[Closed] When did Shimano get "rubbish"?

IMO they went shit when they released 11-speed. My 10-speed XT/XTR drivetrains were ace, likewise the old XT M785 brakes were the dogs and I wish I never sold the few sets I had on older bikes. I had 11-speed XT for a while and it was turd. I've yet to ride a set of M8000 brakes that were any good. I doubt I'll buy anything Shimano for a while!

XT/SLX isn't a "necessity" build for a kids bike, if SRAM floats your boat more why not simply fit NX to save a few quid? Or was this a used parts build?

But yeah, once you get used to a certain manufacturers way of doing things, the alternative will seem different, you can only really decide if it's worse once he starts using it...

I still miss the black and gold boxes circa 1990 - those were the days!

On the flip side, I have an M9000 XTR setup on my XC bike and my son has an M8000 XT setup on his (albeit with 155mm NX cranks) and both shift flawlessly in any conditions and have required remarkably little maintenance to keep running smoothly. I did have a set of XTR Race brakes swapped under warranty when the master cylinders started to bind (a known issue, apparently), but otherwise it's all been fine and I love the absolute predictability of the overall package.

I recently installed a GX Eagle groupset on another bike and that went on pretty smoothly, although the setup was definitely more fiddly and required far more precise tweaking to get it working perfectly. It's not my bike, so I can't comment on the long-term use, but the shifting didn't feel particularly light compared to the Shimano setup and I can't get away from the robust price tag on the Eagle cassettes which always makes me cringe!

I still think Shimano make better quality kit, but they have been very stubborn and slow to move when it comes to 1x, sticking with their tried and tested setups when the whole world seems to have left them behind. That said, I believe they are rumoured to have a new 1x setup coming in the future and if they did, I'm sure it will be good and almost certainly better value for money than SRAM. Competition will be good for everyone here 🙂

I've never had an issue with it. My 9yo inherited my 11-42 10 speed XT setup - shifter, mech, sunrace cassette and has no issues with it, and he's a bit rubbish on his bike still. Much nicer than his big brothers X7 setup.

The newer 11 speed XT stuff seemed nice the short time I had it before I moved to a new bike with GX (which isn't noticeably different to XT really - I was push push on XT rather than push pull).

I have the same XT/SLX (11spd) combo on my bike and when riding it doesn't feel any different from any shifting I've used in the past 20odd years. (apart from from the brief dual-control period). I read a review of the SLX shifter that said something about it feeling crap compared to XT. I had to check I had an SLX, feels the same to me. Maybe I'm not sensitive enough...

11sp Shimano is easier to set up, stays set up better and is more durable IMO. Not much between Shimano and Sram in feel. Sram have the edge cassette-wise, but fortunately they work with the oh-so-ugly shimano mech & shifter.

I'm perfectly happy with my 11 speed XT setup and M8000 brakes, it's just as good as my older 10 speed XT stuff on my other bike.

It's not rubbish imo but I agree with lawman up the page, they lost their way for me when they went 11 speed. My 10 speed XT/Saint setup on the fatbike is absolutely superb, love it, the Saint shifter might never be beat. But the 11 speed equivalent basically just added weight and less nice lever feel. The cranks introduced a bullshit new BCD for no reason, and the brakes are still a bit unreliable.

Deore is awesome imo purely on value, but the higher end sets just don't add enough. And SRAM 11 and 12 speed drivetrain stuff just absolutely destroys Shimano, they're not even in the same fight- it's like they saw GX Eagle and just went, nah, we can't rival that so we might as well just stay in bed.

Absolute high point is still my 9sp grey/blue XTR shifters and rapid rise rear mech.

Brakes are powerful, but I'm fed up of the failure rate.

My 11sp SLX is good, but agree about the hole in the shifter, and you couldn't tell if the cassette was SLX or Sunrace, where in the past I could tell I was on a good shimano and chain*

*probably around 2005...

Easy answer: stick to 8 speed 😀

And when did "get" start to mean "become"?

i might have imagined it but i thought i read somewhere you could adjust the clutch to get a lighter shift?

and, err, just because i answer questions a lot at work - you sure the cable is ok?....

Shimano XT M8000 rear mech clutch is serviceable & adjustable, I don't think SRAMs are.

Never understand people saying the shifting is heavy with Shimano clutch engaged.

Not once have I thought it was anything like heavy.

Have Shimano 10 speed deore clutch mech on my hybrid and the clutch is adjustable, you need to remove the clutch cover to do so

Currently have Sram GX and XO on my two mtb's

My previous mtb had Shimano XT M8000 and after 8 months i had enough of it, much prefer the feel of Sram's shifting and braking

The only thing i do like about Shimano is the ability to push or pull the shifter to change gear where as Sram is push push

Never understand people saying the shifting is heavy with Shimano clutch engaged.

All three of my clutch mechs are heavy (including the brand new one). You can feel the difference when the clutch is off. On multiple shifts I can feel as the cage moves forward (resistance changes).

It does feel as though Shimano are now getting their direction from marketing people who work out what's needed by doing focus groups, or trying out the marketing theory they learnt in college, rather than going out and riding bikes and talking to other riders.

The notable exception is the electronic shifting. Maybe that was done despite the marketing department, rather than because of it.

Drivetrain stuff from Shimano: still have XT on one bike (without any problems) but on all others Deore. When I rebuild older mtb bikes I use Deore. I love this drivetrain stuff. Shifter work all very good and last year and the Clutch on the rear mech simply works great.

Shimano BB: I use Shimano SAINT BB. One of the few BB designs which last a bit...

Hubs: very possible that I don't know all the Shimano designs for hubs. But the XT hubs - front and rear are crap. If you are jumping they loosen up. Seals are bad. Freehub is bad.

Shimano brakes: Deore and XT are both excellent. Best bang for the buck is Deore again.

If the function and the price tag is o.k. I use it. I do lots and lots of mud biking and need replacement parts quite often. "Looks" and "haptics" and "weight" no issue for me.

And: still love 2x10 ...

Now it looks like a cobbled together prototype particularly with the ugly clutch “box” stuck on it.

I'm not sure you can accuse Shimano of this compared to SRAM.

I think a lot of the comments on heavy shifting depend on what you're used to. If you used Shimano 9 speed, it tended to have very lightweight, very low feedback shifting, I hated it but many people liked it. Whereas if you used SRAM 9 speed, it was heavier and clankier, and certainly wasn't as quality a product but I much preferred the feel. And so did Shimano apparently because they made their better 10 speed stuff feel almost exactly like 9 speed X9. Hence Saint 10 speed being the best shifter ever- SRAM bolt-action chunk chunk and cable throw, with Shimano build quality and precision.But for whatever reason that's not carried over into the 11 speed era.

@oldnpastit, Shimano do their market research with OEMs not end users- they've learned that if you can sell Trek 10000 forks with 15mm axles (for example) it doesn't matter if it's a shitty standard, it'll run right over individual consumers buying 20mm because it's better. They can sell their second rate 11 speed on price and marketability and momentum to bike companies even though they struggle to sell it to punters on quality.

@teethgrinder, my Shimano 11 speed XT levers look really nice but they clash together when you shift. The equivalent GX looks cheaper but it works better.

I have always run Shimano mainly due to every competitor in my price range, from Suntour, Sachs and campag through to SRAM never being as good imo. I have tried modern, posh SRAM and came away underwhelmed to say the least.

Currently have two modern bikes both running predominantly SLX 11sp. It’s great in a familiar Shimano way and does it’s job well. Brakes are Deore and XT, both of which have plenty of power and have been faultless although I just removed the XT in preparation for some Hope.

Shimano have also made the greatest gear set ever with rapid rise XTR. How I wish they did a modern version using the same beautiful shifters.

Oh, and never noticed a difference between clutch on or off during shifting. Certainly do when removing the wheel though!

I have sram on a few of my Trek bikes which they came with and its ok but never as smooth as some of my Shimano ones and the rear mechs are the most ugliest things I have ever seen hay ho to expensive to change them around the best sram I have is the 12speed now that works better.

Adjust the clutch (XT has external adjustment) so it's just a touch more resistant when on than off. I've done it to all my 1x10 bodges, they work like clockwork.

Quite ironic the unsupported 10 speed bodge with Sunrace cassette is probably the best Shimano setup at the moment, bar the Sram freehub Shimano mixer setup which is the best!  cheap too, #makeshimanogreatagain

Never had a problem with the clutch - to the point I don't bother with it & wouldn't buy a clutch mech now anyway. Not unless I was riding pedally DH or XC style enduro. Never dropped a chain racing XC either. Chain guard? Way cheaper & doesn't affect the indexing - that is if your 1x.

I think clutch mechs are a bit of a con..

Shimano XT M8000 rear mech clutch is serviceable & adjustable

Yup, just back it off a bit. Sram is agricultural and clunky in comparison. NX in particular is very sensitive to adjustment and alignment.

Im a huge saint shifter, zee fr mech, 10spd xt cassette for kids builds. Bullet proof and easy shifting with the saint lever.

42t and radr if you need the climbing gear.

Don't want to agree with this but do.

Been reluctantly running sram 11spd for a few years and its been great. Back on shimano over winter for my rigid bike and it's heavy to shift, loses its indexing and the crank arms are tatered, cosmetically. Gloss for crank arms seriously?

Shifting is agricultural too. XT.

Down but not out. Yet.

Wanted to hate sram, but my 11 speed experience says it's way better than Shimano.

Ghost shifting in the rough (xtr and xt) and sloppy mech pivots in no time (xt).

Also, being able to turn the clutch on and off, why? To make it easier to get the wheel out? Possibly but srams simple cage lock is a far better solution anyway.

SRAM design can only work that way when you can't / don't have an FD. I know some see 1x as essential on MTBs and hate FDs and I've ridden 1x on and off for a long time, but I'm happy that Shimano kit works with a double up front for other uses, all-road bikes etc.

Both of my bikes have 11 speed XT drivetrains and I'm extremely happy with them.  Gears shift cleanly and I like Shimano's ergonomics and reliability.

I find that SRAM drivetrains start to feel baggy quickly and they still haven't got the hang of making jockey wheel bearings.

Shimano's problem is the dominance of SRAM in the OE market and the rather conservative approach to product development.

I've only had one "modern" MTB, it's got XT on it from a few years ago. I like the positive click on the gears, brakes could do with being a bit more positive.

I have Shimano 105 hydro STIs on my cross bike. They are awesome.

What am I missing with SRAM?

I don't have an issue with 11pd Shimano XT M8000. I used to be SRAM only (9spd), which IMO was better than Shinamo 9spd.

The thing I dislike most about Shimano groupsets is the<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> chainsets. Shimano used to make great cranks and good chain rings. The silly bolt pattern of the new stuff is really off-putting. At least they still offer 3x chainsets if you can find them (or the chainrings for them).

there was a definite moment in the xtr spd pedal, it went from the best most reliable "fit and forget" pedal around to the worst piece of shit imaginable in a single iteration. It's a completely different story on the road side of things only a single world tour pro team uses sram and a few campag die hards but otherwise a sea of shimano

I do get the annoyance at the chainring bolt pattern.  I've reverted to previous generation XT cranks on my main bike so that I can use a Hope 30T chainring.

I cannot tell any difference between these and brand new XT cranks via my feet, so I'm quite happy with the old(er) cranks.  I've not been shy in knocking SRAM for their adoption of pointless new standards, so I agree that the new chainring pattern on Shimano cranks smacks of the same.

I don't think they are rubbish.

Although even I, as a luddite that only replaces stuff that's worn out, or at least with one part being worn out as an excuse, am going 1x - but then again I'm sticking with Shimano as I can't stretch to an XD driver and big range cassette.

The e-thirteen cassette going down to 9T with shimano mechs and somebody else's narrow wide chainring seems like the best solution to me - but not got the cash for that cassette atm. I guess this does show where Shimano is missing a trick, particularly as they have groupsets that go down to 9T but just not for MTBs, but then they're keeping hub compatibility which is good for me for now!

I've always found that the older stuff tends to work better from Shimano, SRAM does seem a lot more fussy and a bit less tolerant of wear and tear, so shimano shifters and mechs for me. Plus the dual release is good even if I usually use it push/push.

I think we're in one of Shimano's lower periods, they tend to go through cycles in making great stuff and then simply lacking innovation and churning it out. I think the interesting question is what they'll do about freehubs since I doubt anyone will be particularly interested in another standard popping up, but they need to get somewhere nearer to thte level of Sram cassettes.

It also feels like XT has become a bit low-rent, more of an SLX and there's a fair gap to XTR in terms of price and quality. I run an XTR shifter and chainset with an XT rear mech and Sram 1175 cassette and performance is great, but I wouldn't normally be an XTR man, SLX/Zee was about my level when it comes to drivetrain that wears out and gets knocked about.

They just seem ultra-conservative.
Their reluctance on 1x has cost them dearly.

I was very surprised to see the new YT bikes all move to Shimano - Seemed like a compromise with that e13 cassette.

Now I'm thinking about it, I'm always amazed about SRAM cranksets - they fit with a combination of a cheap wavey washer, some grease and by tightening a bolt up to massive torque like a square taper crankset. And if there's play, you're told to add more grease and tighten it up harder. And then there's the "mud gap" down by the bottom bracket, almost asking to be filled with grit. It's perhaps no wonder that GXP BBs have such a short shelf life.

A friend has a YT with an eThirteen crankset and on the two times he's had to service the BB, he's had to cut it off with an angle grinder and get a new one under warranty from YT because it was completely seized on despite it being properly fitted and greased each time.

I know these are perhaps isolated examples, but the Shimano Hollowtech II has always seemed a cracking piece of design, with a simple pre-load adjustment and low torque fasteners. If I had one wish it would be that the pre-load didn't need a special tool so it could be setup on the trailside, but otherwise it's a really good piece of engineering. I removed my M9000 crankset last night for the first time in a year and was able to service it with one special tool (preload tool), a single allen key and a couple of gentle taps from a plastic hammer to get it past the BB bearings. Beautiful.

Shimano's engineering has always been very good - it's their product decisions that are more questionable, particularly around 1x as others have mentioned. I suspect we'll see a change in this in the near future with a new freehub design to go with it...

I know these are perhaps isolated examples, but the Shimano Hollowtech II has always seemed a cracking piece of design, with a simple pre-load adjustment and low torque fasteners.

^This.  I'm extremely impressed with the ability of Shimano cranks to be easily removed and serviced compared to my experiences with RaceFace and SRAM.

I really like Shimano's 10 speed stuff and the rear 12mm QRs are nice. HT2 cranks are jolly good too. 15mm axles can GRTF though.

edit- the HT2 BBs are great as well, I've had the same bum basic one on various frames over the last couple of years and it's still going strong. Compare that to going through three or four GXP BBs in as many months.

Im running 10spd shimano on 3 mtbs.

1 is 2x10, the others 1x10 a mixture of slx xt and dura ace bar end.

all works perfectly, I haven’t ridden any sram equipped bikes to compare, but I can’t imagine they would be better, my shimano stuff just works.

we are running slx, xt and old deore brakes too, they all work perfectly.

ive used shimano exclusively since xt went 7spd in 1991, all my bikes have worked perfectly, any issues have been worn components or sticky cable etc.

I accept, this is anecdotal, also, i am a competent mechanic, which skews the result.

maybe ive just been lucky too.

we also run 3 road bikes, see above for my experience with those, although they’re not under the same pressure with dirt etc.

I think 9 speed was a sweet spot. Still is, the new Sora feels fantastic.

Might try SRAM next, to give 1* ago, but instinct tells me to try Deore instead.

Don't trust the brakes. Wish I'd stuck with Hope. Wife's are 10 years old and work like new.

I've never used SRAM (or Campag on the road) so can't compare the two but I've had no problems beyond things wearing out with any of my Shimano drive trains. I replaced the XT rear mech on the Solaris last year but by then it had done over 8000km in three years in all sorts of conditions, there was still very little play in it.

I recently fitted an 11spd XT rear mech on a FS bike but since I've only done about 100km on it it's way too early to draw any conclusions. I did consider SRAM but it was very much going to be a leap in the dark for me so I decided to stick with Shimano.

I suppose you get used to what you use and adjust to any foibles.

9-speed was the turning point. My first decent bike had 8-speed XT drivetrain. Shifted absolutely perfectly. Next bike had 9-speed. Worked ok, but not the same. The original 4-pot XT disk brakes were brilliant too.

I've got Shimano 10spd SLX (M675 stuff) with Sunrace cassette and have had zero issues with it, has required less adjustment than my 10spd SRAM stuff (OK so it's lower end SRAM X7 etc.).

The Shimano BB has also outlasted the 2 SRAM one's I've installed.

I have an 11spd XT set up sitting in a box at home and can't decide whether to fit it or not.

Agree with daern re cranksets. I've had to saw a seized RaceFace crank off before. It was no doubt a very pretty thing, but Shimano HTII just works. Any aftermaket cranks I buy have been and will be Shimano. And I've recommended to other people and no-one has come back saying 'oi this crank is borked'!

Current bike came with a RF and I don' like it. No sir. Apart from the direct mount single ring, which is nice.

Had yesterday some wonderful bike hours on my Shimano equipped bike...- just fantastic! SRAM might have been the same?

Possible.

Shimano BB: only get the SAINT version to survive (a bit longer). And yes - the Hollowtech II design is great. But still waiting for a complete trouble free BB...

@DezB - I fitted a RaceFace Aeffect crank to my fat bike because I wanted a 28T oval chainring and that was the only way I could get it at the time (might be different now). No problems so far but it's not a high mileage bike. I've also fitted an Aeffect crankset to my FS which will be a high mileage bike so we'll see how it goes.

The one crankset I'm not sure of is the SRAM fitted to my commuter with the frankly stupid tapered spindle (well it's not tapered but one end is 24mm diameter and the other 22mm) so I've got the SRAM GXP bottom bracket on there with the associated poor lifetime.

Shimano 10 spd XT (or XTR) - most reliable shifting I've ever used. Very resilient to skipping even with a drive train full of gritty peak district mud honking up steep climbs out the saddle. Shimano 11 speed haven't tried it yet but SRAM 11 spd GX is lacking in this resilience - also I snapped a tooth off the cassette - extra range is nice though. Don't care so much about the 'feel' of the shift - more that the thing actually changes gear successfully and then stays in it!

I would like it if the designers from both companies focused on getting the reliability back with the newer large 1x ranges (and at a decent pricepoint!) rather than adding more and more speeds. I think 10 speed is actually plenty across 10 to 42t range. Don't really think more than 10 to 42t is something I really need in terms of Range.

SRAM Guide brakes - in my experinece they're not great. Wasn't really happy with the vague feel of them, poor pad life, no pads available that work well in the wet. Then they did the thing where they sieze on in the warm weather. Glad I wasn't too far from home when that happened! Not worht the cost of fixing them so in the bin they went. Replaced with the latest SLX's which have been great so far. Overall had good 2 to 3 years of heavy use out of every set of Shimano brakes I've owned - couple of sets I've had to bleed in that time frame but they worked great again after that. Sent back one set of older style SLX's that didn't work - replaced under warranty and the replacments worked great.

Cranks - Shimano - changing to that weird BCD was stupid. Will never buy a set of shimano cranks with that BCD. Its dumb! I use RaceFace cranks at the moment and old style shimano on another bike. both fine!

But still waiting for a complete trouble free BB…

If you use it, I don't think there's any such thing, but my XC bike's BB93 has done nearly two years and 2000 miles of riding in some pretty varied conditions. It's not a summer bike, just ridden when dry - it gets used in all conditions. For a £25 part, I think that's pretty reasonable and as it only takes 30 minutes to swap it, I would say that's about as close to maintenance free as I'm going to get with the sort of riding I do.

I've just done a straight replacement and if this one does the same time / mileage, I'll be content:

(and yes, this still shifted pretty much perfectly right to the end of the event!)

Shimano XT M8000 rear mech clutch is serviceable & adjustable

i never knew that.. every day is a school day.

10 Speed XT mech + saint shifter with Sunrace Cassette for the win..

I wandered between the 2 for a while and I've been mostly SRAM for the last 6 years, for me it does just work, BB's were solved by using the Hope ones, something I ended up doing when I was running Shimano as they were just crap back then, I was convinced of the cheapness/VFM of XT brakes but they all turned out to be the crap ones with the double pull requirement. They all ended up in the bin and I'm back on Hope.

I had a 10sp XT drivetrain which was perfectly functional, nothing more, the Ispec stuff just meant I could never get the controls sitting how I wanted them though and it was all bulky and harder to fit than any SRAM.

For many people Shimano is a default due to it being good when SRAM were poor, both do well now however the innovation from Shimano is setting them way back. Porky cassettes, smaller ranges, distrust of 1x etc,

The think that kept me SRAM was the level of support, the SRAM vs Shimano thread with some industry perspectives highlighted the differences I've seen from the side lines, SRAM want the shops to do well, want their products sold and known about then supported. Shimano just want a sale.

At this point Shimano would need to do something fairly spectacular to get my cash. For other people they will just default there, the launch of the dropper was met with much whooping that it would be the best thing as shimano will have refined it etc. anyone buy one? It does seem that shimano has a low bar/it was cheap level of satisfaction required whereas SRAM was expected to do way more. The way people have completely missed the GX range when complaining about pricing is classic too.

SRAM have brought a dropper to the masses, 1x to every price point, match maker, narrow wide, direct mount chain rings what have Shimano done in the same time?

But still waiting for a complete trouble free BB…

The new XT ones, despite the frustrating change in tool size, seem to last a lot longer. I mean, I've only got a sample size of 1 so far, but that's been going 18 months including two winters and I used to pretty consistently get through two a year on the same bike. Don't think I've ever had a BB last longer than a year before. Friend of mine has found similar.

Just chucked one on the singlespeed so I'll see how that does.

What have Shimano done in the same time?

Continue to make solid drivetrain, braking and wheel components for the overwhelming majority of riding categories and end users, while offering choices and options for riders with different needs/preferences.

<div class="bbp-reply-content">

MrLebowski wrote,

"Never had a problem with the clutch – to the point I don’t bother with it & wouldn’t buy a clutch mech now anyway. Not unless I was riding pedally DH or XC style enduro. Never dropped a chain racing XC either. Chain guard? Way cheaper & doesn’t affect the indexing – that is if your 1x."

Clutch doesn't do that much for chain retention tbh, it's the narrow/wide rings that came along at the same time that do the job. Clutch just improves control a wee bit and cuts flap and noise, which is still worthy

</div>

I only use Shimano . It just works . No clutch either .

The new XT ones, despite the frustrating change in tool size, seem to last a lot longer. I mean, I’ve only got a sample size of 1 so far, but that’s been going 18 months including two winters and I used to pretty consistently get through two a year on the same bike. Don’t think I’ve ever had a BB last longer than a year before. Friend of mine has found similar.

Same experience here. M8000 BBs doing well, current BB of choice.

I’ve always been a loyal user of Shimano drivetrain but recently have been thinking about switching to SRAM after a series of failures including...

- XTR M9000 shifter - cable twice came off the cam and jammed inside the housing under excessive cable tension (caused by a crash the first time) ...managed to fix this both times by the trail side.

- XTR M9020 rear mechs - I am on my 3rd mech and both previous have failed in the same way (fortunately replaced under warranty).  The clutch starts sticking so the mech stays in the forward position when shifting from gear 1 and doesn’t take up the slack in the chain.  This happens regardless of adjustment to the clutch and after I have taken it apart and thoroughly cleaned it.  I think this may be down to excessive cleaning and possible corrosion ...but would be interested to hear if anyone else has experienced this?

- XTR M9020 crank - Bent (twisted) the drive side crank arm during a pedal strike ...it was a fairly solid strike but I wasn’t travelling particularly fast and wasn’t expecting that kind of damage.  The Burgtec pedal only had a little superficial damage and still spun true.

I still prefer the way Shimano shifts to SRAM (marginally) but I’ve not been particularly impressed with the reliability / durability.

so let me get this straight, you've had 3 failures probably due to user problems cable tension, pedal strike and too much cleaning, and this is shimano's problem?

Alrighty then...

I'm not a fan of SRAM cranks, and brakes, but TBH, i've pretty much always mixed and matched my drive trains with SRAM cassettes and chains and shimano mechs and shifters...Always seemed to work well enough. I like that you can adjust the clutch on the mech, You'd have to work very hard to make me swap my Saint brakes when anything remotely SRAM-like, all the various iterations of Guide are quite frankly; gash. Shimano BB are sorted, and the cranks are bullet proof. I'm not a component destroyer so I'm happy to buy XTR and it'll last a good 5-6 years before I even need to think about it. Put me in the Shimano column

he clutch starts sticking so the mech stays in the forward position when shifting from gear 1

I think this may be down to excessive cleaning and possible corrosion

Yes to both. I forgot about this, but I've also had this on an M9020 and it's caused by corrosion of the internal needle bearings inside the "stabiliser unit" (aka clutch), probably from water ingress from excessive, enthusiastic cleaning. You can strip, clean and regrease them which helps, but once they start doing this. it's on its way out. You'll need two sorts of lubrication to do this: 1) a light machine oil for the needle bearings, 2) lithium grease for the clutch itself.

If it happens again (and you can't warranty), it's a cheap and easy to replace part available from SJS here:
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-spares/shimano-xtr-rdm9000-stabilizer-unit-y5pv98040/

I've done this on my mech and it's been fine ever since. I also added more thick grease around the water ingress points to extend the life and so far, so good.

We've not talked about availability of spare parts, but I've always loved that you can get service parts for Shimano kit (at least, the higher end stuff). Is this the same with SRAM? I'd be interested to hear other people's experiences here.

so let me get this straight, you’ve had 3 failures probably due to user problems cable tension, pedal strike and too much cleaning, and this is shimano’s problem?

He raises a fair point about general robustness. Having a rock strike write off an expensive crankset would probably annoy any of us. The cable issue I can't comment on, but I've never had it in several years of using XTR kit.

There's no question in my mind, however, that XTR is less robust than the lower ranges. But that's what you get if you chase the low weight race kit - it's not designed to be bashed off rocks every Saturday, it's designed to work as well a it can in a race situation, at the lowest possible weight and this can mean compromises. I'm not being a Shimano apologist here, but just setting some expectations that if you choose XTR you should go into it with your eyes (and wallet) open.

 But that’s what you get if you chase the low weight race kit – it’s not designed to be bashed off rocks every Saturday, it’s designed to work as well a it can in a race situation, at the lowest possible weight and this can mean compromises. I’m not being a Shimano apologist here, but just setting some expectations that if you choose XTR you should go into it with your eyes (and wallet) open.

Which is why shimano (once upon a time) announced that XTR would become limited availability for pros/elites/race teams. As the weekend warrior with his bling XTR equipped trailbike was breaking too much and affecting the reputation (and doubtless shimanos warranty figures) of XTR.

The industry uproar (OK, more like grumbling) is essentially why we now have XTR trail and XTR Race (Should that be XTT and XTR?)

I’ve used Shimano 7/8/9/10/11 speed across mtb and 8/9/10/11 speed on road bikes and I’ll never use anything else. Briefly had sram on a codeine worked ok but wear was very fast !

As mentioned only issues have been dirty cables/adjustments etc 🙂

It's not.

- You can change a gear cable without taking the top off the shifter, who ever came up with that idea wants certifying.

- The jockey actually last.

- Granted the finish on the cranks isn't the best, but they're very good other than that.

- Complaining about a proprietary BCD is counterintuitive when SRAM have their own proprietary ring mounting system.

- The cassettes don't cost as much as a half decent BSO, yeah they're heavier.

– The cassettes don’t cost as much as a half decent BSO, yeah they’re heavier.

Usual request for like for like comparison...

XT/SLX vs NX/GX

XTR vs X01

No Shimano XX equivalent...

– Complaining about a proprietary BCD is counterintuitive when SRAM have their own proprietary ring mounting system.

You mean direct mount? A really nice and simple idea that actually improves things and allows way more rings to be fitted to a set of cranks?

Usual request for like for like comparison…

It's difficult when Shimano don't offer anything close to Eagle, so like for like isn't really possible, but, an X01 Eagle Cassette is £264 (Wiggle), vs XTR 11-speed at £135 (Evans). The SRAM list price is more or less double the Shimano one too.

I know that you get a lot more metal for the SRAM cassette (more carbon and titanium in the Shimano one though 🙂 ) but you can't get around the fact that the consumable elements of Eagle are universally more expensive than those of Shimano. It's not like for like, but I'd be confident that if Shimano sort their 1x setup out properly, they'll more or less force SRAM to get this pricing back into the real world.

It’s difficult when Shimano don’t offer anything close to Eagle, so like for like isn’t really possible, but, an X01 Eagle Cassette is £264 (Wiggle), vs XTR 11-speed at £135 (Evans). The SRAM list price is more or less double the Shimano one too.

You could just compare the 11sp offerings, you know like for like, you certainly get a lot more metal on your XT cassette than anything equivalent.

My xtr /sram/ kmc 11 speed is flawless! take the best of all of them

but I’d be confident that if Shimano sort their 1x setup out properly, they’ll more or less force SRAM to get this pricing back into the real world.

But they haven't, and instead are making space for other companies, like Sunrace. Perhaps no bad thing, but it's exactly what this thread is about: Shimano seem to be asleep at the wheel.

You could just compare the 11sp offerings

I could have (and, indeed, considered it), but I didn't think that was the point here. The fact is that people are heavily focused on SRAM's "big range" 1x offerings and it's obvious that Shimano don't have anything that's even close to this today. I suppose the point I was making was that if noone provides competition, there will be nothing to peg the prices down and the result is cassettes that cost the price of a Halfords bike.

Personally, I think the sooner Shimano get their 1x offering in order (and I don't mean a bigger version of their god-awful big range cassettes they do today), the better it will be for everyone, including those who prefer SRAM because there's no way they'll be able to keep charging these prices when there's a real alternative available.

These companies are only as good as their last groupset and if Shimano have been late to the market, it'll all be quickly forgotten if (when?) they finally come good. And I wouldn't bet against them...

Our mtb biking group: doubt that the guys with the SRAM 1x12 would go again with this super-sensitive drivetrain. SRAM 1x11 might be great - but SRAM 1x12 means 1 day mud biking and 1 hour work to get the thing working again. The SRAM 1x11 or Shimano bikers already drink beer in this time...

12sp eagle group

https://www.merlincycles.com/sram-gx-eagle-boost-groupset-12-speed-107871.html?utm_campaign=googlebase-GB&utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=shopping&utm_term=MTB+Groupsets&gclid=Cj0KCQjwy9LVBRDOARIsAGqoVnvhKFn8ZB0rrQGZAKCP7PIkxf80RHCb3zvh2ARtDLmW4SozyfUIGwUaAvwNEALw_wcB

£340

11sp XT

https://www.evanscycles.com/shimano-xt-m8000-1-x-11-transmission-groupset-i-spec-b-32t-11-42-EV275659?lsft=esvt:55134-GOUKE2409948,esvq:,esvadt:999999-0-1223922-1,esvcrea:189741046303,esvplace:,esvd:c,esvtg:aud-302411051660:pla-298589298133,esvo:EV275659-170-BLK,esvaid:50080&esvt=55134-GOUKE2409948&esvq=&esvadt=999999-0-1223922-1&esvcrea=189741046303&esvplace=&esvd=c&esvtg=aud-302411051660:pla-298589298133&esvo=EV275659-170-BLK&esvaid=50080&gclid=Cj0KCQjwy9LVBRDOARIsAGqoVnuSVaemcNW5X9cvy62zmAn6366MdK2m1ccu4HFKzhnd-ehch3aka0MaAr5hEALw_wcB

£300

Which one is unrealistic?

I could have (and, indeed, considered it), but I didn’t think that was the point here. The fact is that people are heavily focused on SRAM’s “big range” 1x offerings and it’s obvious that Shimano don’t have anything that’s even close to this today. I suppose the point I was making was that if noone provides competition, there will be nothing to peg the prices down and the result is cassettes that cost the price of a Halfords bike.

I know it helps make the point but even the 12sp is coming right down, if you only look at XX you might miss the rest of the prices, like comparing XTR to a BSO

If I was buying a bike and it had SRAM kit rather than Shimano, would it be a deal breaker?

Hmmm,

Nah!

I'd see how it went and when things wore out I'd consider how they performed and if there had been no continuous niggles I'd probably just replace like with like.

As for the feel of shifting gear - the only shifter I've noticed being any different from any other was the front Sora shifter on my commuter which felt decidedly "clunky". All rear shifters and mechs have felt the same providing I eased off when shifting and then let the pins and ramps on the cassette do their thing.

Thanks for the info daern I’ll give that a try.  Agree with what you say regarding XTR and to be fair to Shimano they have replaced 2 mechs under warranty (it’s 3 years on XTR kit) with no quibbles but slow turn around.  I don’t expect stuff to last forever especially when I clean it after every ride (no pressure washer!) but these mechs do seem to be susceptible to this ...must try and reign in my enthusiastic cleaning 🙂  The crank failure was disappointing but as you say they are light and you can only expect so much.  As I said the shifter issue was caused by an OTB crash the first time and I think the cable got caught on something in the process.  The second time it happened was just shifting into first ...maybe a little too much cable tension before the mech hit the limit stop but suspect some internal damage after the first failure made it more prone.

Just for the hell of it, I thought I'd do a quick search for consumable items to compare. In fact, I'm surprised that the prices are actually pretty close across the board (apart from the cassette, of course):

SRAM GX Eagle 10-50 Cassette: £132
Shimano XT M8000 11-42 Cassette: £57

SRAM GX Eagle 12-speed chain: £20
Shimano XT 11sp chain: £26

SRAM GX Eagle Rear Mech: £75
Shimano XT Shadow+ rear mech: £54

SRAM GX Direct Mount chainring: £68
Shimano M8000 Chainring: £50

(I didn't compare any after-market, off-brand stuff. I'll leave this as an exercise for the reader)

It must be said that Shimano appear to have borrowed Subaru's "ugly stick" when it came to the 11-42 cassette - a perfect example of a bodged answer if ever there was one, so although the GX Eagle cassette is a whole load more cash, you do at least get something for it.

Please don't think I'm on a Shimano fanboy (the last two groupsets I installed for other people were actually both GX Eagle!), but I do strongly believe that Shimano are actually the better product engineers out of the two companies. It just appears that someone in their upper-eschelons has decided that 1x sucks and the whole company is following that line with the result that their product offering is compromised as a result.

To broaden this discussion slightly, though, I have SRAM and Shimano on various road bikes, and in this there is simply no comparison between the two - Shimano are head, shoulders and most of their torso ahead of SRAM on the road, with the possible exception of the very high end Red / eTap stuff, where SRAM have a great USP.

and the 11sp 11-42 Shimano equivalent  http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/sram-pg1130-mtb-11-speed-cassette/rp-prod150696

was £54, still why not compare the 11sp like for like stuff 😉

Because Shimano are putting their wide range stuff up against SRAM's 12-speed in the market and they have no equivalent. If you were using that argument, SRAM could just charge what they like as there would be no reason for them to do otherwise.

I've had a couple of friends specifically put off from Eagle because of the price of cassettes (which get ground down pretty quickly round here!) and when they decided on 11-speed, they went back to Shimano rather than SRAM because the USP had gone and they also considered Shimano's offering superior, albeit with Sunrace cassette's IIRC.

See it looks more like the cassette comparison is used to perpetuate the "expensive" line when the 11sp stuff is looking competitive.

Do the 12sp steel cassettes get worn down quickly or other ones? I got more life out of my 11sp GX than any other one for a long time.

If you were using that argument, SRAM could just charge what they like as there would be no reason for them to do otherwise.

All I'm suggesting is where there are direct comparisons available use them for comparison. The SRAM 10sp stuff is way better value than an XTR11sp but the comparison is pointless.Yes eagle is expensive to a point but for a high end groupset offering way more than anything shimano are i'd expect it to cost more. The well established 11sp stuff is offering a better range at a competitive price point with a lower weight.