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If you could only get one frame custom made for you, which would you go for (road or mtb), assuming you ride both 'genres' relatively equally?
Tough to say. Less of a need for custom road IMO, but I'm less likely to change a road bike.
I got a custom mtb as I couldn't get exactly what I wanted off thE shelf.
Same here as Cynic-Al. Exactly the same, spookily.
Road.
I think fads and fashions change far more in MTB - imagine if you'd got a custom MTB 10 years ago, now it wouldn't take any of the longer travel forks without screwing up the geometry, probably wouldn't have disc brake tabs etc etc.
Things seem much more steady on the road. Apart from the increased use of carbon and the changing BB/chainset standards, not a lot has changed and the road is still the road, it hasn't evolved in the way that MTB trails have.
My ideal custom bike would be the 1st generation Specialized Langster SS I have now but in Ti with a carbon straight blade fork. Sounds weird but that bike is SO good and so versatile. It caused a few looks when I did road races on it, upset a few people when they got beaten by a SS. 🙂
Tough to say. Less of a need for custom road IMO, but I'm less likely to change a road bike.
I find that odd, would say the opposite.
But i think road bikes are works of art and mtbs are tools, if that makes sense. I am much more likely to keep a road bike for a while, things don't date and things don't wear anything like mtbs. You could buy a early 90's road frame and it would accept a brand new groupset and fork, try fitting a 15-20 year old mtb with brand new kit. The fork would be the wrong length, it might have the wrong headset diameter, you wouldn't be able to fit disc brakes, seatpost may be an issue, etc etc.
def road / touring bike if you want to keep using it for the same purpose...
most older classic mtb seem to have been transform into slick wheel hack/commuter bikes rather than be used for mtb
definitely road, probably a tourer - something that you would keep for a loooong time
not a mountain bike as it wouldn't be a susser, can you get custom sussers?
Road bike for sure. A nice one is timeless and there's pretty much zero chance of some aspect of the componentry becomeing obselete or difficult to source.
pretty much my thoughts as well, good to hear them echoed though 🙂
More of a need for a custom road bike for positioning. I would go for a custom road bike again, I broke the last one. 😥 I think there is a greater chance of breaking an MTB than a road bike.
definitely road, probably a tourer - something that you would keep for a loooong time
touring bikes have hardly changed in the last 20 years
I normally only change frames when they crack/snap (or are stolen)
so road for me too as an mtb will break quicker.
Al - What couldn't you get off the shelf?
This may not help you but this is what I'd go for. I have a FS MTB which I love. But my wrist does not like drop bars, it likes Mary bars.
So I need a road capable bike with a long enough to tube to run Mary bars. So I think I'd have a 29er type MTB with all the braze on for touring/utility stuff. Two set of wheels one with largish road slicks the other proper pff road tyres. I'm not sure whether it would be rigid or 80mm forks but thats an easy swap.
An on one 29er frame would be close but I'm sure I'd want to fiddle with the angles and probably go a bit larger.
i would get a tourer built, suitable to take 40c tyres, then you could use it for either or either. 8)
Double post with ton but the same idea, but flat bared and space for 50mm tyres....
ampthill.............mary bar equipped on mine too.
comfort over speed every day for me.
Road, because as stated less evolution in standards / geometry. You are more likely to spend hours in the same position on a road bike so a correct fitting frame could be more beneficial, although as your fitness changes so can what is an ideal fit, although this should be fixable with stem changes e.t.c as long as any changes are not too dramatic. I'd go light tour / audax bike. Pair of light wheels with skinny tyres and it would be good for road rides, slightly heavier wheels and you could tour, not expedition style touring but round uk / Europe style.
road, definately.
you will notice the difference in material and tubeset choice more.
the personal fit will be the big factor too.
Less of a need for custom road IMO
like most of the above posts i disagree with this too.
Note my choice is based on the following: I live in a rural area 6 miles from the nearest shop. I tend to drink at a pub 11 miles away so bikes are a necessity as I have no car license. I have 3 bicycles (all mountain bikes although set up differently) and 2 trailers. Furthermore I am not particuly good at repairing bikes.
This is what I am going to buy as my bike for life: A Thorn raven touring bike with rohloff speed hub 26" rims preferably with disc brakes. The aim is to have one bike which is multipurpose and minimal maintenance IE touring/audax Mountain biking (26").
The reason I am going for the Thorn is that when you buy a rohloff speedhub they will easily cost you a £1000 or more and then you have to make sure its right for your drop outs. While if you buy it built in to the bike the drop outs will be right AND THE PRICE WILL BE MASSIVELY CHEAPER. IE Thorn without the rohloff will only be £650 cheaper. OR put another way you are paying £650 for the rohloff. Now rohloff have 14 gears (hub gears) 1 more than 27 geared detailer + they have the same ratios i.e. 17% apart. Now if you want to go for a cycle round the world this (rohloff) is what everyone uses. They run forever all you have to replace are one chain wheel and one cog at the back and the chain all of which last considerably longer than the equivalent on a derailleur. Ohh and occasional oil change. Now as it is 26" wheels the choice of tyres is huge although you may have to take off the mudguards for some of the tyres. The geometry of the frame will always mean that if you have a rack on, the bags will NOT catch your shoes. Any other bike I have will be just an emergency spare. Now other reasons for the Thorn is that each model has 13 different sizes IE takes every reasonable height and leg length. Next the frames are made out of top of the range steel (cromoly I think its called, which has little difference in weight to a light weight aluminum or even a titanium frame (far to expensive) BUT both the latter are much likelier to brake and are near impossible to have repaired (cheap and heavy thick walled aluminum is repairable). Steel on the other hand is very easy to have repaired. Weight wise we are not looking at anything more than mountain bike but much stronger IE it is designed to take weight and steel is less likely to brake so still good for of road. Price about £1800 depending on accessories. Remember bike for life. Now I will have to save up or I may do a zero interest credit card. Better still an Ebay purchase.....you never know bargains do come up I know I have missed them!!!!!!!!.
PS relaxed frame size/fitting
PPS The only problem I have is the lack of front suspension A life saver if you go down in a hidden pot hole (hidden in a puddle) and do a super man over the handle bars!
29er Ti or 953. Can use for road, CX, or mtb.
brandeberryj
you've certanly read the Torn marketing blurb!
In some ways I agree in others I'm not sure.
I've got size 12 feet and toured on 3 different mountain bikes. I've never caught my feet on a pannier.
If you've been on the forum a while you will have read about Rohloff failures.
I can't see 13 Nomad sizes and the one that would fit me has a head tube too lonk for a suspension fork?
Well thanks for getting me back onto the Thorn website. If my all round bike becomes a reality it may well be custom.....
Hi epicyclo
Can you tell me what the latter means?29er Ti or 953. Can use for road, CX, or mtb.
Hi epicyclo29er Ti or 953. Can use for road, CX, or mtb.
Can you tell me what the latter means?
29er Ti = titanium mountain bike with 29" wheels
953 = the name of the top end Reynolds steel tubeset
CX = cyclo-cross
MTB = mountain bike.
By the way your cut-n-pasted blurb is wrong, "cromoly" simply refers to any steel alloy with Chromium and Molybdenum in it (ie most of them), there are many many different grades of cromoly, it's simply a generic term from the early days of mountain biking.
Steel is no more or less likely to "brake" (you mean break) than aluminium or titanium, it depends on the build quality. I've seen many broken frames in my time in the bike industry, steel and alu were the common ones, one or two Ti ones (although Ti frames are much rarer so the %'s don't really stack up).
Rohloff hubs - ah yes, I'm sure simonfbarnes wil be along shortly to describe his experiences of those... They're not quite as bombproof and immune to failure as you seem to believe.
In fact, if you're set on hub gears, go for an Alfine 11 over a Rohloff.
Thorn's range of sizing is indeed very impressive but the whole point of a custom frame is that it is built to whatever size/geometry you need/want.
ampthill - Member
brandeberryjyou've certanly read the Torn marketing blurb!
In some ways I agree in others I'm not sure.
I've got size 12 feet and toured on 3 different mountain bikes. I've never caught my feet on a pannier.
If you've been on the forum a while you will have read about Rohloff failures.
I can't see 13 Nomad sizes and the one that would fit me has a head tube too lonk for a suspension fork?
Well thanks for getting me back onto the Thorn website. If my all round bike becomes a reality it may well be custom.....
There is no such thing as perfection and I am never taken in by anybody. You seem to forget that Thorn gives 100 day money back guarantee and as stated rohloff are used for round the world etc cycle rides. Furthermore you fail to realize I am dependent on my bicycles (the 2 buses a week are not always suitable) so I need an all rounder to pull my very large trailer full of apples to make cider or firewood (invariably unseasoned). So as many gears as possible is clearly an advantage. Good strong bike is also a necessity as dykes have a habit of jumping out in front of me on the way back from the pub on roads which are completely unlit so I do not always spot them sneaking out. AND I clearly wrote RAVEN NOT NOMAD. There are 13 Ravens I have the internet brochure in front of me. As stated you can catch your heels on the bags in my case my caradices where at least on one of my bikes I occasionally catch my heal. You seem to believe because you never catch your heels nobody else has?? but I find it very annoying again look what I am using it for. If I fill it up with shopping the bags can become misshaped by oddly shaped items I may have in them as opposed to touring where you can pack them better.
PS
Don’t know? Well at least I do and I intend on following it through. It is what I call a necessity.If my all round bike becomes a reality it may well be custom.....
bike for life - fine (bet you don't keep using it even for 10yrs though)
custom bike - unless you and the builder know what you're doing (and you truly need custom for some good reason - or you just mean extra fittings) I think it's got plenty of potential for disaster
brandeberryj
Well I'm sorry if I've upset you and confused two Thorn models
[i]Good strong bike is also a necessity as [b]dykes[/b] have a habit of jumping out in front of me on the way back from the pub on roads which are completely unlit so I do not always spot them sneaking out.[/i]
Could you explain this bit please?
It sounds like you are troubled by stealth lesbians?
road
Will always be as useful and fast as the first day you got it...less likely to break as well.
I'm just going to pop in here that I have never seen the point of a custom frame; I'd spend the money you save by going off the peg on better kit...
Hi epicyclo29er Ti or 953. Can use for road, CX, or mtb.
Can you tell me what the latter means?29er Ti = titanium mountain bike with 29" wheels
953 = the name of the top end Reynolds steel tubeset
CX = cyclo-cross
MTB = mountain bike.By the way your cut-n-pasted blurb is wrong, "cromoly" simply refers to any steel alloy with Chromium and Molybdenum in it (ie most of them), there are many many different grades of cromoly, it's simply a generic term from the early days of mountain biking.
Steel is no more or less likely to "brake" (you mean break) than aluminium or titanium, it depends on the build quality. I've seen many broken frames in my time in the bike industry, steel and alu were the common ones, one or two Ti ones (although Ti frames are much rarer so the %'s don't really stack up).Rohloff hubs - ah yes, I'm sure simonfbarnes wil be along shortly to describe his experiences of those... They're not quite as bombproof and immune to failure as you seem to believe.
In fact, if you're set on hub gears, go for an Alfine 11 over a Rohloff.Thorn's range of sizing is indeed very impressive but the whole point of a custom frame is that it is built to whatever size/geometry you need/want.
Wow. I merely asked you what they stood for and I meant 29er Ti I knew what the rest stood for I was merely doing "a copy and paste". Unlike with cromoly where all I said was top of the range or are you saying that Thorn use crap steel? Also I was also writing about repair ability
Please remind where I said they were because I can't see it.They're not quite as bombproof and immune to failure as you seem to believe.
That was quite pathetic big deal I made a spelling mistake AND AS I WAS CLEARLY POINTING OUT IT WAS Reparability THAT WAS IMPORTANT. Oh by the way I am quite knowgable on metal as I was an inspector in factory testing material for British Nuclear fuels Rolls Royce aero engines etc. Note I"brake" (you mean break)
have left a spelling mistake for you to pick up!!
Alfine 11 over a Rohloff.
Very interesting so you are saying the Alfine 11 is bombproof? Are you sure? as they do not even appear to exist yet? And as I use my bicycles to pull a very large trailer sometimes full of firewood and at other times full of apples I think I will go for the 14 gear Rohloff to get me up the hills and they have the advantage of existing! Please try not to talk down to people this site is for everybody not just for you.
hmm, i suspect mtb design has largely settled down now - the next 20 years will see fewer changes compared to the previous 20.
so, in terms of future-proof-ness, i suspect both mtb and road frames will 'last' a lifetime.
but i'm much more likely to crash a mtb hard enough to kill a frame.
so if i had to guess, i reckon a road frame would last longer in my hands than a mtb frame.
(i already have a 20year old road frame which still rides beautifully, i wouldn't / couldn't use a 20yr old mtb frame in the same way i use my 'modern' frames)
but if wanted a custom frame* - i'd get a mtb frame, a curtis probably, similar to a blue pig, but with a few tweaks.
(*edit, i'm not sure i would. i agree with junkyard; why spend so much on a frame that you might bend when you next bundle yourself into a tree?)
road, tech seems to have shifted if not completely changed in last decade and whilst don't think sus and brakes will change as massively in the next 10 you're riding might. I've currently a 6 or 7 year old road frame and love it, can't see anything that'll change on it bar the kit in the next 6 years
get a vanilla or indy fab with ridiculously delicious detailing and never look back
😯
I think i might need some popcorn for this one!
i would go for road btw.
A custom road bike for sure, I think sizing and fit are more important for road use, plus it will last for ever.
MTB's often break and I chage what sort of riding I do quite often so a custom mtb probably wouldnt be worth it.
brandeberryj - sort yer life out
crikey - Member
Good strong bike is also a necessity as dykes have a habit of jumping out in front of me on the way back from the pub on roads which are completely unlit so I do not always spot them sneaking out.Could you explain this bit please?
It sounds like you are troubled by stealth lesbians?
Very amusing crikey. A dyke is a man made stream/river. I live on the Lincolnshire Wolds thats what they call them here. Even though Wolds is old english for hills there are still dykes on the hills and either way even if they are natural everyone still calls them dykes.
Very amusingIt sounds like you are troubled by stealth lesbians?
ampthill - Member
brandeberryjWell I'm sorry if I've upset you and confused two Thorn models
Hello again ampthill It appears you think I am upset by the fact that you confused two Thorn models. Somehow I think there is bit more to it than that, pity you are not capable of acknowledging that.
just a quickie............i have owned 2 thorn bikes, 1 mtb, 1 tourer.
both were extremely overpriced.
A life saver if you go down in a hidden pot hole (hidden in a puddle) and do a super man over the handle bars!
Going down on superman in a pot hole. I guess every super hero has there needs
Have you seen the headset spacers on Thorns Brandeberryj?
One of the best examples of a bad frame design i have seen.
ton - Member
just a quickie............i have owned 2 thorn bikes, 1 mtb, 1 tourer.
both were extremely overpriced.
Hi In what way were they overpriced? Can you be a bit more pacific as this is quite important to me? Why did you buy 2 by the way or did you get them both at the same time. Looking at the prices without rohloff nothing looks very expensive to me. At least not for a once in a lifetime purchase but would love to hear your views. Thanks JB
davidtaylforth - MemberA life saver if you go down in a hidden pot hole (hidden in a puddle) and do a super man over the handle bars!
Going down on superman in a pot hole. I guess every super hero has there needs
What are you talking about you sad little man. I once hit a pothole which was not visible in a big puddle and I flew over the top of the handlebars just missing the back of a lorry on a busy dual carriage way. I assume that wouldn't have happened if I had front suspension. Where does it say I have a gay fantasy about superman....are you sure it isn’t one of your fantasies?
brandeberryj, have you no idea what irony is?
Or with your knowledge of metal, perhaps you think it's like goldy and bronzey, only made of iron...
Sorry for the Blackadder reference but it just seemed so appropriate!
😉
Anyone else hearing Duelling Banjos from Deliverance?
I was fully aware that you were joking thats why I said you were ammusing??crazy-legs - Member
brandeberryj, have you no idea what irony is?"
although I have feeling this isn't irony?Or with your knowledge of metal, perhaps you think it's like goldy and bronzey, only made of iron..."
davidtaylforth - Member
brandeberryj - sort yer life out
Right oh..........What particular aspect of my life did you have in mind?
700 quid unpainted they were trying to get a grand for it!!
well i've never been in trouble for saying sorry before.
The track frame in that ebay link above...
Why would you make a lugged frame out of 853?? 853 is designed to be welded, not lugged.
I had a beautiful 853 road frame for about 10 years, the welds on it were impeccable. Nice dark to light blue fade paint job too.
Who else has already got their bike for life? - I think I've got mine.
It's a 97 Trek 970 mountain bike which I've had disc mounts fitted by M Steels when they still made frames.
Its current incarnation is as a heavy duty road tourer with dropped handle bars, cantis and horrible wheels in desperate need of an upgrade.
p.s. this thread is crying out for some bad taste Frankie Boyle joke about how long you're likely to last on a bike on British roads.
Steve-Austin - Member
Have you seen the headset spacers on Thorns Brandeberryj?
One of the best examples of a bad frame design i have seen.
Hi Steve-Austin
Thanks for that I won't go for the Thorn as unlike other bikes it is not absolutely perfect? Now as you may have guessed there is a certain amount of irony in that! But I am actually happy to consider anything else that would meet my criteria of an all rounder (please see all my requirements plus I have a liking for all night cycle rides which I thinks that meets the definition of Audax?) It must must be strong as I have to regularly cycle of road in the dark just to get to places (or back from them) without doing much greater distances. Thanks for your time (not being ironic) JB
i have a thorn raven enduro - thoses frames are cheap ..... nothing special at all - hell it wasnt even average ... lardy as **** !
i bought mines as part of a complete bike second hand that i wanted the hub from .... thats now being built into my fast ti MTB tourer
oh and they it didnt handle very nice , it had a very steep head angle , it has very tight tire clearance - 2.1 max ....
who ever designed it must have been riding in the mid 90s - thats the last time i rode a bike that handled like this thing - and i have a full on carbon race bike with head down arse up position and this trys to marry that racy geometry with a touring position ......
trail_rat - Member
i have a thorn raven enduro - thoses frames are cheap ..... nothing special at all - hell it wasnt even average ... lardy as **** !i bought mines as part of a complete bike second hand that i wanted the hub from .... thats now being built into my fast ti MTB tourer
The Hub as in Rohloff hub?????
They do actually state this in there brochure it seems adequate to me???......why so angryit has very tight tire clearance - 2.1 max ....
yes the hub . yes then add some mud ....
rear end clogs nicely with only that much clearance - i had a 1.9 in the rear and there still isnt much room
the hub is good , the frame is definantly to a price.
lucky for me it was just temporary !
[img] 
[/img]
- still has the rohloff drop out and clearance for 29 x 2.5 in the back - no really rough ebb (i have a nice ebb on another frame - the thorn solution is rough ! )
[img] 
[/img]
it is worth noting that they have discontinued the above frame and that the new sterling might be nicer !
How about one from [url= http://julieracingdesign.com/Galerie.html ]JRD[/url]?
If I was going custom I'd go for a road bike.
As far as the Rohloff hub is concerned, they are ideal for your intended use.
My brother has done much of the Millenium Trail in Oz pulling a trailer - we're talking thousands of kms on very rough ground - and has had absolutely no problems. Meanwhile his travelling companions were wearing out derailleurs/cassettes or breaking them. He's also competed in 7 day desert races and it still hasn't needed attention.
Personally I don't like them, and prefer an Alfine, but for reliability and gear range the Rohloff scores.
I looked at a Thorn Raven years ago, soon after I first heard of the Rohloff, it did look like the most economical way of buying one but if I remember correctly they were making out that the frame was worth £650. Obviously subsidising the Rohloff by (massively) over valuing the rather average frame.
epicyclo - Member
As far as the Rohloff hub is concerned, they are ideal for your intended use. My brother has done much of the Millennium Trail in Oz pulling a trailer - we're talking thousands of kms on very rough ground - and has had absolutely no problems. Meanwhile his traveling companions were wearing out derailleurs/cassettes or breaking them. He's also competed in 7 day desert races and it still hasn't needed attention.Personally I don't like them, and prefer an Alfine, but for reliability and gear range the Rohloff scores.
Thank you epicyclo it appears that some people cannot grasp that people have different needs TO THEMSELVES. As I have cycled the west coast of the US on an old bike I leave at my brothers, I may if I go again I may actually use my as yet non existing Rohloff bike. Although taking it there maybe a little too expensive. I would definatly consider an alfine with 11 gears "if they release ever it" for a spare bike assuming it reasonbly priced
Bimbler - Member
But if I remember correctly they were making out that the frame was worth £650. Obviously subsidizing the Rohloff by (massively) over valuing the rather average frame.
Now Bibler for this to be true they would have to be selling the frame with different gears at a lower price as they don't then your statement is untrue.........not the the bit about the frame being over priced that is obviously a matter of opinion but the bit about subsidizing this can only be true, as stated, if they sell the frame without the Rohloff cheaper??
trail_rat - Member
Yes the hub. Yes then add some mud ....Rear end clogs nicely with only that much clearance - I had a 1.9 in the rear and there still isn’t much room
The hub is good; the frame is definitely to a price
Hello again what bike/frame did you put the hub on? Were the drop outs a problem on the replacement bike? The drop outs on the silver frame looks like the Rohloff drop outs??
The Thorn you are showing is a mountain bike have you any idea what the clearance is on the tourers. I don't do a massive amount off road but have no choice at times so may need a decent amount of clearance at times. Thanks for your time JB
Now Bibler for this to be true they would have to be selling the frame with different gears at a lower price as they don't then your statement is untrue
*shrugs*, it's what they told me, I believe it was even in their sales literature from then
As far as the Alfine 11 is concerned, I wouldn't put my faith in it for long distance heavy touring until it had been proved.
I'm sure it will be excellent etc...
epicyclo - Member
As far as the Alfine 11 is concerned, I wouldn't put my faith in it for long distance heavy touring until it had been proved.I'm sure it will be excellent etc...
Very very good point but I may ignore you on this if the price is not to high IE £300? Hopeful? I know, but with time they will probably fall AND I think we maybe about to see a considerable increase in the availbitly of hub gears. I would even go as far as saying that in the future we may only find derailleur on Apollo’s and other cheapo bikes!! They will become the norm
As a dérailleur and hub user I'd say hub will NEVER become the norm on race orientated bikes (on and off road)- too much weight in a single place is not great for handling when on the edge of performance.
Hubs should dominate elsewhere though - commuting, touring, recreational cycling.
Rohloff - I'd go for one if I was going to do a Mark Beaumont or tug around a heavy trailer like you which does little for handling already. IMO alfine better for dynamic riding as there is white a weight difference.
Thorn - if hub bike do take off s you say I'd imagine they will be swept aside pretty quickly if their particular niche goes mainstream. Their website's clunkiness epitomises the companies general lack of keeping up with modern standards. The thorn frames I have handled left we very cold - really not impressed with standard of finish compared to other steel frames I've owned or played with. There are companies doing much better things with the same material and where they move in on Thorns USP they will come up short.
brandeberryj - Member
...AND I think we maybe about to see a considerable increase in the availbitly of hub gears. I would even go as far as saying that in the future we may only find derailleur on Apollo’s and other cheapo bikes!! They will become the norm
My name says it all 🙂
You forgot to mention belt drive as the natural corollary.
silver frame is a ragley TD-1
I have been waiting on some stans arches which came in to stock earlier this week are are on their way to me to finish the build !
In the future we use nano-mechs with a monomolecular chain, the cogs increase or decrease their diameters automagically to provide the correct ratios as demanded by direct brain to bike interface technology.
WRITTEN FROM MY TIME MACHINE
trail_rat - Member
Silver frame is a ragley TD-1
Can you tell me the site? Am I right in thinking that the frame is designed to take rohloff? The most important thing for me is the Rohloff or to be more precise a huge range of gears. As not only do I need it for trailer but surprisingly I have a big problem with standing up on a bike. Surprisingly (as cycling is zero impact) if I do it too often I get a huge amount of pain in my right knee. Now no doubt this is due to torn and ruptured a cruciate ligament which has also led to arthritis (not that it arthritis is ever a problem when sat down no matter how far I ride). Can you think of any other manufacturers whose frames have good rohloff drop outs? The latter is addressed to anyone on the forum. Thanks JB
I think it's ragley.co.uk
Frame not designed for rohloff - it's designed by brant but made by lynskey and has the same drop outs on it as ragleys frame so the ragley left hand rohloff drop out fits on
The td1 is a race orientated rigid only frame but If that doesn't suit look at lynskey and raglys other offering
I have 2 rear wheels for it one rohloff and one ss depending on mood .
Watch out for pictures at end of the week once I get the rear wheel built !
I have no opinion on a bike for life. I just wanted to quote this...
[i][b]brandeberryj - Member
What are you talking about you sad little man. I once hit a pothole which was not visible in a big puddle and I flew over the top of the handlebars just missing the back of a lorry on a busy dual carriage way. I assume that wouldn't have happened if I had front suspension. Where does it say I have a gay fantasy about superman....are you sure it isn’t one of your fantasies?[/b][/i]
... because it made me laugh 😆