[Closed] Wheelbuilding. From scratch.

Not that I have heard of. Used the Musson book for 3 builds and old wheelset strip and re-hub. My first set of wheels were carbon.

Might give this a look, currently quoted £120 for building a wheelset. Not sure if that’s god value or not ?

Depends if that is just labour and who the wheel builder is.

Or you could just get an old wheel, carefully note how it's put together, then disassemble it and reassemble it a few times. (use new nipples)

Once you've done that you're halfway to having the knowledge you need, thereafter it's skill.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html is a decent alternative (haven't read the Musson book, so don't know what that's like). Personally I have a hard copy of Brandt's definitive "The Bicycle Wheel" which is what I use though, and that also appears to be available as a PDF (I'm not sure of the legality, but here's a link

)

+1 for Roger Mussons book Wheelpro.

I've built loads of wheels using it. 10? None have broken, had broken spokes, or needed more attention.

It's a simple process. Therapeutic too.

I love building wheels, as above really therapeutic. I've always used the bikemagic instructions but they are hard to find now..

This is thems, looks like all the photos have gone tho

https://bikemagic.com/how-to/mountain-bike-maintenance/build-your-own-wheels.html

https://bikemagic.com/how-to/mountain-bike-maintenance/wheel-truing-basics.html

Might give this a look, currently quoted £120 for building a wheelset. Not sure if that’s god value or not ?

I think most places charge about £20 for the labour don't they? Or am I well wide of the mark?

I'd replaced spokes and trued wheels for donkeys years and then via a cytech course learnt how to build completely. Love doing it and not had any issues on ones I've done. The books and links above are handy when starting off to learn lacing patterns, working out spoke length, tensions and dishing etc It does then obviously become easier with practice/experience so go for it, it's rewarding and I find a good thing to tackle SAD on dark winter evenings.

Define "better" 😉

If you want to just get started as easily as possible, you can read less than half of Sheldon's page and crack on. It's what I did, and it's served me well over the years.

I've no doubt Roger's book has more information in it and is "better". It's just that unless you're building for relatively exceptional demands, you'll almost certainly only need to know the core stuff; you can pick up the finer details much later, or by experience alone, if you ever find the need.

So you needn't feel it's "better" to digest an entire book in order to build a decent wheel.

Firstly, £120 for a wheel build is pretty steep, assuming you're being charged £1/spoke for some pretty chi-chi spokes? I wouldn't expect to pay more than 50p/spoke for regular double-butted. Normal rate is £25-30/wheel unless you've got some ultra-light, low-spoke count rims?

Best thing is to copy an existing wheel i.e. spoke count / crossings and to learn how to lace a wheel. As Epicyclo/Brian says, taking an old wheel apart and rebuilding it is a great way to get a 'feel' of how it comes together. You don't even need a wheel jig - simply an old pair of forks / frame and some cable ties. The key part is being methodical e.g. how many turns of a spoke key produce the desired effect at what stage of the build process - as the build progresses, adjustments get smaller and smaller.

Start off on a 32 hole / 3-cross builds rather than a 16-spoke, bladed spoke carbon rim job!

Interesting stuff. This is something I've thought about for this year.

Would it be daft to consider doing the assembly myself, and then asking a LBS to do the final tension/true? Am I likely to be laughed out the building for this? Would seem like a good way to save a bit of money, and learn a bit, but without the risk of death that me doing the whole build would present?
Obviously I wouldn't expect the truing place to take any responsibility for my cock ups (which could present an issue in itself).
Would mean I could build some nice lightish trail wheels using something like Novatechs for a reasonable price.

I've done a couple of cheap deore hubbed builds, via the Sheldon page on't internetsweb but TBH, it's hard to save much money buying parts separately and once you take into account the reasonably specialist tools and your time (although that's a personal decision obvs)

Got Mavic factory rims now that haven't need trueing or rebuilding, happy days!

I was quoted £64 for the spokes (@£1each) then £30 per wheel to have them built?
I really have not got the time to build them myself so will have to stump up the dosh.

Friends got me a nice truing stand for a birthday. Got the Musson book and bought the bits and loved it.

My first set were perfectly usable but not especially true or evenly tensioned. Second set have been brilliant and I think as good as I’d get from someone who actually knows what they’re doing 🙂

I love it and will probably never buy a built set again.

I’ve not found it to be cheaper than buying factory wheelsets or from a shop/pro though.

B

Is it the Musson book that goes into building a simple truing stand too, or is that Sheldon?

Interested in this more out of DIY curiosity than anything. Under no illusions it will be better or cheaper than getting someone else to build wheels for me.

Under no illusions it will be better or cheaper than getting someone else to build wheels for me.

While not cheaper, it gives you complete freedom. And, personally, the reason I started building my own was repeated disappointment in the build quality of wheels that other people had built. I had plenty of trouble with everything from stock wheels to handbuilts going out of true, and half a page of Sheldon was enough for me to consistently build wheels that I've never had to true. Don't underestimate yourself 😉

If you want to just get started as easily as possible, you can read less than half of Sheldon's page and crack on. It's what I did, and it's served me well over the years.

+1. Exactly my approach and I have built around 10 wheels over last few years and none have given me any problems at all.

I am such a cheapskate I just put the wheel in the frame with zip ties to check for roundness and straightness but I end up with true wheels.

Although wrong to assume that every one needs such little guidance I guess.

While not cheaper, it gives you complete freedom. And, personally, the reason I started building my own was repeated disappointment in the build quality of wheels that other people had built. I had plenty of trouble with everything from stock wheels to handbuilts going out of true, and half a page of Sheldon was enough for me to consistently build wheels that I've never had to true. Don't underestimate yourself

The thought of building up a wheelset combo that's not available from whatever reasonable parts I can get hold of cheap (as opposed to saying 'where's the cheapest place I can buy a Hope) is appealing, as is truing my own wheels. I've read in a few places that it's not as cheap as you think, but when I look at the price of something like some Novatech Hubs (or SH DT350s/Hope Pro2 Evos), £15 Pacenti TL28s, reasonable spokes and nipples, it seems like I could assemble a decent weight 'trail' wheelset for a very modest price.

As said, I've done the wheels a lot before but only when they got older. I've got a set of Pro4s/Easton Arcs that are in need of straightening as well, so learning to DIY will save an awful lot.

The thought of building up a wheelset combo that's not available from whatever reasonable parts I can get hold of cheap is appealing

Yeah, this is one of the great things. On the one hand I've built myself some highly customised wheels for reasonable prices and on the other I've been able to pick up bits and pieces when they're cheap and then make them into wheels when I find a use for them: the 29" disc wheels on my Longitude are perfectly functional and they cost me £40 for the whole lot (secondhand Halo rims with new Halo spokes and new SRAM hubs).

Though you should be careful not to offset those savings by getting into habits like this:

https://twitter.com/beztweets/status/794295267914907648

😀

I've been building my own wheels for nearly 20 years - the only time I've had anything break was due to stress-cracking of alloy nipples - avoided alloy nipples since and never had any problems. My last pair of wheels were carbon-rimmed fatbike wheels - sourced a pair of rims from China for the price of one rim in the UK

Buy spokes from rose bikes. You can buy Dt comps for about £15 a wheel. Postage is a bit steep but still works out cheaper.

Sapim race from the cycle clinic is my go-to spoke choice. £16 for 32 in silver, a bit more for black. Postage included.

once you've built a few you start to notice how many of the "brand" wheels are kinlin rims on novatech/bitex hubs, and realise just how much margin they're putting into them

I nearly stockpiled loads of black DT Champs from Rose yesterday, because they're selling them at 8p each.

Then I noticed (fortunately before I checked out) the 8p ones are straight pull. Bah.

But if anyone out there stocked up on cheap Pulstars back in the day, now's your time to shine 😉

a bit more for black

Hmm, £12.80 more per 32. Total cost of about £57 for a pair of wheels, vs about £30 plus postage from Rose for my usual black DT Comps.

My other default choice is black plain gauge Halos for £12 per wheel on eBay.

Alpina F1 black DB are my default spoke. I splashed out on D-lights for my Bird FS build but in all honesty i am not sure it was worth the extra over the Alpina.

In vaguely related news, this is today's purchase. You don't get these and a dyno hub on an off-the-shelf pair of wheels 🙂

[img] [/img]

Ooh, where do you get those? Not that I need a new wheel, but tempted to build one just in order to have those nipples!

I agree with the above - I tend to build highly customised wheels, if you're building something you can get off the shelf it doesn't really seem worth bothering (apart from that when you've done a few you can make them much better than machine built wheels at least). Most recently I've built unicycle wheels which aren't available off the shelf at all, but my road bike rear wheel for example is a 24h rim triplet laced to a 32h Record hub and you won't get that without building it yourself or paying lots to a specialist (I doubt a normal shop would want to do it).

They're TLC rainbow brass nipples. I ordered from Alan's BMX as they seemed to be cheapest.

I'm more excited about them than a grown man probably should be 😉 but I've been having rainbow withdrawal symptoms now that I no longer have these:

[img] [/img]

After reading all this recommend me a trying stand. Cheap my new shiny bits for my new frame has me wiped out 😀

don't scrimp on a cheap nipple wrench and just go with brass nipples. Silver if you dont want to be constantly swearing at every little chip on the coating.

fudge9202 - Member
After reading all this recommend me a trying stand...

An upside down bike frame. It'll likely be more accurate than a cheap truing stand.

Just bought 68 spokes ACI Alpina DB 2.0/1.7/2.0 so a bit lighter than DT swiss comp (1g)including 12mm nipples for £20.38 delivered to my door next day 😀 from [url= http://http://www.cyclebasket.com/ ]spokes[/url] Cyclebasket.com
Nice chap at other end of phone if you need any help.
Used a few times now and always been spot on.

Cheers blastit will give them a ring in the morning, epicyclo that certainly is a cheap truing stand Cheers

Received spokes today , just popped them on scales for anyone who is interested . 34 x 272mm , 34 x 274mm spokes and 64x 12mm nipples come in at 454g so thats 6.7g per spoke and nipple. Nipples come in at a gram each so thats 5.7g per spoke.
Will build up for sons xmas wheels onto hope pro4 hubs and those WTB ST 25 rims from PlanetX at a very nice £8.00 each. So should build into some nice wheels.

I think most places charge about £20 for the labour don't they? Or am I well wide of the mark?

Yes, you're well wide. 🙂
I've built a fair few wheels (Over 100) and whilst I'm not blowing my own trumpet, it's an hour a wheel to me or just under. I doubt anyone else is much faster. More than once I've done 6 identical wheels back to back and whilst that teaches you the method, I still doubt I was under 45mins/wheel.
£40/hr is cheap bike shop labour.....

On Mussons book, I learned from that, then when I did my Cytech I learned how to do it properly.... Not really because the book is lacking, but because thre's so much to take in you need it explaining. Also, his method of lacing, whilst perfectly fine, isn't the easiest to remember or get the best results from. The diagrams in [url= https://www.amazon.co.uk/Art-Wheelbuilding-Gerd-Schraner/dp/0964983532 ]THIS BOOK[/url] make more sense and his method is what I moved onto and now use all the time. I can not build a wheel for months then pick up some spokes etc and build one without referring to it, because it makes more sense and seems more logical (to me) whereas Mussons method I was always having to follow step by step with the book in front of me.

A note on cheap wheel jigs. I have a Minoura jig but like many consumer jigs it's not possible to guarantee the feelers are properly centred. I use the dishing stick to check centring: by placing it against the wheel with the axle bracket against the jig's dropouts in turn, it's easy to see which way the rim needs to go. Once it's close I use the feelers to make small adjustments to whichever sections are furthest out. When the bracket ends up in the same place relative to the locknuts on both sides you're central.

An old frame/fork plus a dishing stick will work perfectly like this, it's just that a jig is easier to sit down with on the floor in front of the telly 😉

But at least it means that you can still centre a rim perfectly without a professional quality jig.

I've built several pairs of wheels using nothing other than Sheldon Brown guide (in fact I still use it even though I have the e-book) and truing the wheels by zip tying a pencil to the frame/fork.

I used ACI spokes from cyclebasket.

Not had a wheel fail yet in 10+ years. I think that's because I stick to standard 32 double butted spoke builds rather than going for anything super light. i.e. It's not down to my wheel building skills.

Bez - Member
...An old frame/fork plus a dishing stick will work perfectly like this, it's just that a jig is easier to sit down with on the floor in front of the telly

If you stick an old set of straight bars on the frame, it's pretty stable.

I have found with cheap stands and even some expensive ones that they get out of true, so finishing off a wheel job in the frame or fork it is intended for has advantages.

I have found with cheap stands and even some expensive ones that they get out of true

Yeah, hence using the dishing stick instead of relying on the jig. The stick will always measure the rim relative to the locknuts so it doesn't matter what you use to hold the wheel: it can be as misaligned and flexible as you like, it just needs to let you turn the wheel.

My nearest trusted lbs builds loads of wheels and they charge 30 front 35 rear labour plus spokes

[quote=Bez ]But at least it means that you can still centre a rim perfectly without a professional quality jig.

I use a cheap jig (about as cheap as you could get) and have never used a dishing stick - just flip the wheel in the jig.

Yeah, that works*, but offering up a stick is a lot less faff than taking the wheel in and out 🙂

* provided, IME, you're not doing anything awkward like Rohloffs or dynohubs

A little PSA for fellow stockpilers: JE James currently have 700c XM319s for a cheerful £10 a pop with free postage. I've got a couple, they seem like nice enough rims for anything from road to XC:

https://www.jejamescycles.com/mavic-xm319-32h-rim-29er.html

Oh, one more thing,

If you're a novice, it's easier to build a strong wheel with 36 spokes over a lesser number.

Meh, I think the difference between 32 and 36 is insignificant for almost everyone. I went years before I bothered with a 36, and even then I only did it for the sake of doing something different. The main difference a beginner will find with a 36 is that it takes about 12% longer to build 😉

There's minimal difference between building 32 and 36 imo. I started on 32, I've only built 36 when cheap hubs or rims have arrived by "accident"

Either is a good place to start. I'd not recommend starting with a 20-spoke DT revolution build....

Define "better"

If you want to just get started as easily as possible, you can read less than half of Sheldon's page and crack on. It's what I did, and it's served me well over the years.

I've no doubt Roger's book has more information in it and is "better". It's just that unless you're building for relatively exceptional demands, you'll almost certainly only need to know the core stuff; you can pick up the finer details much later, or by experience alone, if you ever find the need.

So you needn't feel it's "better" to digest an entire book in order to build a decent wheel.

Its not really a book though, its a guide on how to build wheels with all the info you need. It doesn't go into massive detail on every issue, but it does explain why you do things as well as how you do them. I've built wheels using it which have turned out very good indeed. For £3 its a bargain

I've only ever built 36 out of necessity - because that's what unicycle hubs are (TBH I'm happy to have the extra strength there). Most of my bike wheels have been 32 (the only exceptions being my roadie wheels which are 18/24 - wouldn't recommend doing those for your first wheels!) Couldn't say I really noticed the difference - and if you build a rubbish 32h wheel then you'd still build a rubbish 36h one.

+1 for the Musson book as described by newrobdob. It's an excellent primer but not something you'd read cover to cover. Use it as an information source and it's fine. Myself and a friend both built our first wheels around the same time using it. He was unhappy with the wheels he built, paid a shop to fix them and never built again. I now prefer to build my own and am pleased with the wheels I make. It would have been interesting to see if there was a difference if we'd been to some sort of instructor led course instead. At the end of the day it's a skill and as such can be taught, but if self teaching then there's wide scope for how successful you will be I think.

Personally I'm using a Minoura stand and a dishing stick and find the combo works well for me, but I'm not working on the clock. I found the basic Park tension gauge was a game changer for me, but agree that it's not a necessity, just a useful thing to have that makes life easier.

More opportunities for fancy lacing with 36 spokes though.

Bez - Member
Meh, I think the difference between 32 and 36 is insignificant for almost everyone. I went years before I bothered with a 36, and even then I only did it for the sake of doing something different. The main difference a beginner will find with a 36 is that it takes about 12% longer to build

Anybody use spoke washers?

[quote=sv ]Anybody use spoke washers?

No, I'm not worried about them being a bit dirty.

aracer - Member
sv » Anybody use spoke washers?
No, I'm not worried about them being a bit dirty.

I haven't used them before but I've ordered some this time just in case, as I've ordered some of the ACIs from Cyclebasket and I gather they can be a bit longer in the elbow than DTs.

Rainbow nipples have arrived (with a couple of bonus stickers). Nice.

Right, this has got me thinking too much.
The front wheel on my 2016 901 is dying fast - It's cup and cone and it's properly knackered. Rim is fine, but I figure the chance of being able to relace a new hub onto the same rim (using the same spokes) is pretty small. So would seem an ideal time for a build.

What would a decent budget front hub with 32h, good sealing, and cartridge bearings be? Some form of Novatech?
Likewise, good budget rim (<£35ish?) that's lightish (mid 400s would be lovely! Dream world...?)
650b, 15x110

I mean, I'm a tart so it'd be nice to have matching front and rear, but I'm still tempted to buy a Hope front hub just because in my experience they work. But that sort of buggers the whole 'budget' thing...

Novatec hubs are pretty durable and easy to service - when the time comes it's easy to drift-out and replace the bearings with better quality ones. In terms of spokes, I use ACI double-butted for regular 32 hole builds - I don't see the benefit of paying 3-4x the price for a Sapim or DT Swiss equivalent and I've never had a spoke break. Kinlin are an OEM manufacturer of rims that get rebranded and sold by others - worth checking what's available.

Novatech hubs have always been decent in my experience. Superstar fronts come in at around £45 for all your tarty colourful needs too.

Planet X have some well-priced Pacenti rims at the mo too.

Pacenti something something 28s? Decent enough for general trail duties? I'm a light Rider but ride reasonable hard, but can probably get away with not the toughest.
Any recommendations on which particular Novatech model, and good places to buy? I suppose it may work out cheaper just to buy a pair...

Should have bought some of those cheap dt350s a few months back, grrrr.

I have a set of DT350s (new, black/32H/6 bolt/F 15mm/R 142x12/Shimano freehub ) email in profile if interested.

Right, I've just purchased a set of 350s from the chap above.
So, I guess the first thing to do is measure the 'Whyte' branded hubs I already have up ( https://leonard.io/edd/howtomeasure) in the distant hope that they might be the same dimensions. They won't be. But I'll do it anyways. Because I'm an optimist(The internet seems to suggest they may be rebranded Formulas)

When it turns out they aren't, a few slightly spoon feedy questions:
- Would it be an idea to try my first build with the rim that's already on there (it's quite straight) or would I be better with a brand new, 'known good' one?
- Can I reuse the nipples? Is this a really silly idea?
- Am I best to use really cheap spokes and rim for my first build? Any recommendations on what to use?

Against all common sense, but due to necessity, my first build will be a front wheel. :/

- Would it be an idea to try my first build with the rim that's already on there (it's quite straight) or would I be better with a brand new, 'known good' one?

If it's still spot on then it should be fine to use it - worth putting in a wheelbuilding jig and checking. If there's a very slight wobble ( < a couple of mm) either laterally or in diameter then it should be OK.

- Can I reuse the nipples? Is this a really silly idea?

Silly idea!

- Am I best to use really cheap spokes and rim for my first build? Any recommendations on what to use?

Might as well use decent ones. You'll probably end up re-lacing once or twice but after that you are building a wheel so you may as well do it right first time. My first wheel build was with a dynamo hub and I just followed the instructions/methodology in the Masson book.

Excellent, thank you!
I guess if I'm buying new spokes I should probably weigh the rims, see if they're decent, and if not, then get a new rim as well(I haven't broken these yet, despite frequently dropping off most parts of Hatton Flight on the way to work...)
So, DT comps from Rose? Generic brass nipples?

- Can I reuse the nipples? Is this a really silly idea?

Silly idea!

Not IME, I've never had any problems from reusing brass nipples, I wouldn't reuse aluminium ones though. whitestone, what issues have you run into ?

DT Comps will be fine, but tbh whatever branded DB spoke you can easily get hold of will probably do for most usage. DT, Sapim and ACI are the only ones I've used though.

@johnners - none - didn't see where brass was specified though. Apologies if I missed it.

Ace, thanks for all the help so far.

So, moon on a stick rim requirements:
- 650b
- 25 to 30mm ID
- sub 500g
- Trail capable
- not tricky to build with
- as cheap as possible

Suggestions?
Was going to look at TL28s but unfortunately not wife enough.
Best I've found so far are Stans Arch for about 50 quid.

I've just built a pair of Pacenti DL31 in 26". They were 520g per rim and 26mm internal. They built very well and look solid. I paid £13 each for mine although they are now £14.99. I'd certainly recommend them as they look and built great.

Good stuff, cheers. I'm looking at those or the web i25s for a tenner on PX. Neither fall under the magic weight but both ace the other requirements!

The Stans rims are very light, it's remarkable how light they are compared to a lot of the other brands but they seem to hold up fine in use.

Yeah, but 5 times the price of the WTBs! I'm finding it hard to look past that tbh!
I knew I should have stocked up on those cheap Easton ARCs when CR were knocking then out!

Can't recommend mussons book enough. After building one wheel with just a spoke wrench and having to build 2 more, I decided to build his stand.
It's much more work than I thought, and hopefully worth it (will use it this weekend for the first time).
This was a few days ago, now it's primed, just need to add two layers of paint:
[img] [/img]

I'll open a thread with all the info about materials and cost once it's finished, but I think the two I made came around £15 each.

Right, can I ask a few spoke spec questions from the knowledgeable people?!
I've got some lovely 350s here in my hand, and I've ordered some of the WTB ST i25s from PX (really wanted Arches, but didn't couldn't justify the price. Handily, ERD is the same as the WTBs for future changes though)
ERD of the WTBs is 567 according to [url= https://www.wtb.com/products/st?variant=5007968324 ]this[/url].
Can I trust that, or do I need to wait for them to turn up and measure?

Planning on getting black ACI Alpinas from [url= https://www.cyclebasket.com/m9b0s453p1832/ACI_Alpina_BLACK_DB_Spokes_Packet_Of_10 ]here[/url] and matching black 12mm nipples. Is 12mm correct?

Using the [url= https://spokes-calculator.dtswiss.com/en/calculator ]DT Spoke calculator[/url] and selecting the nearest equivalent DB spokes and 12mm Pro Loc nipples (I figure they're closest!) it's coming out with spoke lengths of
F:273.3(l), 275.5(r)
R: 274.6(l) 274.4(r)

So, can I get away with using 274s for all of them? Cyclebasket don't appear to list 276s(next largest is 280). I suspect the answer is no...

Thanks in advance!

submarined - Member
...
ERD of the WTBs is 567 according to this.
Can I trust that, or do I need to wait for them to turn up and measure?
...
Using the DT Spoke calculator and selecting the nearest equivalent DB spokes and 12mm Pro Loc nipples (I figure they're closest!) it's coming out with spoke lengths of
F:273.3(l), 275.5(r)
R: 274.6(l) 274.4(r)

So, can I get away with using 274s for all of them?

Anyhow I always measure these days.

I reckon you'd get off with 274 for all except the 275.5.

BTW if there is a cross-section diagram of the rim you can often get enough dimensions off it to get a pretty good approximation of the ERD.

For example if a known rim is 21mm deep but the one you are getting is 20mm deep, then the odds are the ERD is 1mm greater. That's because the bit from the tyre bed to the top of the flange is usually almost the same on both rims.

But it's still better to actually measure.

For example if a known rim is 21mm deep but the one you are getting is 20mm deep, then the odds are the ERD is 1mm greater. That's because the bit from the tyre bed to the top of the flange is usually almost the same on both rims.

Even if that were a reliable method, surely the difference would be 2mm?

Bez - Member
Even if that were a reliable method, surely the difference would be 2mm?

I'll open a thread with all the info about materials and cost once it's finished, but I think the two I made came around £15 each

Before I purchased a stand I put together a full set of manufacturing drawings for the Musson Stand as I was going to get one made by our in house workshop where I work. I'd happily supply them to anyone if you email me as they are in PDF format.

^^^^ I may take you up on that, very kind!

Right, rims have arrived, and I've measured the ERD to be withing 0.5mm of the quoted one, happy with that.
I'll order DT Comps from Rose, is it worth getting DT Pro Lock nipples? Or are they a pain?

Also, trivial thing, but any recommendations for a spoke key?