The Trainerroad podcast backs up my personal experience- if you take care of cooling (mahoosive fans) and motivation (Zwift 😉 ) then there is no reason other than practice that your indoor and outdoor performances should differ.
batteries off Amazon will be fake surely? been another thread on it here
then there is no reason other than practice that your indoor and outdoor performances should differ.
This is a good article outlining some of the issues...
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.co.uk/2009/01/turbocharged-training.html
Discussed elsewhere on this forum but there is the obvious difference as to why they differ. Turbo is a steady effort, outdoor is highly variable effort. You can do things to approximate it on the turbo, get a controlled turbo, or do highly variable over/under sessions, but it's not the same. I'm down a fair few watts down on my turbo 20MP when riding outdoors. Doing a turbo test I can push an optimal gear, optimal cadence, steady effort, good position for pushing on the pedals and breathing. As soon as you add some variability, changes of gear, cadence, wind, rolling terrain, getting aero, the avg power drops. On the TT bike even more so as breathing and position for power are compromised for aero gains. I'm quite surprised when I hear of people who put out more power riding outdoors, seems odd to me, but then some people deal with the variability a lot better than others or maybe are more motivated.
batteries off Amazon will be fake surely? been another thread on it here
Mine came in proper panasonic packaging and had over 200 positive reviews. However in 6 months time when its time to change Ill let you know.
MrBlobby- I was more talking physiologically. 250w indoors or out on the same power meter should have the same cost to your body. Whether you can get two rides to match is a bit of a different point with the obvious challenges you mention.
Crosshair, it's not though. Maybe one for the next Sunday ride 🙂
I mean as a snapshot in time- not the average for the ride. The more variables you introduce, the less comparable the results yes- but that just means the outdoor number is likely to be the 'wrong' one- high or low.
TiRed for example, wants to get a number he can use for pacing- often on the same circuit, so tests outdoors where the variables, whilst huge, are nevertheless consistent.
For setting FTP based training zones manually, or automatically via Zwift workout sliders or Trainerroad however, the number required needs to be as noise free as possible.
We could go on and on in this section and try to dissect every little variable that could lead to a difference in test results, but ultimately I think it’s better to end this post simply: Because there are less variables to consider, assessing your FTP inside will provide more sound data, i.e. accurate assessment results, than what you’ll get outside. What’s more, because there are so many variables and differences to consider between the two approaches, you simply cannot compare your test data from an outdoor test to your test data from an indoor test, and vice versa.
http://blog.trainerroad.com/ftp-testing-outdoors-vs-indoors/
But the differences are not- with practice- physiological 😉
Interesting stuff - sounds like I need to start putting my back into the turbo 🙂 tbh I think the difference is too big to put down to differing efforts, motivation etc, although maybe another fan might be significant (I use one, not placed with particular care).
I did revolver the other night ont turbo and was pretty folded - no way on earth is there an untapped 15% hiding away in there.
I'm pretty similar I think. Just before my last surgery I did a two hour ride outside, with a normalised power about 5% higher than my indoor FTP. I was trying reasonably hard but was by no means completely spent when I finished. Of course NP doesn't perfectly do what it aims to, but I'm pretty sure that I could have done an outdoor test that day and smashed my indoor FTP.
I am a sweaty old sweater though, and think that I suffer in heat. I suspect that for me it's a combination of cooling and micro-rests that makes outdoors easier.
Whilst one does need to do some extra work outdoors (e.g with core muscles), I think that's not a massive amount on the road. I suspect that the level of trainedness is a factor in how much of a factor this is. I'm relatively untrained, so I suspect that the ability of my specific cycling (i.e leg) muscles to deliver work might be more of a limiter than my body's overall ability to mobilise energy. So using core muscles a bit doesn't cost me as much as I gain from better cooling and micro rests. I am obviously breathing hard, but my legs are definitely a limiting factor in an FTP test. Maybe someone like mrblobby is butting up against the limits of the total work rate that his system can deliver, so energy wasted keeping him upright and wiggling round pot holes is a more noticeable cost?
I have also heard speculation that the type / quality of trainer might slightly affect this too. A bit more inertia and 'road feel' might be a bit gentler on the legs and. I can't remember where I heard that though - might have been someone selling expensive trainers. 🙂
Gray, that last bit is mostly what I was going to say but isn't that relevant to the PM thread. Turbo properties are a big factor in how much power you can put out. It's a bit like riding on the flat vs riding a hill. The feel is different, the torque pattern around the pedal stoke is different so you work muscles and firing patterns differently. And one may be more optimal for you than the other in terms of making the most power.
cheap 105 stages on Evans
https://www.evanscycles.com/stages-shimano-105-5800-g2-ex-demo-ex-display-EV313798
Interesting aero stuff here Garmin have bought out alphamantis
https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2017/07/aerodynamics-alphamantis-acquired.html
Interesting stuff there dirtyrider, definitely one to watch.
New from 4iiii....
And the new Vector's look good with a price drop too. Don't have a problem with the pods myself but I know it puts many off.
I'm liking the Favero Assioma's personally. I think the P1s now look dead in the water. I also think £300 for single sided pedal option would be a milestone.
Possible stupid question alert - are 4iiii for road vs MTB different?
£300 for single sided pedal option would be a milestone.
You'd just have people complaining that they weren't 200 quid a pedal 🙂
Do 4iiii do mtb yet? Only seen them on road cranks.
You can get the 4iiii Precision on XT or XTR crank arms.
Sweamrs has a 4iiii on her 105 cranks for road and also on her XT mtb cranks. They look the same as far as I can tell. They are down the road from me in Cochrane (Canada) so both times I just took the crank in for them to install. I think they are pretty limited though on the mtb side for crank compatibility. (High end Shimano only).
Possible stupid question alert - are 4iiii for road vs MTB different?
yes
you cannot use a road non drive on a mtb crankset, hits the chain stay, i posted pics of a stages road on my mtb once, didn't clear the chainstay
More stages woes. Two Ultegra G2’s both warranty replacements. Massive over reading off zero offset on one and low offset on street other. Both resulting in power drops & wildly fluctuating readings either 30/40watts under or over.
Starting to think it could be a UK based use as one of them was absolutely no probs in the alps over summer, perfect calibration reading and great battery life come back to the uk and off we go again with same probs.
I thought hey had fixed it with G2s thinking rather have G1s with piss poor battery life than the problems I’ve had with power drop outs on G2s
And by contrast, I've just checked my powerpod against bike calculator for our winter loop on my fixed wheel. Powerpod says 222 watts, vs. 219 predicted. Pretty happy with that. As I've said before, on the fixed wheel and TT bike, the readings are reliable and reproducible.
Our club champs on Saturday produced a threshold FTP effort. Basically an hour in a breakaway of three. Powercal says 260 watts for an average heart rate of 170. IT Isa bit low at the extremes. But a rough average
Bit of a PSA....Watteam PowerBeat double sided power meter for less than £300.
http://www.clevertraining.co.uk/watteam-powerbeat-the-world-s-first-add-on-pro-level-powermeter
Use DCR10BTF for another 10% off. I think this is the old model.
You can have dual sided for £350 (inc cranks):
[url= https://shop.teamzwatt.com/ ]https://shop.teamzwatt.com/[/url]
I have a Zpider and would recommend it. Works great for me. No tricky installation, or silly pods get damaged (unlike the watteam ones above), and rechargeable. There are also very regular software updates / improvements (the downside of this is there is a small monthly maintenance fee for 24 months).
4iii on 105 for 315 quid at Ribble black friday deal.
£300 for single sided pedal option would be a milestone.
And has arrived. until midnight 4iiii 105 cranks at £285
Powertap P1 pedals seem to be £799 everywhere now, is that new? Personally I'd still wait for Vector 3 or get Favero pedals if I didn't already have bePROs.
Yes, they've had to lower their price to the Vector 3s. I was hoping for some Assioma's on offer today, but the only discount so far is a bundle with a Garmin 520 - which I don't need.
Just ordered powertap P1S on click and collect for £343 including my discount card.
Good/bad decision?
Good/bad decision?
Only time will tell 😉
PowerPod has some fans around here. It's on at PBK for 200 quid for the next hour [url= https://www.probikekit.co.uk/cycling-power-meters/powerpod-powermeter-v2/11514777.html ]here[/url].
.
PowerPod has some fans around here.
I'm not using mine - £100 to the first interested party, with cable & under bar go pro / Garmin mount. 😀
I’d be tempted by that Kryton, Bluetooth or ant+?
I'm pretty sure its the V1 which is ANT+ only...?
Bought in April.
300 quid for a 105 4iiii from ProBikeKit with SAVE20 code.
If you can be arsed with the fitting, then Watteam Powerbeat now £300 for dual sided:
http://www.clevertraining.co.uk/watteam-powerbeat-single-dual-2-pack-power-meter
Single sided version is £204.
Worth reading the review on DC Rainmaker if interested.
(Not sure, but might be able to get an extra discount on top of that with DCR VIP thingy.)
Be good to hear some real world feedback on those PowerBeat ones.
Anyone else having trouble with their PM’s in the cold weather? Had my PowerTap C1 on the turbo bike for a couple of years with no problems. Switched it to the training bike for this winter and have managed to kill it in a couple of months.
While that’s gone back to Paligap I swapped over some to some Vectors and they managed to chew through a pair of batteries in a couple of rides. Used the Vectors all last winter with no problems, hopefully just a duff batch of batteries. Am subjecting them to a lot more cold and wet this winter though that would have had me on the turbo last winter.
Quick straw poll. Who's riding their PM's outdoors through winter? So far this winter has killed a C1 spider and one of my Vector pods. So what's coping well and what isn't?
^^ to follow that up, I'd be quite tempted by the Assioma now, having all the electronics encased in a resin block. Easy rechargeable looks good too. I'm sure a lot of the issues I have is with internal condensation when bringing a cold bike indoors to change batteries.
Quick straw poll. Who's riding their PM's outdoors through winter? So far this winter has killed a C1 spider and one of my Vector pods. So what's coping well [b]and what isn't?[/b]
Stages 😀
Joking aside the replacement (third unit now) is confined to the turbo this winter, I can't be assed with all the battery and support hassles all over again.
Stages
😆
Mines on the XC bike and not been ridden in ages.
Yeah, seemed like a good idea to me too - we'll see (though I won't be riding outdoors much for a month or two, and I've a bit of a tendency to jump on the turbo if it's pissing down anyway)^ to follow that up, I'd be quite tempted by the Assioma now, having all the electronics encased in a resin block
Are you keeping the bike with the PM inside?
My theory (not scientific in anyway) based on having 3 stages pms. If they are kept inside they seem to run through battery much faster. I think this could be because my phone / other devices 'wake up' the pm for connection and therefore drain the battery quicker.
This could be complete bollox, but since my road bike is in the house now, as opposed to the shed it is getting through battery at a much faster rate that it had been
I get the opposite tbh, it's kept in a cold garage - single skin brick, vented but no insulation.
Once it's been outside it never gets the chance to dry out properly because of the damp environment. The batteries die very quickly and I get a lot of dodgy calibration readings until I can leave the bike by the radiator with the cap off and battery out for a day.
My bePROs haven't been outside in filthy weather much at all, though they don't show any signs of minding cold temperatures.
If I were buying again fresh now, then I'd be torn between Vector 3 (because they look so neat) and Assiomas.
I did briefly think that my bePROs were playing up the other day - they were showing pretty much 40:60 left-right balance, whereas I'm usually within a couple of percent of 50-50 unless going really gently. I'm pretty sure that it's because I have a hurty left hamstring though, and am subconsciously going easy on it.
my powertap is staying indoors for the winter.
Once it's been outside it never gets the chance to dry out properly because of the damp environment. The batteries die very quickly and I get a lot of dodgy calibration readings until I can leave the bike by the radiator with the cap off and battery out for a day.
That is my experience, certainly with the C1. Vectors are a bit better. I may put the P2M on the winter bike and see how that goes.
I ride my Stages indoors or outside regardless. Its a G2 which touch wood doesn't seem affected by crap weather/water (two winters riding) Battery life is much more reasonable than the G1's I had to return but nowhere near the quoted 200 hours.
I've got a Watteam on order and won't be wrapping that up indoors either.
Friend has a 4iiii that's fitted to his fat bike and he seems to use it all winter with limited issues despite them only being certified to 0C. This is in Calgary though where although it's often very cold it's dry so no damp issues to contend with.
I'd be torn between Vector 3 (because they look so neat) and Assiomas.
I had this exact thought before ordering mine. The Vector 3's look just like my old Look Keo carbon pedals but with the word Garmin printed on them. I have to admit that I think the extra was worth it for the looks on the bike, to me at least. Functionally though there's not a lot in it they all work nicely these days.
P2M used all last winter and this winter too (when I venture outside). Absolutely fine.
P2M does seem well regarded in that respect. It’s currently single ringed on the mothballed TT bike but might do some swapping around.
Played with my Vectors and it looks like the right pod is dead. Took the opportunity to order a Vector 2 upgrade kit to replace both pods and spindles, not too bad at 100 quid. I guess that’s one advantage of having the pods separate in the old Vectors.
C1 is with Paligap 🙁
At this rate i’m thinking it might be worth rebuilding my PowerTap hub!
I might have a PowerTap GS wheel going spare if interested (or anyone else). I've not used it much at all - should probably get rid of it. Currently on loan to a friend. I've been hanging onto it just in case I end up with a bike permanently fixed to the turbo. The reality is though, that if that happens then I'll probably get a direct drive one anyway.
My Powercal might be staying indoors, along with the ride! Smart trainer on order. Sprint training here I come.
Actually planning on the assiomas. Single sided and hoping they fix the Swift single sided issue
I thought I would share my experience with Favero BePro.
have been using them for 6 months or so, the pedal its self is very high quality so my view is that you are paying an incremental £275 for a power meter. Which makes it better value than a left only option, but I guess you have to like Look cleats in the first place.
They have worked faultlessly through winter so far, 12 hours a week of riding outside in the salt and then hosing down and there are no issues electronically or mechanically.
The ability to charge via mini usb is great
I had stages before and had loads of issues that this system overcomes
- Swapping between bikes was harder
- Water in battery
- Dropping signal whilst riding
- Buying spare batteries
- Under measuring
Actually planning on the assiomas. Single sided and hoping they fix the Swift single sided issue
Is that issue only with bluetooth connection? Is connecting via ANT+ a viable backup plan for you?
Regarding longevity, my power 2max has now done five very hard years where it's been ridden outside every winter through all weathers. This year I stuck it on my CX bike so it has been crashed, ridden through mud, rain, snow and ice, jumped and generally abused 4 nights a week.
Still opererates as new with just a new battery (1 min job) every 9 months or so.
Very impressive.
Well a thumbs up for the Vectors. A dead pedal pod after about 3 years of pretty heavy use. Figured I might as well just get the Vector 2 upgrade kit, ordered yesterday and arrived today, thanks Sigma Sport and DPD. 100 quid for two new pods with new cartridges, bushing, bearings and seals. Easy enough DIY job, done in about half an hour. All paired up and ready to go. No having to send it back to Garmin. There's certainly some merit in keeping the electronics in a separate package.
Oh extra plus, could unpair them and run them single sided for a couple of days until the kit arrived.
Looks like Santa has come early....
Great stuff. Let us know how the installation goes. What you sticking them to? Do you have anything to compare them to when you get them installed? Assume it comes with some sort of calibration kit?
Yes BT only, running Zwift on iOS app. I could go AMT with a laptop too. I just like the fact they are a mature technology now. Garmin 3s are such a big update, it's almost first gen. And we all know about Garmin first generation products. Public beta testing!
Still looking at my own app for derived power. What have you started!!!!
I have a Stages and a Pioneer single side already. So its going to be difficult to get a direct/exact comparison, but think I should be able to tell by heart rate on a steady tempo or sweet spot session if they're in the right ball park.
They're either going on a 105 chainset or Ultegra. I really want to put them on the TT or road race bike, but I think the dual sided data will be more useful on the turbo, initially at least.
They come with two stiff plastic bags which you fill with water and then calibrate at various points in the pedal stroke from what I've read.
They were £270, almost wish I'd bought two sets - would then have been less than £250 per set! If they're accurate and reliable then I think that's pretty bargainous! 🙂
You could probably get a pretty good comparison from the turbo. Pick a gear/cadence combinations speeds and see what power you need for that on one crankset, then swap for the others and compare data.
Garmin 3s are such a big update, it's almost first gen.
I wonder if much has actually changed other than the placing of electronics and pedal body? Must check out a review. I’d assume spindle, strain gaugues are all as they were (ah other than the port to connect to the pods!) Probably not a big s/w change either. My 1st gen Vectors have been fine for 3 years until a pod died last week, which was easy and fairly cheap to replace (considering I got a full service kit and two upgraded pods.)
Good idea Mr Blobby, I've got a pretty good idea on gear/cadence for a given power on the Stages, so will definitely tell if it's out by a lot.
Well, that was one scary experience!
I'm fine doing absolutely any bike maintenance myself but when it's "sh1t or bust" on the gluing the sensors, that was stressful!
First thought was it's hard to make sure the sensor is perfectly parallel to the crank arm, when they are covered by the larger "holding piece" for gluing. And is it perfectly aligned with my pencil marks???? Did I put enough glue on the sensors? Did I put too much??? Had the alcohol wipe evaporated completely? Oh and it's funny how 10minutes which is LOADS of time once you've mixed the glue, just disappears like the sanda of time before your eyes...
There is no going back.
24 hours of waiting now.....
Funnily enough that’s the installation experience I had in mind 🙂 I get a bit nervous even torquing up bolts around PM’s.
So, I'm done! Powerbeats fitted!
I gave the glue 48hours to cure whilst worrying whether i'd glued them straight enough or prepared the surface well enough.
Anyway, as soon as I removed the elastic bands the sensor holders fell away leaving the sensors securely fixed on the crank arms. All good!
This morning I went through the calibration process. Filled the water bags and used the app to calibrate with the pedals in the different positions. Took three attempts before it passed, the early attempts failed on the last reading but I think it was possibly because the water bags may have still been swaying slightly.
For some reason my Garmin wouldn't pair with them but I've had that problem with my Garmin before when I don't have the heart rate monitor on too.
Eventually I got it and did 20minutes easy pedalling in the easiest gear I had. It was interesting to get dual side/balance readings but I wasn't totally sure the power was comparable to my Stages. Maybe within 10percent based on cadence.
Thought I'd just check the weight of the "full" water bags....turns out I'd calibrated with the bags not totally full. You have to be careful that you hold the bag right at the bag neck.
So I'm going to recalibrate tonight.
Other thoughts are - the connectors to the pods are a very tight fit, which is good from a waterproofness perspective but then they're difficult to remove (say for charging) carefully without tugging the wire. I was a bit worried the pod might be a bit vulnerable if you're not careful when you clip in, but I guess if you clip in normally without stamping on the edge of the crank arm then it's a fairly unfounded thought.
I almost wish I'd bought a double pack and they would have been even cheaper, but it assumes this set proves reliable over the next few weeks and months.
Good stuff. The gluing does look a bit diy 😉 but then for the price you really can't complain. Be good to see if you can get some comparisons done.
Looking at the pod position, it's the same as the vectors, which mean they are under the pedal at the 3 o clock position, so generally out the way when you are clipping in. I've not heard of any problems with the vector pods in that regard so expect those will be ok too.
It does look a bit DIY in the photo, but unless you crouch down and look at it closely, then it doesn't detract that much.... definitely won't see it when you're pedalling anyway! 8)
Good point about the pods being shielded as you clip in!
Just recalibrated, took about 5minutes and worked first time. 5minutes spin on the turbo and getting the water bags filled correctly has dropped the watts a small amount (just a few percent perhaps) and it seems more comparable to what I would expect on my stages.
Got some fairly long sweet spot sessions this week so that will be a fairly good indicator as to where they're at.
Has anyone tried a Stages Dash Head Unit yet? I'm interested to know if it resolves any of the known issues with the Stages PMs.
My Stages keeps having the same old issues which I've learnt to cope with but more recently, it's started dropping out and/or spiking on my Garmin 520. It won't hold a connection at all to my Garmin Fenix 5 watch. Despite this, it connects perfectly to the Stages app on my phone which hints towards this particular issue being with Garmin rather than Stages.
And yes, all firmware updates are the most recent versions etc
Sounds more like an ANT+ issue with the Stages.
Now that crossed my mind... But I cant figure out how to connect to my Garmin 520 via Bluetooth rather than ANT+
You can't do it. I think the 1030 is the first Garmin to support BLE connectivity for sensors.
If Kryton57 reads this I might be interested in the powerpod from the previous page if it’s still for sale. He has no contact details on his profile. Mine is in my profile.
So...new battery installed...followed the instructions for pairing with a 520 on the Stages Support page to the letter including changing the reading time settings from 'smart' to '1 sec'.
Tested with an hour on the rollers and everything worked perfectly
Vector 2 for £644 over at Winstanley's...
https://www.winstanleysbikes.co.uk/product/79702/Garmin_Vector_2_DualPedal_Power_Meter
teamslug - Member
If Kryton57 reads this I might be interested in the powerpod from the previous page if it’s still for sale. He has no contact details on his profile. Mine is in my profile.
Sorry teamslug but it sold to the first buyer. Thanks for the heads up on the contact details, I'll go an fix that.
Changed the battery in my 4iiii last weekend. According to my riding logs I had 162hrs out of it.