Is the logical conclusion that in a few years the bike industry will pivot to a new niche (see also: fixed gears, fat bikes, wheelie bikes), and people will carry on gravel riding but there won't be 100+ post threads about it 😉
The 'fashions' that people love to hate will still be there. You can still get most stuff that you used to be able to get, albeit in better modern form. Rigid MTBs, XC bikes, gravel bikes, fat bikes etc. This is a good thing.
A lot of it just comes down to personal preference and where you’re willing to compromise. I’m down to one bike and tried that as a gravel bike. For me it was bobbins and about as much fun as a colonoscopy YMMV. I’m now on a Stooge Dirtbomb. Yes it’s slower on the roads but I avoid them as much as humanly possible. Everywhere else, including mild bridleway, fireroad and canal towpath it’s approximately a thousand times more fun than the gravel bike ever was. That’s just for me though.
Before there was gravel, there was the 1989 Specialized Rock Combo which looked brilliant in green and white (I even have a set of bars from one) and the early 90s Diamond Back Overdrive with Suntour components and 29 inch Panaracer Smoke Tyres. Throw in Bruce Gordon Rock and Road's and gravel has been a thing long before it got the name. Ride one. Don’t ride one. It’s all good.
I interviewed Gary Fisher during lockdown and he reckoned we could even get gravel plus with rims bigger than 29. Colour me intrigued!
Cheers
Sanny
"better modern"
I question any assumption that these two words have to go together. In some cases theymost definately don't.
My favourite bike is my singlespeed MTB, but if I could only have one bike, it would be my gravel bike.
I've got plenty of gravel and good bridleways on the South Downs, it does multi-day rides, great for road night rides when you can't see the potholes, and crucially, I can mix it up and use quiet roads to connect an off-road route, or ride off-road to my destination and then come home on-road when I'm out of time. And...it's great at cutting through deep winter mud and not getting bogged down carrying 10kg of mud.
Skill.
Compensator.
😭
Damnit.. Gravel bikes are U* B** anyway.
They seem like the ideal commuter for lots of people when you take into account how terrible the road surfaces are now.
So my Spesh Stumpy HT from 2001 (still riding BTW).... is, now your saying is a Gravel Bike.
I've got a gravel bike and I'm special 😉
Ahead of the curve. Might get rid of the riser bars and get myself some Flat Gravel Bars ;).
Looking at that article above these gravel bikes are almost full circle back to late 80’s early 90’s mtb bar 29 wheels
So long as people are prepared to spend the money on ever increasing niche products then they will continue tk be developed
Fact is you see it here all the time. Person buys a gravel bike based on a utopian dream sold to them by marketeers. Except the UK doesn’t have much gravel so they end up using the dream machine on the road where it’s slow, or on a BW which is a bit rougher than a gravel road and they can’t cope with drops, or actually they are getting older and do t quite find drops comfortable, but they are still living the gravel dream and they have bought a gravel bike…..sort ofl
Well that’s cheery isn’t it
So I use to own an fs mtb and a 1990s mtb. The 1990s mtb died so i bought a gravel bike.
It cost less than many suspension forks
It now has 700c wheels with 35mm slicks and 650b wheels with 50mm tyres.
Riding from this house on it is really fun. There are loads of rides linking up off road sections. Loads of trails I can ride flat out on the gravel bike without being bounced around. The Eastern chilterns is great on a gravel bike and I can ride to there from here
Yes it’s very like my 1990s mtb but it has lower gears, more comfort, better brakes and is more upright. I just love being off road on drops.
I love my MTB but almost everything that makes it work is an hours pedalling from home, on trails and roads that are generally better on a gravel bike
I think if it was all marketing the novelty would have worn off by now.
Gravel bikes can be N+1 or N-1
Phew, amazing ride today has given me faith again.
Great combo of very minor tarmac farm roads and a whole variety of gravel surfaces and some singletrack.
I was reassured that the gravel bike was the best choice by, amongst other things, the handling in tight (smooth...) singletrack when sliding the almost slick rear tyre around muddy bits, but also when death gripping fast loose gravel descents and scrabbling for grip around loose corners. Not only did I PB a couple of sections I had also ridden on the MTB, but I was also having a huge amount of fun on the drop bars, knee out, trying to hit apexes on fast loose gravelly corners. Even if the MTB might have been faster on average on the rough bits I know I wouldn't have had anywhere near as much fun.
So yeah, logical conclusion to the trend is that through a surfeit of choice, people will be able to find the precise balance of speed, handling, efficiency etc. etc. that they enjoy most.
I also absolutely love how a tight CX frame looks when you shoehorn 'fat' smooth 40mm tyres in there and tiny jewel like blue anodised mini Vs that barely clear the tyres, just looks fast even standing still 😎
I love my MTB but almost everything that makes it work is an hours pedalling from home, on trails and roads that are generally better on a gravel bike
Exactly the same reason for me! I’ve retired the HT (for now at least) but am keeping the FS for when I do want to do rougher stuff.
For round the doors I’ve got a flat barred gravel/rigid/29 er & an actual gravel bike.
The Fee Ranger is a lot faster than the Sirrus, which I put down to weight & material (it being carbon) but the Sirrus is more capable on techy stuff, which I put down to it having flat bars. Dunno if I’ll ever get on properly with drops, I sold a road bike because I didn’t get on with them.
Raleigh Pioneer
I’ve just put gravel tyres on my early ‘90s Pioneer you know.
Not sure 8Sp XT triggers and a 680mm Monkeybar are on gravel trend though.
So long as people are prepared to spend the money on ever increasing niche products then they will continue tk be developed
Gravel bikes are literally the opposite of a niche, because they do multiple types of riding fairly well.
Look. Back in the day you had MTBs, they were all made the same even though we were doing really different kinds of riding. The kids scaring themselves on technical stuff were riding the same bikes as the old outdoorsy types getting out into the hills. So bike design evolved and manufacturers found stuff that worked better for different kinds of riding, which is how we got here. Are you trying to say this is a bad thing?
Fact is you see it here all the time. Person buys a gravel bike based on a utopian dream sold to them by marketeers. Except the UK doesn’t have much gravel so they end up using the dream machine on the road where it’s slow, or on a BW which is a bit rougher than a gravel road and they can’t cope with drops, or actually they are getting older and do t quite find drops comfortable, but they are still living the gravel dream and they have bought a gravel bike…..sort ofl
Well I suppose that's one spin you could put in it, I've been using a drop barred gravel bike for 6 years or so, it's superseded my previous need to own a HT MTB, and it's still one of My favourite bikes ever. I'm sure other people's experiences haven't been quite so positive but I'd say just as many have been really positive. As ever I think it's down to expectations Vs reality. As a type of riding "gravel" is far more accessible to the noob or returning fat Dad than the (seemingly) over competitive, spend focussed world's of MTBing and/or "serious" road cycling. It's just trundling about where you like exploring on a bike, a bit like MTBing used to be.
I’m not saying that gravel bikes are just 90s MTBs, but gravel riding is just 90s MTBing.
A beautifully succinct way of putting it, almost a T-shirt worthy slogan even.
Coming back to the OP's question, where Gravel bikes/cycling are headed, and considering both a cost of living crisis on the horizon and that other recent thread where people believe they're being "priced out of bikes" I actually think the near future for gravel bikes is probably going to be focussed more on the affordable end of the spectrum.
Never mind your daft carbon things with Di2 and a dropper, for a punter looking to squash their car juice spending, get to work and maybe do some on/off-road exploring of a weekend a sensible cheap Gravel bike will seem
almost ideal.
Something with Sora, mechanical brakes and a bit more cush from the Tyres for £6-800 will need little in the way of spares and maintenance for several years and so is going to appeal to the budget/C2W scheme more than an £8k fluro, #Enduro/EEB thief magnet with forks/shocks/motors that need servicing every other month*.
It's a boring answer but in the context of the UK in 2022, cheap, basic Gravel bikes probably have more going for them than most MTBs right now... If you were running SBC/Trek/Giant/etc you'd be wise to get sharpening up your value gravel offerings right now I reckon.
*(Slight exaggeration)
Wheres the logical conclusion to the gravel trend?
a bit like MTBing used to be.
I keep saying this but it really really wasn't all like that, just like it isn't now.
Why do you think so much development was put into full suspension MTBs for so long? Because people wanted to go as fast as possible on rough technical ground.
Do an image search for MBUK front covers from the 90s, very few of the riders in the pictures have their wheels on the ground!
I’m not saying that gravel bikes are just 90s MTBs, but gravel riding is just
faster 80s ATBingfaster vintage cycling with better brakes.
(OK so it doesn’t scan as well but…)
Watch from 16 min:
Development was well under way in the 90's. Go back to the 80's (when I got my first MTB) and they were all pretty much the same and used for everything (I even bike packed mine around France for 2 weeks).
Was the same for BMX in late 70's, we used the same bike for racing, street, flatland etc,. and we had great fun doing so
Does anyone know if more dirt riders are buying gravel bikes or roadies?
I’m not saying that gravel bikes are 90’s MTBs but gravel riding is just 90’s
MTBXC
FTFY
I’m not saying that gravel is rough stuff, but gravel riding is RSF for ITF
I actually think the near future for gravel bikes is probably going to be focussed more on the affordable end of the spectrum.
Gravel bikes are the hot fashion item at the minute. They're going to be wrung for every penny they can before the sun sets on this and something else more fashionable comes along. (see singlespeeding, fat bikes, etc etc). There may very well be cheaper models coming to market, but most of them won't be.
I'm really not sure what you're saying.
Is it that the 90s wasn't all rattling about on rigid,narrow barred MTBs? - Well of course not, but I do remember doing that for at least some of that period and actually enjoying it.
Or are you saying that Gravel bikes suck because they're not using the lessons of 30 years of MTB suspension development? in which case fine, I mean you can still buy MTBs which do if that's more your thing...
I'm also not sure MBUK covers were ever a true reflection of real life either. The basic cover shot rules, whether wheels were on or off ground, seemed to be tilt the camera to make stuff look steeper, shoot from bellow, put some sky behind the subject if possible to make it look like they're up higher, try to use shots with as little facial expression as possible... They were always trying to massage real life a bit
Anyway if your nostalgia is accurate, you're definitely doing it wrong.
So, I’m not saying that gravel bikes are just 90s MTBs, but gravel riding is just 90s MTBing.
I have no idea why people think we just rode gentle bridleways and tracks in the 90s.
I didn't say they were.
I said a colleague's gravel ride used exactly the same tracks as we rode on in the 90s.
One of them was the one that we liked because it felt just like the Kamikaze track JMC rode wearing his Hardisty Cycles kit.
My "gravel" bike is exactly the same as my cx race bike, apart from a slightly longer TT and longer chainstays and discs.
It gets ridden on exactly the same South Downs stuff that we've been riding our cx bikes on for the last 20 odd years. Albeit a bit more capably (especially with those 47mm Senderos).
Now that I now longer have a proper road bike it's also brilliant with a wheel/tyre swap on the road. Just not quite as quick, but then nor am I.
Not sure what the logical conclusion is.
They'll morp into mountain bikes- I think this happened once before!
I love this thread , a throwback to 2015 before Brexit,covid and war,when arguing about bikes was the most important things in our lives.
Anyway, are 650b gravel bikes rubbish or what?
are 650b gravel bikes rubbish or what?
Yup probably total shite...
Gravel bikes are the hot fashion item at the minute. They’re going to be wrung for every penny they can before the sun sets on this and something else more fashionable comes along. (see singlespeeding, fat bikes, etc etc).
You're implying they are a niche or fad, or a different type of bike used for the same riding.
But they've actually formalised and marketed a new category of cycling, which yes Kerley will come along and say "but I've been doing it for years", while missing the point that it's now "a thing" which has been packaged and presented to the outside world - and which seems to be really appealing for various reasons.
But they’ve actually formalised and marketed a new category of cycling
Yes, I think that's largely true, I was being a wee bit tongue in cheek earlier.
and which seems to be really appealing for various reasons.
You can see the appeal, roadies get to explore a bit offroad on bike that familiar, MTBers get to have something that doesn't weigh the equivalent of a small moon, and has way to much suspension for 99% of the riding available in the UK. It's probably the bike most of us should be riding. Which makes it even weirder that I wouldn't have one if you paid me...
Gravel bikes are the hot fashion item at the minute. They’re going to be wrung for every penny they can before the sun sets on this and something else more fashionable comes along. (see singlespeeding, fat bikes, etc etc). There may very well be cheaper models coming to market, but most of them won’t be.
Yeah, I do think we're at 'peak' gravel with quite a few zany ideas out there, £1000, 40mm travel forks etc. etc. I think the 'sun setting' might just mean everything settles down a wee bit. Except prices, obviously 🙄
“but I’ve been doing it for years”
Yeah, I don't buy the 'I've been doing it for years' chat either. I mean, I've been doing it for years, but I'm a bike geek with a garage full of spare parts and too much time on his hands so could afford to experiment and find out what works.
But for Joe Bloggs it is probably massively helpful to have a marketing team tell him 'it is actually fine to ride drop bars off road' or 'you are allowed to ride off-road without having to shred the gnar everywhere'. Similarly by creating the new term, people will go out and develop routes specifically for gravel riders, which I used to think was daft because I like planning my own routes, but I've seen with my own eyes how much more casual riders appreciate a formal, recognised route. See e.g. the popularity of 'Gravelfoyle', because it's a nice, safe established route that a less experienced rider can go enjoy without having to worry about any unexpected hike-a-bike or extra chunky grubble for them to come a cropper on. Nobody would have developed or promoted a route like Gravelfoyle for MTBers.
The Fee Ranger is a lot faster than the Sirrus, which I put down to weight & material (it being carbon) but the Sirrus is more capable on techy stuff, which I put down to it having flat bars. Dunno if I’ll ever get on properly with drops, I sold a road bike because I didn’t get on with them.
Wife and I have just bought a pair of Free Rangers for a bit of off road fun....
Wife and I have just bought a pair of Free Rangers for a bit of off road fun….
That sounds like a euphemism.....
It's probably been said on this thread already, but a drop bar gravel bike is what probably what 50% of road bike buyers *actually* need. Lower gears, mudguard clearance, not particularly head down/arse up, disc brakes, rack mounts. Those buying 23/25mm tyres, massive gears etc. It really isn't needed for what a lot of people (outside of road clubs/chaingangs/racing) actually do. And in a lot of cases, they're really not pleasant to ride.
Similar with a straight bar gravel bike, a HUGE chunk of mountain bikers would probably be better off on a (relatively) skinny tyred, rigid (or slightly bouncy) bike. Because they don't need (or even make use) of massive tyres, 100+mm of suspension (at both ends), massively overspecced brakes and so on.
On the flip side, it keeps a lot of shops in business selling and then looking after these bikes.
The logical conclusion is that there isn't one. It's all completely illogical and keeps the money in circulation.
Those buying 23/25mm tyres, massive gears etc. It really isn’t needed for what a lot of people (outside of road clubs/chaingangs/racing) actually do. And in a lot of cases, they’re really not pleasant to ride.
I'm not being an argumentative prick (honest), but most mid-range and high-end road bikes now come with comfy 28mm tyres and compact gearing is commonplace. Making them much more pleasant to ride than five years ago.
I wouldn't give up the sharp handling of my roadie for a relaxed gravel bike, but I'll possibly have a gravel bike as well one day.
I’m not being an argumentative prick (honest), but most mid-range and high-end road bikes now come with comfy 28mm tyres and compact gearing is commonplace. Making them much more pleasant to ride than five years ago.
Oh, i absolutely agree, i think a lot of that is a combination of the influence of the gravel scene and a better understanding of what actually makes bikes fast AND and understanding of that by the customers (and those selling bikes). And rather than most, i'd say "many".
People who still think narrow tyres pumped up rock hard, slammed bars and massive gears are the way to go for ultimate speed in the real world for real people are finally a dying breed.
But, on the flip side there are still a good number of cyclists, who only want to do their clubs medium pace saturday ride turning up on brand new Di2 equipped cervelos that wouldn't look out of place on the pro-tour though. They'd be just as fast, and more comfy on an endurance geo bike with 28s, plus they'd have more cash for cake.
Oh very much that ^^ - the number of people buying pure road bikes who'd be far better off on some sort of "gravel-lite" bike is incredible.
Pure road bikes are great in Spain or France where there's acres of smooth tarmac, considerate drivers and LONG climbs and descents. In the UK where there's more pothole than tarmac and where the overarching aim is to get as far away from the traffic as possible, something that loses 10% of the speed but adds 50% extra rough stuff capability would be perfect.
I bought my 1st GT Grade back in 2015 solely to use as a disc braked road bike as there weren't many other options at the time. To be fair the original Grade is little more than that anyhow. I'm heavy and brake heavy and I was constantly blowing tubes on Pyranesse descents. Which was my main use of a road bike at the time. The only problem with it was that one descent of the Col de Tourmalet and I had to wind in the pads on the Spires.
I then bought a sora specced one in the sale stripped it and upgraded it to a good spec, I used that as my main road bike for years it was perfect for me and reverted the other one to gravel and winter road bike. I agree relaxed geometry, discs, and wide tires that you can use on shitty roads and tracks would be best for most folk.
I've just swapped from my winter road bike (Specialized Diverge) which is actually a gravel bike design to my summer road bike (Orbea Orca) and what a difference: I've gone from riding a sofa to been thrown around by the smallest perturbations in road surface! Will probably feel perfectly normal in a few weeks but right now it's quite a brutal ride. Also notice by lower back and glutes are much more stretched out on it (lower and longer position). Pretty sure it felt quite comfortable last year before I put it away for winter.....
And another thing...
Bikepacking is becoming almost synonymous with gravel biking, whereas it was once the preserve of MTBs. I'd say that the most common question I get about the Cairngorms Loop route/event is whether or not it can be done on a gravel bike.
the logical conclusion is that the bike industry will continue to commercialise the 'gravel sector' until they have sucked out all the fun and squeezed out every dollar.
in all honesty though of all the mountain/off-road bikes ive owned over the last twenty years or so my gravel bike is my favourite. its a shame that most of them are designed by roadies only looking to take them on canal towpaths and logging roads but there are some really capable ones out there that are lots of fun.
Evil bike industry making bikes for riding around on. How very dare they. Gravel bikes are the bikes most people need if they want to just ride from their door to anywhere their fitness allows them.
It’s a boring answer but in the context of the UK in 2022, cheap, basic Gravel bikes probably have more going for them than most MTBs right now…
Most uk post codes must have a ride that makes sense on a gravel bike the door. Now some might prefer do the same ride on a hard tail. CX bike, touring bike or endurance road bike but that doesn't really undermine my point. Whatever the bike your not burning fuel to get to the ride
But, on the flip side there are still a good number of cyclists, who only want to do their clubs medium pace saturday ride turning up on brand new Di2 equipped cervelos that wouldn’t look out of place on the pro-tour though. They’d be just as fast, and more comfy on an endurance geo bike with 28s, plus they’d have more cash for cake
A few bikes back i saw a guy on the full Sky team spec' Pinarello Dogma. He was older than me, heavier than me and less fit than me sat grinding up a minimal gradient having run out of gears...
Surely road bikes have more spent on marketing than all other types of bikes combined?
I ordered my Bokeh in November 2016 as it suited what I wanted from a bike - drop bar, discs, clearance for ~2"/ 650b Tues but also the ability to use 700c.
I've used it with both for day rides, for road touring, for gravel touring etc etc.
Surely road bikes have more spent on marketing than all other types of bikes combined?
Do you count pro sponsorships as marketing?
I believe gravel bikes are outselling road bikes now, but I defer to any actual bike trade persons who may have actual facts.
Do you count pro sponsorships as marketing?
That was my thinking. I'm thinking grand tours etc.
Evil bike industry making bikes for riding around on. How very dare they.
Probably a bit of push back against all those years they've spent dividing and subdividing "just riding around" and made it so difficult to find a bike for doing it!
Difficult, how? Selling mountain bikes has always meant selling many categories of bike... back to the days of selling XC race bikes, downhill bikes, trials bikes, back country bikes... etc. Selling road bikes has always meant selling many categories of bike... crit bikes, tourers, hybrids, commuters, time trail bikes, cross bikes... etc. People have different needs and different requirements. Categories change, for sure, and some of it is fashion and marketing, but it has never been the case that the bike industry made just one bike and said... "that'll do ya, take it or leave it". The variety is there for riders to pick from. The variety changes. Bike brands making bikes you don't want/need has always been the case, but there has never been a time when you "can't find" a bike to ride and enjoy.
but it has never been the case that the bike industry made just one bike and said… “that’ll do ya, take it or leave it”
Nope, they've made 47 different categories of bike and told you "there's 47 different categories of bike, now choose just one for arsing about on with no rhyme or reason".
Now they've reinvented what we had 30-40 years ago, which was a bike for just arsing about on.
Except it's got modern geo, modern gears, modern materials, modern brakes.
Extensively marketing driven, but still, they are sufficiently flexible that they could fit into multiple niches, and fill them well.
Yes, many different categories for many different riders. I don't need/want 160mm of rear travel, or aero bars, or rack mounts... other people do. The also want to be able to buy a bike for their needs/wants... not every bike is built for me. Why would that upset anyone?
[ Oh, I REALLY like modern brakes, the past isn't always rosey ]
Gravel bikes are the hot fashion item at the minute.
Well more like "hot fashion" for the last 7 or 8 years, they're kinda feeling a bit more established than a passing fad (IMO). You're right to the extent that yes the changes in fashions and cycling norms will inevitably mean a bit of ebb and flow in their popularity, but by the same token I remember confidently stating a decade ago I couldn't be without a HT MTB as it was the one bike that covered the most bases. I now no longer have a HT MTB because I have a Gravel bike and that covers the most bases. I think there is more to Gravel bikes than just fashion and marketing hype. They've already outlasted the Fat bike Fad 😉
I wouldn’t give up the sharp handling of my roadie for a relaxed gravel bike, but I’ll possibly have a gravel bike as well one day.
I sort of know what you mean, I've often considered if "Gravel/All-road" bikes and Road bikes will/should converge as a single machine, I think for some people they find of already have. it was sunny last week and I went out on the road bike for the first time in a while and it felt awesome, tight as a drum, fast and responsive compared to my other bikes (Inc the gravel bike) I don't think a gravel bike would quite replace my Road bike today, but I can see the lines between "Sportive" "touring" and "Gravel" bikes becoming usefully blurred for some people.
Surely road bikes have more spent on marketing than all other types of bikes combined?
Without a doubt, but it's probably fair to expect some of that to rub off on Gravel bikes now too as the bars are curly also 😉
I don’t think a gravel bike would quite replace my Road bike today, but I can see the lines between “Sportive” “touring” and “Gravel” bikes becoming usefully blurred for some people.
Yeah, there's some filter back the other way too from gravel to road - wider tyres (with tubeless options), disc brakes and (whisper it), a dropper seatpost used last weekend in a pro race.
I'm not sure the two will ever meet in the middle, I think if they did it'd be back to a pure CX race machine, fine for an hour round a muddy field but lacking everywhere else. Currently, I think the absolute divide is chainrings - double for road and single for gravel.
I believe gravel bikes are outselling road bikes now, but I defer to any actual bike trade persons who may have actual facts.
I don't think they are but I may be wrong as I've been out of the good data for a year or more. Faster growing yes, at the expense of fairly flat road bike sales, but I think it's still a smaller category overall.
Currently, I think the absolute divide is chainrings – double for road and single for gravel.
And then they'll ask about ratios as their 1X is too gappy for road use and not enough range for off-road and bikepacking...
1x for MTB but 2x for drop bars imo, literally goes with the terrain. 1x sells but in use, for me, it fails. But there is another thread for all this so I apologise (you started it).
I think I'm right in saying that you designed the Genesis Croix De Fer then moved over to Evans and created the Arkose?
This pretty much puts you at the start of what we now call gravel
If this is true to what extent did you feel you were making bikes that people wanted verses using marketing to wip up demand for bikes that know one really wanted
Tong firmly in cheek here but interested in your perspective
I've got a 105 2x10 specced road bike with 23mm tyres and an 1x11 HT mtb.
I'm tempted by a gravel bike just for comfort, I seem to spend too much time concentrating on avoiding potholes and cracks on the road bike.
This pretty much puts you at the start of what we now call gravel
Dunno, when was the Kaffenback released? or for that matter the Pompetamine? were On One/PX ahead of the curve?
Those were what late 2000s? Disc braked, drop barred bikes (admittedly with a bit less tyre clearance) certainly no CX bikes, intended for mixed on/off-road riding...
hold on did we actually invent the Gravel bike in the UK, before the Yanks went and re-badged it and sold it back to us?
Salsa released the 'Vaya' in ~2010ish(?) had they just borrowed the idea from the Brits?
You could argue that touring bikes started it all off
"Rough Stuff Fellowship" trips using tourers on silly roads/tracks/terrain
yeah quite possibly, i started rough stuffing in the early/mid 80s. I recall one event up on the north yorks moors was on some sort of anniversary, 30th or 40th consecutive running or something.
Dunno, when was the Kaffenback released? or for that matter the Pompetamine? were On One/PX ahead of the curve?
Those were what late 2000s? Disc braked, drop barred bikes (admittedly with a bit less tyre clearance) certainly no CX bikes, intended for mixed on/off-road riding…hold on did we actually invent the Gravel bike in the UK, before the Yanks went and re-badged it and sold it back to us?
Salsa released the ‘Vaya’ in ~2010ish(?) had they just borrowed the idea from the Brits?
I bought my Kona Sutra in 2005. Gravel bikes hadn't been invented but there was a thing called MonsterCross which is basically what we see today.
Not a niche I follow in detail, but I'm not aware of other frames capable of 2.35" tyres besides the Salsa Cutthroat that has been around for several years. Pushing the typical clearance has slowly increased to approx 700*43, but one or two offer a bit more like the Free Ranger's 700*50...
The frameset of which is in their March Madness sale for £400 with some other frame deals, might be a good time to buy and build up a big tyre 2x drivetrain.
(admittedly with a bit less tyre clearance)
Or with plenty of tyre clearance. Singular springs to mind.
I have a Freeranger and on 650b wheels I can get a 2.4" Michelin in. It looks very very wrong but it's fun. Until you need to do any distance on the road.
You could argue that touring bikes started it all off“Rough Stuff Fellowship” trips using tourers on silly roads/tracks/terrain
Could potentially argue it the other way round as well, roadies doing CX over winter using what were (at the time) a crossover between touring bikes and road bikes. I'd say though that "gravel" as marketed today, has roots in CX, touring and 80's/90's MTB. Put those three disciplines into a Venn Diagram and "gravel" will be somewhere in the middle.
Holy Kona Batman!
How much seat post?
I’m not sure the two will ever meet in the middle, I think if they did it’d be back to a pure CX race machine, fine for an hour round a muddy field but lacking everywhere else.
As my only bike is a CX bike I would agree that they do sort of meet on the middle and the difference between road and CX are small and CX and gravel are small.
I don't however agree that it is only good for an hour round a muddy field and I can ride it on road (where it feels pretty much like the road frame that it replaced) or off road where it feels pretty much like a gravel bike.
To me the only really noticeable difference is the tyre choice. I initially had 28c tubeless road tyres on the CX bike as just swapped everything over and it just felt so similar to the road bike as the fit was the same. Put on off bigger road tyres and it feels like a different bike, to me not in a good way.
That is why I settle for something in the middle with a 33c CX tubeless tyre. Still pretty light, still rolls well and still feels more like slightly heavier road tyre than lighter off road tyre.
Holy Kona Batman!
How much seat post?
Stock picture, not mine - but I do have a 90's Kona with almost as much seatpost
About the difference between a gravel bike and a CX, I don't think geometry comes into it much. It's all about the tyres, and to a lesser extent gears and brakes.
In the past whenever I took my race cyclocross on hilly terrain and fireroads I never enjoyed it - gearing too high, brakes and tyres not confidence inspiring on descents. Now my latest CX is a proper race bike (MVDP's Canyon Inflite) but with hydraulic discs and 40mm tubeless tyres fitted, it's a hoot on 'gravel' routes away from traffic. It's more fun if you remember its limitations and don't attempt trails more suited to the MTB. Horses for courses literally.
Incidentally, most people I see on gravel bikes seem to be roadies who are maybe uninterested, unaware of, or intimidated by technical trails MTB's are suitable for.
My gravel bike is also a CX frame with 40mm tyres shoehorned into it.
I've joked about it in the past, but I wonder if it is something about the geometry which makes it so bloody difficult to 'take it easy' on the bike. It just wants to smash* everywhere!
The new 853 build will be an interesting experiment, bit longer, lower BB, space for bigger tyres. Will feel like a limousine in comparison!
*relative term, as in on the drops and pushing hard. Would look like a bimble to anyone reasonably fit 🙄
Not a niche I follow in detail, but I’m not aware of other frames capable of 2.35″ tyres besides the Salsa Cutthroat that has been around for several years. Pushing the typical clearance has slowly increased to approx 700*43, but one or two offer a bit more like the Free Ranger’s 700*50…
There are loads. Things like the Fargo have been going out for years.
a bike for just arsing about on.
Arsing about has a wide range of definitions...
Arsing about, drop bars and straight toptubes don’t mix in my version of arsing about. That Evil Gravel bike is the only one that doesn’t look like a road bike to me.
@ampthill Bikes people wanted vs using marketing to whip up demand (ha) - neither tbh, more a case of liking the format personally and having the creative freedom at Genesis to do it and see if there was interest. I wanted a different sort of road / all-road bike and Shimano road disc calipers appeared. Madison had a spring dealer show where I had a sample to show. It was pitched as not for CX racing, less than half of the people who saw it thought it was useful for something and more than half thought it was daft because it wasn't much good as a road or CX bike.
I didn't ride gravel on it, was all lanes and muddy byways at first, a road/CX mix. We did say something about drop bars not always meaning tarmac in the catalogue but gravel wasn't mentioned, it was all chalk tracks and dirt. 'UK Gravel' eh.
hold on did we actually invent the Gravel bike in the UK, before the Yanks went and re-badged it and sold it back to us?
The French did it all in the 60s, Jobst Brandt was gravel riding on road bikes way back, Brent Steelman, Hahn Rossman and others were making what we'd all see as gravel bikes before any UK brand I know of. It was all quite niche over there until maybe 2012-2015 ish though. I think GT were the first big US brand to make something they called a 'gravel bike' in 2014 or 2015.
I’d say though that “gravel” as marketed today, has roots in CX, touring and 80’s/90’s MTB.
My impression is it started with touring/CX (as it happens I have a Croix de fer as a sort of compromise between wanting something for some road miles/commuting but also a bit of easy offroad) but has moved to something closer to the old MTBs in terms of tire size and thinking about suspension but retaining the drop bars.
I’d say though that “gravel” as marketed today, has roots in CX, touring and 80’s/90’s MTB.
Hang on. There's multiple things going on here.
In the US, they made gravel bikes as road bikes with slightly bigger tyres because they have lots of what they call 'graded' roads which are like fire roads, but wider and serve as actual public roads. Those came from road bikes, no question.
They then were sold over here, but we wanted to ride them on bridleways and mountain tracks and the like, for which their still relatively skinny tyres weren't quite enough. So now we have gravel bikes with fatter tyres still - 47c or so - and that niche doesn't have a formal name. People say monstercross or adventure bike or still just gravel. But then people are taking them down singletrack which you might've done on a cross bike or an old MTB, but it's definitely not what the original US bikes were designed for.
So er, yeah. Now we can buy bikes from an almost continuous spectrum of different styles and applications, and the niche categories are being eroded. Now we have XC MTBs that are longer travel and slacker angled, and even longer travel/slacker is now downcountry, and now there is a continuum between CX, gravel, monsterwhatever. We can now buy a bike tailored to our needs.
If we get too bogged down in the details though we might be in the rather strange position of 'needing' to change bikes if we move to a different part of the country!
Bikes people wanted vs using marketing to whip up demand (ha) – neither tbh, more a case of liking the format personally and having the creative freedom at Genesis to do it and see if there was interest.
Were you responsible for the original Day One? Skinny steel, orange paint, singlespeed, rim brakes, lovely. I pimped mine up a bit then promptly sold as I needed the money during my student days, definitely the bike I regret selling the most.
My first gravel bike also, Markus Stitz and I did some slightly weird and wonderful loops over Rannoch Moor and through Glen Coe etc.
I don't understand this discussion at all. Surely the logical outcome of gravel bike development is to tarmac all the gravel, and use a decent road bike, no?
