Because of hideous reliability and occasionally dubious data quality?
Reliability issues yeah dubious data ??? Said this a million times I had pretty much unlimited access to SRAM lab at one time all the data from that (4+tests) correlated exactly with my stages & as my fitness changed across the season all lab tests & real time use was the same.
I recently got a stage gxp from merlin £365 - buzzin...why spend more?
I know quite a few testers who have had Stages. Some have had dubious data quality (usually consistent over-reading, some faffing with the calibration kit seemed to help a little but then it'd drift out again.) All have had reliability issues. Most have got their money back and brought something else, often having already had two or three replacement units from Stages.
Hope they have this sorted with the new unit.
dubious data
My Stages does spike up to 2000W once every 4 or 5 months and it's a known fault... but true, there nothing poor about the data that stops you "training" effectively
Because of hideous reliability and occasionally dubious data quality
Not sure where the dubious data comment is coming from. Data is more than good enough for training and that's what you want them for.
Reliability has been another matter, but the latest one I've had has been out in all weathers and still going strong. In fact, I've stopped worrying about it now - which means it'll go an break now that I've written that!
dubious data quality (usually consistent over-reading
Consistently over-reading is not really a problem unless you have other devices and they all give slight different readings anyway. Consistency is the key word here.
Consistently over-reading is not really a problem unless you have other devices and they all give slight different readings anyway. Consistency is the key word here.
You are right to an extent. Though I have 3 different power meters and regularly check them against each other. And quite a few of those I know have multiple PM's too and do the same. Not unusual for them to be a few watts between them, but a few tens of watts and that starts to shake your confidence in the data being displayed.
My new one is currently useless anyway unless I find the pedal I took off the warranty one, which you would have thought is kept in a safe place... like the bike/tool box where all the bike stuff goes 🙁 😕
I have had 2000watts from the XTR which at first I put down to pedal strike then I rethought it & realised no, the power meter doesn't lie 🙂
Touch wood, I've got 2 and both have been spot on - data looks consistent when compared to a powertap I had
I ended up getting Vector 2 as Wiggle now price match the German stores, so paid £850 all in. Really pleased with them so far but the pods still appear fragile so care needs to be taken when clipping in.
took the plunge on the INpower from rotor for my Pivot, seems a neat package, better than my P2M, will see how data compares across the two different bikes.
Hmmm. I'm in a bit of a quandary. I would like a power meter, but don't want to spend too much. I use Campagnolo gear, so have a carbon crankset, which rules out many options, and I don't want to switch over to Shimano or SRAM - just too much money. So that leaves a hub meter or pedals... a Powertap hub is about £600, and then I'd have to build it up, which is quite a bit of money / hassle, so I'm not keen on that. So that leaves pedals. Powertap P1 seem to be the best, but they only do twin set-ups, which are £1000. Seems that they are unlikely to do a left-only option, since they already have the cheaper end covered with the C1.. except for people with Campagnolo. So that leaves Vectors or BePro. BePro are nice and cheap, but a bit of an unknown quantity long term, and that 'pod' bit seems to be getting bashed up a lot from being a bit in the way of shoes. Vectors are expensive, though they've just had a price drop in the US. Hopefully that'll make its way here, but I don't see it so far. Left-only Vector 2s is $700 in the US, which is pretty reasonable once you add in a 10% discount from e.g. Clever Training.
So... does anyone know how Garmin tend to support units bought from another country? If I got one from the US and had issues with it, would Garmin UK help me? Anyone know how likely it is that the price drop will head over here?
I ended up getting Vector 2 as Wiggle now price match the German stores, so paid £850 all in. Really pleased with them so far but the pods still appear fragile so care needs to be taken when clipping in.
Had them for over a year now and used a lot. Not had any problems with any sort of fragility (and mine are the original vectors.) They aren't really in the way when clipping in if installed properly, at least IME. The only time I ever give them consideration is when leaning my bike against stuff just to make sure there's no weight against the pod.
took the plunge on the INpower from rotor for my Pivot, seems a neat package, better than my P2M, will see how data compares across the two different bikes.
Curious, how better than the P2M?
Anyone know how likely it is that the price drop will head over here?
You can get a 2S from the Germans for £550 which seems a pretty good deal to me (and sounds like Wiggle will match that if you want to buy from the UK - though I'd stump up the extra 300 quid and get both sides like bigdugsbaws did.) Taking sales tax into consideration if buying in the US then there's probably not much in it. If you're importing from the US then the Germans are probably cheaper.
I'm curious as to why people are so concerned about having both sides. Assuming that you have no asymmetrical injuries / pathology that you're trying to monitor or correct, surely a one-sided measurement is good enough. Sure, if you're consistently 45/55 balanced then the total power estimated will be about 10% out, but it's presumably quite unlikely that you'll be 55% R one day and then 55% L the next? So your total measurements will be consistent, and broadly accurate. Also, from what I can tell without having tried it, the pedalling dynamics stuff is mildly interesting but not necessarily useful. So... what do you do with both sides that you couldn't do with one?
Thanks, and sorry if it sounds like I'm arguing - I'm not, I'm genuinely curious because I can't see how the extra is worth £300. I appreciate the info from people here with actual experience of this stuff...!
I can think of only one situation that it (dual sided PM) would be useful for me and that's when doing individual leg exercises on the turbo trainer: you'd get power output for one side but not the other, actually a 100% difference in power between left and right! 😕
That's about it Gray. I think a lot of it comes down to no-one really having any idea how L/R balance changes over time or over the course of a ride with fatigue for example. It is more being a little skeptical of an unknown rather than some known problem if that makes sense? I have always been a consistent 49/51 so it's not something that bothers me. That said, you have to consider that the current Stages prices and current P2M prices for example make it quite difficult to justify a Stages.
I can think of only one situation that it (dual sided PM) would be useful for me and that's when doing individual leg exercises on the turbo trainer: you'd get power output for one side but not the other, actually a 100% difference in power between left and right!
Simple. Use the same trainer resistance setting for both legs and keep the speed the same a la Trainerroad Virtual Power.
@DanW Actually I meant when using TrainerRoad and the reported power. You could revert to virtual power for those sessions.
You don't *need* to. Only if you want some power numbers recorded which isn't a big deal for how well you are actually "training". The speed data for that interval will tell you how well it went for each leg so there is still a record to evaluate post session
For me even that's not an issue on the turbo trainer since I'd be seeing the trainer's power data, and indeed TrainerRoad would be controlling the trainer's resistance to keep it on target. I've no burning desire to do single leg efforts on the road. I understand the point about not knowing whether your left-right balance will shift either short-term with fatigue / stress or longer-term, but it seems most likely to me that it won't shift dramatically.
I did read one review where the reviewer wrote that they wondered if they had been subconsciously pushing harder with their left leg to get better numbers. I can't see me doing that though, out on the road.
I have a dual sided and a Stages. I see no tangible benefit to having both, other than fleeting interest in pedalling balance. Consistently 45/55 here.
I have a couple of dual sided ones and had a Vector single sided too before I doubled up with another pedal. My balance does vary quite a bit between 50/50 and about 43/57 depending on fatigue and how hard I'm pushing. So for threshold type intervals a single LHS can under-read by up to around 20 watts. Which is quite a lot.
Interesting, thanks very much all.
Just noticed on the Rose Bikes website that they've got the Garmin Vector 2's on special for today only at £706 if anyone's looking for a set.
http://www.rosebikes.co.uk/article/garmin-vector-2-pedal-based-powermeter/aid:813844
Gnnnnrggh! That's a good price, but it's still a lot of money to put some numbers on your Garmin..!
Tempted to pick up another pair for the turbo bike at that price to replace the powertap 😕
£688 by the Euro price according to Google! Still think I'd prefer P1s, tempted though!
I just splurged on a Powertap GS hub - on sale for £399 here:
http://www.cyclepowermeters.com//powertap-gs-3013-p.asp
Need to get a rim and spokes of course, but that'll still come out pretty cheap relatively speaking...
Just need to choose a rim now!
Gotta love dcrainmaker!
So much kudos to the guy
Seems pretty fair given where they are. Doesn't instil confidence!
I just splurged on a Powertap GS hub - on sale for £399 here:
do you want the direct phone number for Paligap?
i don't think i can ever recall an article as scathing as that on DC Rainmaker
Re the powertap GS. Give it a good going over before build it up. Picked up a cheap one about a year ago then just couldn't get it to pair reliably. Annoyingly this was after I'd built it up into a wheel. Sent it back in the end and got some Vectors.
[quote> http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/11/limits-meter-really.html
Oooofffft!!
Seems a pretty fair assessment. Their updates have been regular but very "fluffy". Which was sort of fair enough at the outset, but they haven't got very much more real as they go on.
Given what they have shown so far, I don't see how they can remotely realistically expect to ship in 2015. If I take what I know of getting version 1 software products "done" and extrapolate for the complexities of hardware, they would be more or less shipping first production units from manufacturer to customer to hit the date and as the article points out, that glosses over a whole heap of product validation cycles/challenges.
My 2 cents. Garmin Vector 2 on my road bike. Lovely, never let me down and works rain and shine. High recommend it.
Stages XT (Gen 1) on my MTB. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh! On my second one, since June, the first one never worked when I really needed it to and probably about to warranty my second one as the tabs broke and water got into it on my Sunday ride. Only realized the tab was broken after my ride. Had gotten a low pm battery warning towards the end of the ride. I also duct tape up around the cover to be safe. It did not look wet/damp so just swapped battery and calibrated. Had got a new cover from the local Evans
It stopped working on my way to work the next day. Left it to dry at home with cover off and it seems to have come back to life. For how long?
There service is great, by the way cant fault that.
But for peace of mind and knowing that it will work every time I climb on the bike, 0 confidence. Its always a 'Ah look its working today moment!'. 🙁
I will push to get the Gen2 on the warranty and wish I had gone with Power 2 Max. Trawling the forum at Rainmaker it is well rated and rock solid reliable for MTB. The electronics are completely encased in plastic. You can fry the battery with water but not lose the meter.
Buy cheap buy twice!
Thanks for the advice all - I'll try and test the Powertap GS (as much as I can) before building it up. Maybe even before ordering a rim and spokes. Hub is hopefully being sent out today, and I'm in no crazy rush to be using it so I've got time to fiddle once it arrives.
Thanks for the advice all - I'll try and test the Powertap GS (as much as I can) before building it up. Maybe even before ordering a rim and spokes.
Wish I'd done that. At least the rim was still put to good use.
Stages XT (Gen 1) on my MTB. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh! On my second one, since June, the first one never worked when I really needed it to and probably about to warranty my second one as the tabs broke and water got into it on my Sunday ride. Only realized the tab was broken after my ride. Had gotten a low pm battery warning towards the end of the ride. I also duct tape up around the cover to be safe. It did not look wet/damp so just swapped battery and calibrated. Had got a new cover from the local Evans
It stopped working on my way to work the next day. Left it to dry at home with cover off and it seems to have come back to life. For how long?
There service is great, by the way cant fault that.
But for peace of mind and knowing that it will work every time I climb on the bike, 0 confidence. Its always a 'Ah look its working today moment!
I've had my XTR M980 Stages for a year. Initial issues were broken tab related. Latest firmware seemed to make a big difference. Have had occasional issues with batteries needing to be reseated (wonder how many good batteries I threw away) which makes me wonder if there are size tolerances at play in battery brands
I've just bought a second one at clearance to avoid so much swapping. I have 4 XTR M980 cranksets, don't plan on changing and find the Stages solution the neatest way to train and race with power. Most of the other solutions involve chainsets I don't want to use.
105 5700 Stages is a decent price at Evans, choice of ex display but new at £337 or box fresh for £359
http://www.evanscycles.com/products/stages/power-meter-shimano-105-5700-175mm-ex-display--ec123662
http://www.evanscycles.com/products/stages/power-meter-shimano-105-5700-ec055152
Hmm would love one for my winter bike. Any problem with a 5700 fitting to a 5800 chainset?
I see Merlin has dropped the rival version to 340 as well.
Just waiting for Xtr to drop to closer to 350ish. Got to be on the cards.
I'm running 7900 on 9000 if it helps
Bought a 5700 from Evans a few weeks ago, they were £415.
They're 1st gen models not the 2nd gen shown if that matters...
Bad man. Was not supposed to be spending anything on bikes this month. They've also got a promotion on with £20 voucher and its 7% cash back at topcashback. Not too fussed if it is a mark1 mates just failed close to the end of the 2 year warranty but was sorted in a week.
DCRainmaker on Limits again
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/11/limits-responds-still.html
wonder if they will head this way
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2015-11/20/zano-investigated-trading-standards
My Powertap GS is here. As far as I can tell without building it up it seems to work... Have connected to it with my Garmin several times, checked that the torque display goes up when I twist it with my hands. Anything else I can check before ordering a rim...? Ta!
Might be worth popping the cap off and seeing if the software upgraded thing can talk to it.
Just waiting for Xtr to drop to closer to 350ish. Got to be on the cards
I bought when the stock level of the 175mm was down to 3. That left 2 about 2-3 weeks ago. I wouldn't leave it too long!
I'm wedded to XTR M980 for about the next decade (multiple chainsets and spare rings) so having another Stages made sense.
is that from Merlin or Evans?
edit - Merlin, unable to add 3 to basket
Might be worth popping the cap off and seeing if the software upgraded thing can talk to it.
Thanks. Hmm, I talked to someone about building it up, and he said he's not a fan of the GS since the 'flanges' such that they are (straight pull) are so close together, so they don't build up super-strong wheels. And I'm not super-light (only 78 kg, so not THAT fat!).
So now I'm having second thoughts.... I could still send the GS back. Vector 2s would be about the same price, and a lot less hassle (I have wheels that I'm happy with anyway). But that would be left side only.... gnnnrgh! Not sure what to do. Might wait until tomorrow just in case of any bargains. Ideal would be full Vector 2 or P1, but I don't think that'll be cheap enough for me.
Ideal would be full Vector 2 or P1, but I don't think that'll be cheap enough for me.
With the vector you can buy the 2S then get the other pedal later if initial outlay seems a bit much.
Also new review of the InfoCrank over at dcrainmaker...
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/11/verve-infocrank-review.html
Can't see why you would. Unless there is a serious price restructuring. And having to superglue something to the frame?! At least they are planning to do away with that.
While on the subject of crank based PM's, going almost un-noticed is the PowerTap C1. Dual sided, can be had for 520 quid. Not really looked into them. Assume there's something not right as no-one seems to be buying.
Edit... hmm worn chainrings means sending it back to PowerTap. That'd put me off a bit. Still for a turbo bike solution it would probably be pretty good.
It's rings only isn't it? And 110mm 5 arm BCD - who uses that?
It's rings only isn't it? And 110mm 5 arm BCD - who uses that?
Can be had cheap 🙂
I have Campagnolo cranks so the C1 is out for me. Does seem a little restricted...
It looks really really shit too, like something off a £100 supermarket bike!
Can't argue with that. I'd not put it on a bike that I'd take out in public!
Just waiting for Xtr to drop to closer to 350ish. Got to be on the cards.
£404 at Merlin now
I got my new stages (Third one) second Gen Last night under warranty replacement. The housing (second one) had actually cracked which was picked by the stages support person.
Profile of the meter and the cap look much better. This is the one the bike journos have been reviewing of late and not whinging, so they must have got it right. Only time will tell.
Have to say, the service of my local Evans, Stages and Saddleback have been great.
If you shopping around for cheap stages on the Black Friday sales. Try and avoid the first generation and use a LBS where you can do a face to face warranty replacement if required.
In case you've missed it, 2nd gen Stages on latest 105 to be had for 400 quid at Sigma Sport. 500 for Ultegra.
Also, would I be mad to buy a PowerTap C1? My old PowerTap hub I think is on its last legs on the turbo mule and I quite fancy moving to a direct drive turbo at some point too. Can get the C1 for 420 quid. Very tempting.
Hmm just noticed it does BLE as well as ANT+ so I could run TrainerRoad on the iPad. Hmmm. I was going to get an ANT+ dongle so that'd save me 40 quid at least.
Glad to see 2nd generation Stages in XTR M980 - but at nearly double the price of Merlin's 1st generation. I think if mine start to play up again I'll be knocking on Saddleback's door!
Well my C1's turned up today. Looks a decent enough bit of kit. Shall fit it to the turbo bike tomorrow and run it together with the PowerTap hub for a while and compare the numbers before retiring the hub. Be nice to be able to run TrainerRoad on the iPad. Anyone know how well BLE works compared to ANT+?
The Stages at £404 are very tempting - https://www.merlincycles.com/stages-power-shimano-105-5700-63995.html
Amusing to see LIMITS's timeline slipping seconds after they told DCR off for suggesting they were never going to meet their own schedule 🙄
Evans were doing the 105 5700 even cheaper at £360 plus a £20 voucher. Deal might still be on.
Amusing to see LIMITS's timeline slipping seconds after they told DCR off for suggesting they were never going to meet their own schedule
They're saying that they'll be shipping batches in January, February and March. From what I've read about them I'd be amazed if they have shipped any by March.
They've also said that there's going to be a prototype available for reviewers in two weeks. I'll believe that when I see it.
March 2017.. 2018...?
InfoCrank price cut ([url= http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/infocrank-power-meter-pricing-slashed-45838/ ]here[/url]). Now £1150 RRP. Not much more than a set of Vectors or P1's. Though still about twice the price of the C1's and the cheaper Power2Max. Don't know why I'd want to spend more on the InfoCrank.
Pretty pleased with the C1 rings so far. Easy enough to fit to a 5 arm Tiagra chainset. Stuck it on the turbo bike. Paired ANT+ and BLE. Though no power initially reported over BLE. Quick firmware update with the "no power reported fix" using the iOS app and all is good. Shall run it in parallel with the PowerTap hub tonight and do some comparisons.
I might well have done if they hadn't sold out before I saw them... bah!
What were they? Link doesn't work for me.
Vector 2 and 2s for very good prices. Something like £7xx for Vector 2, £450 for 2s, if I remember rightly. I could just about still send back my Powertap GS (today is last day of 14 day return period), so would have been sorely tempted if I'd seen it before they all went.
Well worth checking out Canyon sales. I got my RHS Vector upgrade there for £380 after a mate pointed it out (he'd just brought a Vector S from them.)
Interesting first turbo with the C1 here. Seems to be reading between about 5 and 10% over the powetap hub (which is fairly consistent with my Vectors and Power2Max.) I'd expect them to be a few watts higher but not that much. Though checking the instructions I've not torqued the chainring bolts enough (thought it was 5 Nm but needs to be 11 Nm) so shall do them up and check again.
DC Rainmaker has a review of the [url= http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/12/powertap-chainring-review.html ]PowerTap C1[/url] up now.
Mine unfortunately still seem to be reading about 20 watts high and don't seem to be "settling in". Shall be giving PowerTap a call.
Interesting. Have you taken the rings off and re-torqued/did you do it diagonally from bolt to bolt?
Yup, as per instructions. Just checked and my chain is a bit stretched, shall try changing that and see if it makes a difference.
I've pretty much decided that I want to get a power meter for the bike and I've been looking into a few different ones.
So far I've pretty much decided that I wan to go with a pedal based system so I can easily switch it between two bikes, both of which have different BB's so a crank based unit is a non-starter.
I'm leaning towards a Garmin Vector 2S and an upgrade to a second pedal as and when funds allow. Is there any greta reason to go for a set of Powertap P1's over the Garmin?
From what I can see so far there's not much difference apart from price.
Well the P1 is double sided, so you need to compare to the Vector 2, not the S, and the Powertap is cheaper. Easier to swap between bikes, so I'd get P1s over Vector 2. To compare to 2S is a bit apples/oranges.
I should've been a bit clearer there, I'm comparing the Vector 2S once the extra pedal's been added to make the set to the P1's.
The price difference doesn't seem to be huge, you can pick up the Vectors for about £830 a set if I were to buy them complete rather than one at a time and the P1's are £880 with the Wiggle platinum discount.
One thing with the P1's is that the DC Rainmaker review says that they need to use Powertap specific cleats but the description on Wiggle says that they are Look Keo compatible.
I'd go with P1's if you ever intend moving them between bikes. Vector owners would rather swap chainsets than risk breaking the pods. P1's are treated like any other pedal. I believe the KEO cleats fit, but may creak. The ones with grip may be a better fit.
I have the vectors and would say TiRed's advice is right. Not so worried about breaking the pods, but they do need to be installed quite carefully and take a bit of bedding in. I very infrequently swap between bikes and when I do I just leave the pedals on and swap the entire crankset. Still really like them though. And the V2 pods are a lot easier to install.
Ignoring the swapping of pedals thing the Vectors are a bit lighter, and if you use a recent Garmin head unit they do all the Dynamics pedalling analysis stuff, which aside from producing some pretty graphs is fairly useless!