[Closed] Whats up with my XT brakes?

Interesting - I seem to get the same behaviour with my SLX version..

TM

Join the club with the rest of us! http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/zee-brake-persistent-bleed-problem

One of my M8000s was behaving like this until I bled it properly. The only problem I'm currently experiencing is delayed braking in sub zero temperatures, mostly when the rotors are also wet. Might try a different compound pad. Maybe ice-tech is just too effective!

Exactly the same with XTs, really dangerous! No matter how many times I bleed it (and I'm a mechanic). Back to Hopes very soon!

This was just one of several reasons why I ditched my 3 sets of XTRs for a return to Hope Tech.

Id also like to know what the answer to this is...

Have a set of SLX's on my winter bike which are without doubt the best brakes Iv ever owned (NOTE: previously hope fan boy - thought they were ace but think they are distinctly average now in comparison).

Liked the SLX so much I bought some XTR for my posh bike. No so happy with these - they are just as powerful as the SLX but suffer from the pump up problem stated above. The first pull goes almost all the way back to the bars and subsequent pulls are just about right. Power is good on both pulls with no sponginess at all so I find it hard to believe their is air in the system. But you always need to pull the lever twice which is annoying and run the lever further from the bars than I would like.

Both brakes bled by me using exactly the same method (syringe at the bottom - cup at the top and lots of lever pulling / waggling etc). Iv actually bled the XTR brakes twice as I assumed I made a mistake the first time but to no effect.

So I don't get it.

Anyone from Madison on this forum..?

I am getting the same on my SLX brakes, the rear only. Bled them numerous times, new pads.. Not sure what the next step is really.. bar new brakes. I like them other than that.

This has been discussed on here a lot there's clearly a problem. I'm sick of talking about my Saints so I won't.

I'll just say that on a DH bike, on an Alp, you really need to know that your brake lever won't hit the bar on the first pull. Constantly dabbing them to make sure they're still there is no way to ride.

I think this is most people's main gripe with Shimano brakes, too much lever throw no matter what you do and especially bad on initial pull. The other big downside is that they are throw away units and small parts can't be sourced. Shame really as otherwise they are really good.

Anyone wanting to ditch their "non-functioning" Shimano brakes can send them to me for [s]re-use[/s] disposal.

All of the above happen to me with my XT and SLX, although truth be told they haven't had a bleed since I bought them, but they have never great from the start.

They seem more powerful but I kind of wish I kept my Tech M4's that I sold on here, they felt awesome.

I must be one of the lucky people then. All my shimano brakes have worked fine. Bleeding them is a work of art...
Sounds to me that those of you who have to squeeze the leaver to the bar initially don't have enough fluid in the system.
I bleed them with the free stroke screw all the way out, lever as far from the bar as possible.
I also bleed them with the disc in rather than the yellow block, as the yellow block pushes the pistons in in my experience.
This allows you to get as much fluid in the system as possible..

Push as much fluid up to the lever from the caliper with a syringe as possible and suck back down...don't empty the reservoir!
You'll be surprise how much air is sucked out... Do this visa versa a few times..
Once you've pumped the fluid back up to the lever, squeeze it and release. Repeat until bubbles don't come out the port. Change the lever angle also while doing this..
Tap the caples with something to release any trapped air..

I get the same on my rear, which is a mixture of Saint lever and zee calibre, when the pads are starting to wear . However as soon as I swap the pads out all is right again. Looking at the pads taken out they're not as worn down as I would expect to replace them, but not too far off and as I use cheapo super star pads it's not an issue

The problem is no matter how meticulous you are with your set up and how many hours you spend bleeding and tinkering, you get them all fitted and they do exactly the same. Some sets work and some don't.

4 sets of Shimano brakes in this house (now reduced to 3). Years of experience as a bike shop and home mechanic. Absolutely certain at this point that my Saints are just a dud set. I wish I'd sent them straight back instead of assuming it was a set up problem and faffing with them after every ride.

Goldigger,

It's not as simple as that, and there is a chance that some of the people here have some idea how to bleed them properly.

Here I have XTs, SLXs and Zees. The XTs are absolutely spot on, constant and very easy to bleed (even when cutting corners). The Zees are ok for the most part, back isn't perfect though and I think the master cylinder is going after around a dozen rides (definitely looks oily around the linkage in the lever). The SLXs are woeful, spent hours bleeding on Friday (expertly to Epic's instructions to take me out of the equation, no bite point adjust on SLX either remember) and they still aren't up to much. Have previously had an SLX replaced under warranty for the master cylinder as well.

It's almost like the master cylinder itself is introducing air into the system, hence why one more pull of the lever send the air to the reservoir. That can't be the case without oil coming out of somewhere though

Yep, just the same with my SLX too. They work but that initial lever pump is disconcerting!!

And just to prove the point, my SLX's are mint. By far the best balance or power, reliability and price of any brake I've ever had.

Never had this with the 4-5 sets of deore I've owned. I'd thoroughly clean around the pistons, make sure it's all bled properly (with the pistons pumped partially out as mentioned above) and see how that goes.

Had one set of XTs do this. Another set of XTs and a set of Zees are spot on though.

Either there are lots of us who can't consistently set up/bleed Shimano brakes or their QC is definitely a bit iffy...

As I said above I spent years working in a bike shop where you spend most of your time bringing absolute turds back from the grave. I've laboured over hundreds of sets of disc brakes. There is almost nothing I can't fix or bodge. I have done literally everything I can think of to make my Saints work and they won't have it.

(Just for those people who still think we just need to bleed our faulty brakes properly)

no issue with my previous SLX, my current Zee or my son's SLX either.

Legend, i agree its possible there are faulty units leaving the factory..

If the lever is returning slowly, id also suspect a sticky piston. Alternatively if the hose has been shortened and the cuts not clean, I've noticed that the white inner sometimes can block the hole. Possible its blocked/slightly blocked after pushing the barb in..
Just some ideas...

Sorry mate, it's nothing to do with the lever returning slowly. Lever speed is absolutely fine, it's the lever coming back to the bar in the first pull that's the problem. It's very Avid-esque except that it's predictable

Could the calliper seal be too springy?...pulling the piston too far back from the disc each time you release the lever? But maybe 2 quick pulls of the lever in succession introduce more fluid from the reservoir which allows the brake to bite on the second attempt. Then the extra fluid is pushed back to the reservoir by the force of the returning seal when the lever is released.

This could be crap but the behaviour is so predictable it must be possible to work out what is going on

Sorry guys but this has to be done.

"Just bin them and put on some Guides, job done."

😉

ahahahahahahahahaha!

Never has "replace with Avids" been a valid solution to any problem

legend - Member

ahahahahahahahahaha!

Never has "replace with Avids" been a valid solution to any problem

Not even world poverty? 😉

My Shimano brakes didn't like my old avid rotors. No amount of bleeding could get a constant feel changed to superstar disks things got much better

One set do, the others don't. My m4's need a little work otherwise they would be back on.
Bled by me and a couple of times in the LBS properly. Just got used to the double pull these days. As much as you expect from cheap brakes, I think a lot gets overlooked due to the price.

Personally, I've not experienced this issue (yet) with either my XT (3 years) or Deore (2 years old), however whilst reading the experiences above, my initial thought was air in the system either being drawn in through a defective seal, or insufficient fluid from the get go.

Given the pedigree of some of the posters above, lets discount the insufficient fluid and also the patience aspect of bleeding. The former, given there was a completely filled system to start with, would mean that fluid has to escape to accommodate space for the air, in which case a leak would have be present and identifiable. IIRC, most cases above suggest there are no identifiable leaks, which then leaves the potential of contaminated fluid as being a reason for air present in an otherwise fully filled and sealed system.

I'm no expert on mineral fluids but the immediate questions that spring to mind are how old is the Shimano fluid that is being used? Does the Shimano fluid absorb moisture ( in the same way as say normal DOT spec brake fluid does) over time? Was there a faulty batch of fluid? Are there alternative grades of mineral oil that can be used?

Apologies if these questions have been asked before, but fresh pair of eyes and all that.

I just replaced a rear xt with the exact fault as people describe above. I gave up constantly trying to bleed then finding after a few pulls the lever would go to the bar again. The mechanic at fod couldn't figure out what was wrong either. I just bought a new rear and will see how that goes.
Last year I blew a seal on the caliper of a rear slx. That was more obvious though as oil was leaking from it visibly.
Shimano brakes when working seem great, but they have serious reliability issues.
I wonder if the new models are any better?

I'm no expert on mineral fluids but the immediate questions that spring to mind are how old is the Shimano fluid that is being used?

Everything from brand new, to quite old. Makes naff all difference. Can use the same fluid in the XTs with no issue

Does the Shimano fluid absorb moisture ( in the same way as say normal DOT spec brake fluid does) over time?

No. Mineral fluid doesn't.
I have similar issues with my rear XT m785 and usually I get a rock solid bleed with my usual technique.
Given up with it now and perhaps mistakenly bought a new XT m8000.

Also experienced this, with a couple of sets of XTR trails. Both were warrantied, one came back fine, and are on my wife's junk bike now, the other set got warrantied again, for the same issue, then sold.

It's a more common issue than I think people realise, Google Shimano Inconsistent lever feel, there are lots of other bike forums, with lots of other people complaining. I had a Madison Tech guy at a race try & 'blame' it on a non Shimano rotor a few years ago, which was bolleaux, so I went & put the spare wheelset on, with Shimano rotors & took it back.

I replaced mine with some Race E4's - which work, every time I pull the lever. Not nice when racing & wondering if your brakes will work when you pull the lever. Reminds me of my old Fomula's 🙂

not had a problem with my zee/slx setup. mate has an slx setup that did this until we bled them 3 or 4 times on the trot...now they work fine

My Zee's are working fine, but when I changed the pads over Xmas I gave them a quick bleed.

The oil was black and very viscous, after about 6 months riding. I obviosuly need to take into account the shelf life of mineral oil.

I have/had this on a rear OEM deore. I bled the brake a handful of times using different methods and brands of oil, never felt as good as the front and suffered the pumping up problem. Tried cleaning the caliper to within an inch of its life, but I also had a sticky/onesided piston problem.

I replaced the lever thinking it was maybe a seal in there allowing fluid passed, with a after market deore lever and bled again this time with shimano fluid (from epic, if that's actually shimano fluid?), flushing the system until I was sure I'd cleared out all the old crap fluid and black stuff. This helped a bit, although the second pump of the lever still bit a bit further from the bar, but not as much as before.

I then took the caliper to bits and popped the pistons out. I found in the side where I was getting piston stiction the seal was rolled/twisted in its seating so reseated it properly (although this may have happened when taking them out). With the caliper in bits I gave everything a good clean and then lube up with brake fluid.

Bolted it all back together, bled it, centered it and the lever-feel of the rear brake was now almost as good as the front. I'm going to suggest that the slight difference in feel now equates to the wear on the pads and rotor on the rear which is fairly heavy compared to front's wear.

Anyway seems like a PITA and I haven't taken the bike out on the trails yet... so it'll probably break again the first time I take it out.

What frustrates me is that shimano don't seem to be addressing the issue, which is obviously a big one as so many people are suffering the same/similar issues. They just bring out the same brake with a different graphic or a chromed top cap...

As it's the rear one on my bike and I know I'm guilty of rear brake bias and dragging when it gets steep and scary, I reckon it's probably related to heat build up. Although I could speculate for hours on what exactly is going on I have no knowledge of fluid dynamics, heat transfer and/or metal expansion, so I wont.

Hope that helps.

I just emailed Madison and asked very politely if there's any way I can fix my brakes. I also asked if they were aware of this very widespread problem.

How badly will they blow me off?

My Saints cost a bloody fortune as well. In a misguided attempt to support my local bike shop I paid full retail. I turned up when the boss was there to look over my mates shoulder and couldn't get any wriggle room on the price. Lesson learned.

The oil was black and very viscous, after about 6 months riding. I obviously need to take into account the shelf life of mineral oil

There may be a clue here.
I've had black fluid at the lever end on two occasions. Evident when bleeding bottom-up. It seems to coincide with the onset of inconsistent lever feel.
I strongly suspect the cause is deterioration of the seal in the lever.
In use, through the early part of the stroke, the seal passes over the bleed holes that connect the master cylinder and its reservoir. My suspicion is that the seal is suffering a cheese-grater effect when passing over these holes and the black fluid is a result of this.

Another symptom is that the system often resists bleeding bottom-up. The free stoke adjuster is wound back but the lever doesn't naturally return to the very start of its travel. I suspect the seal on the piston is still blocking those transfer ports to the reservoir.

How badly will they blow me off?

I'd bet on getting completely ignored

Just send then back, common & well known problem. Just had an older xt replaced with the brand new one, so fingers crossed.

Other way around with me. My SLX seem very good and bleed extremely easy (only the front has needed a top up after 1000 miles) and to be fair I've had no trouble at all with them. No inconsistent braking on them.

My XT rear particularly needs the "pull it just to make sure it's there before you brake properly" thing quite often. The XT rear needs regular mini bleeds to feel right but I've not tried the trick of unscrewing the free stroke adjust before bleeding to allow me to overfill slightly and increase the "pressure" later. I've even had it bled by my LBS in case it was a home-mechanic-issue and that made no difference.

I used to have it when the pads wore down to a certain point the XTs would become weird feeling and I'd just put new pads in and it would be fine again. I've since realised it's more than that because the SLX brakes just feel loads better under my fingers throughout the pad life.

Been thinking I'd do a proper full bleed on the rear XT really soon as I did a mini bleed and fitted new pads recently and it's gone a bit rubbish again.

My deore brakes were perfect i should add. Really regret selling them.

hhmmm - interesting. My M9020 XTRs did this from new. Got one bleed at the bike shop to no avail. I just kinda got used to it.

What I was wondering at the time was whether it was a mechanical issue as opposed to hydraulic, my reasoning being...

I think these brakes have a Servowave feature? Although no Googling ever gave me any good answers. To my thoughts Servowave means the initial lever pull gives low mechanical advantage and quick pad travel to quickly get to the bite point and then on contact changes to high mechanical advantage for strong braking. The change is due I think to a pin or pivot point shuttling across when the load comes on. So I wondered if the 'switch' between modes got stuck sometimes??? My brakes always needed the initial pull which gave long lever travel, then quick release and then on reapplication gave good braking with the lever a bit further from the bar.

Don't know if there's anything in that or not. Maybe I'm just getting confused with ancient Shimano cable pull brakes which definitely did this and the mechanism was clear to see:

[url= http://faqload.com/faqs/bicycle-components/brakes/xtr-servo-wave-brake-adjustment ]http://faqload.com/faqs/bicycle-components/brakes/xtr-servo-wave-brake-adjustment[/url]

My brakes have never felt like they actually needed a bleed - they are not spongy as if there's air in the system...

Mine do this too!

I've bled them multiple times, same issue.

Also bled some road hydraulics in the same way and they are fine.

I think both SLX and XT have Servowave too.

On the XT rear I tend to have to run the rear leaver further away from the bar than I'd like as that's the only way it can't possibly end up pulling to the bar and usually that's enough leaver throw to have bite where I expect it to be which suggests servo wave is in action. On the SLX I can position the leaver where I want and it'll always work ok.

I may ask at my LBS when I next go in.

If you're having a problem I suggest you email Madison to inform them of it. I got a reply and apparently they're not aware of any issues. Which is odd because if you Google it you can find dozens of discussions just like this one.

I'm really getting the arsehole with this now - mine aren't the M8000 but they're brand new, multiple bleeds and they're woefully inconsistent - first pull almost now power, second a bit better, third rock hard - pretty much where you want them - was riding a horribly slippery Caffel at the weekend, had to take evasive action on one section and ride out of a turn and into the trees because I was never going to make it at the speed I was going at, later on I'm fighting a high side when the front locked without warning. I took to pumping them up and then riding with the lightest of brake drag on to hold pressure.

To me it feels like the pads aren't self-adjusting and want to go back to fully open even when the pads are part-worn, there's certainly a lot of light between them compared to my Deores which are perfect.

I am sending this thread to Madison on Facebook and see what they have to say.... I almost had a horrendous crash today as pulled the brakes to stop rapidly and nothing happened... to have to pump the brakes in advance of when I need them is not right!

[img] [/img]

OP here, i cant believe how common this problem is! I thougt it would be a simple fix! Has anybody actually had this problem and solved it (without buying new Brakes)?

Has anybody actually had this problem and solved it (without buying new Brakes)?

From Madisons reply to me;

There is no re-build kit available, so it would be a case of purchasing new parts to try and resolve the issue.

In other words, you pays yer money you takes yer chance.

No more Shimano brakes for me.

I brought them 10 months ago from CRC and this Problem has been from new. Warranty job?

Yeah go for it. I left mine too long because I rarely use the DH bike and thought I'd be able to fix them. Bit gutted now as they're in near mint condition but technically a write off.

I love how polarised this thread is to all the Hope vs Shimano, or SRAM Guide vs Shimano.

I've had all my sets of Shimanos do this, and lots gone back under warranty. Nothing would make me use them again, total pain to own and disposable.

My Hope e4s never did anything that would possibly injure or kill me, and neither have my Guides.

I'd argue a failure mode that has a good amount of anecdotal evidence, and that is serious enough to injure needs investigation by Shimano.

I'd urge those with the same issue to file a complaint, to ensure its recorded and dealt with.

This is odd I thought the latest shimano xts 'just work' and were the best thing since sliced bread?

2 year warranty btw. Get them returned whilst the weather's shite.

I've got 2 pairs of SLX (latest model) and one set was doing this.

Bled them with the Epic Bleed Solutions kit. (as part of the process, when I removed the pads I realised they were all right down)
Post-bleed, they're rock solid.

EBS FTW.

I don't get the random level pull issue but i do get the upside down issue.

If the bike is upside down for a period then the levers will pull to the bar a couple of times.

I need to bleed them properly.

Bled them with the Epic Bleed Solutions kit. (as part of the process, when I removed the pads I realised they were all right down)
Post-bleed, they're rock solid.

EBS FTW.

i agree...i use the Epic bleed kit and never had a problem yet. mates brakes did have a problem but a good couple of bleeds using the Epic kit forced some nasty looking brake fluid out which was then replaced by some genuine shimano mineral oil. they work perfectly now.

2 year warranty btw. Get them returned whilst the weather's shite.

again i agree with this....if you have an issue that doesn't seem to sort itself with a bleed, send them back...that's what the warranty is there for
if you have XTR kit then its covered by a 3 year warranty

Mine are fine. Wonder if cold and damp/wet affect them? Dry and warm here. Of course, I've just jinxed myself, no doubt.

How do the people who have issues use the Free Stroke (or screw of pointlessness)? Seems to do bugger all for me.

i agree...i use the Epic bleed kit and never had a problem yet. mates brakes did have a problem but a good couple of bleeds using the Epic kit forced some nasty looking brake fluid out which was then replaced by some genuine shimano mineral oil. they work perfectly now.

I'll be that guy and disagree. EBS kit in action here, definitely better than the Shimano method but still not great. The fact that it needed "a couple of bleeds" tell you a lot too. Older Shimanos took one 5-10min bleed* and they'd go for years.

Also, does anyone else get a worse bleed when using the yellow piston spacer?

*top down only and half the time you just had to open the bleed nipple and leave it for a while

Also, does anyone else get a worse bleed when using the yellow piston spacer?

*top down only and half the time you just had to open the bleed nipple and leave it for a while

On previous generation Shimano brakes (with no method of adjusting lever travel) I use a thinner, hand-made spacer. It allows a certain amount of "over-fill" to move the bite point out.

Edit: that's for my own bikes because I like it that way.

Watching this thread with interest....
I've bled quite a few sets of Shimano brakes for friends and my own, using the Epic kit and whilst all but one set have been fine , one set did keep coming back with "it's gone spongy again" ... Although 3rd time lucky might have got it.
Must admit I don't use Shimano fluid or the yellow spacer I found the Green bottle opener key ring MBR gave away a couple of years ago fits Shimano and Hope callipers perfectly.

Also, does anyone else get a worse bleed when using the yellow piston spacer?

*top down only and half the time you just had to open the bleed nipple and leave it for a while

i use the yellow block for my front zee but i wasnt sent one for my rear slx....so i use about 4 1pence coins wrapped in tape....does the job

i usually bleed form both ends...i first start at the caliper and use the srynge to force the fluid up the brake and out of the lever reservoir and into the big syringe thats screwed into the lever. i tap the caliper, hose and lever to knock out any air bubbles. i then fill the top syringe with fluid and let it drain through the brake from lever to caliper and out though the bleed port valve. again i will tap the lever, hose and caliper to knock out any air. i then repeat this process if needs be until the brake feel and lever movement is right. on my mates i had to do this about 4 times....took about 30 minutes per brake but it was worth it in the end.

dont use the weldtite mineral oil like my mate did....absolutely useless!!

I found this with a set of second hand xts, but have had no problems with deores or slx on mine or the other halfs bikes.

The newer shimano brakes do seem to be a lot more susceptible to pad wear though- my older 775s and 765s could both be into the backing pad and they'd still feel the same (if conditions were bad enough you hadn't noticed by then) but the newer ones seem to need changing at the stated wear point or they feel off, which is shocking!

email Madison to inform them of it. I got a reply and apparently they're not aware of any issues.

That's why on a daily bases they replace faulty shimano brakes without question, because they are not aware of any issues.

I have become a high level expert on the tricks of bleeding shimano brakes and even fitted goodridge hoses and bled them vertically, left them overnight and then did mini bleed on the bike. The result was a superb feeling brake with tonnes of power and a consistent lever feel................for about 2 rides, then back to the same problem.

I think back to Hope for me because failed but cheap is useless in the middle of the mountains. Would much prefer Hope to produce a powerful 2 pot brake as I always find the 4 piston stuff to be fiddely and less reliable.

Hope to produce a powerful 2 pot brake

do you have to run the full-retard vented rotor with the V2?

I really want to run the shimano fluid, royal blood and others through a GC-FID and see how different they are in composition. There's obvious difference in viscosity of the green cyclo stuff and the shimano fluid. Higher viscosity would suggest longer carbon chains and with that a higher boiling point, but Shminano claim that their mineral oil is the highest boiling point, despite it being so fluid.

Read an article once where they had all the boiling points, cant remember where it was though. They had all the brake companies, all talking about mineral oils and dot fluids etc. Why you shouldn't put royal blood in shimanos and vice versa.

do you have to run the full-retard vented rotor with the V2?

JackHammer
[url= http://www.bikerumor.com/2013/04/11/tech-speak-brake-fluid-break-down-and-implications-for-road-disc-updated/ ]This one?:[/url]

Ecky-Thump - Member

JackHammer
This one?:

Well, I'm a fuggin idiot - I've been letting the free stroke screw out to bring the bite point out. Should have read the destructions.

Total toss bag.

Thats the one Ecky, was just about to post the link.

There's a few 'I know better than Shimano' types who could do with reading it!

I had this on my xt's for ages. Then, as I was trying out 27.5+, I dropped in wheels with some cheap and nasty discs. Low and behold problem gone. Ice tech discs out and some cheap discs that were marginally thicker installed.

The bike that the ice tech went onto (with xt brakes also) now has a slightly iffy initial pull

JackHammer
This one?:

Yeah that's it!

Also there's some stuff on epic bleed solutions website.