[Closed] What's with people racing 'challenge' events? Or just me that isn't? Discuss

I raised this very concern last week on this here forum in discussing the Highland 400.
http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/worth-keeping-an-eye-on-httpwwwhighlandtrailnet
All those rules and regulations for a ride in the country....

Or is it the same situation as the [s]Strava lot who are currently digging shortcuts through all the corners of my local descents so that they can keep up with the actual fast riders...[/s] Daily Wail and it's lazy journalism

Right then, challenges - do they record your time? If so it can be a race feel to people. People are competitive and like to compete. Was it explicitly announced that it was not a race at the start, were people told off for trying too hard?

As for the random strava hating you lobbed in there, shit riders have been cutting corners for years, it's a bit about trying to keep up but it's more about not having the skills to ride round them. Been going on longer than strava just recently people seem to want to use that as "New" evidence.

oh and from the XC Racer blurb

MALHAM TARN TRACK ATTACK
28TH APRIL 2013

Run by the National Trust in conjunction with Craven College.

A challenging XC mountain bike race across parts of the beautiful Yorkshire Dales near Malham Tarn.

One amazing 40km course, one category.

For those who are pure at heart and out there just to ride an amazing course in one of the most beautiful parts of the UK - the organisers have kept it simple, there will be toilets and a car park (and probably a National Trust stand somewhere) and event marshals are placed around the course.

Race times: Staggered between 9am and 10am, registration at 8am

Categories: One category

If it's not a race why does it mention race so much?

Because real racing is about putting your ego on the line, about not being scared to fail, about giving it everything you have and still losing. Sportives, challenges and all this other crap are not racing, just the watered down, middle class nicey-nicey version.

Strava? I've shit 'em.

I'm fine with the event itself not being organised as a race, but if people want a race, then why not enter one?

I'm fine with the event itself not being organised as a race, but if people want a race, then why not enter one?

A challenging XC mountain bike race across parts of the beautiful Yorkshire Dales near Malham Tarn.

Race times: Staggered between 9am and 10am, registration at 8am

Categories: One category

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck?

This is the same Craven college lot who have organised a few races in the past, I'd just accept that this was always intended as a race and not a casual jolly in the hills.

These quotes are from the Malham Challenge thread this evening. They seem to show a lot of people who don't realise that, not only is it illegal and unsociable to race on bridleways,

organisers, either do know it's illegal or shouldn't be organising a race

but that's not what these events are for. Or is it just me?

this "faux" racing increases entries to these events there is no doubt about that (otherwise why go to the trouble of doing the results)

I'd be amazed if Whinlatter http://app.strava.com/activities/49915092 didn't cross a bridleway, promoted as a race here
http://singletrackmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/endurance-series-2013-one-month-to-go/

Colne Valley MTB Challenge "race report" here
http://singletrackmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/colne-valley-mountain-bike-challenge-report/

personnally I think the recent UCI story here
http://singletrackmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/more-uci-controversy-race-with-us-or-face-a-ban/

despite the issues with the fact it is the UCI (and all it's baggage) the threat of licence suspension will hopefully start to reduce the number of people entering events that essentially are going to damage mtb access. Imagine if you are a perfectly legal group of horse riders trying to use the bridleways at the same time as one of these "events", you essentially are trapped by the oncoming wave of riders "racing" towards you

as for strava, personally I would just suggest a high profile owner/ editor of a well known website and magazine email them and suggest that people should be able to get segments killed for illegal trail digging just as they can when they are dangerous

Like trying to argue the London Marathon isn't a race surely?

There will always be people who just aim to survive the marathon/100 mile sportive, and plenty of others who want to beat a certain time. And a few at the front end who just want to be first over the finish line.

I'm fine with the event itself not being organised as a race, but if people want a race, then why not enter one?

because they are hard, scary, and you feel out of place wearing baggies

some events try to manage this and encourage new people into "proper" racing

I would see these challenges as the new "fun running", the difference being that trying to get a PB in a running race isn't illegal on bridleways

Maybe people want something a bit like a race but a bit more sociable and not as competitive. I've no idea why some people get so upset/snotty about sportives and challenges.

Maybe people want something a bit like a race but a bit more sociable and not as competitive

don't ride as hard in a proper race and say hello to all the marshals, something you may have struggled to do at Whinlatter by all accounts due to their scarcity 😉

Are we now suggesting that all Strava segments on BWs should be cancelled as being illegal?

I'm either missing something but was it ever not advertised as a race? The blurb from XC Racer was fairly clear.

Organisers have a responsibility not to host races on BW's you can't expect participants to go and check everything out too. There is also a lot of snobbery about "proper racing" - an event with a defined course, start and end times is a race, just the same as the London Marathon is.

This was always planned as a race, I dont know anyone who entered it who hadnt entered it as a anything other than a race.

Are we now suggesting that all Strava segments on BWs should be cancelled as being illegal?

no, are you? Just because you are using strava it doesn't mean you can ride like a idiot, nor does it mean you necessarially are riding like an idiot if you are using starva to log a ride

For some people, just getting round will be a challenge. For others, the challenge will come from getting round quicker.

Also, does seem that a lot of these really are races, they've just filed off the serial numbers to get round legality issues. Or, in this case not even bothered.

Also, does seem that a lot of these really are races, they've just filed off the serial numbers to get round legality issues. Or, in this case not even bothered.

makes you wonder about their insurance if the activity itself essentially isn't legal

as if anyone gives a second thought about insurance i think some people are being a bit over sensitive about races.

we need more races on bridleways, roads etc to get the archaic laws changed as stupid as they are.

no, are you?

Well I wasn't the one who wrote the following, with the obvious implication...

trying to get a PB in a running race isn't illegal on bridleways

At this point it's squarely with the organisers for advertising something they couldn't/shouln't be. But in the end if you organise an event that has a course & timing asking people not to race is tough.

What defines not racing?
Can you be DQ'd for racing rather than riding?
Should all riders have a log book to show that at no point they get a PB?

@Chipps the "Discuss" may have been better aimed at the direction of off road events and where we as participants want them to go?

Apologies for going off on one a little at the start but lumping a bit of stava Hating/baiting in there is annoying, it's the current video nasty/Violent computer game/illegal immigrant that is causing the death of society. Forgetting that the people make the decisions not the technology. (in some cases the people ride faster than they should under no Strava influence what so ever and just can't ride - Marin trail 04 onwards had no distinguishable corners on some sections, whinlatter after it opened had loads of corners run through well before strava)

I've given up on this, it used to annoy me but now I just ignore it.
There not races, not in the pure sense, but if the participants want to call it a race then so be it. Sportive riders, charity riders have been calling events races for years, it's just the same.
Some of the things that define a race are.
Massed start, not spread over hours.
Licence required.
Held under a body such as BC, LVRC.
But an even more basic thing than any of that. Lining up at the start of a race, you look left you look right. Those blokes next to you are there for one thing only, to win at your expense.

As with sportives it is very difficult to find regular races of the type offered in events. Most races are of the short xc type not 50-60 mile off road or 100+ on the road.

There does seem to be a crowd of people always trying to tell people it is not a proper race but they are generally drowned out by the noise of people having fun.

If I was Mr Nasty I'd start pulling riders from these events for being too slow.
"The leader went through twenty minutes ago, sorry but the course is closed now."
Like they do in races.

As an aside, there are so many people wanting to race (though I'm talking road) that our local circuit might have to put on another weekly race just for 4th cats.
And my local crits used to struggle to see 40 riders, now we're up to 80 and that's first come first served.
The MTB race world has a ready made audience, it's gagging for people to organise plenty of proper racing.

There is lots of racing organised. Just check out xc racer for the events listings

If you want to ride lots rather than a short blast why not enter a 6 hour solo as a start

Seem to be billed and widely accepted as a race judging by a quick google, I would have certainly turned up looking to give it 100% based on that information

Any event,..... Whether its called a challenge or anything else..... That has times recorded and then published ... Has to be a race at some level......

The word Challenge is just to (slightly) circumvent officialdom!

Of course people are going to race (each other/themselves)if you make them pay to enter and time their efforts. Why else would you pay, just to go for a ride?

Does it matter?
I mean, I'm quite competitive and like to race and my own personal opinion is that if you pay to enter, you get issued a number and all entrants are timed; it's a race.
That said, if people want to treat it as a challenge, ride around with mates and experience cycling in a different part of the country why would that bother me?

Is the same not true the other way round? The guys racing aren't causing the guys 'riding' any trouble are they?

Maybe people want something a bit like a race but a bit more sociable and not as competitive

don't ride as hard in a proper race and say hello to all the marshals, something you may have struggled to do at Whinlatter by all accounts due to their scarcity

Maybe people don't want to be surrounded by the kind of snobby people who think that sportives and challenges are beneath them. 😉

It's more like the organisers possibly don't know about the special 'code' that events need to use when they're racing on BWs, and heavily described it as a 'race' in their blurb.

If they'd have called it a challenge or whatever, then everyone would have turned up and raced and this thread wouldn't be here.

It was a pretty small event (100 riders?), with a real effort made to avoid bunching, so I'm not too bothered about the impact, especially as the riders were probably the only ones loony enough to be out in those conditions.

oldgit - Member
There not races, not in the pure sense, but if the participants want to call it a race then so be it.
Some of the things that define a race are.
Massed start, not spread over hours.
Licence required.
Held under a body such as BC, LVRC.
But an even more basic thing than any of that. Lining up at the start of a race, you look left you look right. Those blokes next to you are there for one thing only, to win at your expense.

So the (for example) Midlands XC races that I do aren't actually races? You don't need a license, only maybe 10 out of 60 starters in each category have any hope of winning. I'd better let the organisers know they are mis-selling :o)

Some of the things that define a race are.
Massed start, not spread over hours.
Licence required.
Held under a body such as BC, LVRC.
But an even more basic thing than any of that. Lining up at the start of a race, you look left you look right. Those blokes next to you are there for one thing only, to win at your expense.

I rode the wiggle ups and downs on Saturday. Great event, really well organised and was nice to see a different area of the country.

I didn't set out to race everyone else, I just wanted to see how fast I could cover the 50km distance. Which, as far as I am aware, is the idea behind having timing chips on all of the riders (that and being able to see how many are missing). There wasn't much antisocial overtaking (at least not on my part anyway).

It did make me realised two things though. (1) I would like to enter a race and (2) overtaking people is immensely satisfying.

Some of the things that define a race are.
Massed start, not spread over hours.

Time trials are most definitely races but don't meet this definition.

On the subject of time trials, this discipline really exists due to old law that made it illegal to race on UK roads. Organisers found a way around it by making it a bunch of folk having a 'ride'. Is there a significant difference between this and the 'races' discussed above and should we now be without time trials due to their illegal beginnings?

In one breath people bemoan the nanny state culture of insurance and rules then in the other act in horror when rules are bent for people's enjoyment.

Why does it particularly bother if people are 'racing' or riding. If it doesn't spoil your enjoyment then why worry?

Surely the beauty of evens like sportives is that they cater for different interests. And for that reason, good for them. The only differences with Mtb is whether the BW issue complicates things or not. It they compromise future use of BW then that is a bad ing. Otherwise great.

Crickey, you get some mighty willies being waved at times.

You seem to find your readrship contemptible, this and the Mark twitter incident...

You've just quoted a load of users and potential subsribers, given them a bit of ritual humiliation and this event was very [u]clearly[/u] billed as a race

[img] [/img]

TBH 3 of us entered the Malham thing for a 'challenge' just to get some 'faster than social ride' pace into a 25 miler.

however just surviving, let alone racing seem to be the order of the day yesterday.

and as for utilising BW's, maybe thats why they limited the entries to just 100 max.

I think if some wnat to try for KOM, then good on em as long as it does not affect the rest of us.

I came across this event and thought 'oh this looks interesting' I presumed with the national trust link that some of the course would be on private land' anyhow there was a limit to 100 riders with a staggered start. 10 riders every 5 mins. so it wasn't 300 riders all ploughing down the bridleways. before people got lost it was groups of 10 strung out over a mile or so. a 9 o'clock Sunday start meant it was quite on the lanes & paths too. I know a lot of riders that turned up who are very good riders & racers.I also spoke to a few chaps who where 'just doing it for the crack' I personally ride, race, do 'challenges' etc etc. to me a 'challenge' is a timed race (that isn't pushed as a 'race' due to legal reasons).

Perhaps my point is that there are scant few organisers in the UK organising 'proper' XC races. They go to the trouble of finding a venue (not that easy) where they can set up a decent course, marshal it and organise a race, with insurance, on a closed course. This lets riders go as balls-out as they want without worrying about ending up facing a horse bum round a corner.

If it's easy to organise a bridleway-based 'race' and call it a challenge, with less expense and legal obligations, then what's the incentive for regular race organisers?

Edit: And I have great respect for our readers, which is why I'm asking you all for your opinions. If it turns out that I have the wrong end of the stick, then I'll know. And if it's of concern to people, then I might warrant spending the time to research a proper article into the topic.

So the (for example) Midlands XC races that I do aren't actually races? You don't need a license, only maybe 10 out of 60 starters in each category have any hope of winning. I'd better let the organisers know they are mis-selling :o)

Quite right, races are only for seasoned, time-served old pros like Oldgit of this parish. Folk who've done their time, paid their dues and are there only to win. To my mind a race is only a race if, when you're standing on the startline - which must be white - you look left and right and to your side are blokes who's burning red steely-eyed gazes say only 'I would kill you and your children to finish just one place higher' - I say blokes because women's racing is mostly not 'real' racing.

Lastly, races are not races if the participants have spare tyres around their midriffs rather than slung around their shoulders. People may not agree with me, but to be honest, I don't that racing has been 'proper' since the early days of the Tour de France. Emphatically, the modern-day version is not a race, but some sort of glamorous multi-day sportive event for pampered show ponies.

More and more though racing is getting back to its routes in a Fight Club style, but I can't really tell you about that for obvious reasons etc... yada yada... 😉

Fair enough Chipps if

If it's easy to organise a bridleway-based 'race' and call it a challenge, with less expense and legal obligations, then what's the incentive for regular race organisers?

chipps - I work here
Perhaps my point is that there are scant few organisers in the UK organising 'proper' XC races. They go to the trouble of finding a venue (not that easy) where they can set up a decent course, marshal it and organise a race, with insurance, on a closed course. This lets riders go as balls-out as they want without worrying about ending up facing a horse bum round a corner.

Is that a problem though? Who for?

Having assisted with the organistaion of plenty of races in the past I do understand that point Chipps however a flat out XC race for five four mile laps and a 100km race across varied terrain are two totally different events.

The MTB race world has a ready made audience, it's gagging for people to organise plenty of proper racing.

Perhaps my point is that there are scant few organisers in the UK organising 'proper' XC races.

This is the problem in my opinion. I'm going to get all misty eyed now and hark back to the good ol' days, but when I were a lad growing up round here there were loads of local XC races, you could race near enough every weekend, the air was cleaner and I'm sure the grass greener too... But somehow that's all gone. There's a lot of road racing, but if I want to 'properly' race XC I have to travel all over the country to big events. The grass roots XC scene has all but died it seems. It's hardly covered in any of the mags (maybe MBUK still does but I never buy it anymore) and XCracer is predominantly southern based so pretty useless if you're based up north.

Maybe Singletrack could help folk in various parts of the country organise and promote some local XC racing? Get back to grass roots!

Does it matter?

Not if you can't perceive any potential problem from people running illegal races on bridleways.

It should be okay though, I mean its not as if there are any vociferous people around who would rather mountain bikes had less, rather than more, access to trails, is there?

EDIT: Also, should any of the "racers" have ploughed into a horse, a pedestrian or even a child's face, on a public bridleway, I wonder if the public liability insurance for this "challenge" would have paid out once they read the website as quoted above?

No, it doesn't matter at all....

If it's easy to organise a bridleway-based 'race' and call it a challenge, with less expense and legal obligations, then what's the incentive for regular race organisers?

Personaly I didn't stop to think if this race may be 'illegal' I presumed it was (especially with the national trust involved)...I also presumed it would be well marked and marshaled 😆

would I have paid my £7, turned up and raced if I knew it wasn't legal to do so....I'm not sure.

would I have entered if the race/challenge wasn't timed....probably not.

now I come to think about it I'm surprised there's not a lot more of MTB TT events (or maybe there are but they're hush hush)?

The original post strikes me as rather Talk Sport like, "such and such is so and so" just to raise a response from the audience, pretty lame to be honest.

If racing on BW's or crossing them during a race is illegal, can someone answer these queries:

1, Does Mountain Mayhem or any of the other endurance XC events cross one or use one at any point?
2, In the Gravity Enduro series are any of the sections where you move between trail sections in an allotted time on BW's (I may have this wrong, I do apologise)
3, If its advertised and sold as a race on British Cycling, why does this thread even exist?

Not if you can't perceive any potential problem from people running illegal races on bridleways.

If I recall the Whinlatter challenge route can't be a race as it crosses a BW [swear filter jackpot] how can that be anything other than a technicality that needs fixing by not making it a problem.

http://www.manxe2e.org/ Manx End to End - a race and a challenge with prizes and stuff. Great event well organised loads of local support riding on everything there is to ride on.

Perhaps it's time to start lobbying for the right to hold events with land owners permission on right of way. Open up the countryside properly.

I do see your point Chipps (even if it did seem very badly made with an example that was actually billed as a race) for me it goes back to good old fashioned competitiveness, no prize for second you might as well have been last. Winning is about coming first as a nation we need to remember that. Forget the prizes for tried really hard but came in 2 days after everybody else.

Perhaps my point is that there are scant few organisers in the UK organising 'proper' XC races.

Probably because not enough people are interested. The basic gist of these arguments seems to be 'I like 'proper' XC races, there's not enough of them, it's all the fault of the Strava obsessed posers who do Sportives for not being as hardcore as me'.

Oh, and is racing on BWs more illegal than riding on footpaths?

you get some mighty willies being waved at times

That's what racing is, and that's why it's different to pretend racing.

good old fashioned competitiveness, no prize for second you might as well have been last. Winning is about coming first as a nation we need to remember that. Forget the prizes for tried really hard but came in 2 days after everybody else.

Exactly.

The basic gist of these arguments seems to be 'I like proper XC races, there's not enough of them, it's all the fault of the Strava obsessed **** who do Sportives for [s]not being as hardcore as me[/s] not actually wanting to race because it's a bit too hard'.

..would be closer to my opinion.

If it's easy to organise a bridleway-based 'race' and call it a challenge, with less expense and legal obligations, then what's the incentive for regular race organisers?

Not a lot. Is that a problem?
The demise of the xc race started a long time be for the rise of the xc 'challenge'.

"Proper" XC racing like the Euros do, with lycra skinsuits, 100mm hardtails (probably 29ers) and peakless helmets? Seems to me that the MTB media in this country has been condemning that for years.

Why does it particularly bother if people are 'racing' or riding. If it doesn't spoil your enjoyment then why worry?

I woory because I have sat down with some of the people who if impacted by this type of event be writing very strong letter to the local council, NT and local landowners with every intent of using it as a case for reducing MTB access, they sit on the Local Access Forums and have long memories and bear grudges

and yes, I have seen what they send and the council responses

chipps - I work here
Perhaps my point is that there are scant few organisers in the UK organising 'proper' XC races. They go to the trouble of finding a venue (not that easy) where they can set up a decent course, marshal it and organise a race, with insurance, on a closed course. This lets riders go as balls-out as they want without worrying about ending up facing a horse bum round a corner.

I would love to compare the financials, paperwork, risk assessments, signage protocols etc for a "challenge" compared to a "mtb xc race" organised under BC rules

If it's easy to organise a bridleway-based 'race' and call it a challenge, with less expense and legal obligations, then what's the incentive for regular race organisers?

what are the incentives now?

The vast majority of sponsor money is going to the "challenges", they can use anywhere without paying landowners (or getting permission) and people are prepared to pay more to enter them. They gain large entries due to the "fun run/ challenge/ race" aspect where people choose how "competitive" or not they are. BC etc turn a blind eye as it is helping their "participation" figures. The reality is that it's a hostage to fortune which one day will go badly wrong

...and you can have both, you don't need to have events that are 'races' under the radar, you don't need to have events pretending to be races.

":1, Does Mountain Mayhem or any of the other endurance XC events cross one or use one at any point?"

Mayhem certainly never has, nor Sleepless. One of the problems with finding a 10 mile course anywhere in England and Wales is that lots of the country is blessed with bridleways, making racing along, or even crossing one, out of the question. That's why Mayhem has used private country estates for the last ten years. The Commonwealth Games at Rivington Pike couldn't use much of the land as there's a solid ring of bridleway around the top of the hill. Ironically, you can cross or use a footpath, with the owner's permission, but nothing short of an act of parliament is going to let you race on a bridleway.

I don't know about Enduros as much, but I'd assume that the liaison stages are on forest roads and probably bridleways. However those stages aren't timed and there's no prize for getting to the start of the next stage quickly.

crikey - some people don't like 'proper' racing. Why does it bother you so much/why is it any of your business?

'Middle-class racing' - FFS. So at a 'proper' XC race you only get manly men who've jut finished a 14 hour shift in the sawmill eh?

Crikey, may I ask what level you compete/race at? It would be interesting to hear from international standard racers and how they view developments at the lower skill/time available levels. Are you at that standard? Can you give a European race perspective as well? Does it differ?

Scotroutes, very true. The standard MTB attire seems quite different in Eu.

I love how the strava haterz get their diggs in about it killin racing as everyone is too soft. The top guys on strava here race national and international XCO.

It's easier to organise a sportive so people do, then people enter that doesn't make them soft, is it worse if they try? I'm guessing the guy at the front is.

I with a lot of other people use Strava as a logging, documenting and motivational tool. I'd love to race more but the events I like doing are few and far between. The local XC scene is sewn up and mostly run on INCREDIBLY DULL trails so not to scare the ROADIES WHO THINK THEY ARE MOUNTAIN BIKING. In the end the idea of being able to race a course over a staggered start appeals as I wouldn't have ot get held up by all the people who sprint up the first hill then get off or tripod past a rock or a twig.

Anyway enough people are confusing strava with racing (mostly people who are not doing either I suspect) There is a nice local Strava challenge going on in the south of the island 3 tracks all participants must be members of the local club so that they are insured, great following loads still turn up to the races though.

Oh, and is racing on BWs more illegal than riding on footpaths?

did you know that you can mtb race on/ across a footpath, you can't do that with a bridleway

sorry if it's been covered but does "trying for a personal best" differ from racing at all?

to me it would seem
racing = me and a mate/s riding shoulder to shoulder trying to be the first one to get to the end of the trail*
PB = riding quicker than usual.
are both viewed as the same in law and ergo illegal? How do road time trialers manage? or can you race on the road but not BW? if so why? both public access. Timed events seem much more PB kinda area than racey racey.

edit

did you know that you can mtb race on/ across a footpath, you can't do that with a bridleway

*doh! was thinking in XC mode, forgot that DH racing is all timed 🙄

I woory because I have sat down with some of the people who if impacted by this type of event be writing very strong letter to the local council, NT and local landowners with every intent of using it as a case for reducing MTB access, they sit on the Local Access Forums and have long memories and bear grudges

I haven't done the race/challenge, but looking on the website it's interesting to note that it is organised in conjunction with the NT.

I raced first in 'sport' and then in 'elite' mountain biking, and travelled around the UK to race in a couple of National series. I then raced cyclo-cross in the NW region, and in the regional champs. Then I did some fell running, then I did about 8-9 years of road racing in the UK and in Europe, mostly Belgium, bit in the Netherlands, bit in Mallorca.

I've no issue with people doing events, none.

My issue is with the idea that these events are 'racing'.

why is it any of your business?

I like to share my thoughts 😉

I recall the times when the UK had a massive XC race scene and I recall how it fell to bits; we seem to be at a similar point in time

when I entered I thought we will be given access to some interesting NT land, this was some of the appeal to me!

all this choose proper racing or be gay and ride challenges is a load of horse s##t. most people I know who race competitively also ride/race challenges, TT's, sportifs etc (each for various reasons)

What do you think were the reasons for it falling to bits Crikey?
I imagine the constant changes at to what organisation was responsible for xc races didn't help.
But I think a big problem is that bike technology has changed to the extent that not much more than basically riding round a field tested the skills on a 1990 mtb rider in the way that it no longer does on a bike 20 years newer.
Also the lack of club ethos in mtbing means that you don't get the grass roots organisation that say running clubs and road clubs have that keeps costs down.

Thanks crikey, I understand better. But within the "proper" race scene was there a hierachy of events? So would a TdF rider consider a racer in a minor event elsewhere in Europe still a "racer"?

FWIW - I think the race tag means different things to different people. I used to "race" triathlons and would collapse at the end having given it my all. Ditto XC runs in the winter. But I was never at the top of my age group and never a winner in that sense. So was I really "racing"? For me the race was against myself, my own plans and my direct peer group. For us, we were racing each other and it was for real. But for the guys at the head of the field we were an irrelevance and possibly mocked us over forties (I hate the middle-aged tag) men in lycra.

Apart from XTT tris, the only MTB event that I entered was a kind of sportive. My mates and I tried our hardest to achieve our best time possible, to beat each other (and to a lesser extent ensure gold category). Were we "racing"?

I woory because I have sat down with some of the people who if impacted by this type of event be writing very strong letter to the local council, NT and local landowners with every intent of using it as a case for reducing MTB access, they sit on the Local Access Forums and have long memories and bear grudges

I was dealing with Chipps' comment on how people treat the events, not how they are promoted. These are quite different arguments but the latter does create a culture for the former.

Wouldn't the easiest definition be that if it has timing then it's a race if it has no timing then it's a fun ride. Just scrap timing for everything that's not a race.

I know the definition is going to be a bit blurred by people uploading their times to strava after the event but anyone claiming to have 'won' because they have they are the quickest of the people that happen to have uploaded their times is pretty delusional. You're not the fastest, you're just the fastest that uses Strava. Big fish, small pond.

Ultimately we need races and we need fun rides or distance challenges, there will always be a few that take part in the fun rides that think they are racing but from my experience they are a pretty small percentage and are easily ignored.

There is a definite hierarchy of events, but a well defined one. The issue with challenges and sportives is that, in a relatively immature 'cycling scene' like the UK, or rather one which has died off then re-emerged, the sportives and challenges become the main focus rather than a stepping stone to racing.

As I say, my view is probably out of line with most peoples 😆

[quote=muppetWrangler ]Wouldn't the easiest definition be that if it has timing then it's a race if it has no timing then it's a fun ride. Just scrap timing for everything that's not a race.Exactly, but...
[quote=muppetWrangler ]You're not the fastest, you're just the fastest that uses StravaIsn't the thing about racing is that it's not necessarily the fastest person that wins?

I recall the times when the UK had a massive XC race scene and I recall how it fell to bits; we seem to be at a similar point in time

Enduro is where it's at now, suck it up princess. 🙂

Chucked this up for a non politic/practical brain dump
http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/what-events-do-people-wan-to-do

here you go - northwest xc racing at grass level https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/events?series_id=283 😉

Enduro is where it's at now, suck it up princess.

Grrr. 😆

cross racing is on the up but securing venues is apparently very challenging

I'll tell you why I don't race. I'm competitive, but I'm also not that fast. The thought of entering a race with minimal hope of getting anywhere near the leaders is thoroughly demoralising. Sure, I could train harder, but then this thing I do for fun and exercise threatens to become a chore. As such, the laid back nature of "challenges" appeals to me enormously. I'm under no illusion that it's a race, but I'll most certainly be competing with myself and those immediately around me, be it a road sportive or the Singletrack Weekender. I don't actually care whether it's called a race, a challenge or whatever.

I suspect people like me make up a much bigger chunk of "the market" than "serious racers". Supply and demand.

That said, I did note a comment above that I think it very relevant. I'm in a cycling club but, although there are plenty of keen mountain bikers in it, you might as well call it a road cycling club. There are plenty of events organised on the road, but nothing in the calendar for MTB i.e. the grass roots MTB racing is not supported. I suspect this is the same with most cycle clubs up and down the country.

The other relevant comment I picked up on was the one regarding bike technology. Racing around a field on a fully rigid MTB from 20 years ago is relatively safe. Nowadays most of us are throwing ourselves down some pretty serious terrain on extremely capable bikes and aren't interested in the "easy" stuff, hence the popularity of enduro. Can you imagine a mass-start event on this kind of terrain? Megavalanche? How many places in the UK would be suitable for something like that?

stilltortoise - Member

I'll tell you why I don't race. I'm competitive, but I'm also not that fast. The thought of entering a race with minimal hope of getting anywhere near the leaders is thoroughly demoralising.

Makes sense to me. I'm competitive with my mates and myself but not with the race leaders if you know what I mean. Some people seem to think that's a waste of time. But I had a bit of an epiphany when I realised that if you've got (frinstance, enduro or downhill) 300 racers, with perhaps 30 podium spots, the majority can't be in it to win it. And once I'd had that thought it made more sense to do races in the certain knowledge I'd finish bang in the middle, as long as it's [i]fun.[/i]

being competitive is all relative!

Perhaps I'm the only person who views these challenge events as a chance to wander around a bit of unfamiliar countryside with likeminded people, marshalls and medical backup and to stop for Haribo and a chat, often with a nice view

...whilst others might be busting a gut to keep up with you. This is the great thing about these big events. One man's "pootle" is another man's lung-buster. They're open to everyone.

how can;

a chance to wander around a bit of unfamiliar countryside with likeminded people, marshalls and medical backup and to stop for Haribo and a chat, often with a nice view

be interpreted as 'challenging' in an which way or form???