I've always done it through force of habit, not knowing if it was really necessary. Maybe more so in winter when you're on the turbo inside one day, and out in the cold the next.
bob_summers - Member
Anyone using Stages with a Garmin 520?
My 500 used to offer to calibrate the Stages when it detected it before each ride. The 520 doesn't and I have to delve into the menus (which I ultimately don't). Does calibration even matter that much?
Got the same set up as yourself and somewhere in the settings (don't have access to the Garmin because I'm at work atm, so don't know where it is exactly) there is a feature that allows you to re-calibrate the stages straight after the start up.
there is a feature that allows you to re-calibrate the stages straight after the start up.
Ta for that Andy, didn't know. As above, maybe not strictly necessary especially this time of year when temps are similar from one day to the next, but I'd rather it ask me anyway.
Hmm, I'm currently torn between P1 and Vector.
Not too worried about installation - don't expect to swap them about much, and can just use a torque wrench to do it properly. I'd rather have proper Keo compatibility - have Keos on the other bike, and the Vectors are slightly cheaper, slightly lighter and have slightly better cornering clearance.
However some people do seem to have reliability issues with Vectors, and occasionally you hear of pods being damaged.
Anyone think of any other major factors...? Otherwise I'm inclined to just go for the Vectors.
Ta,
Gray
Hmm, I'm currently torn between P1 and Vector.
I'm selling my P1's if you're after a set 😀
Might be! Why are you selling, and for how much please? I'm Graham dotty Searle on Gmail if you'd rather email. Cheers.
Realistically it's probably unlikely actually, thinking about it. With the current 17% discount on Wiggle you'd have to be letting them go pretty cheaply for me to prefer secondhand.
17% ends 3pm tomorrow. Buy buy buy!
I resisted the urge to say something along those lines! I see as of Tuesday they have 50 units ready to ship, although they're now doing some testing on them
The weekly Limits update on their facebook page is one of the most addictive soap operas out there 😀
I see as of Tuesday they have 50 units ready to ship, although they're now doing some testing on them
All I'll say, it when I saw that news I made sure I went to church at the weekend
So Limits have bought 50 pairs of someone else's meter pedals and gutted them then? 😀
I'm just wondering whether the magnet stuck to my chainstays for the Pioneer would affect the Stages should I refit it. Would the magnet affect any of the Stages internals to give spurious readings. Since the magnet is stuck on, I wouldn't want to have to remove it if I swapped betweent the Pioneer and the Stages.
Just to add my experiences with the Stages to this. I've got an Ultegra version on the road bike, and XT M785 on the MTB.
The Ultegra was a Gen1 which worked really well, until it started eating batteries: warranty with a Gen2 which has been fine so far.
The XT has been replaced 3 times now, the last one it just died. A new battery didn't do anything, no signal at all. This is now been returned.
I'm not sure it is really worth all this crap.
Battery died suddenly on my P1s the other day (was Zwifting, so I noticed immediately), no warnings, Garmin still reported "new", and it appeared to be both pedals, which was odd. Fitted new ones and they were perfect again, but still not entirely sure it was the behaviour I expected.
Just a word of warning for anybody considering a purchase from P2M. My Rotor 3D+ based powermeter had a problem after less than 1 year of use (the spider came loose from the crank arm). P2M immediately decided, without any investigation, or examination of the item, that it must have been my fault, therefore they would not fix it under warranty. I will be sticking to brands I trust in future, and have just bough a Quarq Elsa, because SRAM understand Customer Service.
Joined the forum for a bit of venting?
Surprised to hear that though, P2M I think have a pretty good reputation for customer service.
the spider came loose from the crank arm
Is it not just attached via the spline and locknut?
They also don't really have a choice, burden is on them to prove it was your fault. Not the other way around. Welcome.
Got a 4iiii Precision 2.0 a couple of weeks ago. All good so far however have only used it for 4 or 5 rides.
This looks interesting...
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/product-news/zwatt-power-meter-267898
Another kickstarter effort. Bit of a different model with the 2 year monthly fee and "dada upload".
2 months since the last mention of Limits power meters and from looking at their FB page it would appear that they still haven't managed to ship any units yet having found an 'accuracy issue' with them.
I wonder if they'll even manage to ship any before the end of the year?
Bought a second Power Pod. I've found them to be rather sensitive to the speed sensor (needs one to know speed for the calculation), but now on the TT bike all looks good with pretty believable power numbers. I suspect the baseline may be not perfect as it needs a CdA from my TT position, but relative effort is spot on. Will calibrate it against a Powertap soon disk wheel, then my Stages.
First one is going back for a repair because the USB port has failed.
Support from teh company is outstanding.
suspect the baseline may be not perfect as it needs a CdA from my TT position
Really is a shame it doesn't have a function to work with a PM and wheel speed to calculate CdA. Must be possible. I wonder if you could use the data it generates alongside a direct force PM to do this? Suspect the data isn't raw enough for this.
It does exactly that. The Powerpod will take a direct force measurement of power then using your speed, wind, incline and acceleration, calculate real-time CdA. It records all data internally for download at the end of a ride.
It will also transmit this value over the open ANT+ protocol. Garmin does not yet read this, so you can't see it until you load the ride into their Isaac software (which is very impressive).
Cool, eh? That's my next step 8)
Without the DFPM, it needs to know the CdA, and that is generic - so road hoods, road drops, TT. It can estimate it from a calibration ride too using a rather neat algorithm.
Hmm interesting. So you can pair the PowerPod and a DFPM to the Garmin at the same time?
I wonder if you could write an app for the Garmin that'd display it in real time? Also wonder how sensitive it is? (I seem to remember something about it only displaying to a couple of decimal places which wasn't much use.)
Also, does it do BLE or just ANT+?
Yes you can pair the DFPM to the Garmin and the powerpod simultaneously. One could then pair the PP with an app if written. BLE is coming but it is ANT+ at the moment. I expect they are working on an app too as I type.
Will keep you posted.
This seems like a pretty good idea...
http://www.bikerumor.com/2016/08/18/quarq-prime-bringing-dzero-power-metering-stock-bikes-2017/
Buy a bike then just swap out the spider if you want a PM.
Can anyone help me out with some questions about my new PowerPod? I’m now waiting for a speed and cadence sensor so I can start using it but in the meantime I have a couple of questions:
1 – I like to log all of my miles on Strava. If I start my Garmin recording at the beginning of a ride while the PP is calibrating (i.e. going from 0W – 100W) will this throw out my average power reading?
2 – I’d like to use it for my commute. I do this on a bike with a pannier, which will obviously be very unaero. Can the PP be set up accurately account for this? And as my commute is under 40 minutes, if I have to re-calibrate for the ride is the power data going to be meaningful if the first 7 minutes are the unit calibrating.
Thanks in advance
Sounds like a questio for TiRed!
Interestingly on question of measuring CdA, see this coming from Argon 18 at Eurobike...
Real time CdA using a box of electronics and a pitot tube. If it's sensitive enough to measure minor positional changes and works well, I'd be tempted. Given that a basic wind tunnel or velodrome session can be close to a grand (and much more depending on who and how long) it'll be interesting to see how they price this.
bitasuite - the powerpod only needs to calibrate if you've disconnected it from the mount and not put it back in the same position. If you're not uploading the data to Isaac and are just overlaying power onto strava then you don't need to remove it other than to recharge it every 20hrs or so. Your best bet though is to simply never remove it, I just bought a 3m long usb lead and charged it and downloaded from it whilst it was in situ.
It can be set up to recognise 2 bikes but the change between them will need the recalibration process to take place so the Monday morning ride will be a bit off as would the Saturday ride on your other bike.
You could (probably) set the aero penalty of the panniers on the commuter by analysing back to back none pedalling runs over the same terrain with the difference in estimated cda being as a result of the panniers. You'd obviously need to add the weight of the pannier to the weight of the bike for the none panniered run though or else the weight difference will introduce another variable. There's probably an easier way of doing it though so I'd ask John Hamman on the Powerpod forum.
http://ibikeforum.com/viewforum.php?f=93&sid=65a3d28db476527c609049be127693c0
As above really. No need to recalibrate every ride but swapping between bikes does need calibration. Panniers won't make a huge difference to your cda or weight to be honest.
Mine seems more reliable with the old dual magnet sensors, but the speed only hub sensor does work too. It doesn't recognise my Giant integrated speed cadence sensor.
I haven't paired with a direct force power meter yet. When I do, i'll take it on some closed circuit loops at hillingdon and compare with aerolab cda via cheung on Golden Cheetah.
I now view it as fit and forget, it gives reasonable numbers with the right distribution.
But I find swapping to be a bit of a pain. The recalibration after every ride is when it runs a self test for orientation, tilting the unit will give nonsense or superman power, depending on one's perspective.
quite a few Limits on eBay - whats the deal with them now
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Power-Meters/177842/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=limits+power+meter
They don't really work to any useable degree, there's questions about their physical reliability and the vast majority of backers haven't even received them yet so seeing them on eBay isn't a great sign.
The DC Rainmaker blogs relating to them are a bit of an eye opener.
After months of faultless use of my Ultegra G2 stages suddenly getting power drops every 2-5 mins where it just zero's out then spikes back up. Battery fine calibration fine firmware fine, thinking it could just be a battery door connection issue so got a new one on its way before the hassle of warranty. XTR G2 still working a treat FWIW.
Hope no one was waiting for a Brim PM...
http://www.bikerumor.com/2016/10/25/bad-news-brim-brothers-shoe-based-power-meter-dead/
Some cheap stages in the Evans ex demo section - XTR being the cheapest at 279
Tempting for the price though would definitely check out the warranty situation!
warranty is 6mths limited - would an XTR arm fit on an XT spindle?!
Is there a link? I cant find them!
my stage meter has been great for multi pal times a week for over a year now.
Well it won't be [url= http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/brim-brothers-zone-dpmx-shoe-power-meter-46366/ ]Brim Brothers wearable[/url], that's for certain.
https://www.evanscycles.com/components/ex-display-gearing-and-drivetrain-parts_c?sort=-price_inc_vat
Vectors for mtb coming soon
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http://i829.photobucket.com/albums/zz211/dansipods/A5BF0004-BC27-45D6-864F-E882EBC359B1_zps6rqao4df.pn g"/> [/IMG][/URL]
I can see that pod getting knocked off on the 1st ride..
Oooh, vector for spd is attractive. I'd be willing to use XC shoes on road bikes in exchange for a meter i can use on all my bikes.
Stages 105 for 299 at Sigma Sport in their early Black Friday section.
I can see why Garmin say the SPD vector is for commuting and not mtb! Pods are pretty robust but I'd be surprised if they lasted long on an mtb.
XT gen 2 for 250 quid, [s]tempted[/s] purchased!
My Gen 1 XTR stages about to go back to Saddleback. Repeated drop out on last ride.
After everything I've read I'd never get a Stages... but then I did 🙂 For 250 quid, it won't be on a bike I rely on, and hoping the gen 2 is a bit more sorted than the gen 1, so worth a punt. At least their customer care sounds very good!
my stage has been brilliant in over 12 months - on the 3rd battery.
no jet washing or riding in heavy rain though
I'ts been pretty good up till now. I have a sneaking suspicion that Duracell batteries are slightly smaller. It's not a battery drain issue it just drops out and the only way to get it back is to take the battery out and reseat. Not something you want to do when the arm is covered in crap.
I don't jet wash but if I can't use an XTR crank arm in wet mud it's useless to me.
Do Stages recommend any particular brand of battery? May make a note of what it comes supplied with.
Mine came with Panasonic but every time I went to the shop and they wanted me to try a firmware update and a new battery, they'd give me Duracell.
I wonder if the quality on C2032 batteries is variable in general. I've used Maxell, Panasonic, Duracell, Energizer, cheapos from the pound shop....and whilst some are better than others it doesn't seem that one particular brand is better. I've had Duracell ones last just a day and cheapos last a few months. But then the opposite, just when I thought I'd find a reliable brand.
Seems the battery, touch wood, doesn't drain on my G2 like the G1 did but I wouldn't say I'm getting anywhere near the ~200 hours that Stages quote.
My 2nd gen needs a battery swap every ride...interestingly it won't accept the same battery reseated, I have to use a different one to wake it up. But can re-use at a later date.
Similar pattern for the last few weeks since using the winter bike, doesn't matter if it's been outdoors or just on the turbo.
Guess it works but it's a bit a PITA when I'm rushing out to meet folk.
Does sound a right PITA. My 2nd gen XT arrived today. At least it only cost me 260 quid 😕
On the flip side I had a mk1 x9 that had no issues for almost 2 years, only removed as I switched to XTR cranks
7900 dura ace stages on the road bike too, no issues in 18 months
Interesting to read that other people are getting problems now.
Both me and one of my sons have been experiencing problems the last couple of weeks, apparent flat batteries and dropouts. Both G2 105 cranks.
I always buy batteries from supermarkets or well know shops, there are lots of fakes around. I changed both of our batteries recently and they both went flat within a week, repeated this and the same happened again. I thought it might be a battery batch so have changed brands. We went out on Sunday and my son's would not pair, so I put in one of the new batteries and but during the ride he was getting long dropouts.
I did a bit of reading up and one thing it might be is the delicate battery tangs flattening over time (allowing the battery to move and lose contact). I very carefully pulled the tangs out slightly.
The other thing I did was to 'unpair' the power meter and then manually add the ANT+ ID instead of searching for it. Apparently, if you do this and it drops out it tries to connect back to the same ANT+ device, if you have searched for it when setting up it then searches for devices again (giving a much longer dropout in comms).
He used it last night and he said it was fine, we are out for a couple of hours tonight so I can see how they both perform.
Quarq seem to be doing a trade-in offer:
http://www.cyclepowermeters.com/quarq-trade-in-222-c.asp
E.g. the new DFour Shimano 4-bolt pattern carbon crank for £726 (instead of £968). They'll accept more or less any direct force power meter (doesn't have to work) for the trade-in. Almost worth hunting down something old / cheap / broken on eBay...
What the....?
http://road.cc/content/tech-news/213543-introducing-arofly-“-worlds-smallest-power-meter”-video
Funny that the "so how does it work" bit doesn't actually tell you how it's working!
aye, just seen that ^^
Think ill wait until they have tested one...
Made a bit of an impulse buy yesterday with Canyons sale on theVector 2. Do you still need a torque wrench to install?
Have resisted them for so long as i didnt want to move from SPD-SL, but its the cheapest way to get power on my track bike so i'll learn to live with the Keo cleats!
I didn't use one for mine
Oh and you can use spd-sl
Well done on getting the Canyon bargain - all gone by the time I looked!
Good & bad G1 Ultegra gave up after a long fight inc removing battery after ride & replacing it but got it upgraded to a G2, the G2 XTR after no probs ridden & raced over 8 moths in all conditions has also started to play up 🙁 Gotta add though the after sales from SB & Stages is beyond excellent.
SB?
Saddleback; Stages distributor.
That Arofly thing looks mental. Not in a good way. The next "Limits"?!
Ah, OK.
Yes, I have doubts about that AroFly thing...
An update from me.
One of my Stages power drain issues was sorted by (very) delicately pulling out the battery prongs (I think it was actually lack of contact rather than flat batteries). I tried the same on the second one but it did not cure it. I thought it may be a battery batch issue so bought some more (reputable shop) but it was still draining batteries within a couple of days.
Saddleback replaced the unit very quickly. It was interesting to see that this replacement was a refurb unit. Last time it was for a new retail arm. I don't have a problem with that, but it was an interesting observation, they must have had so many returns that they are now refurbishing them.
The third Stages in our household drained one battery very quickly but appeared to be OK tonight (one week on). I will keep an eye on it.
All cranks are G2.
It would be interesting to see what the return rates are on Stages power meters, it must cost them a fortune. Hopefully they will resolve the issues at some point. It is like the electronics stop going into a power saving sleep mode. They still seem to work fine when you put a new battery in.
Oh and you can use spd-sl
Good option to have, will give the Keo a go first and if i dont get on with them will try that.
Gone through a dozen batteries in my 2nd gen, after yesterday's ride I took the battery out as soon as I got home. Hoping that this will rule in or out any sleep issues.
If it doesn't work I'll open a ticket with support, it's really starting to grate having to spend time faffing around with batteries before every ride.
They were excellent in replacing my 1st gen, must be costing them a fortune...
Limits made some engineering sense even if the company didn't. That Arofly thing looks the snakiest of snake oilsThat Arofly thing looks mental. Not in a good way. The next "Limits"?!
Went to use my warranty replacement today for the second time and guess what, the battery was flat!! Stuck a new one in and it was constantly dropping out during the ride. I have just removed the battery and the contacts look flat so I have levered them up again. I am hoping that it was a false flat battery and that the dropouts were due to the poor contact.
Limits made some engineering sense even if the company didn't. That Arofly thing looks the snakiest of snake oils
I've got a Powerpod which seems to work great and DCR, who knows a fair bit about powermeters, agrees despite loads of random people on the internet who can't get their heads around none direct force power meters saying it can't possibly work.
There are a lot of people trying to sidestep the dfpm issues entirely and this is shaping up to be another possible option. People need to get over the idea that strain gauges are the only way of working out power.
I'd bet good money that this time next year that Arofly thing or whatever it's called is a better option than Limits.
There are a lot of people trying to sidestep the dfpm issues entirely and this is shaping up to be another possible option. People need to get over the idea that strain gauges are the only way of working out power.
The derived force only seem to have one advantage, price. And with direct force getting cheaper year on year (you can get a Stages for less than a powerpod) I don't see much future for them unless they offer some additional advantages (e.g. portability) or features (e.g. CdA estimations.)
Well, compared to stages some of them seem to be as lot more reliable for a start.
This has probably been asked already, but 1100 posts is a lot to wade through 🙂
What are the most cost effective options for using power on more than one bike? If they were both road bikes, I guess Vectors would be worth a look, but what about an mtb & a 'cross bike?
Little update on my Stages...I whipped the battery out immediately after my last ride to see if would wake up first time with the same battery.
It worked, whereas previously it would have needed a replacement.
Could this be anything to do with the temperature of the batteries (I kept it in the house) or are the PM's just not sleeping properly?
Anyway, one other thing maybe/maybe not related...it needed calibrating mid-ride, first time ever it's done that.
This seems as good a place to ask instead of starting a new thread - the ride is logged in TrainingPeaks and I now have a few new best peaks that aren't exactly accurate. I can manually adjust the TSS down to something about right, but is there any way I can tell TP to ignore the peaks?
Guess I could delete the whole ride and add back in manually, but would like to keep it if possible.
Useful link, thanks!
2. Do you still need a torque wrench to install?
Yes you do. Needs a huge 40nm and if not torqued correctly can get large variations in readings.
One of the mag's has done a decent long term test of several netres that they've made a lengthy video of on YouTube. After watching it I deleted the Vectors from my Canyon basket.
Edit:
[Video]
Probably posted before, but we are over 1100 posts in now!