Sure I read somewhere they were Wellgo cleats. Have a read back through this thread, I think njee has a set of P1's and done some experimentation with cleats. I think the summary was that the cleats work ok in keo pedals, and that keo cleats work ok in P1, but not quite as perfectly as a proper match.
The P1 cleats work fine with Keo pedals and Keo cleats seem to work perfectly with P1's from my experience.
Sorry me again.
What are people using to connect to an (newer) iPad.
Apple Lightning Adaptor
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Wahoo ANT+ Key
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The P1 cleats work fine with Keo pedals and Keo cleats seem to work perfectly with P1's from my experience
I agree, I put the 'Powertap' cleats on my winter shoes, and have normal Look ones on my normal shoes, not noticed any difference. I know DCR said worn Look cleats posed a potential problem. Mine aren't too bad so far. I can't see me using Keos other than very occasionally now, so I'll likely just buy the Wellgo ones when mine wear out.
What are people using to connect to an (newer) iPad.
I think the Wahoo key is the only one supported by TR.
I just replaced by PM and HR monitor with ones that supported BLE.
Vectors for Shimano pedals...
Interesting stuff. Wonder if they'll end up with a basic pedal-less kit and you then just add the cartridge kit for your pedals. Would be nice.
[b]ackie - Member[/b]
Hi all. Sorry to butt in.
I've been after a power meter for a while but funds have prevented me from taking the plunge.I have recently been offered a Powertap G3 wheel set (H+ Archetypes and a DT Swiss 240 front hub) for £350 in Good condition.
It's from a guy in my club so I know they have been looked after.The Powertap Hubs have always appealed to me as they seem easy to use and reliable.
[i]
Is there any reason not to go for it?[/i]
My G3 is one year old and currently about to be put in a box and sent back for the 3rd time in that period of ownership as it has gone out of range again.
If it was 2nd hand I would be paying for the work
My Stages on the MTB has been replaced twice, now on a G2 unit and it seems to be working ok after a few rides out, time will tell as the other units worked fine for the first few months too before problems started.
In short. I personally wouldn't buy a powermeter that didn't have warranty with it.
Vectors for Shimano pedals...Interesting stuff. Wonder if they'll end up with a basic pedal-less kit and you then just add the cartridge kit for your pedals. Would be nice.
That's a hell of an expensive wok around to get Shimano cleats to work on your Vectors. Surely you'd be far off just buying a set of Keo cleats and using them or are Shimano SPD-SL's really that good?
hell of an expensive wok around
Probably about 160 quid for pedals and kit. Not too bad I thought if you like your Shimano pedals.
Probably about 160 quid for pedals and kit. Not too bad I thought if you like your Shimano pedals.
But compared to a set of cleats for £12 or so it seems expensive. Even if you need a couple of sets of cleats for a couple of pairs of shoes.
I'm just genuinely curious as to why you'd go to the extra expense.
I wouldn't consider changing cleats, so if I wasn't on Keo's already then the Vector would be off my list. If I was a Shimano pedal man then the Vectors would be on my radar. Pushes the price up a bit but at least they'd now be a consideration.
Would be nice though if it was a move to a more generic product that supported lots of pedals.
Why not just change cleats though? Is there that much difference between the Keo and Shimano ones?
Pedals can be quite personal. Shimano feel quite different to Look IMO.
That's what I was wondering. I've never quite understood why people were so hung up on particular pedals but then again I've only ever tried Look.
They all feel different. Ease of entry/exit, float, stack height etc. Not to mention weight, bearing and cleat life and so on. If you're buying a set of Vector 2s it's hardly a stretch to buy the adapter set for SPD-SLs. Clever move I say.
Vector price drop now. At least in the US. Merlin doing Vector 2 for £1000. Might be tempted to get some in the US in a couple of months - $1000 there now.
Just ordered a rotor Rex 1.1 in power for the mountain bike.
UK RRP for Vector 2 now £899:
$900 from Clever Training with the DCR discount, I'd be more tempted to do that and suck up fees!
Yeah, Wiggle with platinum discount is now £792. German shops might be cheaper soon, might not. I'm going to the US in a few months, so Clever Training might well be the best option (around £640 plus taxes where applicable). Still slightly tempted by P1s, but they're $200 more now.
Just ordered a rotor Rex 1.1 in power for the mountain bike.
Out of interest, how are you getting on with the INPower software?
I'm finding that it's really unreliable and difficult to get the unit to connect and I was wondering if it was just me.
Just taken delivery of a red powerpod 8) (had to be red). I'm in the US for a couple of days and couldn't resist. Not only that, but the price comes under the customs allowance to bring it home. SO £200 for a force estimating power meter. Being a paid-up member of the geeky Physics squad, I rather like the underlying science behind this meter. And their obvious homage to Newton's second law.
Racing Wednesday evening, but sadly, the only bracket that will fit my Giant aero handlebar profile on the Propel with a Go Pro mount is one made my Giant, and that is on my other bike 120 miles from home 🙁 . I've ordered a K-Edge combo too. I will be running it on our fastest TT rider's bike to compare with his SRM because he's a little skeptical of the CdA estimate it provides.
So back to PowerCal I guess for now.
For those that might be interested, I have used the PowerCal to perform Cheung Aerolab analysis on Golden Cheetah to estimate CdA on a closed loop circuit with multiple reps. Haterz gonna hate but you may be surprised to know that the results are not as bad as you might have expected. My CdA (0.29) is probably rubbish based on 2 hours on the TT bike yesterday wearing winter kit and a gilet, but I'll see what it says when I switched to a skinsuit and pointy hat.
Interesting stuff TiRed. Let us know how you get on. PowerPod gets talked about on time trialling forums fairly regularly but the feedback isn't usually that good.
Notice the proper full blown Newton does support pairing up with a direct force PM for real time CdA estimation, which sounds pretty interesting, and what would tempt me into buying one.
The pairing is done via the software for calibration. Then you can have more confidence in CdA. Real-time CdA - what's not to like to keep that position on the TT bars?
Your fairly local, once I have it running, you are welcome to try it on that budget TT bike you've just built 😉 . I'm going to pair it with my Garmin speed only sensor that mounts to the hub as a fast swap between bikes. I'm back in a month too so might get a cheaper black one as well if it performs as I hope.
A bit OT but others have done similar things.... does anyone have a BB30, 170mm crank compatible road PM going spare that they want to sell? Not in to pedal based systems but Stages (I currently have a Shimano crank and adapter to BB30), Rotor or P2M would go down nicely, thank you 🙂
Not really what you're asking for, but I have a Powertap GS built into a Pacenti SL23 rim if that's of interest?
I am open to newer Powertaps which are hopefully less explodey than the older ones if the price stacks up with what is on offer vs new other style PM's. Can you drop me an email to watlingdaniel [at] gmail [dot] com with condition/ use/ price/ freehub type please?
Open to other suggestions too 🙂
A few months in with the PowerTap C1 now and thought I'd do a quick update. Picked it up to replace my old PowerTap as I was changing turbo to a direct drive one. It's seen a lot of turbo work in that time and I'm now mostly using it over BLE to Trainer Road on my iPhone.
Easy enough to install. I just picked up a cheap Tiagra 5 arm chainset and bolted it on and torqued it up. Then installed the chainset as usual.
After the first dodgy unit (low reading) the replacement seems consistent in power measurement compared to my other PMs. I did have a problem with some erratic cadence reporting which would cause big fluctuations in the power measurement. Bizarrely this seems to have been cured by adjusting the feet on my turbo to eliminate a bit of a backwards and forwards rock. This slight rocking must have somehow been messing with whatever accelerometers it uses to measure cadence.
Battery life is ok. Just put my second battery in since early Jan. Nowhere near as good as my old PowerTap which would last for months. I suspect BLE is a lot thirstier than ANT+.
The PowerTap app works ok. Though I really just use it for zero'ing and updating the firmware.
Overal happy with my purchase. Does the job. Was a very good price for a PM that measures total power (around 400 quid with some xmas discount.) And hasn't caused me any problems (well since having the first one replaced!) It could look a bit prettier but it's on the turbo mule so don't really care about that.
not really what you're asking for, but I have a Powertap GS built into a Pacenti SL23 rim if that's of interest
Also interested - email in profile
I was just thinking about powermeters last night after a training ride.
Does the positioning of the PM affect the reading that the PM gives?
For example, would I be correct in thinking that you would get a higher reading on the same ride from a pedal based system like the Vectors than you would from a hub based set-up like a Powertap hub?
If so, how much difference would you expect between the two?
Similarly, would you expect a higher reading from single sided system like Stages than you'd get from a proper dual-sided system like the Vectors?
If so, how much difference would you expect between the two?
It'll be a few watts, single digits, due to drivetrain losses. Within the % accuracy of a PM so you might not see any difference. Compared Vectors with a PowerTap a few months back and there was about 3W difference in favour of the PowerTap.
Similarly, would you expect a higher reading from single sided system like Stages than you'd get from a proper dual-sided system like the Vectors?
Depends on your L/R balance. If your left leg is putting out more power than the right then it'll be higher, if right leg is putting out more than the left then it'll be lower. Unlikely it'll be exactly the same.
Edit... FWIW, my balance varies with effort and fatigue, so a single sided would be a bit rubbish as different levels of effort and fatigue would skew the power numbers.
Depends on your L/R balance. If your left leg is putting out more power than the right then it'll be higher, if right leg is putting out more than the left then it'll be lo
Good point. I never thought of it that way.
Stages vs Powertap differences
Lactate threshold - 55W or 32%
FTP - 38W or 13%
Both are significant enough to render any comparison to Friel's table utterly useless. I suspect it'd down to left leg dominance which is interesting as 2 years ago the musculature of my right leg was visibly more than my left. 2 years of riding to power numbers has (I surmise) trained my left leg to overtake my right - it looks the same now.
Stages is still right for me - I no longer care about comparisons (they don't win anything) and it is excellent for training and pacing and carries no weight penalty. I have one on my riding bike which can swap between triple, 1x and single speed with ease and one on my turbo.
Doesn't really seem worthy of a new thread when the relevant audience are likely all on this thread... [url= http://www.bikerumor.com/2016/04/13/shoot-better-performance-red-green-baron-xert-apps-garmin/#more-126784 ]First Connect IQ app that could actually be interesting[/url], prob gonna give it a go tomorrow - I'm intrigued by what it's offering. I like the idea of medals whilst I ride!
Out of interest, how are you getting on with the INPower software?
I will tell you tomorrow when I get my ant+ receiver.
First two rides with the Powerpod. First was a Cat 3 road race yesterday, and this morning was a 75 km time trial training ride.
Negatives : does not pair with integrated Giant Ride Sense speed and cadence sensor. Need the special Garmin GoPro mount for my Giant aero handlebars. You must have a cadence sensor to get sensible numbers.
Positives : does pair with non magnet Garmin sensors now on the race bike and also paired with a magnet Garmin sensor on the TT bike. Swapping bikes is the same as swapping a GoPro. Calibration is fun to watch and takes less than five minutes. Device detects which sensors are on each of four bikes and switches automatically when paired.
It works. Power in yesterday's race compared very well with a rider I follow in the club who has a near identical power profile. Power on the TT bike looked completely reasonable on this morning's loop (four laps of Drift Road near Maidenhead if you know it). Power goes up when you climb, and down when descending, reacts very fast to changes in effort and position. You'll soon start to believe the numbers
Can supply the files if anyone is interested in my weak performances! Very pleased. And if you are a serious TT geek, then you will want to couple this to your SRM and record real time CdA for analysis. The device can pair heart rate and a power meter and record direct force power to do the sums for you.
The Isaac software is old-school but powerful too.
May buy another when I go back to the US next month.
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Has the Brim Brothers speedplay power meter been covered in this chat? V tempted by it as my stages has been playing up recently.
Is it actually out yet?
999
1000!
As you were.
No, July is the ETA. Just wondered if it had been discussed. It looks pretty good, no faff between bikes albeit I'd need to change to speedplay pedals too, but my 2 concerns are around any teething issues once released (guess these will be fixable but with my power meter playing up im wanting one that just works!)...and what would happen if I happened to land on that part of my shoe in a crash.
Has the Brim Brothers speedplay power meter been covered in this chat? V tempted by it as my stages has been playing up recently.
Don't think so, but I'm not a fan of the messy look, the pretty poor looking data DC Rainmaker experienced or need to recharge once a week/ fortnight depending on mileage (they quote the high processing power required by the device as the reason). I can't find any info on the sensor type besides "not strain gauges" but it appears to some kind of pressure film rather than a *proper* force sensor, a bit like the insoles mentioned here before, which would explain the poor data quality. Basically it is too new, too expensive and the data doesn't look anywhere near good enough for me to consider personally.
Without trawling through every post here, has anybody mentioned these yet"
http://4iiii.com/product/precision/
Yeah we did 4iii, several times, as their release plan changed! They look good, they were a fantastic prospect when they were self install, IMO they're less appealing when it's left only (albeit right following now) and you have to send your cranks to the US for installation.
They got some weird electronics firm as UK distributor (nothing to do with cycling), which seemed like madness.
Still looks a good option though - DCR seems impressed.
My 4th XT Stages crank, 3rd warranty replacement, is again eating batteries. Only had it back since february. Fabulous. Gen2 improvements? The old ones lasted longer.
My 4th XT Stages crank, 3rd warranty replacement, is again eating batteries. Only had it back since february
Just as a matter of interest, is there a time limit on Stages being warrantied? I've had mine two years and had a cover kit sent to me after 11 months because it was eating batteries... firmware upgraded etc. and still does it, esp if I leave batteries in whilst in the garage... I now take the battery out after each use
They have a one year warranty, but it would be brand suicide if they stopped supporting customers after a year!
EU entitles you to a bit more anyway doesn't it, and then they'd have to prove they'd lasted a reasonable time, which I don't think <2 years is.
I've had a G2 (the 4th or 5th warranty replacement on a G1, I've lost count) since January and I've replaced the battery just now for the 3rd time. Probably 2-3 months out of the first battery, a few weeks out of the next and now we shall see if it just degrades again like the G1.
We'll see. I think the battery covers and o-rings are just too flimsy to remove after every ride and not get worn out super quickly. You just shouldn't have to either.
Vector 2s one sided showing as 474 after platinum discount at wiggle
That is good. £511 on Rose Bikes if you don't have platinum discount.
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http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/y394/dansipods2/Screen%20Shot%202016-05-16%20at%2010.11.43_zpsjksij4hg.pn g"/> [/IMG][/URL]
£791 for the full fat version seems very good!
Seems my G2 Stages battery door wrecks the o-ring every time I change the battery.
When I come to change the battery, the o-ring seal seems to have been stretched and pops out of the seal groove and will then not fit back as it is too big.
Its happened 3 times now, both when I've used a little silicon grease to ease the door closing and also when I haven't.
Oh and I'm currently down to about a week between battery changes.
Aggghhhh!!!!
Doesn't really seem worthy of a new thread when the relevant audience are likely all on this thread... First Connect IQ app that could actually be interesting, prob gonna give it a go tomorrow - I'm intrigued by what it's offering. I like the idea of medals whilst I ride!
Nick, how did/do you find this? Any good? Does it work?
Weird how some Stages are better than others. My g2 warranty replacement (replaced a g1) has been good, I'd even consider another when I get rid of the fsa crank (I hate hate hate megaexo). Battery life is not phenomenal but acceptable, I sometimes get signal dropouts when on the turbo, but curiously not on the road.
Vector 2s one sided showing as 474 after platinum discount at wiggle
wiggle just upped the platinum discount to 17% until may 30th, now £456
makes Pioneer Ultegra £414 to
makes Pioneer Ultegra £414 too
oof, nice
4iii now on sale at probikekit. £349 for 105 single sided.
http://www.probikekit.co.uk/brands/4iiii.list
I've just gone for a Pioneer single side in anticipation of the Stages failing again.
Thought about the 4iii but the Pioneer is IPX6 and IPX7 rated so its good for immersion up to 1m and water jet spray. Don't know what claims Stages or 4iii make on their units.
The only potential pain, is that it looks like you have to stick a magnet to your chainstay with the Pioneer.
Don't think you do anymore do you? Thought they did away with it. Would quite like something on the MTB, so i can quantify my mediocrity on whichever bike I'm on!
I need to read the instructions in the box a bit more closely maybe 😉 but there are some other bits in the box other than just a crank arm...
Is it normal to have the power numbers on Strava to be considerably lower than on Garmin Connect or Training Peaks?
My average power is usually about 30-40 watts less than is recorded elsewhere using the same data (Likewise weighted average compared to normalised) and segment power seems down on what i expect it should be. Not a big deal but as the figures are public i'd prefer it to be inflated rather than deflated 😀
Don't know, but off the top of my head could it be strava counts zero in the averaging and others don't?
I.e. is it average power while moving vs. average power while pedalling?
The others record zeros too but perhaps strava counts it differently
Weird. Strava and TrainingPeaks say the same for me. NP tends to read a few watts higher than the Strava Weighted Power, but average is the same. Do you have auto-pause on? May be something to do with that if you stop a lot.
Yep, pioneer comes with magnet for the chainstays.
Probably get nailed for import/VAT, but Vector 2s are $800 [url= https://www.rei.com/product/891590/garmin-vector-2-power-meter-pedals?cm_mmc=aff_AL-_-29267-_-37531-_-NA&avad=37531_bb5dad8f&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rei.com%2Fproduct%2F891590%2Fgarmin-vector-2-power-meter-pedals%3Fcm_mmc%3Daff_AL-_-29267-_-37531-_-NA%26avad%3D37531_bb5dad8f&avad=37531_bb5dad8f ]here[/url] using REIMEMBER2016 (once you pay $20 to join) or $480 for the 2Ss.
Just got a Platinum 16% discount code for PBK, brings the 105 4iiii down to 290 quid 8)
By the time they release something LIMITS is going to appear positively extortionate at this rate!
Pity the unit appears to be crank specific.
4iiii? Yes, they seem to be selling them in the UK like a Stages at the moment, with either a 105 or Ultegra LH crank arm. Seem to recall them having some issue with shipping the glue to DIY.
Yep, they're still only doing factory installations, and have recently started selling pre-fitted cranks, which makes sense as it enables their output to grow and allows a proper distribution model.
Seems a shame, as it was a very promising product which is less appealing (IMO) as LH only on certain cranks.
Seems a shame, as it was a very promising product which is less appealing (IMO) as LH only on certain cranks.
Agreed. If I didn't care about dual sided and was considering a Stages, a 4iiii being about 150 quid cheaper would get my attention!
By the time they release something LIMITS is going to appear positively extortionate at this rate!
The cyborgs will have taken over by the time LIMITS produce anything to sell! 😆
The cyborgs will have taken over by the time LIMITS produce anything to sell!
😆
I resisted the urge to say something along those lines! I see [url= http://limits.technology/today-we-have-some-great-news-to-share-with-you/ ]as of Tuesday [/url] they have 50 units ready to ship, although they're now doing some testing on them 😕
Anyone using Stages with a Garmin 520?
My 500 used to offer to calibrate the Stages when it detected it before each ride. The 520 doesn't and I have to delve into the menus (which I ultimately don't). Does calibration even matter that much?
I don't think anyone really bothers calibrating that often. I did it once a week at best or once every couple of months at worst and the calibration value always came out within 1 unit, even in the hottest days of summer and coldest days of winter (as far as I can tell temperature differences are one of the main reasons to calibrate). I got in to the habit of calibrating before every 20 minute test but even that dropped off 😳
I got lazy with calibrating my Powertap, and eventually the data was total shit! I thought I was just getting fitter, but it got a bit daft, and the trouble then was that I had no idea how much of the data was total rubbish.
Try and calibrate my P1s every ride now!