[Closed] Where have all the steel hard tails gone?

Where have they gone?
Stolen from my garage twice.
I now have a fat carbon framed HT. Would still rather have a Rock Lobster.

I can't speak for the other manufacturers, but OO are still touting the same stuff as before. They pay more attention to the 29ers and fatbikes these days, but they still sell the 456 / Inbred, etc.

Sanderson Breaths are very good. I had one for a while a few years ago. I've had several steel Konas and a 456. The Breath was like a slightly heavier and more modern version of an Explosif I once had.

I've just managed to snap up an unused 2012 Charge Duster frame on eBay for £165, which I'll be building up soon 😀

unfortunately charge are only doing 29" bikes now (although still steel frames).i e-mailed them about why they no longer had the duster bikes on their site (luckily i have a duster).

Theres one here

http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/my-new-bike-iz-sarcin-deeply-deeply-uncool-content

They are all going too fast for you to get pics:
[url= http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8433/7823956144_e931ae2c9c_b.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8433/7823956144_e931ae2c9c_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/matt_outandabout/7823956144/ ]Comrie Croft pump jump track[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/matt_outandabout/ ]matt_outandabout[/url], on Flickr

[url= http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8220/8345816715_474853b88c_b.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8220/8345816715_474853b88c_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/matt_outandabout/8345816715/ ]Carron Valley[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/matt_outandabout/ ]matt_outandabout[/url], on Flickr

[url= http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8450/8027376259_c5c678f651_b.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8450/8027376259_c5c678f651_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/matt_outandabout/8027376259/ ]Avoiding homework....[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/matt_outandabout/ ]matt_outandabout[/url], on Flickr
*shock* there are even *two* in this pic 😉
[url= http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8009/7592911488_bbe5c58098_b.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8009/7592911488_bbe5c58098_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/matt_outandabout/7592911488/ ]Callender Estates ride[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/matt_outandabout/ ]matt_outandabout[/url], on Flickr

Mine resting in 2009

[img] [/img]

There's 2 in my shed for a start off...
Thinking of sticking my summer season frame in the classifieds if you're looking secondhand?

Sanderson Soloist here. Proper steel ride. Loving it TBH. The Breath is the the geared version without the EBB. A LOT nicer than the OO SS I had before. It just felt dead and lifeless. And it wasn't the rest of the build at fault. I swapped all of the components on to a Ragley Blue Pig and it was a different beast. The standard 456 is miles ahead of the SS.

The standard 456 is miles ahead of the SS.

A different bike designed for a different purpose.

If I remember correctly, the SS is made of plain-gauge tubing, and has a 2-degree slacker head angle. It's designed to give you slack angles without needing to run such a long fork, which changes the geometry radically under compression. A different take on the Downhill Hardtail idea.

But I will allow you to not like it 😉 I ride a standard 456, myself.

well ive just built up a 456 ss, finished it last night. wanted a ss so i can run my 130mm forks i had kicking about and still have a nice slack head angle! not riden it yet tho 😉
[img] [/img]

Ragley have a whole load of new frames round the corner, their FB page has plenty of pics. New Blue Pig, Piglet and a 29er Big Wig.

The piglet frame gets my vote. [url= http://wideopenmag.co.uk/news/17564/core-bike-show-2013-ragley-piglet-mk2 ]Link[/url]

The Breath was like a slightly heavier and more modern version of an Explosif I once had.

I can vouch for this statement. I've ridden my explosif and soloist on the same trails and will [b]CATEGORICALLY[/b] state that Sandersons are very Kona-esque.

It's a shame they're heavier, and it's a shame my explosif only has a 1" headtube and no disc tabs. Otherwise I'd be keeping it.

the Sanderson is a great frame.... had mine for yonks now. has been "down-graded" to city/hack bike of late, but was/is always a good ride. a very steel-feel (i know this sounds cliche, but there are other steel frames that feel dead in comparison. my DB Alpine has a very dud feel to it until you really rag the tits off it; the Sanderson feels lively at lower speeds).

I just finished my budget inbred build. First steel frame I've had since the 90s

[IMG] [/IMG]

456SS here.

It just felt dead and lifeless

Mine does too, until i ride it.

[img] [/img]

Loving my wee ss at the minute

[url= http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8090/8441386003_b5f28272a4.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8090/8441386003_b5f28272a4.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/49017178@N04/8441386003/ ]Mugdock1[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/49017178@N04/ ]Doubledunter[/url], on Flickr

But would love this

[url= http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8225/8465198615_e02f69cfbf.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8225/8465198615_e02f69cfbf.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/49017178@N04/8465198615/ ]Soul1[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/49017178@N04/ ]Doubledunter[/url], on Flickr

Williej - Have you got a better pic of that lovey Sanderson?

Maguras, Rockshox? Right up my street, is that! 🙂

5 steel frames, 1 rigid too, can't beat em.
All locked up

They're pikes on the Sanderson.

I only know that because of the number on the bridge

It had been along time since I last owned a steel bike, but I'm really loving my Dekerf.......

[IMG] [/IMG]

we've just finished this one :

[url= http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8472/8435363217_a97ee3873e_z.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8472/8435363217_a97ee3873e_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/shandcycles/8435363217/ ]Shand 29er[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/shandcycles/ ]shandcycles[/url], on Flickr

and we'll have our new production hardtail ready in a couple of weeks to be officially launched at the Bristol [url= http://www.bespokedbristol.co.uk/ ]Bespoked[/url] show in April.

Might consider getting a sanderson.

I'm currently on A 2009 voodoo Bantu bought on c2w, slight bug bear as I'm over 6ft so bought the 20" frame, considering its a large frame I'm bolt upright on it yet all the weight is on my hands... its like riding a bloody gate!

Anyone think buying some higher rise bars could help as an interim measure?

It does me fine and the 09 models were great value for money... mavic rims, race face finishing kit, juicy 3s, epicon fork, x5 drive train and truative cranks.... and it cost £579 less tax saving thru c2w so can't really complain.... makes me laugh how halfords/voodoo are Joe Murray this, Joe Murray that yet he said in the ST mag interview a couple of months ago that he barely has anything to do with them nowadays.

I have a Sanderson Life and love it - but keep bending the mech hanger and dropout open on passing sticks. Done it twice now, sob.
[img] [/img]

Side-on shot for PP:

[url= http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2647/3869897097_20f4337fd2_z.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2647/3869897097_20f4337fd2_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/27050641@N08/3869897097/ ]Image049[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/27050641@N08/ ]will jenkins[/url], on Flickr

Truth be told I wish it had been a 17" with the same length top tube, just because it had a lot of seatpost showing most of the time!

Mine's gone nowwhere, it's just been in bits during a rebuild, but now - [url= http://z6.invisionfree.com/Sussex_Muddyarse/index.php?showtopic=3489 ]It's back![/url]

Oooh, rapidly becoming a proper Sanderson thread... *approves*

Truth be told I wish it had been a 17" with the same length top tube, just because it had a lot of seatpost showing most of the time!

Yeah, they are loooong bikes. I had a Breath. Lovely though, and yours is a corker 🙂

This is my Breath from about 6 years ago now

[url= http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2726/4271555702_2e576ce36c_o.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2726/4271555702_2e576ce36c_o.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/peter_atkin/4271555702/ ]Sanderson 19[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/peter_atkin/ ]PeterPoddy[/url], on Flickr

[url= http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4063/4271556848_c13e0de0af_o.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4063/4271556848_c13e0de0af_o.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/peter_atkin/4271556848/ ]Sanderson 17[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/peter_atkin/ ]PeterPoddy[/url], on Flickr

And this is how it ended up 🙁

[url= http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4043/4270734183_e9f96df9a2_o.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4043/4270734183_e9f96df9a2_o.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/peter_atkin/4270734183/ ]Crash_018[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/peter_atkin/ ]PeterPoddy[/url], on Flickr

oh dear, how did that happen ?

Jesus, that must of been a heavy hit Peter!

Not wanting to upset anyone because I can see you like your Sandersons but you can't say they're a newer version of an explosif. When the explosif was in its heyday it was a top class production steel frame retailing at £450-500 frame only and I'm talking the mid nineties here. It used a lot of the top steel tube sets of the day and was one of the first to feature things like ribbed and shaped ovalised tubing which in turn lead to all the monocoque frame designs after it. I'm not sure what you would compare it to now, in this country at the very least compare the Explosif to a Soul but the Explosif had worldwide fame. it certainly would not be compared to a relatively cheap frame like the Sanderson. They might have achieved a similar ride as the Explosif but the Explosif had those ride characteristics 20 years ago. The Explosif is an Iconic steel hardtail. The Sanderson is not. That's not to say its not a good bike of course and I do like them myself but someone earlier compared it to an Explosif with a 1" headtube which must be at least 22 years old!

Setting apart the iconic or not, there is minimal difference between a Soul and Breath et al in dimensions and tubing - it is just certain brands that STW seems to go do-lally over.

Ok poor comparison but is the Explosif iconic? Yes. Is the Sanderson? No.

I had a 2003 Explosif, the grey one made from True Temper OX Platinum, with an inch and an eighth headtube. I said the Breath was like a heavier, more modern version. Yes, the Breath was cheaper (hence heavier) but it was also 6 years younger. The ride was very similar in general terms. Not the same, similar 🙂

And Matt you've maybe just hit it on the nose. The Sanderson is like other bikes whereas the Explosif was something different and better. Fancy tubing before its time, straight bladed rigid forks that we see so much of now and of course that sloping top tube.

Surely a more modern version of an explosif would bring something to the table that other bikes didn't have. I know the new Explosifs don't and they're a bit of a disappointment really compared to what they once were. Not trying to sound argumentative here really but fear I am so I'm going to bed now, night night.

Oh, I agree on that - the iconic bit.
But ride quality wise...

When I said more modern I meant in its ability to take longer forks, bigger tyres and so on. I didn't mean it was someone's evolution of the Explosif.

Built this up at the weekend:

[url= http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8091/8457622655_c386169a21.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8091/8457622655_c386169a21.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/kryton1957/8457622655/ ]Kinesis1[/url]

It my second steel frame the first being a Genesis Altitude. First ride on this will be tomorrow morning, can't wait!

Edit: Now with Trailraker/Bonty MudX combo and inner tube stylee chain stay.

I get the feeling steel is out of fashion again, orange didn't make a P7 this year, and if you look in the classifieds quite a few P7's for sale (including mine) and no one's that interested.

I loved my hardtail, steel for me is the best bike ive had, but room at home etc.. means it has to go.

Setting apart the iconic or not, there is minimal difference between a Soul and Breath et al in dimensions and tubing - it is just certain brands that STW seems to go do-lally over.

Well the Soul has an 853 front triangle, not just chro-moly, and thus weighs 0.4lbs less. The Life is closer being 853 up front but still heavier. And the current Soul just seems to have all the little details better thought out - tapered fork compatible, dropper post compatible, no chainstay bridge for more mud clearance, neat dropouts with replaceable mech hanger, oval top tube (stiffer laterally, more compliant vertically), etc. It may ride incredibly similarly but those details count and it's one reason that the Soul is, in a rather small way, somewhat iconic - there is substance behind the brand value.

One's not an icon, it's not got fancy tubes, it's heavier but its just as good to ride.

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Would the Voodoo Bizango be more like a modern Explosif, considering where it's from...

I get the feeling steel is out of fashion again, orange didn't make a P7 this year, and if you look in the classifieds quite a few P7's for sale (including mine) and no one's that interested.

It's a shame you're forced to sell. But that aside, i'm quite pleased the Steel HT thing is going out of vouge; it means we can be niche again!

Belt drive 29ers with lefty forks and stupid bars are too common these days...

You would have thought that the bike industry would realise that the STW forum could sustain the continued worldwide demand for steel hard tails all on it's own! 😉

Here is mine:

[img] [/img]

On the plus side it's a steel Kona! 😀 The negative is it is heavy! 🙁

I was quite surprised to see that there isn't a steel hardtail in the Orange range at the moment. Just butt ugly clown bikes. Here's mine enjoying a post ride pint...

[url= http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8058/8206013738_8eceb06bfc_z.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8058/8206013738_8eceb06bfc_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/14162682@N00/8206013738/ ]orange[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/14162682@N00/ ]binlidski[/url], on Flickr

oh dear, how did that happen ?

Jesus, that must of been a heavy hit Peter!

Yep. It was a big hit. I rode into a parked car at about 15mph. Didn't see it until my head broke the windscreen. Yes. I am eejit.

Surely a more modern version of an explosif would bring something to the table that other bikes didn't have.

I have a modern version of an Explosif, too. It's an Explosif:

[url= http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7277/6888240674_16086f4b39_o.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7277/6888240674_16086f4b39_o.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/peter_atkin/6888240674/ ]IMG_3493[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/peter_atkin/ ]PeterPoddy[/url], on Flickr

[url= http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7070/6888240240_6452893bb3_o.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7070/6888240240_6452893bb3_o.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/peter_atkin/6888240240/ ]IMG_3496[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/peter_atkin/ ]PeterPoddy[/url], on Flickr

[url= http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7094/7034334427_7940384558_o.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7094/7034334427_7940384558_o.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/peter_atkin/7034334427/ ]IMG_3497[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/peter_atkin/ ]PeterPoddy[/url], on Flickr

[url= http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7104/7034334927_993d52a201_o.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7104/7034334927_993d52a201_o.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/peter_atkin/7034334927/ ]IMG_3495[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/peter_atkin/ ]PeterPoddy[/url], on Flickr

Gripshift are now XT thumbs, and i has a silver seatpost and soon some Charge Splashback tyres.

I'm with binners, had a P7 for a few years now, bought frame second hand, built up as a 1x10 now, taken everything i've thrown at it, soaks up the knocks and feels really lively on fast trails. If I had the doh i'd look at a Cotic though, their sweet as

Here's my P7 yep and i know the cables need sorting, popping into my lbs today to get the brakes bled and cables sorted, its only been a couple of years riding like that, and no those pedals are not the usual normally some stealth candys.

[url= http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8078/8426211561_a992cb5cd4.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8078/8426211561_a992cb5cd4.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

I have a p7 like Binners'. My fave ever bike. 🙂
It's hibernating in the north at the moment. 😥

[img] :large[/img]

T'Clockwork

PP very nice, what year is it? It's got a fluted DT so I'm guessing 93/94.

How is it suck good condition, have you resprayed it?

I love my Curtis - made in the UK from UK tubing;

[IMG] [/IMG]

I love the way it's put together and there's some lovely details;

[IMG] [/IMG]

Here's my Surge, gets used for anything and everything, by far the most ridden out of my bikes.

[img] http://www.flickr.com/photos/92337870@N02/8391145029/ ][img] http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8465/8391145029_28879d7b7f.jp g" target="_blank">http://www.flickr.com/photos/92337870@N02/8391145029/ ][img] http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8465/8391145029_28879d7b7f.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

Stirlingcrispin re mech hanger
They something like this
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=50143&utm_source=Google&utm_medium=Shopping&utm_name=UnitedKingdom
the are keeper ones about on one did one for about a tenner

Stripped my old bike yesterday.
Yellow hand job 'rolling chassis' currently in the cellar, awaiting further fettling later today.
Slowly, slowly, buildy bikey 🙂

My old explosif - sold a while ago:

[img] [/img]

my current wanga, sporting rigid forks and slicks:

[img] [/img]

About to head out to Sherwood Pines 😀

[img] [/img]

So I'm going for the sanderson breath, I'm just over 6ft, currently ride an 18” voodoo but I feel bolt upright when I ride it. The 18” sanderson's top tube length is 30mm more than the voodoo, should I stick with 18” or go for the 20? Its a hard one to gauge as once I've picked on I've got to stick with it!

Dialled Bikes. Albert Classic 853.
[url= http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8457/8032322970_5060d67bc8.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8457/8032322970_5060d67bc8.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/55204994@N03/8032322970/ ]DSC_0241[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/55204994@N03/ ]Loco Tuning[/url], on Flickr

😀

I am bob on 6' and ride an 18" Breath. Tis lovely 99% of the time, only on a couple of really long uphills have I though it is a tad short (and that is with 60mm stem on)

The 18” sanderson's top tube length is 30mm more than the voodoo, should I stick with 18” or go for the 20?

I am 6'2" - I have the Sanderson Breath 18" with a 60mm stem and layback seatpost. Great bike - works for me.

LoCo, love that blue 🙂

PP very nice, what year is it? It's got a fluted DT so I'm guessing 93/94.

Very good! It's a 93. USA spec frame though, was originally a similar BR green where the UK models were silver faded to a colour

This was the frame as I got it
[url= http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6113/6265664951_9eafc49bef_o.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6113/6265664951_9eafc49bef_o.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/peter_atkin/6265664951/ ]IMG_2519[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/peter_atkin/ ]PeterPoddy[/url], on Flickr

Better view of the colour and fluted down tube

[url= http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6051/6266193984_f028a352a5_o.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6051/6266193984_f028a352a5_o.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/peter_atkin/6266193984/ ]IMG_2513[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/peter_atkin/ ]PeterPoddy[/url], on Flickr

How is it suck good condition, have you resprayed it?

Yes. Done by Argos Cycles in Bristol. Braze ons added for the Magura Hydraulics (or full length outers for vee brakes I suppose) and the cable hanger removed from the stem. Frame painted in the closest British Racing Green they had to the OE colour and the forks and stem in champagne gold. Decals by Gil at The Cycle Shed, done to my colour and spec.
I don't ride it much. It's for sunny summer rides and pootles only. 🙂 It looks better in the flesh too.

 

Same here: I'm 6ft1 and ride an 18" Life and 20" Soloist.

The Life is perfect and chuckable. I do OK on the soloist but do sometimes feel like I'm manoeuvring a gate.

Speshpaul - thanks. I've been meaning to try a hangerbanger again. I had one on a previous Ti frame (snapped). Not sure one would have saved me when I've picked sticks though - and I only do it every few years :?.

Here's mine:
[URL= http://www.mediafire.com/conv/5f3a905fc3a51cc5476038bdf4cd6720f22c8f965de0293f380099549f552d794g.jp g" target="_blank">http://www.mediafire.com/conv/5f3a905fc3a51cc5476038bdf4cd6720f22c8f965de0293f380099549f552d794g.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]

It's an 18" with a 90mm stem. I'm 6'3" with 34" inside leg. Works fine.

18” it is!

I see activesports.co.uk are selling them for 255, anyone had any experience with them? Next question is blue or racing green?

Just completed the Puffer with my 456 ss with 140mm forks. No probs doing any of it and the descents where a hoot

I do prefer the green to my blue...

That looks like a good price. And green I reckon.

IIRC activesport.co.uk are one of those bike shops whose online stock control is rather optimistic, and much less reliable than if you phone them up and ask. And even then....

[url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/rant-effing-activesportcouk ]Ahem. Plenty more threads like this on here too. [/url]

Here's mine in many guises
[IMG] [/IMG]
[IMG] [/IMG]
[IMG] [/IMG]
[IMG] [/IMG]

Currently at the powdercoaters for a freshen up

Here's another one - my Dialled Prince Albert Mk1, in it's various guises and colours (same frame)

[url= http://farm1.staticflickr.com/30/38553246_b76ca0aae0.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm1.staticflickr.com/30/38553246_b76ca0aae0.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

[url= http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3639/3503760948_c348f70678.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3639/3503760948_c348f70678.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

[url= http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8378/8468846778_0103803cb2.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8378/8468846778_0103803cb2.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

[url= http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6239/6377288887_42bf7b1826.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6239/6377288887_42bf7b1826.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

[img] [/img]

My stanton slackline.. love it!

Ah, that is the Stanton Slackline.

Can I play,my Prince Albert in its original guise
[IMG] [/IMG]

And in its current guise
[IMG] [/IMG]

My old 2002 Kona Scab is in bit in my garage.. Looking to sell it but not got a clue about £££?? Not ridden it in ages. Good fun when I did 🙂

Holy thread resurrection Batman!

My Duster is now built-up and it's just been on shakedown and new brake bed-in ride. Need to make a few tweaks but happy so far.

[url= http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7416/8731473270_987aec9055_c.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7416/8731473270_987aec9055_c.jp g"/> [/img][/url] [url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/27050641@N08/8731473270/ ]Untitled[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/27050641@N08/ ]will jenkins[/url], on Flickr[/img]