[Closed] Wheel compromise; speed vs durability & grip

I’m willing to accept running a higher pressure to run MUCH lighter wheels and tyres.

My 50mm wide internal rim wheelset is 1850g.

My most recent 30mm wide rim wheelset is 1556g.

Rarely are my tyres over 750g nor the stickiest compound.

It’s probably not the fastest setup all downhill, but it feels all round about right to me.

i'm the opposite of Daffy, its all about the downs for me so durability and grip.

dont even know what my sixth element/i9 wheelset weighs but do know that the michelin wild enduro's are quite heavy plus i have a liner in the rear.

for me i'm happy to pedal that weight and drag on the flat and up to allow me to let it go on the downs, live in the lakes so theres a limit how light you could get away with on a tyre anyway and my other riding is mainly steep enduro tracks so plenty of grip needed.

Tyres are a compromise all the time, speed vs grip, wet vs dry, etc, etc, but reality is you have a good all rounder and some lighter ones, just pick what works for the riding you're doing, if you want to sacrifice a bit of the downhill stuff, so going slower and safer, dabbing a bit and so on, to then enjoy the faster, less energy sapping ride then the choice is easy, if you want to hit corners, roots, etc with a bit more speed, then maybe you need a better profile and grippier tyre, but then sacrifice the other riding, so more pootling and less miles.

I find the biggest issue is just getting the confidence in your tyres during a ride, it can take a while to get up to speed, so maybe just practicing more on the areas you have less confidence can help as well, it can be different for everyone, those off camber roots, or the berms that have a bit of a glossy look, i know it takes me a fair few berms to get up to speed with my confidence on a bike, so i tend to try and get that in early in a ride.

Much as i like the feel of a light bike, and the 'common sense' voice in my head, it seems that the biggest difference is made to me by the rolling resistance of the tyres.

It doesnt really matter what bike you put them on, a pr of grippy low pressure downhill tyres maka bike v hard to pedal and feel dead. In contrast a heavier set of wheels with fast rolling tyres always feels more lively to me.

As posted above its a compromise for me between being hapoy with grip and tyre feedback, vs rolling resistance and effort required to get from one fun area to another.

You may feel differently, but i feel too much is made of another 300g on a pair of wheels vs huge draggyvtyres that weigh over a kg each.

Ian

Your fortus 30s probably aren’t helping things - they’re pretty heavy things.
Personally I’d keep the DHF on the front as steering is the most important thing there.

Just go a bit faster rolling on the rear. I’ve just bought a Rekon for the rear of my bike for summer riding and it’s a very flimsy tyre it has to be said. Feels flimsier than the slaughter I’ve got and even the Forekaster. Definitely going to be buying an insert to go in it - either Rimpact or Rimpact pro I think.

You could try a dissector / aggressor / Forekaster on the back to replace the dhr2 (if you want to stick to Maxxis). I’d say the dissector is the most aggressive of those 3 probably, the aggressor maybe doesn’t beat the dissector at anything (can’t decide between the 2) and the Forekaster has less aggressive side knobs but the middle tread will deal with mud better.

You could also consider as similar tyres to the Forekaster - nobby nic / ground control.

I’ve run a Forekaster 27.5x2.6 on my hardtail through all sorts of slop and it’s been pretty good as an allrounder - it has a Rimpact in it and I’ve not had any issues.

Easiest way to decide your priorities is to keep the light race combo on and go do some enduro trails. Take it easy and take your spare wheels so you can change back to them after the first section.
It will show up straight away what you are giving up and whether that’s worth the other benefits.

As for other options, your current choice but in 2.3 exo max terra would be faster without giving up too much grip outside the enduro trails.

I often run a Minion DHF up front and a Rock Razor on the back. You swap a bit of grip and steep downhill braking traction in particular, but gain a shedload of reduced rolling resistance without giving up front end or much cornering bite. Works great in dry to medium stuff - Peak District mainly - though not so great on really soft stuff, though even then the Rock Razor is better than you might think.

I'd swap the back tyre for something quicker and see what you make of it. The trouble with all the faster Maxxis tyres, I think, is you lose grip right across the tyre, with the RR you get a fast rolling centre, but great big side-lugs. Great tyre and the 2.35 comes up pretty big.

Edit: I don't really fret about wheel weight, it's the rolling resistance you notice most ime.

If I were you I'd swap the tyres between the two wheelsets and ride them back to back. And then try them with the light wheel but Minion on the front and heavy wheel but fast tyre on the back.

My money is on the chunkier tyres slowing you down (not because they're heavy but because the thicker casing, bigger knobs and softer compounds causes greater hysteresis losses), not the heavier rims. And the light rim chunky tyre front, heavy rim fast tyre back being the best compromise.

Although it's annoying when it's too muddy/loose, a semi-slick on the back like a Rock Razor really speeds up a bike without losing much in the way of downhill benefits.

I agree on the weight difference!

I have killed the rear hub on my Marin OEM wheel and so swapped it for the spare OEM Norco rear wheel we had in the shed. The one rear wheel is about 500g heavier - and most of that seems to be in the rim and spokes...Oh My Word it is slower.

It also has lower spoke tension (the Marin wheel having been trued / tightened locally) and I can feel the flex and squirm, which also makes it feel worse when pedalling or on rough ground.

I am a 14.5st/92kg rider, and while smooth I don't shy away from some pretty rocky trails. I have never broken a wheel or similar, I rarely puncture (I do run higher pressures though) and find that GOOD wheels are brilliant additions to any bike.

Its a question of understanding what you can get away with for your riding style.

I don't bend wheels, and I don't generally pinch flat on the front, so I can get away with skinnier spokes and ally nips (marginal gains!), and a light front rim, plus a relatively lightweight front tyre (although I do like big chunky side knobs, so an Exo casing Minion or similar would be perfect)

Rear, I have a habit of dinging rims, so a heavier rim and a stouter carcass is required, but as above - in summer I'll stick something like a Spesh Slaughter Grid Trail (if I can find one), Rock Razor, Minion SS or WTB Trail Boss tough/fast on the back. Fast rolling centre, decent side knobs for grip when cranked over.

I'm also not entirely sold on the need for wide rims on the back, so you can save a bit more weight by going with a 25mm rim rather than a 30mm one.

(FWIW - I'm running a 1.4kg WTB Judge on the back of my big bike at the moment. Insane grip, tough as old boots - but trying to accelerate the thing nearly kills me. Such hard work!)

joebristol

Your fortus 30s probably aren’t helping things – they’re pretty heavy things.

Yep, I'd start there before compromising on tyres and grip (though I realise tyres are much cheaper)

The Fortus wheelset in 29" is 2435g I run Newmen SL A 30 wheels, which aren't super expensive compared to a Hope wheesel, have the same internal width, and are plenty tough enough for my not inconsiderable weight despite only weighing 1780g for the set. That's a pound and a half, with a lot of it in the rims (Fortus rim is 724g, the Newmen is 532g)

Just picking up on that point a DT Swiss ex511 rim is quite a lot lighter than the quotes fortus rim weight above. Those fortus rims are mental heavy and the DT rims are really strong.

I missed off the Trailboss fast / tough tyre in my suggestions above. Vs the Maxxis / Ground Control / Nobby Nic options the Trailboss tough casing is really strong if you’re going to clatter it into a lot of stuff. The tread is ok but it clogs with mud a bit too easily / doesn’t have aggressive side lugs.

I know heavier rims/tyres feel heavier and thus slower but a wheel is a flywheel - a heavier wheel will carry speed better than a lighter wheel because it has greater angular momentum. Yes, they push back a bit harder when you push on the pedals but they do give it back once you're up to speed, as long as you're not over-braking.

My MTBs get commuted on as well as doing proper MTBing (and the commute is always partially off-road, with some air and sometimes some steeper techier stuff) so I've had to find tyres that don't get destroyed by tarmac or are horribly draggy, yet are still good on dirt. Exo/Grid casings and middling compounds (MaxxTerra or Addix Soft front, Dual or Addix Speed Grip rear, or Specialized T7 front and rear) and Rimpacts seem to work well. The less heavy casings roll better (because of their flexiblity not weight) and I can run the pressures at about 30psi for commutes and down towards 20ish to find more grip (and the inserts keep the tyres stable and stop me smashing rims/pinching tyres).

The difference between heavy tyres and lighter tyres is massive. less weight = less energy lost pedalling and less for gravity to drag on up a hill. It make a big difference.

I used to love the spring when i swapped out my grippy mud tyres for faster lighter better rolling tyres on my HT bike (that was all i rode for all riding all year round). It always felt like i got fit suddenly and pedalling seemed so easy!!

now i have an eeb so i dont care! haha

i prefer a lighter casing front tyre for grip, heavier on the rear for cornering and smacking off of stuff i fail to avoid. i keep trying lighter rears but they feel horrible, unstable in corners, or i destroy them so back to a DH casing i go.

Thanks everyone. Definitely agree the tyres are the biggest difference! I have been tempted to rebuild with some slightly lighter DT rims but don't think its worth the cost / hassle.

I tend to slice the EXO minions on the back quite often so thats what worried me with going for a lighter tyre, and thats as a light rider at 68kg with kit, with what I'd say are somewhat high pressures (23f/27r). I used to run 2.3s and I think they're probably a good compromise, but with the 30mm rims theyre a bit square for my liking. I tried an agressor a while back which was faster, but I didn't feel it was fast enough for the loss of braking traction and weaker cornering knobs. Thinking about trying a dissector but heard the cornering knobs are also fragile.

Just to add to the “it’s the tyres”concensus.

Same wheelset (circa 2kg, 30mm internal width) with 2 sets of tyres…the difference is night and day. The Butchers make you feel like you have flu on the way up but feel sooooooo good in the way down with all the grip and feel nicely damped!  The onzas feel zippy but are not exactly confidence inspiring when things get fast, steep or wet.

It’s horses for courses and the right choice for a most things is probably somewhere on the middle.

Tyre specs (weights are measured not quoted)

Onza Ibex 2.4 Front and Rear circa 860g, relatively shallow tread, not soft 65a/55a compound.

Specialized Butcher Front - 2.6 T9 Grid Trail 1000g Rear - 2.3, BlckDmnd, Gription compound 1250g. Specialized don’t quote Shore hardness ratings but they are soft.

I have also spent loads of time on Maxxis Minion DHF in both 2.5 and 2.3 widths and EXO 3C Maxterra or Dual Compound and they feel average to me. Just enough grip and not too draggy.

Overall, I’m happy to sacrifice a bit of climbing zip for descending grip/damping, which is why I have a set of hopefully as near “as Goldilocks as possible under the circumstances” DHF 2.5WT EXO Maxxgrip, DHRII 2.3 DD Maxterra ready to go on in the spring.

If you want your wheels to roll faster get a zero drag rear hub. I was amazed at the difference when I started using my Onyx Vesper.

The freehub on your hope wheels is creating the same drag as pulling a brick around on a rope behind you.

I never realised that the freehub created so much drag until I used the Onyx.

Ah tyres. Its such a tricky topic.

It comes down to this for me -

Prioritise grip and durability under peak loads and suffer/accept weight and drag elsewhere, or run something faster and lighter for everywhere else and moderate your riding in the tricky/rough/fast stuff to preserve your tyres. Then throw local conditions and riding style on top. It gets complicated quickly.

I try to split the difference, but bias towards catering for peak loads because thats the kind of riding where I like to spend my beans. My compromise translates as Exo casings minimum, and 2.4/2.5 inch maxxis with DHR front and Dissector rear. The 2.4 dissector gives me a bit more speed and is roughly equivalent to the performance (braking and rolling) as a 2.3 dhr2, but with greater volume and comfort.

I run low pressures (22FR/24RR) tubeless because I'm on slippy limestone, roots and clay in the winter and ride heavier on the back than the front. Pressures go up as speeds go up and can be 26/28 in the summer.

I suspect I should run a heavier carcass on the back. The combination of low pressure and my 92kg pushed more into the rear with my riding style seems to result in rear tyres that steadily lose air without having a specific slow puncture after a few months. I run a rimpact pro in the rear after trashing some rims and tyres and nothing in the front, because its never been needed.

I've recently got some of the latest generation Schwalbes and I've been impressed with their supertall carcass and new rubber compounds. They might drag me away from Maxxis...

I've got the same wheels as the OP and am just considering whether to swap out the rims for something lighter.

I'm really happy with an Assegai 2.5 front and a DH Dissector 2.4 rear running high-ish pressures (up to 30 in the rear). Aggressors have twice failed prematurely for me.

But now i've got to decide on what rims are worth changing to. 200g per wheel improvement would be worth it IMO.

@theghost

That literally isn't the case. They may be nice and quiet, but above 5mph or whatever normal seals / pawls are not in meaningful contact with the hub in a way that creates drag. Otherwise the entire pro peloton would have stopped using pawl / ratchet hubs.

@wr404

If you're racing competitive Enduro presumably you are more than aware what would happen if you dropped in at full pace on xc race tyres. You've said yourself you can't even run exo casing (I've raced exo+ just fine) and you couldn't handle the loss of grip from going dhr to aggressor on the rear. I don't know what you want us to say?

Truth is it doesn't really matter unless you're racing or or riding things where there's big consequence. In both of those situations, the choice is obvious. Anywhere else, why worry?

Ps the answer is dissector / reckon fyi. Oh and buy carbon wheels from LB.

That literally isn’t the case. They may be nice and quiet, but above 5mph or whatever normal seals / pawls are not in meaningful contact with the hub in a way that creates drag. Otherwise the entire pro peloton would have stopped using pawl / ratchet hubs.

i definitely think there is something different about how different hubs roll. the old rear formula on my kids bike just rolls for days. none of my new/ other rear hubs spin as long or as well?? its like that bike has free speed when you ride it. its really odd!. its got a quiet freehub (but it does click albeit quietly) and some wierd bushing arrangement in the freehub which is the only real difference i can work out to teh other hubs i have.

i tend to run a DH casing on teh rear as i also slice tyres. I have a slaughter DH on my HT for max rolling speed!

Narrower versions of the Minions? I use 2.3 DHR front and rear in EXO flavour and yet to find (unless it's really minging) that I've run out of grip. While they are the grippiest thing ever, I don't think in the UK anyone really needs 2.5WT DHF/DHR combo, do they?

plus you'll loose; what? The better part of half a kilo rolling weight

@continuity I think the TLDR is "I wish 2.4 rekons were available with DD" lol

@VanHalen The Pro 4s are definitely far draggier then my shimano hub (both use pawls) when the bikes upside down, and you can feel it when spinning the axles on their own. No idea how much that impacts actual riding though

@nickc I think 2.3s would be a bit square on 30mm rims. Theyre great but I've had trouble with the cornering knobs contacting the ground on flat surfaces. The 2.4-2.5s really make a difference to the ride quality on a hardtail as well.

@wr404. I've run them on Roval carbon rims at 30mm and now on DT EX471, (internal of 25mm) and honestly i think the squared off "issue" is over-stated, but if you won't be convinced off the 2.5WTs than I guess you're looking at changing the wheel package.

@nickc I've got a spare 2.3 aggressor that I tried, but the cornering knobs ended up getting nuked pretty quickly unfortunately

Yeah, I've noticed that Aggressors aren't nearly as robust as DHRII

Aren't you all a burly bunch. Probably younger and braver than me.

I am currently weighing in around 90kgs (ok a little but not a lot higher) and rolling around on a 2.4 Rekon at the front and a 2.35 Rekon Race at the back. This on a Transition Spur. I've found it to have enough grip for me on the descents and to be light enough for the climbs. Also not too draggy.

I am perhaps more focussed on all round pace than smashing the descents or indeed the climbs but will get around most trails fairly comfortably providing I steer clear of the the harsher enduro lines.

For wheels I am using some carbon rims from sixth element.