite them saying it would be within a day or two!
Needless to say, I'd avoid them.
I see the 4iiii Precision PM's are sold out. Does anyone know if that's 'em just sold out of pre-orders or has product actually been delivered?
I didn't think 4iii were shipping till sometime in December, so assume that's pre-orders.
Yep, and they are sorting UK distribution from Spring 15 IIRC, so presumably there'll be a lead time until they're up to date. Bodes well.
Any idea who that's going to be? Just hope there's not some ridiculous UK markup.
I got my Stages from PM24. Came quickly enough, arrived on a Saturday. When I broke the battery cover, they posted a new one out same day, so great service IME. Battery cover clips are very tiny/fragile - I'd think about protecting it as above with an innertube if used off-road with rocks flying about.
The first battery lasted 4mths, based on 12-15h/wk of use (200h-ish?). I replaced it with a 'name' brand so hopefully it will last about the same (I've read somewhere that not all 2032 cells are created equal but who knows...)
I'd think about protecting it as above with an innertube if used off-road with rocks flying about.
Was thinking this about rocks. Crank arms lead a tough life and seem to get the most and biggest knocks from rocks. A cut down neoprene chainstay protector with a zip tie either side would work well?
A cut down neoprene chainstay protector with a zip tie either side would work well?
6" of inner tube is just as good and can be slipped over the crank with the pedal removed (unlike a chainstay protector). I used to seal both ends, bit that was overkill, now I tape the end nearest the BB for neatness. I added a Stages sticker for that pro look as well 😉
Any idea who that's going to be? Just hope there's not some ridiculous UK markup.
Not yet, can't see it being mainstream though, which is a shame. At the moment they will sell to Europe (unlike Stages, who never offered direct sales), so it may be prudent to get an order in now!
I'm waiting to see if I can get one at UK trade prices (assuming they compare favourably), if not I'll get one sent to a friend in the US!
Think I'll wait for the second batch. Doesn't seem too bad if you do import based on 399 dollars...
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I was thinking more if they do a Stages that may not be an option - sort UK distribution at a higher cost, then stop selling direct and force you to use their local distribution channels.
Agree that based on the present situation it all seems quite sensible. I'd get a pair though - you could install on two bikes, or have a proper double reading, and it's only $350 more.
Very interested in 4iiii and think two pods will be more than any of us mere mortals will need. 4iiii have an established background in producing outdoor electronics which Stages lacked. No doubt the latter will have to substantially reduce prices to stay competitive. I read that Stages have a possible 40% reduction built in and will maintain profit!
Can't wait for 2015 dog fight.