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I've been building up some new CX wheels, Pacenti Forza rims, 28 spoke 3x rear, 2x front, doubled butted Sapim spokes, alloy Sapim nipples, Sapim spoke washers.
It's a wee bit of an experiment, e.g. I would never have used alloy nipples in the past but have rear good things about the Sapim ones (harder, less prone to corrossion etc). The spoke count and gauge is based on how I always built my MTB wheels (albeit with 32 spokes) but also on my current OEM MTB wheels which are also 28 spoke.
Anyway, I phoned a local (legendary) wheelbuilder looking to pay for the use of his spoke tension meter (e.g. renting some workshop space while I went round my own rims). He then spent half an hour (out of the goodness of his heart and an obvious enthusiasm for talking wheelbuilding) telling me why my build was too light, too flimsy and would be prone to breaking spokes. And also that he didn't use a meter, just trusted his hands.
I'm just hoping that although he is obviously an expert, he might also be stuck in his ways and a bit conservative, I just can't see how my build is going to be any weaker than the stock wheels on my current bikes (all 28 spoke with similar lacing patterns).
On the other hand, it's pretty rare that you get half an hour of free advice from an expert in the field with decades more experience than you. Seems ridiculous that I'm even considering ignoring him! My justification is that I should learn from my own mistakes.
WWSTWD?
Disc or rim brake?
How heavy are you?
Wheelcraft? He's been talking shit about spoke counts and light builds for the 20 years I've known about him
Rim brake, DT 350 hubs.
I'm 85kg, but based on my own evidence (lack of damaged wheels, infrequency of punctures) I like to think that I ride quite light.
Mashr, wouldn't like to name names, but interested to hear your opinion! 😉
It's my experience that most wheel builders have a tried and trusted 'method' and are reluctant to alter from that unless forced to. I can understand why.
Out of interest using the same rims and spoke count why have you changed cross pattern between front and rear? Traditionally its a larger flange that reduces the cross pattern - see Roholff 2 cross recommendations even of super loaded tourers. Front hubs 'normally' have a smaller flange than rears so I'm not sure of the logic beyond aesthetics (not that that is not a thing).
Are the new wheels disc specific? edit - crossed posts - rim, that makes it better.
As you already own all the components I'd just roll with it and see what happens. He's probably right - for your intended use the 4 spoke reduction is going to have no noticeable performance advantage but will be arguably mildly weaker. They will possibly be aesthetically more pleasing and I guess it depends how important this is for you.
Tonight is tension up night (last night was lace up night) on my latest road wheel set. 20 radial front/ 24 2 cross rear, rim brake. And I chickened out and didn't use aluminium alloy nipples but stuck to tried and trusted (to me) brass. Lowest spoke count wheels wheels I have ever built but they are a direct copy of a well respected wheelbuilders standard wheels (bar the nipples) so I'm hoping it will be fine!
Wheel building with a beer or a dram and an audiobook is one of my favourite ways to spend an evening.
he might also be stuck in his ways and a bit conservative
I suspect that if you make a living selling wheels to people you have to be a bit conservative.
Mashr, wouldn’t like to name names, but interested to hear your opinion!
I believe my opinion is clear 😉
Out of interest using the same rims and spoke count why have you changed cross pattern between front and rear?
I had read somewhere that 2x would offer more lateral stiffness at the expense of strength. The theory checked out in my head at least, so I went with it, logic being I want the front wheel to be more laterally stiff for steering, and the spokes shouldn't be subject too much stress other than braking forces (and it's a gravel/CX bike, not like I'll be hauling on the anchors from any great speed very often).
Do you have a copy of Roger Musson's wheelbuilding ebook?
It would have saved me a lot of time and bother if I'd bought that _before_ fooling around trying to build wheels.
It's certainly sounds like a legendary campsie wheel builder.
Should have told him they were black spokes to seal the deal
Wheelbuilders are always conservative - they have to be as don't want the wheels to come back! Heed the advice, but factor in your own experience. I asked for black spokes and black alloy nipples. My builder was reluctant, corrosion, light (20/24 Dura Ace) etc... But he knows I'm light and built them anyway. they are absolutely faculous wheels that have impressed everyone who has ridden them. They are now the ladies team spares.
Should have told him they were black spokes to seal the deal
Exactly what I was thinking.
I suspect that if you make a living selling wheels to people you have to be a bit conservative.
+1
I'd happily build wheels for other people. But they would all be either conservative component choices or one's I'd used before and had no issues with.
OTOH I have a set of CX wheels with crest rims that require frequent TLC. They're fine, but I'd be out of business pretty quickly if I had to re-true them for free every few hundred miles. I pretty much have to show them some TLC every time I putoline the chain!
Also the wheel builders business model is based on convincing you that all the 'industry' is wrong.
Also the wheel builders business model is based on convincing you that all the ‘industry’ is wrong.
Hmm. I can see what you're getting at here. Much as wheel building has always been presented as some sort of black art.
Wheel building with a beer or a dram and an audiobook is one of my favourite ways to spend an evening.
This is why I have a shed full of wheels.
Only upside is it's easy enough to swap bikes and think "I want those rims on those hubs" and be able to swap them which I've done a few times.
Hmm. I can see what you’re getting at here. Much as wheel building has always been presented as some sort of black art.
I think the 'black art' is just in peoples minds, the first time I build some wheels I got them on the bike, went for a ride and thought "ohh, was that it?". Minimal faff or drama just followed the guide on Sheldon's site. I think most people just don't see the point in learning. Same as some people can't bleed their own brakes or setup a derailleur.
Heh, not that I'm saying it *was* the legendary Campsies man, but he did ask about the spoke colour.
Mine are silver 😉
I enjoyed talking with him though, I've built plenty of wheels but they've mostly all been 3x/32 spoke, so my actual experience is pretty narrow.
Do you have a copy of Roger Musson’s wheelbuilding ebook?
Yeah, haven't referred to it for a while actually as I've built enough wheels to be confident enough just to dive straight in.
He’s probably right – for your intended use the 4 spoke reduction is going to have no noticeable performance advantage but will be arguably mildly weaker.
He made exactly the same point, possibly saving 5g weight, but then the other spokes get longer so you're not even saving that! (plus the weight of 4 fewer spoke drillings lol).
Tonight is tension up night
I've got to wait a few weeks until I can tension. Just out of surgery on my lower back so I could lace them in short bursts when I was standing up, but tensioning requires a good hour of sitting and concentrating which is strictly forbidden until my back heals. Have just nipped them all up finger tight so the wheels don't rattle when I spin them 🙂
I'm quite lucky that my not-so-local wheel builder is far from being conservative. Otherwise I would not end up with the wheels laced with strings:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xrthvxPMXhTasvFw6
only half an hour on the phone? 😉
I once bought some DT rev's from him at the 1995 price (it was 2010, I assume they were in there since 1995)
He asked if I'd been building wheels long and what I was building.
When I said MTB wheels, he just shook his head and told me that I should be looking at some burly spokes. he does errr on the side of caution, but has a reputation to uphold.
My wheels were fine, BTW.
I think the ‘black art’ is just in peoples minds, the first time I build some wheels I got them on the bike, went for a ride and thought “ohh, was that it?”. Minimal faff or drama just followed the guide on Sheldon’s site.
That was it for me. Have always done my own bike stuff since I was about 8 years old yet didn't build a wheel until in my forties as it was just in my mind that is must be difficult.
Followed Sheldon's pretty much one pager instructions and thought I must have done something wrong as it was so simple.
only half an hour on the phone?
Haha! Could have been so much longer, I hadn't even got round to telling him that I was using alloy nipples...
My wife got home with our 2.5 year old son so it was full red alert all hands on deck at that point, and even then it was a struggle to get off the phone politely!
I'm LOL'ing at the black spoke vs silver spoke thing, and thinking that I need to drop in soon and see him. Hope his foot has healed.
Haha! Could have been so much longer, I hadn’t even got round to telling him that I was using alloy nipples…
The half a dozen folk waiting in the shop to try and take home their wheels (which probably hadn't actually been touched yet) thank you for your nipples
This very funny. I had the same experience! All I wanted was a quote to build the wheels to my exact specification. They were intended as lightweight climbing wheels to go with a Cervelo R3 road bike. He spent at least half an hour lecturing me on why I was wrong and should have box section rims with hundreds of (silver) spokes. It was clear he wasn’t going to a) get off the phone, and b) build my wheels for me. Lovely bloke though. I mean a splendid fella to listen to.
If it makes you feel any better, my local wheel builder who is very well respected, has happily just built me a 28h Forza wheelset.
Never had to touch any of the wheels that he's built.
He is a nice guy, but not everything he says/does is correct. He is very set in his ways. I would treat his advice as his opinion rather than fact.
And also that he didn’t use a meter, just trusted his hands.
Often resulting in over tension and damaged rims.
Your build looks fine. I would use brass nipples personally for long term durability, but alloy nipples are lighter, that is a trade off decision the customer can choose. I would suggest lacing 2x on the rear as well, or check the spoke angles and nipple articulation very carefully.
Wheel building is not black magic. You just need to be methodical.
Hi 13thfloormonk.........
You had a look at the Pacenti Website? The wheels you are describing are pretty much EXACTLY what Pacenti supply as their Gravel/CX wheels.
They are all built by the amazing Chas Curry at Roots Cycle Works in Exmouth.
They are VERY good wheels btw. (Made by a VERY good wheel builder who definitely knows his stuff.)
Are your Rims definitely Forzas or are they the TL28's that were on sale at PlanetX?
OP, if built (tensioned) well they be a great pair of wheels.
Just been building up a pair of carbon wheels on DT 240 hubs for a customer.
20h, 50mm deep Radial bladed spokes (black) Red alloy nipples
24h, 60mm deep, 2x, 1.8 butted spokes (black) red alloy nipples
looking bling!
Alloy nipples are OK, and I have no issue with the wheels I built with alloy nipples,
BUT I do lube spoke threads/nipples/rim area (not carbon rims) with Ceramic or wax chain lube, just before tensioning the wheel. (I know not all mechanic lube the the spokes/nipples)
Also if you keep you wheels/rims clean they should last well.
The really thin butted spokes, 1.5 tend to twist more and stretch over time and a bit more of a pain to build with so need more TLC.
OP, get yourself a park spoke tension meter, they not to much and they are great bit of kit when building wheels and really better than guessing with you hands. (hands are fine if you building the same few wheels/same spec, day in day out)
"They are all built by the amazing Chas Curry at Roots Cycle Works in Exmouth"
Yes Chaz is a great wheel builder, had pair of stans Olympic rims on Royce hubs, tied and soldered wheels for racing, still going strong when I got rid of them.
Also went to Chaz to have a refresh on wheel building after been away from wheel building for many years. Top guy
You had a look at the Pacenti Website? The wheels you are describing are pretty much EXACTLY what Pacenti supply as their Gravel/CX wheels.
Which wheels are you looking at? The ones I see are 28 hole rear but built 2 cross, D-Light spokes as well, not sure how they differ from the Race spokes.
Spoke to Matt from Pacenti when I bought the rims, gave me some great advice although wasn't massively impressed with the Park TM1 tension meter (think he said they read high?).
Might phone my old employers, they had a really nice DT meter...
How did the spoke angle end up on the 28 3x ? That’s the only concern I’d have.
This week I’ve done 5 of 6 wheels on DT 350 and 240 straight pull hubs that I got a deal on and will settle in to #6 after typing this. First wheels I’ve built for a long while and I’m loving squorx nipples. So much so that I’m trying to rationalise new wheels for some other bikes just to build more!
Spoke angle looks absolutely fine, I would have thought if anything that 2 cross would create more of sideways angle as the spoke has less distance to travel to get to the flange so needs to splay out more to cover that horizontal difference (hence the extra lateral stiffness mentioned above).
I'm using washers and Polyax nipples also although I don't imagine there's much room for the nipple to change angle, it's almost restrained by the diameter of the nipple drilling.
Sorry I meant to check spoke angle like this, not side to side (though that can also be an issue on some rims)
If its like this then the spokes tend to break at the "kink"
It depends on the hub/rim combination, and the nipple. As a general rule higher spoke count wheels can have a higher number of crosses. Deeper rims and bigger hub flanges will reduce spoke cross to get the right angle. Rims with tight spoke holes will reduce or prevent nipple articulation. Some rim manufacturers angle drill rims side-side.
Yeah I was looking for the kink but of course the spokes are all still baggy so I won't see for sure until I tension.
In other news, have found someone willing to let me use their DT Analog tension meter for an hour which was the reason for the original phone call which started this thread 🙂
Will tension wheels then go in and see just how close I got by hand, should be interesting!
Also the wheel builders business model is based on convincing you that all the ‘industry’ is wrong.
I think in the case of an independent nipple tweaker in the campsies, the main thing he finds wrong with the industry seems to be the high prices!
Wrong thread
Freespoke tells you the spoke angle at the rim.
Either ride them or sell them
I wouldn't choose to ride 28H or build 2x and I think I'm lighter than you
(Never used a tension guage either).
(Never used a tension guage either).
Neither have I, it's largely curiosity but I guess also nerves, have never built with rims this pricey before!
You're almost certainly lighter than me, I was 85kg before 4 months enforced absence from the bike...