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Who knows if extreme country is a thing (I might have been reading too many Tallboy reviews) but I guess in some respects it’s a good headline for what I’m looking for.
I’ve not really ridden a FS since busting my knee in a 2017 (mentally went off riding super techy/steep trails) and last year sold my Banshee Spitfire which had been gathering dust, instead spending my time on my Stanton Sherpa, which I absolutely love.
A 40+ mile mtb ride over Airedale, Calderdale and wider Pennines over the weekend is making me think there is room for the right FS in my life. Looking for something that compliments and extends the Sherpa, that can do big xc/trail-light days out in Northern England (Dales, NYM, Lakes, Peaks), Quantocks, North Wales, Scotland; but still be a laugh for an hour or two round Ilkley Moor. I only occasionally ride trail centres, generally keep my wheels on the ground (no interest in compulsory drops, doubles, gaps!). Must be able to climb well, be efficient and comfortable (like a steel HT - hahaha!) and not weigh a tonne! Budget up to £5000, and no motor required. Ideally 29er for the rolling ability, and 120-140 mm fork range.
Been taking a serious look a Santa Cruz Tallboy (I will go and get a demo at Stif). Some of the reviews that say it only really works for those who can ride really aggressively concern me - I can get down stuff (I’ve been only riding HT for years!) but I’m not aggressive! And the two people I do know with them have been former DH riders. Anyone riding a v4/v5 - how are you finding it?
What else does the STW hive mind recommend?
I was going to suggest a Tallboy in response to your post's title.
I've done loads of miles on my V4 and I'm just building up my new V5 (the V4 developed slight play in the top headset mount: SC replaced the frame with the latest model without quibble). I can comment on the V4 but have not yet ridden the V5. Tbf, I can't see it being much different, although the in-frame storage is nice to have.
The V4: Best full suspension bike I ever rode (typically longer Peak District stuff, although I've done several 2-day, 100 mile+ bikepacking missions on it). It's light enough, agile and stable. The rear feels like it has much more than 120mm of travel: firm yet plush (I know!). It climbs brilliantly and I descend faster on it than my longer travel bikes. The suspension bearings remained smooth, Internal tubes means cables are easy to change. It's ace 🙂
I did change the fork travel to 140mm as I wanted to run with more sag.
The only negative that I experienced was where the cables exit the front of the frame (Almost from the headtube). This makes for smooth cable angles, but a pain to mount a 'bar bag.
Can't wait to get my V5 built up. Just waiting for some of the new Reserve alloys to arrive 🙂
When I was looking for something similar, I did research the Tallboy, but based on reviews didn't go for it. Went a bit left field - Revel Rascal 140/130 climbs brilliantly, fab all round trail bike. Only issue really is 2.4 is about the most you can go in the back.
Think mine weighs about 30lb with 2.6/2.3 tyres. There's a demo down here (South Wales) which might not be ideal if you're close to Stif.
How do you feel about Orange? Because their Stage Evo might be exactly what you want.
I've had the Stage 4 for a few years (slacked out a bit) and it's fast, engaging, fun and on par with some carbon bikes for weight. I'd say it's perfect for someone who doesn't want to lose too much of the connection to the ground you get from a hardtail.
I'm just selling the Stage 4 frame actually, in case you're M/L sized and fancy trying a cheap build.
I've beefed mine up to a 160mm fork but I'm having A LOT of fun on my Canfield Tilt. Normally 130-140mm fork. Not sure about distributors in the UK but I didn't pay a huge amount to import my Tilt frame & CC Kitsuma Air shock: was maybe £2300 delivered. That would leave plenty for a Pike and some nice carbon wheels.
Have a look at the orbea occam, it is in the sweet spot of geometry IMO of being a trail bike that is capable descending, without being a short travel downhill bike.
I was going to suggest the occam. It's a brilliant all rounder and there's no disadvantage to having a bit of extra travel with 140mm both ends. It's very efficient when pedalling with the lockout on. And you'll get a much better spec for your money than a Santa Cruz if buying new.
/\ dont get an orbea occam, had nothing but trouble with it, :0) , great bike and climbs well, if only the back end didnt wobble all over a couple of rides after having new bearings fitted.
i demo'd a megatower and a tallboy at the last stif demo day, the tallboy felt great uphill, and very lively like my old mk2 5010. the megatower on the other hand was a bit meh. would be better for uplifts / alps. I wasnt keen
if you have the money the smaller Yeti FS would do the job, my friend rides the sb130 and its very capable.
if you have the money the smaller Yeti FS would do the job, my friend rides the sb130 and its very capable.
Even by Yeti’s (extremely) questionable reliability, the short travel one was even more unreliable than the others, which is quite the achievement.
The Tallboy, I think if it’s your one bike, it’s probably a good one, but lightweight, they are not. If you want something light & efficient, there are plenty of other bikes out there which don’t weigh as much as a trail bike & are just as capable.
If you’re stuck in the Talloy world, you might as well look at the Optic, Smuggler, Following, Spectral, etc - which are all short travel trail bikes.
If you want something a step lighter (yet just as capable, having ridden a few of the above): Epic Evo, Spur, Element, Top Fuel, new Spark, etc.
In the spirit of recommending what I own, Vitus? I've got an Escarpe CR which pedals better than any* 140/150mm travel 29er has any right to. So either a Mythique or an Escarpe and a £3500 holiday. Only downside is it's weight, it's not noticeable while riding weight, but it is ~34lb for the CR (Deore, Z2's, aluminium rear end).
I've never liked SC bikes, the VPP always felt like riding with a knackered shock so can't comment on the Tallboy.
*possibly no better than a lot of other modern bikes, but like you I had a 10 year gap between FS's during which I just had a handful of disappointing test rides.
I get the impression the OP is after a light & fast short-travel shred sled, rather than a 140mm bike like the Occam.
If you’re stuck in the Talloy world, you might as well look at the Optic, Smuggler, Following, Spectral, etc – which are all short travel trail bikes.
If you want something a step lighter (yet just as capable, having ridden a few of the above): Epic Evo, Spur, Element, Top Fuel, new Spark, etc.
e.g. the latter set of bikes here, to which I'd add an Orange obvs 😉
YT Izzo might be worth a look as well. It's 130mm travel but apparently very lively.
@whatyadoinsucka was that the Alu or carbon occam? The only issue I've had with maintenance on mine was removing the retaining ring on the NDS chainstay bearing which is a bit tricky but got there in the end. Oh and removing the linkage assembly required some serious force with a slide hammer. But all bearings changed fine and no play whatsoever.
Did you find where the play was coming from?
Most of the so-called 'Downcountry' bikes are very capable on rough ground. You might get pinged about a bit more than on something with a bit more squish, but I've ridden my Orbea Oiz in the Lakes with no real issue, and for its day-to-day job in the Dales, it's very light and climbs extremely well, plus has a lockout for the inevitable flat track/road sections.
Hi, What about Rocky Mountain Element ?...I've no experience with it specially, but it would be what i'd buy. I had a Swarf contour in a similar vain and it was really capable, the Element makes it lighter faster and the Geo looks spot on. I'd love one of these in the shed, they look like a hoot!
Thanks all. Lots of things to look at 🙂 To clarify I’m not looking for a xc race machine, or that said an enduro/LT trail rig (hence the 140 mm max fork travel). Something that is good to ride for 30-50 miles over the horizon (probably the odd bikepack-light) and is comfortable, efficient (like my HT!) and able to deal with whatever is down the next trail (where my HT runs out a bit; but I’m not afraid/ashamed to walk super tech!). The easier Lakeland/Scotland passes are at upper end of what I ride. This will be my only FS, and I’ll be definitely keeping the Sherpa (which has definitely proven to me what a 120 mm ‘downcountry’ bike is capable of!).
If you've got deep pockets a pivot trail 429 would fit the bill.
How about the non rc version of the spark. Very fast bikes.
If you wanted steel what about a Cotic Flare Max?
https://www.cotic.co.uk/product/flareMAX
But I'd standby my Rocky Element suggestion, 65° head angle its not an XC bike...and would be much more fun on longer rides I reckon.
Sounds like the sort of thing my Occam is used for, including the "backpacking-light" part. I used mine on the Cairngorms Loop, glad of the suspension as fatigue sets in, especially riding in the dark.
I did a full bearing change on it last Winter no problem
I bought an Izzo a few months ago and fitted a load of other parts like some Hunt XC Wides and a carbon bar. It's only mid level spec, but I'm very rapidly falling in love with it.
Have done a fair few short rides, and did an event in Wales with it at the weekend, with reasonably steep accents and a few slightly rocky downs. It was a blast. Really comfortable and stable, easy to pedal up, and a whole load of fun on the downs. Would recommend.
Hummm (work today is not going well - too much googling!). I like the look of the Izzo and Spur. The headtube angle on both is 1 degree slacker than my Sherpa. Obviously with the benefit of rear suspension, but I’m wondering if it means it is not bringing a lot of ‘benefit’ over what I’ve already got (duplication v extension!), whereas the Element and Tallboy are 2 degrees slacker (though I have just spotted the crazy short seat stays on the Tallboy (405 v 435 on my Sherpa which might be interesting on longer rides!)).
Sag will add on a good few degrees to your Sherpa. Not such a big thing on a full suss.
Not sure if Stanton give geo at sag point, this will steepen as you sit on it if not.
Regardless, on a hardtail the bike will steepen further as you compress the suspension down through its travel, a full suss wont; so they will ride differently, even with the same or similar head angle.
Transition Spur would be my suggestion.
Good points re sag - thanks
And regarding the Orange - good spec on paper, like the British thing, just really struggle to get excited by the look.
I keep looking at the Canyon Spectral 125 for this sort of thing.
Can't really justify a new bike, so.....meh, but reckon it would be a good option for a lot of UK riding.
Having had a Spur & now having got an Element (my other half decided she took a fancy to the Spur, so pinched it) I can say the Element is a weird/clever blend of the efficiency of the Spur (which isn’t outright XC race whippet, but not far from) when going up and the Tallboy on the way down. It’s slightly more muted, as it’s not a flex stay, so less pingy when its fast & rough.
I’ve had mine for coming up 6 months now, and its my most ridden bike, by far, which is good, as my Spur was my most ridden bike before. I’d go so far as to say if I was ever in a position to only have one bike, the Element would be it (with 2 sets of wheels).
It’s done 100km off-road rides from my doorstep, general trail riding, Welsh valley steeps & even a bit of enduro racing. As much as I hate the marketing guff of the bike world, for those of us who don’t want to be off road roadies, the new breed of downcountry bikes are brilliant 🙂
Get another Banshee.
The V3.2 Phantom would be perfect, or step up to a Prime.
Weight depends how you build it, but the KS2 suspension design works brilliantly.
As someone else mentioned, Canyon Spectral 125 is very good for this sort of riding. It is very good value and tends to be discounted more frequently than their longer travel version. I got the alu one 2 months ago and love it, was amazed how well it climbs despite being very heavy - the geometry is perfect. Carbon one would be even better. I thought I would still choose the XC bike for longer rides but am very happy to take the Spectral.
And regarding the Orange – good spec on paper, like the British thing, just really struggle to get excited by the look.
Fair dos, I love the look of them and the way they blend form & function - but I'm aware some people are just reminded of filing cabinets 😀
I went to the Canyon Demo day at the FoD at the weekend. I had my eye on a Spectral CF8, but I was most impressed with the Canyon Neuron CF 9, which fits the criteria of what the OP is looking for. Light and fast with good handling on the downhills. A bike you can ride all day in the hills or do bike park reds on.
It's a new frame spec for 2023 which has fixed the negatives of the past model and made it more modern geo. £3849 for full carbon frame and wheels and XT components and Fox dampers is pretty good money these days.
I was looking at replacing my Smuggler, availability and reliability were pretty high up on the list after having two shit experiences on two other bikes.
Had a short list:
-Spur, couldln’t buy one and was between sizes
-Izzo, wasn’t keen on the direct to consumer, didn’t want a full bike either
-Top Fuel, odd seat tube angle, always felt like I was too far back when seated
-Epic Evo, sitll a bit too xc for me
Ended up on a Stumpjumper Sworks, 26lbs on xc tyres. Pretty much the same geometry as my old xwing enduro. Really impressed with how it goes uphill and downhill. 1900miles on it so far in the year I've had it, zero issues and it flies along, even more so on silly low tread xc tyres.
On offer at spesh at the moment too: https://www.specializedconceptstore.co.uk/product/59522/2022-stumpjumper-expert/
I really want to try the new stumpy. Nearly bought one when they were selling those green sworks frames with a big discount. But instead I went the other way and bought a flaremax.
what kiwijohn said
if you liked your spitfire, get a phantom
i personally adore my spitfire
I'd be looking at a Carbon Wasp Truffle. 120mm of travel, modern geometry and hand made in Yorkshire.
Banshee Phantom gets excellent reviews and is currently discounted till June (£1.7k with headset, shock etc.)
That's what I would get.
I’d be looking at a Carbon Wasp Truffle.
Tempting as that is the sort of quirky off-piste option I’m normally here for! 😉
That follows a friend literally just messaging me saying the Specialized is nice but too mainstream for you 😂
Another Occam fan here, but this time the LT. A non-LT Occam (140mm) would have been awesome for my local limited tech Rooty forest trails but I bought the LT to complement my lack of technical skills should I take it somewhere more challenging - my inspiration for that more-travel-fatter-tyred weekend away was always Tracey's weekend photo's.
My LT is 150mm and despite that rides like a supportive trail bike. Without looking at the sag o-ring thingy sometimes I think my 100mm Spark is moving more than the Occam feels like it does. Great geo too, puts you forward for climbing making it even more capable for all day / trail rides.
Often on offer at Sigma sports & MTB Monster, in fact Sigma have offers now...
Sounds more like upduro than down country 😉
Loads of good suggestions on here. Spark is nice at the racier end. Love my canyon lux trail. But I think you want something a bit more beefy than either of those. The geometry might be ok but I wonder if they are build for the durability you'd want over the longer term.
Don't know what vitus offer in the 130-150 range. I've had their CX bikes and would look at their other offerings. Their trail bikes got good reviews.
Ibis Ripley? The Ripmo pedals so well I think I’d probably do a light build of one and have the travel when I wanted it, but the Ripley looks good.
I've had a Spur for the past year-and-a-half and it's not far off a race bike in terms of outright speed, but you can still throw it down anything short of sustained rocky chunder, big hits and 6ft drops just as fast as a trail bike with more travel. Fast, flowy, steepish trails and it's a total hoot. My local riding involves a lot of dirt road miles to get to anything resembling a trail so its nice to have something light and efficient. I've done a few 50+ milers and it does that well too, just not quite as efficient as a proper XC bike.
If I was riding less XC and more trails though I'd be looking at the Smuggler, RM Element Stumpy or Tallboy.
Another vote for the latest model Stumpy here, love mine. Suits all your requirements well I’d say.
Very very close to clicking buy on a Spur…
Common sense of do I really need it is kicking in… (boring)
As mentioned above, the new canyon neuron 2023 ticks your boxes and is excellent value. Brilliant all rounder, check out the mbr review.
I’ve lusted after various versions of the Scott Spark for years for exactly what you are looking at. I doubt I’ll ever afford one but the dream is always there.
Very very close to clicking buy on a Spur…
Common sense of do I really need it is kicking in… (boring)
I think you will be well-happy with either a Spur or a Tallboy. Get it bought... life is far too short 🙂
Spur ordered - good price on a Shimano/SID combo in that very nice sea green, which leaves change for an upgraded wheelset bringing it well under weight of the GX/Fox version which are currently £1.8k more!! Couldn’t see past the incredible reviews that summarised everything I wanted in a bike - the up and down package.
Tallboy seems a bit chunkier than my ideal (I did after all manage my way round Torridon on my Sherpa, but it could have been more enjoyable!) and I prefer a firm suspension under pedalling. Absolutely no Elements in my size. Izzo is nice but I could get the Spur with Shimano which I’ve always preferred. Cayons are incredible value, and Stumpy very impressive, but I am an awkward b*****r and always liked something a little less mainstream (yes, it’s an issue - I’ve always been the same). Cotic and Banshee, bike brands I’ve owned in the past, are just meatier frames than I wanted. Scott and Orange just don’t float my boat. Thank you so much for all the input as it has changed my mind and confirmed my choice.
Now, wheels…set of Alloy Reserve or Hunts XC wide? Will try and get them on cycle to work.
Get it bought… life is far too short 🙂
Exactly what went through my mind. We can spend the summer riding as you’ve no idea what’s round the corner (the big C has been a shitter to friends and family recently and bought this to the fore!).
Exactly what went through my mind. We can spend the summer riding as you’ve no idea what’s round the corner (the big C has been a shitter to friends and family recently and bought this to the fore!).
Exactly!
Here's me!
I do intend to start writing again... too busy riding now I've finished the chemo and RT.
New website on the way too 🙂
Oh, and...
The Reserves 🙂
I've got a set of the latest Trail Wides on my Mason Raw. Nice wheels but I don't think they'll last as long as the Reserves. I'm going to register my Reserves in the wife's name!
Sounds like a great choice for the riding you describe.
Post pics when it arrives.
Wheels: roval control carbon are worth a look if you want to add some lightweight zip.
Not sure I'd trust Hunt wheels on such a nice build. My personal experiences haven't been great with them.
I was looking for something similar recently and picked up a spectral 125 cf7 in the canyon trail sale for £2219.
I would say it fits the bill perfectly, slacker than an izzo and spur and just about anything in that category.
Fairly light, pedals and climbs fantastic, very comfy, I can see it been a real mile muncher with some faster tyres on.
I've swopped out the bar and stem to carbon and got my dt1501s to go on to lighten it up even more.
Pike select + fork with 2.1 damper, full Gx drivetrain, code rs brakes, dt 1900 wheels, 200mm dropper, ergon seat/grips what more do you need......plus save yourself a few grand !
There is no doubt at all the Cayons are very well spec’d for the money.
On the wheels, the new Roval Alloys look very good competition for the Reserve Alloy. About 200 g lighter for similar money. Roval Carbons likewise, as the Reserve are ££££ and so far I’ve never trashed a wheel to make it worth the extra for the crazy impressive warranty. Only problem is the Roval Alloys have absolutely no reviews as they only came out last month, and there are no carbons in the country (though couple of sites suggest they might come in, in mid June). The Roval Alloys are ~200g heavier (1649g) v 1450g for the carbon which are £430 more! That said both are significantly lighter than the stock wheels which I think are around 2.3kg! And lighter than the Pro4/Arch combo I have on my HT (I think are around 1850g!). Decisions decisions and also do I want wheels ready for as soon as the bike arrives…
I've had Rovals on two bikes - some Traversee that I bought for an S-Works Enduro self build and my Kenevo came with a set of Traverse.
Don't know what the difference is between Traversee and Traverse (the Traversee were bought many, many years ago). The ones on the Kenevo are obviously burlier and I have dinged them - the set I had for the Enduro were literally made of cheese though
roval control carbon are worth a look if you want to add some lightweight zip.
I had a set on my Enduro and swapped them for some XM471. Cracked the rear rim (I've never cracked a rim before) and couldn't for the life of me keep it laced tight and straight after I swapped the rim (warranty, thanks Spesh). Now I'll admit that I'm not the greatest wheel builder that ever there was, but eventually I was re-tensioning them after every ride. Not sure if it's the rim that's too stiff, or that they're only 28 spoke, but something's going wrong when I can kill a set of wheels.
I had a set on my Enduro and swapped them for some XM471. Cracked the rear rim
I've been running them on my Spur for over a year with no issues, but I must admit I'm not pushing them too hard.
A lightweigh XC race wheelset on an enduro bike is always going to be a compromise though.
A lightweigh XC race wheelset on an enduro bike is always going to be a compromise though
There are different specs of Roval Control, the Trail version comes as standard on Enduro bikes, and should be up to the sort of riding you can do on an Enduro.
The Geometron G1 is a totally ace all rounder and fits properly too. No more road based sizing. To be fair, since Chris Porter mainstreamed the geo with his G16 in 2015, a lot of manufacturers have jumped the bandwagon and gone the long slack low route. I totally recommend a testride.
You don’t want a motor but you may want to look at the Kenevo SL. Light support. Great geo. Lovely bike, even the comp and SO much reduced just now. Testride?? I didnt want a motor either but had no choice, spine injury. Healing slowly but nerve damage has compromised leg function one side.
SILT carbon are worth a look. I've just swapped out a pair of XM481 for a pair of their carbon xc wheels. So much lighter, pick up speed much easier. Nice if you live at the foot of the South downs and have a climb out every ride😃
Having a nice bike obviously doesn't exclude me from taking sh**e photos
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Great thread timing, just the type of bikes I’ve spent the last few days looking at. Congratulations on your new bike, please give us an update on your thoughts when you get out on it.
There are different specs of Roval Control, the Trail version comes as standard on Enduro bikes, and should be up to the sort of riding you can do on an Enduro.
Pretty sure it's the Roval Traverse series that's Speccy's trail / enduro wheelset nomenclature.
please give us an update on your thoughts when you get out on it.
Sure will. Also looks like I might be able get a ride on a friends Joplin (Tallboy) at some point, so will do a bit of a compare if I can.
Think the Roval Control Alloy will win. Just can’t justify the extra £450+ to save 200 g for carbon, plus little apprehensive about it feeling all too harsh. Also want to get them on cycle to work, which takes out the silt option. (And as someone whose job often revolves around silt and mud, I’m not sure I can ride round with silt decals 😂😂)
It arrived:
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Damn it is pretty. Brief 7-mile local shake-down ride last night and was impressed with the fit and geometry. Need to sort out the fork set up (had the same on my hardtail SIDs) and having not really ridden a FS for 5+ years it was a bit 'odd' initially, but can see it is just what I was looking for. Looking forward to a long ride over the weekend, and the wheel upgrade (and narrower handlebars) arriving.
That's lovely.🤘
As is tradition for a NBD post, the pointing on your 'wall' needs doing, and the weeding needs to be done!
That is a lovely looking bike, I think it's straight line from rear axle to steerer tube that does it. Congrats.
...and now I regret buying an Izzo. Again.
Chuffing Norah that's a pretty bike, nice one!
Sweet ride
Welcome to the Deep Sea Green club. Best looking bike in the business.
devash
Free Member
Welcome to the Deep Sea Green club. Best looking bike in the business.Posted 1 minute ago
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Agreed, still absolutely made up with mine one year on.
Enjoy @Ahsat its a beaut!
That is a lovely looking bike, I think it’s straight line from rear axle to steerer tube that does it
I think that is it - it just looks 'right'
Thanks all - bring on the weekend!
That looks ace! Like a full-sus version of my Yeti ARC (more so than the various Yeti full-sus's).
Would be interested to hear a comparison against the Joplin/Tallboy also.
Would be interested to hear a comparison against the Joplin/Tallboy
There's a fantastic comparison between the Spur and Tallboy here. This was one of the many reviews that swayed me towards the Spur for the riding I do.
Short answer - there's some overlap but really they're different bikes.
Best looking bike in the business.
It’s a looker for sure, in every way.
Once again the SIDs were pretty much devoid of oil. Had this now with both this OEM set and a direct sale fork. Don’t know how RockShox keep getting away with this. Anyway, as ever @p20 solved the issue, and hopefully they will feel a lot better on the weekends ride.
Annoyingly the wheels and handlebars are stuck in the weekend DHL holding bay in my local depo and won’t be here till Tuesday 😣
Those of you with Spurs, the Shimano deore version comes with a 160 mm rear rotor (v bizarre). Have people felt a need to put 180 on? As the Deore wears out it will get replaced with XT/Hope but it’s fine for now and kept the initial price manageable.
Those of you with Spurs, the Shimano deore version comes with a 160 mm rear rotor (v bizarre). Have people felt a need to put 180 on? As the Deore wears out it will get replaced with XT/Hope but it’s fine for now and kept the initial price manageable.
As far as I know all the V1 Spurs (Deep Sea Green / Raw Carbon) come with 160mm rotors on the rear.
The new 'Yeti turquoise' and raw carbon versions come with 180mm rear facilitated by an adapter (SRAM 20P).
I stuck a 180mm on the rear of mine and it does give you a noticeable increase in braking but I wouldn't say its an urgent upgrade.
I think it depends on the type of terrain you ride and use. I ran 180’s on my Spur, with Codes/G2 Ultimate levers & there were point I still found the 180’s were even a bit sketchy after a fast section into some sustained steep.
I run a 200/180 on the Element, and it’s more comfortable, but appreciate I might not be the average use case.
Never actually rode it with 160, I had an adapter and a spare 180 disc knocking about so put it straight on.