Writing on behalf of the missus.
She has a 29er full sus and doesn't get on with it, expensive enough bike, her second mountain bike, a Transition Smuggler.
She rode a hardtail for two years as her first ever MTB back in 2017, she really got the bug and was progressing very well, confidence and competence coming on in equal measures. That was a Cube women's specific HT,29er with XC geometry.
It was me who gently encouraged her to make the plunge and go full sus, as we were riding bike parks and enduro type trails and she was loving it all.
She somehow lost lots of confidence and the ability to ride decent tech trails on the Smuggler .
Fast forward another three years and she's still not getting on with it... Apart from a confidence inspiring trip or two to Wales., her riding is still way down compared with how she was on the cheaper HT and she would be the first person to say it., on the same trails.
We're looking for a solution ., there was a large gap of not riding with Covid restrictions and an injury.
Switch to a hardcore hardtail 29er frame ?
Sell the whole bike and switch to 27.5?
Accept that Transition geometry, or modern enduro geometry isn't for her ?
To make things a bit more confusing , she loved riding a Nukeproof Mega 29er years ago, but the geometry then changed to the new long slack style afterwards.
She is 5'6, on a size small, with 30mm stem. Was originally sold the wrong size for her height and got a free exchange.
Any help or insight greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
My missus is 5'4".
She's tried all sorts of different bikes and the only ones she gets on with are Specialized. She really likes them.
Currently on a stumpie expert fs...
Not really sure why I'm telling you this....
Try a stumpie? ( by which I mean a three year old one, not one of the stupid Evo ones)
Accept that Transition geometry, or modern enduro geometry isn’t for her ?
It isn't for everyone.
My Trek is a bit Mondeo in geometry, but it feels, well, normal. Normal is good.
Personally I'd suggest trying lots of different bikes to try to pin down what the issue might be. Attack the problem as if you're looking for a new bike. I'd try demo bikes, borrow bikes from mates etc. Hard tail, FS, 29er, 27.5+, mullet, whatever. Try them all (or as many as you can!) Also play around with what you've got.
A one-on-one skills day might yield some insights too.
For many, modern bikes provide increased confidence, stability etc. It was certainly the case for my wife, who came back to MTB after many years away, and found modern geometry (a Cotic FlareMax) enormously to her liking.
Best of luck to her anyhow! Hope she gets it sorted 🙂
This might seem an odd suggestion but try a 50mm stem. Every bike I’ve tried with a 30 or 35mm stem has felt nervous and weird and discouraged me from getting my weight forwards. Bizarrely swapping from a 35 to 50mm stem made my old hardtail feel less big because of how I moved myself forwards on the bike.
Also as it’s a full-sus, are both ends of the suspension properly balanced, rebound especially?
What is it about the bike that she doesn’t get on with?
Just throwing a few ideas out:
Could be the 30mm stem potentially - makes the steering quite quick. I prefer a slightly shorter reach bike but run a 50mm stem.
Has she had any coaching? Could be she just needs some pointers on body position on the bike to make the most of it. The longer the reach generally the more you need to consciously weight the front wheel.
Suspension setup - is she running the right sag and what adjustments have you got on the bike?
Tyres? Maybe the front tyre isn’t giving her confidence it’s going to stick in faster corners?
Other than trying the above then the idea posted above to ride as many different bikes as you can to compare is a good idea.
Not sure on the geometry difference between a 3 year old smuggler and a new Transition Spur but I’m the same height as her and wouldn’t want to drop to a small from my current medium frame. She definitely on the right size? I know there are general differences between M & F bike sizing and it sounds like you’ve investigated all that though.
So, lessons sound like a good idea - I’m still figuring out how to ride mine properly after a small 26” Soul and will be having some lessons. I love mine though!
I would second the calls to get some coaching first. My other half had learned bike position by rote rather than feel, so moving to a modern bike ended up with her weight way too far back and a sketchy experience. Second to that hire bikes on trips away; buying a bike she had a great time on when she hired it on holiday should help mentally frame it as a good bike; the current one may just have to much mental association with cycling badly even if it isn’t a bad bike.
A small smuggler isn’t really that modern for geometry, even the last sbg version was pretty standard, especially on a small, as it only had 430ish reach and pretty standard wheelbase for a 29er.
What is the feeling she doesn’t like, is it twitchy, so longer stem or shorter bars, does it feel loose over stuff, so maybe suspension, or hard to get weight or vet the front or rear, so positioning and so on?
If setup is fine, it’s best growing the skills needed for what you’re trying to do, be that jumping, wheelying, manuals, pump track, etc, etc, this is something I tend to go to when confidence is low on something, fast berms are my weakness, I always feel like I’m washing out, so pump tracks and 4x style little runs help me get rid of that washout feel, doesn’t stop me falling though!
As above, modern geometry bikes feel like you have no control over the front wheel and you have to make a conscious effort to have your weight further forward. I like to think of my shoulders pushing down on the bars on steep corners; I've never ridden a 29er though...
Hey thanks for all the help so far.
I didn't mention that she has had a full private coaching day before, on the Smuggler. It helped a lot for a few days , then her riding started to go back to how it was before.
Her main issue is cornering . Most of the time she's competant enough on straight sections.
She says the HT just went where she wanted it to go on turns, but not this.
Regards the sizing, she was sold a medium first. She was struggling to get around some corners and even started to say "I can't turn" , at the end of every descent . After checking the sizing it looked like she was a small not medium. We thought it would fix the cornering , but not much difference. Not a huge amount anyway.
The geometry thing, I have a Smuggler too. Mines an older generation,hers is a lot more slack compared to mine. Both bikes maybe not considered modern geometry in the grand scheme of things.
The stem - interesting about going back to 50mm. We've briefly tried different sizes, but our theory would be that shorter is better .
We'll try get our hands on more bikes to ride.
She says when she picks a line on a descent, the Smuggler doesn't go where she wants it to go (-she's sitting next to me now).
I've tried to say that with her Smuggler , you kind of need to be turning with your body just as much as the arms . Can't rely on turning the handlebars like you can almost get away with on a XC hardtail .
I have the 2015/16 Smuggler, hers is the 2018/19. Her original medium felt bigger and slacker than the medium I still have.. but as I said, maybe not big and slack compared with other brands.
She learns by doing , so all the other wording about body positioning would probably be like double Dutch right now.
Is there much difference in head angle between the Cube and the Smuggler? ‘Not turning’ sounds like it might be an issue with not being familiar with a slack head angle.
I didn’t mention that she has had a full private coaching day before, on the Smuggler. It helped a lot for a few days , then her riding started to go back to how it was before.
Her main issue is cornering . Most of the time she’s competant enough on straight sections.
She says the HT just went where she wanted it to go on turns, but not this.That says to me she isn’t actively weighting the front wheel / riding it aggressively enough. So that’s either technique or the bike is too big for her to be able to do it.
Looking at the 2019 smuggler geometry on geometry geeks it says it’s 425mm reach / 430mm chainstays / 66 degree headangle / 35mm bb drop.
The medium is 450mm reach so that does sound like it would have been too big - I ride bikes ideally between 450-465mm at 5’9. I don’t see you’ll get many decent bikes with a shorter reach than 425mm. Remember if looking at hardtails that the reach grows when the fork sags but generally with full suss it doesn’t really change.
I think some more coaching and then actively reinforcing that by practising deliberately what she’s been taught is worth a go. It takes some practice to remember all the bits I’ve found and I still find I ride better if I really concentrate on what I was taught - turning hips into the corner / weighting the handlebar on the inside of the corner / keeping the position good with slightly bent elbow / weighting gmeh outside foot on the pedals to counteract the pushing down on the inside of the handlebar.
There’s a good Ben Cathro video on cornering she could watch:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOqFywGllFw
Then you could do some videos of her whilst sessioning a bit of trail so she can see what she’s doing and make some changes. At the Forest of Dean (for example) there’s a little stretch on one of the DH trails that’s mildly inclined and has 2 bermed corners (one each way) that are perfect for it.
Sounds a bit daft but I’ve given full sus a go on several occasions and just basically prefer how hardtails ride. Could it be something as simple as that?
By the way, female specific geometry etc doesn’t really exist - the distribution of arm vs torso vs leg lengths is the same for men and women of the same genetic heritage. And although women have narrower shoulders on average height for height, that doesn’t mean narrower bars are better because they also tend to have less upper body strength so the extra leverage of a wider bar can be beneficial.
The only vaguely consistent male vs female things on bikes (but again there’s a huge spread with a huge overlap) is saddle widths, grip thicknesses and shock tunes (lighter for a given height).
Sounds like my Bird Aether7 days out.
Sounds like my Bird Aether7 days out.
That bike was totally too big for you / a massive reach step up from your previous bike though. I still think you’d have got in much better with an ML 👌
Maybe she just doesn't like the Smuggler?
I've ridden bikes I've loved and bikes I've hated, and a few that were just OK.
If she doesn't like this but was riding better on the Cube HT get back on the Cube (or get another if it's now gone) Different people like different bikes, that one suited her so ride one like tbat
Her main issue is cornering . Most of the time she’s competant enough on straight sections.
Interesting. My missus also has issues with corners. Partly due to a near miss in tignes, but also due to whoknowswhat. In the past she was happy on various black routes, Porcy Rim, Portal Trail etc but these days has real issues on corners. I just put it down to mellowing out as she got older, but perhaps not. She does always seem to me to be too far back on the bike, so perhaps she needs to weight the front wheel more like people above say...
Yours too?
The older AL (2018) Mega 290 was one of the best bikes I have ridden. I got one when I moved to the Tweed Valley. Also at the time I think NP were getting some good results on that gen. So fun to ride. I spent about a month on the new one and no thanks. Just a stick of celery.
@thebunk , are you a female rider too? Just curious.
@michaelmcc just double checked, I’m a bloke 😉
Another vote for 50 or 60 mm stem. I’ve recently switched from 35 to 50. Admittedly also switched frames so not apples to apples.
Feel like it is helping me weight the front in turns.
Assuming the bike is in working order - no loose headset, wheel bearings etc that could be giving it vagueness? Even something like the brakes being a bit crap could give some subliminal ‘descends like crap’ feeling
I'm the same size and I find modern bikes to be quote low in stack. I have lots of spacers on the steerer and a high rise bar (38mm). Size small is too small for me. The other thing could be that the actual bar is behind the stem. Measure across the ends of the bar and see if it is actually ahead of the steerer tube. Getting the roll right on the bar made a big difference to my riding as well.
It could also just be the bike being a small 29er.
I'd echo poah. I'm a T-rex (long legs, short arms) and I find a lot of bikes have too low stack for me. They require a lot of weight over the front wheel to properly corner and I'm not confident or aggressive enough to actually achieve it. I'd liken it to a similar sensation to skiing in the back seat. I now look for frames with a higher than perhaps "normal" stack. This isn't helpful in "fixing" an already purchased bike but I'd recommend fitting some high riser bars and maxing out the steerer to see if it helps.
How wide are her bars?
mrs_oab's xs bike came with 'on trend' wide bars. Great when you're a 6' gorilla, not when you're 5'1" with matching arms... The first few rides mrs_oab detested the bike - steeps and corners 'felt wierd'.
We swapped to narrower bars, with a touch more rise, and transformed how the bike felt to her.
I too am happier with higher bars, it helps me weight the front (contrary to some views) and also really fussy about bar roll - I need the grips high enough and far enough in front of the steerer to stick that front in on corners especially when it’s steeper or rougher.
So much of bike handling is down to that “cockpit” stuff (that’s a v annoying word!) and it’s not always that easy to work out. I ran my forks too hard for years to get my bars high enough!
Sounds a bit daft but I’ve given full sus a go on several occasions and just basically prefer how hardtails ride. Could it be something as simple as that?
I'm not even convinced by front suspension!
The corners thing… makes me think: make sure the bars aren’t too wide compared to her shoulders, think about trying to lean the bike round corners rather than point the front wheel that way (there’s a bit on me learning that in here https://singletrackmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/learning-your-turns-with-nukeproof-chain-reactions-elliott-heap/ ), and making sure the front tyre is one that suits her/conditions in conjunction with that need to lean. If there’s a big gap to get to the side knobs, not leaning far enough can feel really sketchy because you miss the traction zone. Try swooping side to side on a fire road or street, by leaning the bike rather than steering the handlebars - getting a feel for that should help a lot. If she got better after a coaching course, it sounds a bit like she might just need more practice drumming in the teachings from that so it becomes intuitive, rather than reverting to old body positions.
I made some notes to help a pal learn to lean the bike beneath them rather that sit and steer.
Your missus is standing to corner?
As an aside I wonder if the bike could handle a 650 rear. That’s my setup and to me it seems the vast of both worlds. Rollover front. Turn-in rear.
Bike notes. Training cornering
- a lot of turning well is about bike and rider separation. The rider is weighting the tyres and, generally, not leaning into the turn with the bike.
-
- Ready Position. Discuss bent back v squat pose / hip hinge, bent back makes it hard to look up.
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- Let palms push the bar not thumbs elbows out a bit (set levers accordingly)
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- Push through feet, when braking drop heels.
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- Floating, get bounce and spring on the pedals. Keep heels low
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- Dominant foot - A back foot turn is easier. Left turn, left foot forward = a back foot turn. (Because its the heel of the back foot that drops to lower the pedal).
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- Don’t fully straighten weighted (outer) leg - maintain human suspension.
- 1: Look round the corner
- And drop shoulder to initiate the turn first (counter-steer?), as head turns and shoulder drops, that’s the cue to begin to drop the heel of the outer foot
- let inner knee go into the corner, gradually dropping the outside foot (and squatting the hips/ bend elbows - so the outer knee goes towards the top tube [lowering centre of gravity]
- Stay low until the apex,
- then push off with heels, but heels stay low(almost a tap if outer pedal reached 6:00) & gradually move back to level feet.
- All the while head up and looking ahead. Heels low.
Some links:
https://nsmb.com/articles/cure-your-2006-posture-cone-training/
http://point1athletic.com/foxdialed-prime-posture-post-script/
Barel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gF5K9V2w6W8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJf4bQ1y1f0&t=93s
Cathro:
Ben Cathro post on position etc.
10 months ago (edited)
Some people drop pedals and it works, some don't, some weight inside hand when cornering, some don't.
Key thing is try everything and find what works for you.
BUT, in general you're absolutely correct that your biggest mistake is your tendency to squat down with your legs and push your chest back with your arms.
Some things to try out to help remedy this are:
• Try and maintain light pressure in your hands when changing direction.
• Try and keep your head directly over the bars when changing direction.
•Try and run your legs almost straight as your default position then only bend them when required.
•Try and always reset the legs to almost straight when the trail allows to stop you defaulting to the squat.
• When pumping the bike into a turn DON'T pump with the arms, try pumping just with your legs. Feels like you're going to push yourself out the front door but what it does is stops you leaning back and settles you into an "attacking" position ready for the next turn.
It's VERY hard to concisely put what you should be doing into words as everyone has a different understanding of certain words and phrases. Play with some of the above in a safe environment and use what works for you. In my opinion there's not a lot of point in doing the "fancy" stuff until you get your weight distribution sorted. Then you can go nuts.
HIH
You mentioned she'd had a days coaching and it worked, for a few rides.
She needs to do some more coaching.
TBH in many sports folk continually have coaching - golf for example.
I find… that weighting the front wheel on a hardtail is far more intuitive than it is on a (good) full suss. Slacker angles add to that effect. I have to consciously make sure my weight is through the bars/fork/wheel with rear sus and slacker headangle… jump back on a hardtail and it just happens automatically.
I find… that weighting the front wheel on a hardtail is far more intuitive than it is on a (good) full suss. Slacker angles add to that effect. I have to consciously make sure my weight is through the bars/fork/wheel with rear sus and slacker headangle… jump back on a hardtail and it just happens automatically.
I'm the opposite - when riding my HT, I have to conciously push my weight forward in corners to get grip. But that might just how the bike is set up (and has 26" wheels)
Sounds a bit daft but I’ve given full sus a go on several occasions and just basically prefer how hardtails ride. Could it be something as simple as that?
This! It took me ages to get used to how a FS rides and for ages I was faster and (mentally if not physically!) more comfortable down familiar trails on a hardtail. I find that the rear is more predictable on a HT because you [i]know[/i] it's going to sketch about whereas on a FS I'm never quite sure if it'll grip or not. All that said, I'm on a 2016 Trance now (for comfort, not speed).
I had a very similar experience. Bought a similar-ish bike to the Smuggler (although longer and taller and 27.5) and well if not the final nail in the coffin of my riding, it was definitely a significant one.
I'm female and 5ft 6in and found the exact same thing: on a straight section I really appreciated how capable and confidence-inspiring the bike was (I'd previously ridden a Mk 2 Soul which I loved and a GT Distortion which was so much fun but knackered) but when it came to turn it, I felt like I was riding a gate. Climbing was a real chore as well and I'd always enjoyed it before.
I did play around with a couple of things but in end sold it and things happened and I never really got back into riding. Three stone later and I really regret buying that bike. I've got a ti hardtail now though and I don't ride that so I can't blame it all on the bike!
Anyhow, if I was to get another, I think go for a downcountry type and short and steep by today's standards. I'd definitely recommend getting rid of the Smuggler. Sounds like it's never going to work and the right new bike might sort everything out before it's too late. I'm the same btw - learn by doing - so while I'm sure you can learn to ride a low, long, slack bike better, it might be better to go for one with more tradition geo. I mean, she's given it a good go.
Good luck with it.
It's interesting reading this, I think maybe it's not worth getting hung up on the "modern-ness" of the bike or the slackness of the HA and perhaps more thinking about what changes it introduced relative to her old HT that might have knocked her cornering back?
It sounds like body positioning, but that's just a general topic, certainly not a specific understanding, the new bike has obviously introduced a change that is upsetting things.
My first thought is "feel" i.e. on her old HT the ability to feel grip was probably a bit better, there was no rear suspension to isolate her from the back tyre, and presumably the front had shorter, stiffer suspension (?) so she got used to where the limits of grip were, and she was able to predict and control the bike better as a result. The new bike has introduced a whole bunch of changes that mean her previous learning no longer correlates and that feeling for grip is more isolated and unfamiliar.
My next thought is wheelbase, presumably the Transition is much longer (fore and aft) than the old bike, and while the Transition is intended to try and get a riders weight more in the middle, in order to weight the front or rear more as you ride it probably requires larger (more exaggerated) weight shifts. a relatively smaller move fore/aft on the shorter HT probably served to get more weight over either tyre on her old HT the axles were closer together and closer to her CoG and the feeling was more "Direct"...
It might be worth measuring the two bikes or just looking up the geo charts to compare and understand the relative differences in wheelbase BB/bar/saddle position, but don't get too hung up on the numbers, the basic point is that the new bike is longer than old bike...
All of these things are of course subconscious or muscle memory related, so a lot of the suggestions so far are either focussed on trying to change the setup and trick her into new habits, adapt the bike to accommodate her old ones, or just train her into new habits. but I think she probably wants to understand what's happening and why rather than relying on someone else's tricks to "hack" better handling without true understanding.
Coaching is always beneficial, but you need to practise in-between, and as you noted she's had time off the bike in the last couple of years so there's always benefit in slowing down and approaching the issue methodically. I think the trick here might be for her to disassemble/deconstruct what she is doing on the bike, is it different or the same between the bikes, and does it need to change or not, and then once she has some ideas on techniques to try, start to consciously practice different approaches to cornering just to see what works and what doesn't and how she might reprogram her muscle memory from there...
My suggestion (take it of leave it) would be that she sessions a local line, ideally on the old HT and the new bike, having the other half video corners of interest (without offering any advice or input), just let her spend a few hours getting in to the groove on the same features on either bike. Your job is simply to document it so she can review it later. I'd also suggest she does some 'drills' on a flat surface just practising cornering related movements and getting used to how the bike handles like the video below:
I quite like Roxy's approach, methodical and she provides understandable explanations for things you might be experiencing/noticing on the bike...
Thanks, all very helpful so far.
Some stuff neither of us had thought of.
It was always my understanding that the reason for women's specific bike was that women can often have longer torsos relative to their leg? But I've also noticed it looks like not many top level female riders are on women specific bikes.
Joebristol - thanks for taking the time to write all that. I'm passing on all the information. Very informative.
Poah - Ive just looked at the bar and stem thing. It looks like from the side, that the line of each end of the bar would go directly through the stem if you were to draw a line. So could be an issue there?
Bars - just looked at her bars, Chromag Fubars. They measure about 775 or 780 end to end.
Tyres - we are both on Michelin Wild enduros. I loves them, she thought they were a vast improvement than the Maxxis that came on the bike.
Her technique could definitely be worked on - especially trying to implement things learnt. I think part of it is that, as she thinks she is now riding like crap, it means theres more time lapsing between rides as she gets frustrated, so theres a bit of a cycle going on there perhaps.
She does really enjoy mountain biking but I'm afraid the current bike or setup is putting her off unless we can fix it.
Could be that she should go back to a Cube hardtail again, or a Hardcore version maybe. Neither of us keep up to date with current trends very much. Mondraker is still considered long and slack?
Thanks so much @thepilot . Really useful as you're the same height and had a similar experience. That's the thing, neither of us want her to stop riding.
She's enjoying her road bike more these days.
Thanks so much @cookeaa , again - stuff we'll take on board and work on. I'll suggest we take both bikes to the bike park next time, and compare. Might help figure out what is going on.
Her hardtail was an XC style Cube but she was shredding enduro type stuff on it, to the amazement of me and others who saw her! 100mm Rock Shox fork, a Reba maybe.
Yeah, more practice definitely needed, but she's definitely in a love hate relationship with the bike, with probably more hate. I think this is part of the issue with not riding enough.
I'm really overwhelmed by all the help!
Yeah, more practice definitely needed, but she’s definitely in a love hate relationship with the bike, with probably more hate. I think this is part of the issue with not riding enough
Instantly that would be the bike being sold... or at the very very least multiple other bikes tried and tested, either as Demo bikes or as overall replacements.
MTBing is supposed to be fun, if it's not fun, then she'll ride less, going into it with her mind already made up she hates the bike before being dragged out and the circle of doom continues.
Bin the bike, buy something she loves.
Has she ever tried riding a 2017 era full sus with what would be considered 'older' geometry?. Or an XC bike with more conservative geometry? Might answer a few questions
"It was always my understanding that the reason for women’s specific bike was that women can often have longer torsos relative to their leg?"
The claim was actually the reverse but it's complete rubbish. People whose genetic heritage is from cold countries tend to have longer torsos for their height and vice versa but men and women average the same limb:torso proportions and vary the same.
One other thought about hardtail vs full-sus bikes - when you corner on a hardtail it gets steeper and thus less stable and turns more quickly/easily. When you corner on a full-sus the angles stay more constant or get slacker (unless you hit the brakes) so you tend to have to tip them over more to get them to turn. And obviously the older bike was steeper anyway. In a straight line slackness has zero downside but more effort is required to make them turn.
This is a great topic - I'm watching with interest. My wife had almost exactly the same experience going from a hardtail into a bargain too-small full sus which she loved. Then she 'upgraded' to a very nice, correctly-sized, full sus which she never totally got on with. It's barely been ridden since (it's probably 10 years old now).
We tried swapping stems, bars, crank length, changing seat position etc. None of it worked, though we never did a formal bike fit.
In my case I'm not convinced her displeasure is totally rational but it really doesn't matter. I don't mean to be disparaging or anything - I wouldn't continue to ride a frame that I wasn't vibing with, even if it ticked all the geometry boxes I thought I needed. IME if you want her to continue riding, just change the frame out ASAP because the clock is ticking.
Is it that the bike is overall/all-round a bit too big and /or a bit too heavy? Some of the comments seem to confirm that.
29er, wide bars, modern enough to be considered long reach. Also a smuggler is not a light bike in any way.
Might not play well with someone who is 5'6"
I had an XL smuggler and loved it until it snapped, but I'm 6'3" and a bit of a unit
@el_boufador quite possibly, it looks like that's maybe it.
@wbo she really liked a 2017 / 18 Nukeproof Mega which she rented years ago, but then the geometry changed. She didn't like them anymore after trying the newer ones.
As someone who has gone from a relatively conservative SC Hightower V1 to a LLS Cotic Jeht i can certainly attest to the idea that it takes quite a bit of adjustment to keep weight forward and "ride the front fork" if you don't, and just lean back you find the front wheel does try and escape and feels light.
Id suggest just getting her to pull herself / lean forward a bit more. If a longer stem helps with that, which i am sure it will, then thats the first thing id start with.