[Closed] Where the **** am I going wrong with tubeless?

Sort of agree in many ways....

Solution for me has been to use tougher tyres, but paying extra for lighter models, e.g. most in the Schwalbe SuperGravity range (Magic Mary, Hans Dampf). You don't need to run them quite as low as regular DH/Enduro tyres to achieve the same suppleness and traction - net result is no snake-bites within the last 2 years of thrashing.

Hmmmm, pretty poor rant tbh.

Your punctuation is there, spelling too and no random caps.

As for content, I'm unable to share but do empathise.

What pressures are your tyres? Sounds like they're a little on the soft side?

There's no mystery to it, if you're snake biting your tubeless tyres then you are either not running enough pressure, running tyres that are too fragile/light for your riding, or both.

You mentioned that when you were running tubes you didn't ruin as many tyres, well yes, cos you had the extra rubber of a tube in there, add that same rubber to your tubeless sidewall instead! Sure, you then won't have a weight advantage but you will still have a puncture advantage.

Tubeless gets you lighter weight, more grip and puncture resistance, but not necessarily all at once, it's a case of shifting the balance of factors to get what you want. If you're dead lucky you get a bit of all three, but most opt for a lot of one or two factors at the expense if the other(s), it sounds like you just need to work out where your priorities are and setup for that.

There's no mystery to it, if your snake biting your tubeless tyres there you are other not running enough pressure, running tyres that are too fragile/lught for your riding, or both.

+1, and buy an AirShot.

My experience is the complete opposite - 10,000Km of riding with just one puncture from something big like a 6" nail that was fixed with an anchovy. 1000Km on the fat bike with one puncture that self sealed and I just needed to pump the tyre back up.

I find the best most reliable way to make it work is by using vulcanised rubber insert, like procore but larger volume.

You can pick them up for a few quid in Halfords, removes the need for sealant and in the unlikely event they fail, you can’t simply fit a new one without the need to piss about with more glue or a 5000Psi pump takes seconds, doesn’t react with Co2 either.

^ get that patented

I use CO2 to inflate tubeless in seconds every time, have done for ten years. No idea what the problem with doing this is meant to be. Except the cost of cartridges but I only use a few a year since going 29.

Less faff than tubes and the lower pressures means much better ride and grip.

What tyres and pressures are you running to pinch puncture, OP? I've never done that.

Snake-biting a tubeless tyre should be a very rare event - are you sure that's what you mean? You must be riding like a stripe-arsed ape / run ridiculously low pressure / or both to be seeing that on the reg.

Been on tubeless since most of ye were in short kecks and doubt I've seen more than 1 or 2 compression punctures of the tyre.

In answer to your question OP - everywhere. 😉

Sounds like insufficient pressure.

IME, people that complain so much about tubeless like this generally know how to go through the motions, but don't really understand it.

Is this you OP?

I've never had a snakey while using tubeless on the FS. I've had 2 split sidewalls but that was riding on sharp slatey stuff in the Lakes.

oh and look, the valve absolutely refuses to unscrew so you're swearing in the cold, dark and wet,

Ahh, now I've had this & it resulted in a meeting with 2 of Torridon Mountain Rescue's finest.

Otherwise, no problems. Still got tubes in the HT & road bike though.

Any scenario where you manage to snakebite a tyre would have killed a tube.

I have to agree with OP, I first tried tubeless years ago, even became quite evangelical about them for a while but ended up back in tubes after a bout of extreme faff.
Then again recently I thought the tech would have improved so bought the bits to convert a new bike did them myself first. The rear has been rock solid for six months but the front.. good god what a pia, even had the bike shop set it up and it still goes down and wont inflate so now has a tube fitted.
Just feels like I’ve wasted a lot of time and cash.

And that valve scenario, I’ve had that too and remember a particularly frantic Keilder 100 rider going balistic because he couldnt get a valve out to fit a tube shortly before the finish.

Still get them with tubeless and its always mahoosive snakebites that of course are right through the tire, twice

To be blunt, stop pissing about with flimsy tyres and low pressures which are inappropriate for your size and riding.

Tubeless. Another solution to a problem that didn't exist.

Any scenario where you manage to snakebite a tyre would have killed a tube.

Agree - but the OP is saying swapping a tube is less faff than putting a tube into a tubeless set up. And he's correct - esp if you cant get the valve out!

Tubeless. Another solution to a problem that didn't exist.

Nonsense. But I'm thinking you knew that already.
If you genuinely think that then you must never have had a puncture. Which is possible. I don't get punctures.......since I started running tubeless. 🙂

Tubeless. Another solution to a problem that didn't exist.

Don't be silly.

I now run 20psi in my tyres instead of 40 and I don't get punctures. Huge improvement. Not to mention the better rolling and increased grip. And I used to be a sceptic when I first heard of it.

Anchovies for repairing tyres rather than messing round with tubes.

Recently had a massive faff getting shortys onto WTB rims. My mistake was only using one layer of gorilla tape and not pumping it up high enough for it to pop into the rim. Once I'd done that they have been fine and I can run them at much lower pressures than the wire bead WTB vigilantes that I had on before with tubes. Feels so much better to ride in the mud, plusher and increased grip. You need a high pressure canister like the spesh air tool blast - makes it so much easier. Although I wanted to smash the rims to pieces the first few attempts...

I use the strips designed for my rims. Don't worry about how much tape to apply. One less variable and some tyres go up with a track pump.

Tubeless are a pain in the ass if you're using an unsuitable tyre. I've found this out the hard way. I've pinch flatted many rear tubeless tyres (can't recall ever doing a front one). On my old bike I solved this by buying a Schwalbe Hans Dampf Super Gravity rear tyre. I wasn't a big fan of the tyre, preferring my previous Maxxis tyres in terms of grip, but I never had any issues with flats ever again (this was before the days of the Maxxis DD casings).

On my new build I'd specced Maxxis Minion DHF EXOs front and rear. I'd hoped to get away with the EXO casing due to the larger tyre volume, and for a while I did. However, with my new bike came higher speeds and soon I was pinch flatting the rear on a fairly regular basis. I loved everything else about the tyres and really didn't want to change, so the solution for me was the Schwalbe ProCore system. I only use it in the rear wheel, and I can't recommend it highly enough. The combined weight of the tyre and ProCore system is around the same as the Super Gravity casing tyres, but has the following advantages:

a) I can run whatever tyre I fancy, without being limited to heavy duty tyre carcasses;
b) I can, and do, run much lower pressures than I would ever dare with tubeless/tubes;
c) I can inflate it with a mini-pump;
d) burping the tyre is pretty much impossible;
e) if the outer chamber punctures and doesn't seal, I can still finish a run or (if need be) get home.

It's not infallible. I have punctured the inner chamber once, but quite frankly I was asking for it and think I would have probably destroyed a wheel with any other setup.

Id say you were likely putting a similar number of holes in your tyre when snake biting with tubes...just why would you notice? Put a fresh tube in and its fixed right. Most (not all) snakebite holes i get are so small i wouldnt even be able to see them if it wasnt for the stans squirting out.

Not that that helps you much. More psi or more rubber if your shredding the gnar.

Tubeless rules

So what you're saying is that apart from the benefits what are the benefits?
It's not a magical no snakebite bullet but it helps. Procore still allows low pressures and faster rolling tyres with small holes sealed by the gunk.
It's a bit more faff but then again running is less faff than either. If it means I can run grippy tyres that roll fast and are lighter (procore is still lighter than going for a dual ply carcass which is the only thing I've found that compares for snakebite resistance) I'm prepared to faff a bit more.

Having a 'bike cave'. That's where you are going wrong.

I've managed to snakebite specialized 'control' carcass tyres on the rear when riding like an oaf a couple of times, but that was more down to the choice of tyre than using it tubeless, basically...

Any scenario where you manage to snakebite a tyre would have killed a tube.

And yes the ultimate fix (if it's beyond sealant or anchovies) in such situations is to fit a tube, but that's OK, on the occasions (once every couple of years) I do need to use a tube it simply reminds me how bone shackingly awful riding with tubes is and reinforces my belief that tubeless is the better solution for MTB tyres 😉

I've not had a puncture in a year now since going tubeless, but then again, i don't try and run <20psi, i still run 30-35 which i'm happy with and works well.

As above, if you're snakebiting tyres, then you can't be running a sensible PSI ?

Harsh, but have to agree. Snake biting tyres means the tyre sidewall was crushed. The only answers there are not enough air or not a strong enough tyre, possibly both.

As above, the three benefits of grip/traction/rolling/ground conformance, weight and puncture resistance are not something you get all togein full measure. You need to balance them by sensible choice of setup and materials in accordance with your riding style and where you go.

I've been mountain biking for around 25yrs now, but only converted to tubeless around 18 months ago and I'd say the difference is phenomenal. I'm a hefty lad (around 110 kg), and with tubes in I need to run pretty high pressures to avoid pinch flats. With the tubeless system, I can drop the pressure down to around 25 psi and the improved traction over rocks and roots is simply grin inducing.

Haven't had a single puncture (touch wood, touch wood), in that time either. Stick with it!

C.

p.s. Mind you, I always carry a spare tube....just in case!

It isn't rocket science. If you get a snakebite, add a few psi. Keep doing that until they stop happening, unless that takes the pressure much past 30psi. If that happens, buy a heavier casing tyre, drop about 5psi and repeat. If you get much past 30psi again, then add one of the new foam pinchflat/rim protection systems and repeat.

But if you have to go that far to prevent pinchflats in tubeless then you must have been running 50psi odd to prevent them with tubes!

arghghghghgh

That's quite a guttural scream you have there; lots of Gs - almost like a laugh from this guy...

[img] [/img]

Perhaps you have some sealant sloshing around in your throat.

Come on, has the OP said what tyres he's using? Gotta be the problem.

Foam.

Backer.

Rod.

Next?

When it goes according to plan, tubeless is bloody wonderful. When it doesn't, it's a colossal PITA.

I once bought a pair of very expensive Black Chilli compound tubeless ready Contis and a stray flint took out the sidewalls on both tyres on their very first ride. A very long and cold walk home was punctuated with much swearing, lesson learned I made sure that I knew the difference between "Tubeless Ready" and "Reinforced Sidewalls".

These days, I bite the bullet and go for something like Specialized's Grid carcass. Valves are a perennial pain too, if not seated carefully, sealant pisses into the rim and leaks through the spoke holes. I tend to carry a pair of small pliers with me whenever I install a new valve as it WILL start leaking as soon as I'm more than five miles from home.

If you're suffering from repeated snakebite type punctures on your tubeless tyres, then it's worth forking out for reinforced sidewalls on your next pair of tyres.

Loving tubeless normally, but last night on the ride home the rear felt a bit squirrelly for the last couple of miles. This morning I woke to find it had gone complete;y flat. I attacked it with a track pump and noticed the sidewalls of the Slaughter leaking fluid and air. Off to the cupboard to get Stan's and the syringr and the next ten minutes saw me do everything wrong.
The patio looked like a cross between a Badger meme and a farm yard after a new girl from PIC had her first day on the job.
Hosed everything down and the bike is now fine again. But it reckon the weight of the Stan's far exceeds the weight saving of the thinner casing. I'm going for the heavier on next time.
But apart from glitches like today tubeless has been effortless and easy for my for about 18,000 miles over the last 4 years on a variety of bikes.

Get some tough/high grip WTB tyres - you ain't never snakebiting those sidewalls! (Might double the weight of your bike though)

Procore is the answer

On the extremely rare occasion that I have had to put a tube into a tubeless tyre out in the field I found that using the chain pin remover from my Lezyne mini-tool set was pretty good at jamming around the valve washer when it was stuck. It gets you enough purchase to get the damn thing undone.

I may, have been slightly pissed off with life last night when I posted, so thank you all for the reasoned responses.

P-jay especially gave me an LOL 😀

Higher pressure might just be the answer. what a fanny. not wanting to splurge even more cash chasing the ****ing tubeless unicorn.

Oh, and eddiebaby, a special place in hell is reserved for the Stans syringe thingy. With race sealant, it of course almost instantly blocks, and then explodes. As you experienced. there's a BSN shaped spaff shadow on the wall of the bike cellar from that happening the other day.

You don't need the syringe. Just pour it into the tyre before you turn it the other way up and fit the last bit of bead.

Or use one of those special soft plastic designed-to-round-off valve core removers 😉

I dont know what your doing wrong but I just got one of those topeak digi pressure gauges(free evans gift voucher) purely as the guage on my track pump is beyond useless and I wanted to know what pressures i was running.

WITH TUBES it turns out i was running less than 25psi rear and 22 on the front, on a hardtail and I never puncture. WTB tough case up front and grid casing on the rear.

Think i'll not bother with tubeless nonsense for now.

was thinking of this thread on today's ride... and i got my 1st ever (noticeable) puncture whilst tubless (approx 5k miles)... and it just wouldn't seal again... i was less than half a mile from the car (at the end of the ride thankfully) and when i got back to the car i pumped it up again with the track pump, and you know what... the ****ing thing sealed in an instant... not sure if i should be pleased or annoyed?!?

my bike and fork are covered in tubeless spaff now too... i am annoyed at this part....

[i] tubeless nonsense[/i]

Yu-huh. That's what it is.

I dont know what your doing wrong but I just got one of those topeak digi pressure gauges(free evans gift voucher) purely as the guage on my track pump is beyond useless and I wanted to know what pressures i was running.

WITH TUBES it turns out i was running less than 25psi rear and 22 on the front, on a hardtail and I never puncture. WTB tough case up front and grid casing on the rear.

Think i'll not bother with tubeless nonsense for now.

I've got a Topeak digital pressure gauge. Consistent it is, accurate it definitely aint. Reads way lower than the true pressure. Still useful to have as consistently setting the tyre pressure is way more important than knowing the exact PSI. It's also why I treat any claims of pressures that people are running with a pinch of salt.

Seems strange to make a decision on whether or not to go tubeless based on a number from a gauge though, no matter how accurate. Either you want to run your tyres softer or you don't!

molgrips - Member
You don't need the syringe. Just pour it into the tyre before you turn it the other way up and fit the last bit of bead.

I was topping up sealant in an already fitted tyre. Why would I pop the tyre off the rim when I can just squirt through the valve stem?

Eddiebaby -
Why would I pop the tyre off the rim when I can just squirt through the valve stem?

I was thinking the same thing the other day as I was setting up a 29er for tubeless.
Thankfully the bead popped into place 1st time, but I can't help but think that not disturbing the tyre bead in the first place would be "better".
I've heard of people using a hypodermic needle to inject Stans fluid (into their tyres I might add), anyone actually tried this?

Could I ask what super calibrated pressure guage are you using?

I don't puncture so why bother. You lot can carry on with this ridiculous faff.

Get some tough/high grip WTB tyres - you ain't never snakebiting those sidewalls! (Might double the weight of your bike though)

Go on... they aren't that bad ... well ... maybe ... 😆

I firmly believe that reliable sidewalls are worth weight added though, so this is basically what I run on my bikes right now. I've told it before, but the WTB tough carcass survived being on the backend of a hardtail ridden by me down a fast drainage-bar covered decent with no air in it after I missed it getting loose earlier in the ride as the valve core undid itself. Stopped at the bottom, PMSL, got all shocked when I spotted the problem, used the spare valve core from my bag and pumped it back up. No drama, and not even a dented rim.

Stans injections... I use a few inches of screenwash hose left over from my last STW bottle rocket inflator and the little funnel thingy that used to come with the red scoop. When I can't find this, I use a 30ml syringe and the same sort of hose. No exploding spaff covered kitchens!

Tyre gauges - unless you're a race team and prepared to have the thing calibrated regularly / carry it in a pelican case, they're all inaccurate. What's special about the digital ones is their ability to be consistently inaccurate and respond in a sane manner below 20psi. Any super-accurate gauge is going to be dial based and far too expensive to chuck in your camelbak. Just never take other peoples' numbers seriously without a sanity check!

[i]I've heard of people using a hypodermic needle to inject Stans fluid (into their tyres I might add), anyone actually tried this?[/i]

I use the Mavic sealant bottle I got with my road wheels - it has nozzle that fits into the valve hole (and is useful for measuring quantity of fluid).

So my earlier post was tongue in cheek, but here's my two cents worth:
I have always used tubes, and although curious I probably always will. I have had zero punctures (kiss of death) in 10 years. 63kgs. Always run 25/28psi, normally a magic Mary front/chunky monkey in the summer and a nobby nic rear. I ride hard, most of the time

So my earlier post was tongue in cheek, but here's my two cents worth:
I have always used tubes, and although curious I probably always will. I have had zero punctures (kiss of death) in 10 years. 63kgs. Always run 25/28psi, normally a magic Mary front/chunky monkey in the summer and a nobby nic rear. I ride hard, most of the time

Converted this year after 20plus yrs of die hard tubes, mainly as I bought an Anthem with tubeless carbon rims. I then converted my Soul 26er. Soul now gone and new Bird HT. I wouldn’t go back to tubes for MTB - lower pressures, lots of grip, a couple of punctures sorted by sealant or anchovies without taking wheel off trailside.

Only slight negative is my Nobby Nics weeping on the garage floor, all the time.

Road and gravel bikes remain on tubes

Continued... Swinley/wales/surrey(mostly)/Chilterns. Not one puncture. So I would only go tubeless if the ride quality at the same pressures was better.... Is it? Having come from road I know that tubs 'feel' better than clinchers, is it a similar difference? Otherwise I don't see the point. At all.

Only slight negative is my Nobby Nics weeping on the garage floor, all the time.

Get snakeskin next time.

You lot can carry on with this ridiculous faff.

It's not faff though. If it were, I wouldn't do it.

So I would only go tubeless if the ride quality at the same pressures was better.... Is it?

I'd say so. The only back-to-back comparison I did was on the Patriot, and going tubeless made it roll far better and of course I run much lower pressures.

^^^^ they are snakeskin

Wow, really? I've recently fitted snakeskin Ralphs and they hold air better than any tyres I've used. No weeping at all.

Mine don’t lose air, they just leak clear sealant propellant compound, all the time. No negative impacts and I top them up every 3 months. I’ll likely change to something different when they get a bit more worn.

What sealant?

Regular Stans

gt56 - Member

So my earlier post was tongue in cheek, but here's my two cents worth:
I have always used tubes, and although curious I probably always will. I have had zero punctures (kiss of death) in 10 years. 63kgs. Always run 25/28psi, normally a magic Mary front/chunky monkey in the summer and a nobby nic rear. I ride hard, most of the time

Didn’t think about the issue of removing the valve nut if it’s slippery and no pliers. I run tubeless and worry about getting my wtb Tcs tyres off if I need to install a tube, I hadn’t thought about removing the valve stem. Perhaps someone should make a tubeless valve nut with some decent hand grip design?

Garry_lager 'aye right lad'. Maybe you could take me out and show me? Massive assumptions made there by you pal. I stated a fact. You're being a **** 'lad'

Could I ask what super calibrated pressure guage are you using?

Err, same one as you - that was my point. It’s consistent, but unless I’m really running 14psi in my rear tyre (I’m not) then it’s not accurate.

I don't puncture so why bother. You lot can carry on with this ridiculous faff.

Fair enough, it was just that your previous post suggested the decision to not go tubeless was due to the numbers given by your gauge.

After reading this post and other tubeless posts and always thinking what are these guys on about as I have never had issues with inflating tyres or them going down afterwards.

Last night I fitted a DH Casing DHF to my bike and this morning woke up to it being flat...bugger...

So I would only go tubeless if the ride quality at the same pressures was better.... Is it? Having come from road I know that tubs 'feel' better than clinchers, is it a similar difference?

I have had zero punctures (kiss of death) in 10 years.

Well, I'd say you're a very lucky 'lad'. One in a million. I had too many rides ruined by punctures and that hasn't happened in years with tubeless (I can recall 3 rides with puncture issues in about 10 years). Especially on the commute - sitting on the verge in a dark street in the rain, drivers chuckling as they go by... no more 🙂

I once bought a pair of very expensive Black Chilli compound tubeless ready Contis and a stray flint took out the sidewalls on both tyres on their very first ride. A very long and cold walk home was punctuated with much swearing, lesson learned I made sure that I knew the difference between "Tubeless Ready" and "Reinforced Sidewalls".

But that would have written off both tyres if you were running tubes as well. I always carry one spare tube and very rare to be riding by myself. Still a couple of bits of toothpaste tube in the toolkit for dealing with slashed tyres.

I've got a Topeak digital pressure gauge. Consistent it is, accurate it definitely aint. Reads way lower than the true pressure.

Checked bike at lunchtime. Back tyre flat. Pumped it, span it. Checked just now. Not flat. Why would you use tubes?! 🙂

Avoid the Fenwick's blue stuff at all costs. Not only is it guaranteed to stain stuff, but it refuses to seal anything, even tiny pinholes.

I had an incident with this stuff in MiL's kitchen. I'd seated the tyre and stupidly ran the bead under the hot tap, as my hands were cold. The sudden expansion blew the tyre off the rim, badly bruising my thumbs and covering the *entire* kitchen in blue sealant, apart from a silhouette of a slightly surprised man rendered on the wall behind the sink.

The kitchen resembled a smurf murder scene.

Top tip!

As a wee aside, in repairing (badly but temporarily) the 2 large snakebites in the rear tire, I have noticed that the rim does in fact look somewhat more like a 50p piece than a circle.

One big previous bash I knew about (the previous time I got a huge snakebite hole, different tires), but there are around 4 other big flat spots. Hats off to stans for building rims that stay sealed and true with that punishment.

So, yes, as you all told me, higher pressures needed. Maybe 15-18 psi was too low for a huge fat lad smashing into roots and rocks on a hard tail (even if the tires are 29+) 😳

*BSN shuffles off shamefully*

Only slight negative is my Nobby Nics weeping on the garage floor, all the time.

I had the same experience with Nobby Nic Snakeskins. Too much emphasis on light casing and not enough on being an appropriate construction for the job at hand.

Dampfs, on the other hand don't seem to have this problem - but OTOH the edge knobs tear off before the rest of the tyre is looking old.

i've stopped being worried about Schwalbe tyres, they don't work for me. If other people like them that's fine. 😀

After my woe of finding my DHF flat, I removed the tyre and fluid and re did the process now it has stayed up, I think what went wrong is after popping the bead on with my airshot, I let the tyre go flat whilst digging out a new valve core, the bead must have come off and not gone back on when I pumped it up via the track pump.

I went to my local pharmacy and got a syringe with a rubber pipe on the end, it cost less than £1 and the rubber pipe fits into the valve allowing me to squirt the fluid in that way.

Decent Casings
Airshot to inflate
Wipe bead with silicon spray lube before fitting
Remove valve core and fill using syringe (or even better, small bottle).
Carry anchovy kit to repair large punctures
Reasonable pressures

If you don't try to cut corners on kit Tubeless is completely painless IME. Back in tubed days every ride would involve someone messing with a puncture. Can ride for months without anyone having an issue nowadays.

And scrub the inside of the tyre carcass to get rid of the release agent. This can slow or stop the weeping too, as the sealant going through the side wall actually sticks to it and seals the pores.......