Sherwood without power meter - estimated 20m weighted power 270W
Sherwood with a Stages - 20m weighted power 300W
so not that far out, thats the quickest comparison i can make
Dalby - 2:11 lap on the Krampus in the pouring rain - 20m estimated 129W - no HRM data, so i assume some of the estimate comes from that
Dalby - 1:47 lap on Tallboy with Stages 20m 279W
DanW. powercal uses an algorithm based on HR and rate of change of HR. It is rather neat and i read the patent a few times. I use it on 30 sec, but i use my stages on 10 sec averaging
Thanks for all the info TiRed- always interesting to learn more about this type of thing
Powercal doesn't use calibration for subject. They tried but found it added no additional accuracy.
Was just reading that over at dcrainmaker. Wonder how it would work out power then as my HR at a specific power would be very different to someone else's HR at the same power. Am puzzled. Shall give it a go though and see how it does.
I thought that too. So i tested it on a 1st cat racer in a club chaingang with his srm. It was still accurate for summary measures. It is not a power meter, but is better than it has any right to be. I have one on circulation in the club - out with a tt'ist this week, and just ordered another after my HR strap died.
Running two head units to compare was a bigger expense!
Thanks TiRed, sounds like witchcraft to me! I'll run it alongside the powertap and see how it does.
Still no closer to deciding on a proper PM though. The Stages was edging it by being easily swappable between bikes (though complicated by running different crank lengths on different bikes - and you can swap the P2M between cranks) but I've now heard some mixed reviews from club members on theirs.
Sherwood without power meter - estimated 20m weighted power 270W
Sherwood with a Stages - 20m weighted power 300Wso not that far out, thats the quickest comparison i can make
That's quite a way out! IME Strava power is utter bobbins.
This is easy.
One is pretty much futureproof to all bottom bracket standards, measures power from both legs and hasn't had a myriad of issues when it comes to water(though this has been fixed for most, not all).
The other one is a bit cheaper.
Look at the iBike Newton. Accurate, easily moves from bike to bike, fits any bike. And inexpensive. www.ibikesports.com
The other one is a bit cheaper
That's the thing though, it's more expensive unless you can pick one up in the US. The advantage of Stages is weight - it's only 20g, P2M is more like 200g, unless you get the Type-S which does cost more.
Anyone tried the Vector pedals? My LBS tells me they have some demo ones, along with a Quaq, so may give them a try. The price is a bit off putting but the ease of switching between bikes makes them tempting. Though looks like even the Garmin team don't seem to like them much.
Great topic so far, I've seen the benefit power training brings and am wondering if it's worth it for me or not. Will be over in Canada in sept so considering power meter purchasing then.
Anyone tried the Vector pedals? Do seem good despite the price.
As for the iBike Newton, nice idea but there is an assumption that all road surfaces are equal, which is definitely not true around here. And I assume useless with the bike on the turbo.
New review of the iBike Newton over at [url= http://road.cc/content/review/122169-ibike-newton-powerstroke#comment-267733 ]road.cc[/url]. I quite like the idea, but 780 quid?! Ok, you don't need an additional cycle computer, but most people have one already and the one you get is a bit rubbish. Shame they couldn't just do a small box with the sensors in it that clamps to the bars and talks to a garmin/iphone, and charge about 250 quid for it.
I'm still undecided between P2M and Stages, but have just noticed powermeter24.de have 15% off the Stages FSA and SRAM versions (ie less than 600€ + shipping). I have to replace a borked crank anyway - an FSA sl-k + Stages would be odd (carbon DS, ali NDS!) but would make for a pretty light solution.
Also spotted this (as yet unreleased) idea which measures power at the cleat http://www.brimbrothers.com/
Looks interesting. Speedplay only at launch though. "Comparable with other products" is delightfully vague pricetag too!
Had to change battery today on my stages ultegra for first time absolutely no way u get 200 hours as stages state I counted my hours from garmin connect uploads bought in May done about 56 hours so slightly disappointing. This is offset though by the fact that I had a spare battery which took at best 20 secs to change over and cost virtually nish.
Heard they had some problem with the auto power off, may be worth a software update?
That is bad! Thought the PowerTap was poor!
Yeah gonna do a firmware update, got one running on an xtr too see how that goes...will report
Looks like [url= http://www.bikerumor.com/2014/07/09/new-rotor-power-lt-light-crankset-saves-weight-w-single-left-sided-sensor/ ]Rotor have a new lower cost version (E990) of their PM[/url]. Single sided now on the NDS like the Stages, but you do get a full crankset for the price. I'd still probably go P2M.
I'm inclined to agree. Quarq have been playing with their prices too (basically by omitting chainrinrgs), their Riken isn't too expensive.
The battery in my xtr stages went yesterday about the same as ultegra 50+ hours though 24 of those was mayhem solo 🙂 updated firmware on both now see how they go. Also got a battery life indicator now as part of firmware update.
By the way, if anyone is considering a Stages, worth checking this out...
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I think this rules out fitting one to my TCR as it would foul the Di2 battery mounted under the chainstay.
sub 1000km on my stock stages battery
That's pretty poor, reckon I've got 3500 miles on the battery in my P2M and it's still going.
sub 1000km on my stock stages battery
That can't be typical, that'd be a months fairly modest use!
That's pretty dire. Considering I've yet to change the battery in my HRM strap after about 3 years' use! I've read of a battery bug in the FW, maybe isn't going to sleep.
I've gone for the Stages in the end. It'll do what I want it to, and it's the cheapest option for me, even after having to buy a compatible crank (a cheapish s/h FSA K Force) - should come in a lot lighter than the P2M too.
Of course, I've just noticed Mrblobby's graphic on the previous page 😐 so fingers crossed it's going to fit! (Crank hasn't arrived yet to measure up)
After much dithering here I've gone P2M. Went for the new Type S one on a Rotor 3D crankset. Not too bothered about a few extra grams as it's going on the TT bike.
Anyone know what delivery is like on these?
Delivery is exactly on the day they say it will be. Germans!
(Mine took about 10 days from order confirmation)
Soooo...
I took advantage of Powermeter24's Stages discount to pick up the SRAM X9 version for about £470 vs £600 in the UK.
I have been umming and ahhing about this for a while but with seeing the German price and being able to get a brand new X9 driveside crank arm for silly money from a guy on ebay not 10 miles down the road I took it as a sign of divine intervention 😀
Just waiting on a direct mount chainring and some matte black crankskins to cover up the branding and it will be good to go 😀
PS: For any weightweenies wondering... the stock SRAM X9 cranks arms are 553g so with the direct mount ring it should be just 14g heavier than my Rotor 3D with Extralite Octaone and alu bolts (or 34g heavier with the Stages sensor). Not too shabby and the X9 arms look alright in the flesh
I bought a stages...
Didn't even work! I mailed stages and they asked me 'when you calibrate it is the number shown 0?' When I answered yes they just told me to take it back as the strain gauges were clearly borked.
Not sure if this is another common issue or not. Customer service was spot on, but a bit shoddy that I waited for a month for delivey and it arrived broken!
Partly why I went P2M. Quite a few in our local club have had issues with theirs, which put me off a little.
Rotor LT available to pre-order at [url= http://www.sigmasport.co.uk/item/Rotor/3Dand43-Power-LT-Chainset-No-Rings/3RST ]sigmasport[/url] for £799 (better price than I expected!) Same UK price as the DA Stages, and you get both crank arms, pretty good I reckon. Though is BB30 so may need a new BB to accommodate. If I was going to buy a stages I think I'd now be seriously considering this.
Edit... reading the dcrainmaker comment on it...
While their existing full ROTOR Power system is priced very high at $2,350, at least it was in the ballpark of other similar system (albeit the high end of that ballpark). In the case of the LT though, it’s basically double the price of the Stages Power Meter ($699). And also in the case of the ROTOR LT, there’s nothing it really offers beyond what Stages can do. In fact, one could (easily) argue it does less. For example, ROTOR doesn’t dual-transmit ANT+ and Bluetooth Smart like Stages does. Nor does it include Stages new high-speed data mode (targeted at track athletes). Nor can you install it on 3rd party cranks like Stages can be.
I suspect his view may change somewhat if he were to consider the UK/EU price of the Stages!
Does anyone with Stages have some advice to get the best out of it? For example there seem to be improvements in battery life with the auto-off and so on... Should a firmware update before the first use be all that is needed to make sure everything is running as smoothly as possible? Any other tricks or tips to consider?
DanW, any problems you're trying to sort out, or just general musings? Firmware upgrade if there is one available sounds like a good idea regardless. Does sound like they rushed it to market a bit and are slowly sorting out issues in the firmware. Nice that you can do it all over the Bluetooth via an app.
Should be getting the power2max this week, which will hopefully just work!
What's the reason Stages can't sell a chainset in this country, is it the distributor network (i.e. they can't because madison have the rights to shimano, fisher SRAM and windwave FSA?).
Could mean that the Rotor crank doesn't suffer the same price inflation as the Stages.
I wonder if Shimano have anything like stages up their sleave to compete with Quark/SRAM. Heck they could install them OEM on DA cranks, still be cheaper than a lot of the competition and probably kill off a lot of the PM market.
Shimano have [url= http://www.bikerumor.com/2014/02/17/shimano-files-patents-for-powermeter-cranksets-measures-effort-in-multiple-planes/ ]filed patents[/url] so they are definitely thinking about it. Sounds similar to the Rotor one with the strain gauges embedded in the crank arms. Can't imagine it being significantly cheaper than anything else out there though. I do wonder if pricing of new models is just aligned with competition, or whether these things are really that expensive to make and sell?
You might be right about Stages, I just assumed they chose not to. Also assumed price inflation was more to do with being an US product imported into the UK.
Odd (or maybe somehow makes sense commercially) that Rotor flog OE cranks to P2M, and are now undercutting them with their own power meter.
My Stages came on Saturday, "just worked" after updating the FW with the android app. I did think it was a dud, as after installing it I could pair it to the garmin but when spinning the cranks on the workstand neither cadence nor power registered. Worked fine on a test run though.
The battery cover o ring had a healthy smear of grease on it, let's see how we get on...
The comparable Rotor Power is a lot more expensive than the P2M. The Power LT is a bit cheaper than the P2M but is more comparable with, and roughly the same price as, the Stages.
hi Bob
Mine doesn't register power or cadence either, but it does sync to the Garmin. Issue is it calibrates to zero, which I'm told isn't correct.
Did you have the same issue, or did yours just not even get picked up by the garmin?
And...
Can you update the firmwear from a PC? It only appears to work from an Iphone which is a bit rubbish (I have a samsung galaxy)
any ideas?
If it show 0 after calibration it's borked AFAIK. Drop Stages a mail, you should have an answer by tomorrow.
You can update over their Android app, but you must be on Android 4.4 (kitkat) to use it.
Mine only registered once pedalling on the road. I'm guessing it needs some force to wake it up (not just spinning cranks by hand) to avoid battery drain.
DanW, any problems you're trying to sort out, or just general musings?Firmware upgrade if there is one available sounds like a good idea regardless.
Nice that you can do it all over the Bluetooth via an app.
It was general musing really based on a few comments here saying that certain things like battery life were improved with a firmware update. Was just curious if there was anything to check or do before you to be a pain free as possible (still waiting for the Stages X9 to arrive).
Hadn't even given it a thought for example that I don't have the facilities to actually do a firmware update! At least I don't think so 😕 I have an HTC One X running Android 4.2.2 and Bluetooth 4.0. I've searched and can not find an android app but it sounds like I need a newer version of the Android software anyway. Might need to bug a friend with an IPhone to update the firmware...
I update the firmware using my neighbours iphone as I use android phone that isnt 4.4 & iPad 2 isn't Bluetooth 4. Works fine recently updated & all is good.
P2M finally arrived. Easy enough to install with the Rotor 3D cranks. First session on the turbo with the PT wheel running too, reads a fairly consistent 10W higher than the PT, but that is sort of what I'd expect as one is at the crank and the other the hub. Happy so far 🙂
[url= http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/power2max-classic-power-meter-prices-reduced-41852/ ]Interesting...[/url]
I'm sorely tempted, surprised they're focusing on the more expensive ones though, I'd have thought this gives Stages back a big market share.
Maybe clearing out old stock of the classic ahead of bringing down the price of the Type S? Though that is wishful thinking.
Hmm is tempting to pick up a classic for that price though, swap it onto the TT, then put my new Type S on the TCR with some new 3D+ cranks.
Maybe clearing out old stock of the classic ahead of bringing down the price of the Type S? Though that is wishful thinking.
If they're struggling to keep up with demand for the Type S I can't see they'll reduce the price, must say I'm surprised though.
Yeah, even if they don't sell much of the classic, it's good to have something at that price point to get people considering P2M and looking at the options, then they'll up-sell themselves to the Type S. That's pretty much what happened to me 🙂
Edit: Blimey 699 euro for the Gossamer, I could just about justify that for the winter bike too 😕
will they sell the power2max meter without the crank? just the spider? as my whole reason of not getting stages is because it wont work on my x0 cranks, of which I have two sets of....
edit, only cheaper on the road versions, but my question sorta stands, seems they only offer on rotor cranks 🙁
Yeah, the 590 euro price is just the P2M spider without cranks. You just need to have compatible cranks and get the right version. I don't know about the X0 cranks but it's fairly easy to take on and off the Rotor cranks, just a splined interface with a big locknut on the back.
ok I understand now, its a shame they don't offer a mtb sram version, would have been sorted then!
The P2M's look to be a pretty good price, I'm just trying to decide whether or not it's worth me getting one 🙂
Ooh that's a bit cheap eh! Considering a winter bike and would love a P2M on both road bikes.
ok I understand now, its a shame they don't offer a mtb sram version, would have been sorted then!
could you not use the s900 model with sram mtb cranks? the spline interface is the same, of course, you are limited to the chainring size, but 34t is ok with a 42-10 out back - im sure ive seen a 33t narrow wide 110mm bcd chainring somewhere as well?
this is cheap as well
as is the G3
Fetha make the chainring
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from this thread on MTBR
http://forums.mtbr.com/xc-racing-training/power2max-mtb-power-meter-889731.html
m sure ive seen a 33t narrow wide 110mm bcd chainring somewhere as well?
I wouldn't have thought so, it needs an even number of teeth to be narrow/wide.
I just had the power meter discussion with the wife and almost had permission for a stages....would much prefer the p2m though.
I wouldn't have thought so, it needs an even number of teeth to be narrow/wide.
typo yer? i even mention 34t chainring further back in the same sentence
but [b]34t[/b] is ok with a 42-10 out back - im sure ive seen a 33t narrow wide 110mm bcd chainring somewhere as well?
Looks like the Verve InfoCrank is [url= http://road.cc/content/news/117220-verve-cycling-launch-infocrank-power-meter ]coming soon[/url]. Curious that it's 110BCD only initially. And the price, well it's sort of in line with what's already out there, which is a bit of a shame.
First look at the Rotor LT over at [url= http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/rotor-lt-power-meter-first-look-41985/ ]bikeradar[/url]. Not a perticularly insightful piece. If I was looking at a Stages I'd definitely be considering one of these too.
Meanwhile, happy with my new P2M 🙂
just a stages with everything outback as they have obviously seen people have issues with clearance
like a surly krampus 🙁
Another hat in the ring. Just been reading about the [url= http://watteam.com ]WATTEAM[/url] PM. Looks interesting. No idea how far from market they are, but a price of $499 would make things interesting (though no doubt will end up closer to 600 quid by the time the importers take a slice.) Looks a bit fragile for MTB maybe.
Not sure how the sensor attaches to the crank, maybe you have to bond it yourself? Also not sure how it caters for different cranks, seems to suggest you have to somehow configure/calibrate it for your setup.
Just found a video too...
Garmin jumping on the single sided cut price bandwagon. A [url= http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/08/eurobike/garmin-introduces-cheaper-one-sided-vector-s-power-meter-plus-new-data-geek_342729 ]single sided Vector[/url] announced at Eurobike. 900 dollars for one vector pedal.
The Watteam looks very interesting, a single Vector could be good too.
Guy I know is having real problems with his Vectors, he swapped 'em from his TT bike to his road and back again and now they're reading about 80-100W low, power was plausible on his TT bike and road bike but after swapping 'em back they're reading low. He's tried reinstalling 'em but no joy. Not sure if it's one, or both.
Do wonder if there is a problem when most of the Garmin team don't even run the vectors.
Hadn't realised you needed a torque wrench to install Vectors, one of the things that appealed was the abilty to quickly swap them between bikes, and stick them on the MTB for the odd ride etc. Less keen if that's likely (as it seems) to introduce problems. If they are that torque sensitive I'd be looking at your friend's torque wrench MF!
Maybe they're just sick of club TT's 😛 , I've not seen him in a while so not sure if he's tried a different torque wrench, bit of a head scratcher, meant to ask him if it was just one pedal or both. I remember reading DC Rainmaker talking about the effect incorrect torque had on 'em in his review, knowing Garmin it'll be software...
Blimey a $399 power meter by [url= http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2014/09/4iiiis-introduces-precision.html ]4iiii announced at Interbike[/url]. Even that ends up being £399 that's pretty impressive. Looks a lot like a Stages, other than you glue it on yourself.
Does look impressive! Along with the Watteam Power Beat and the Xpedo Thrust E.
Not sure it'll work on a Trek Madone though.
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You've got to love the guy!
Would really like a PM on the MTB...I wonder if my exhaustively analy retentiveness could cope with the thought of a different PM possibly giving different results!
Yes, really hoping that Watteam can get it done at that price.
Clearance on the Madone? Apparently you can attach the 4iiii PM pod to either crank arm. Must be enough clearance on the drive side.
Monkeyfudger, I've got a PowerTap and a Power2Max. They do give different results, but the difference is pretty consistent (about 10 watts lower on the PT, which you'd sort of expect given one is crank and the other hub.) I do occasionally tweak things to account for it though.
Also, seems a good time to say that my P2M battery flashed up "low" yesterday, reckon it's got at least 8-9000 miles in it over just less than a year. This will also include maybe 15-20 hours driving where due to the cars motion the PM will be switched on.
Oh and my above comment ref the faulty Vectors, turns out it was a dodgy Garmin head unit screwing up the calibration somehow hence the weirdness after the install, fine now with a different Garmin.
Was the Watteam the other self install one (from Israel I think?)?
Clearance on the Madone? Apparently you can attach the 4iiii PM pod to either crank arm. Must be enough clearance on the drive side.
It's the brake (being on the chain stays) that causes issues I believe. You'd imagine the DS would be fine though.
Was the Watteam the other self install one (from Israel I think?)?
The very same.
Interesting thought in the 4iiii review, that prices will continue to drop untill stages etc are doing both arms for the current price. Guess it makes sense as the unit cost must be small so as long as production can meet demand (guess that might be the stumbling block) then it makes little difference as you recoup the development costs over the same number of sales, just selling each person 2x as many (relatively cheap to make) black boxes.
Interesting to see what will happen to prices. I guess all the imminent budget PMs are going to worry the likes of Stages a lot more than SRM (if you're in the market for a budget PM then you're probably not going to be a lost sale to SRM!)
then it makes little difference as you recoup the development costs over the same number of sales, just selling each person 2x as many (relatively cheap to make) black boxes.
It is curious that single sided versions are being sold at roughly half the price of dual sided. Doesn't really make sense if most of the price is recouping R&D costs and manufacturing is cheap. Probably set to meet customer expectations. Who's going to buy a budget one if it's only say 80% the cost of the full price one.
Anyway, a good PM for $399 would be great. I'd likely have one on every bike at that price (well maybe not the pub bike!)
