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Built up my new Kona Dawg at the weekend and noticed a strange threaded hole...
It can be seen in this pic just under the front mech clamp (not my frame but same unidentified hole):
[img] 
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Anyone know what its for?!? 😯
clutch plate cover
The optional sidecar.
[Edit: damn, too slow. What's that brake arm thing supposed to do then?]
Oh yeah!
[img] 
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blimey, there's a lot going on on the back of that bike eh.
Anti-overside wang-flapping protector stud.
What's that brake arm thing supposed to do then?
Make the brake work almost as well as if it's on a bike with a proper 4 bar back end.
ploy to knock 100 grams off last years model ?
Make the brake work almost as well as if it's on a bike with a proper 4 bar back end.
Heh, I see, thanks! 🙂
It's for the flux capacitor
Whoah, that CoilAir posted by dezb is a bit of a dawg!
OP - lets see some more pics of your bike then.
mrjmt - MemberBuilt up my new Kona Dawg at the weekend and noticed a strange threaded hole...
Where did you get the frame from?
I really enjoyed the play about I had one a few years ago.
Make the brake work almost as well as if it's on a bike with a proper 4 bar back end.
Think you will find it is a proper four bar back end.
OP - lets see some more pics of your bike then.
Thats not my bike, i've got one pic on my phone, i'll find somewhere to host it and post it up.
Where did you get the frame from?
I really enjoyed the play about I had one a few years ago.
From CRC in their half price kona frames thing theyve got at the moment.
Hope this works...
[IMG] 
[/IMG]
I know the green hoses don't go, just waiting for a little more cash flow to change them!
It's for the flux capacitor
Or more accurately the faux compensator
Think you will find it is a proper four bar back end.
Ahh I think this is a common misconception, let me help you to sort it out.
Whilst I can't see properly on the white bike, the green bike above is defo a single pivot. There is on straight unpivoted [b]bar[/b] between the frame and the back wheel, therefore the back wheel will follow a circular arc whose radius is fixed at the length of that [b]bar[/b]. All them other pivots will just change how the shock is compressed.
Think you will find it is a proper [s]four[/s] faux bar back end.
F[s]au[/s]ixed that for you
it's not tho is it? It's a faux bar, no pivot on the chainstay. AKA single pivot with linkage driven shock albeit now it looks like (from dezBs pic) a floating system now ala trekThink you will find it is a proper four bar back end.
edit sorry slow typist here
Excellent, all the arguing about the linkage means nobody has noticed the amount of bird poop on my drive! 😆
nobody has noticed the amount of bird poop on my drive
Oh - I thought it was a bike.
it's not tho is it?
Err no it is. Its the most simple version of the four bar design.
http://mtobikes.com/four-bar-linkage/
The most basic four bar linkage design is the ‘Faux Bar’
Oh look, you're wrong.
Luckily the people on here with brains don't need to visit a website to know that its actually wrong. That makes you and the author of that site wrong. Although in his defence he states that "This linkage still has the axle mounted on a chainstay which is directly mounted to the mainframe via a pivot, exactly the same as a single pivot design, and so will have the same axle path characteristics"
Which in anyone else's language makes it a single pivot. Although we will forgive you as some people like to call a faux bar a four bar, even though its not. The clue is in the title (its the faux bit in case you missed that)..
Anyway your link reminds me of this:
“The trouble with quotes on the internet is that it’s difficult to discern whether or not they are genuine.”
? Abraham Lincoln 1843
faux - french for false.
i.e. its a false.
its a four bar fsr wanna be ( a single pivot linkage driven bike)
Own a Kona by any chance, flow? Getting all defensive?
"people like to call a faux bar a four bar, even though its not"
Unhelpfully I think this also includes Kona, or at least their marketing/advertising department
[i]Think you will find it is a proper four bar back end. [/i]
Its not. Its effectively a single pivot with a linkage driven shock.
However its so close to a 4-bar that nobody really notices the difference.
Nice bike. Enjoy it.
Such a promising thread title with such disappointing content 😉
James - where? I can't find reference to either?
Think you will find it is a proper four bar back end.Its not. Its effectively a single pivot with a linkage driven shock.
However its so close to a 4-bar that nobody really notices the difference.
Nice bike. Enjoy it.
Cheers mate.
This thread is turning rather [s]amusing[/s] tedious. 🙄
Such a promising thread title with such disappointing content
The way its going I might just start a new one with a picture of a belly button. 😆
It's all about the Horst Link innit.
Faux bar don't have it whereas Four Bar do.
[img] 
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That'll confuse people who don't read the whole thread 🙂
I'm sure that looks unusually deep.....
flow - MemberThink you will find it is a proper four bar back end.
Presumably the designers think that too, otherwise they'd have fittings on it for a floating...
Oh
toys - I'm with you on this one, but they way I have explained it to the nay-sayers in the past is:
> the faux-bar system is a 4 bar *linkage*
> the fuax-bar system is NOT a 4 bar *suspension system*.
ie:
It is a 4-bar linkage, there are physically 4 bars in this arrangement.
However the important element is where in the linkage the wheel is attached.
On a faux-bar system the wheel is only 'suspended' by one of them, making it a single pivot suspension system, with linkage actuated shock.
Using this explanation normally results in "ahhhhh, i see!"
It's all about the Horst Link innit.
Faux bar don't have it whereas Four Bar do.
ah, but no, you don't have to have a 'horst' pivot for it to be a 4-bar.
The horst bit only refers to a very specific placement of the pivot. VPP/Maestro/DW/Lawwill are 4-bar suspension systems too, just arranged in a different way, and consequently give entirely different suspension characteristics.
amedias fair enough, except in the green bike above (the op's image) there are only 3 bars? (unless you include the floating linkage)
thats not my image.
there are only 3 bars
frame = a bar
rocker = a bar
chainstay = a bar
seatstay = a bar
= 4, same as a FSR style horst 4-bar.
if you think about it, on a Kona, all you'd have to do to make it a 4-bar is move the pivot from seatstay, to chainstay, but this doesn't create any more 'bars'.
who cares what the suspension system is called
its all marketing BS anyway
the important thing is that they are awesome bikes, if i could justify it id replace my one with the crc deal but its just lovely as it is
[img] 
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now has slx cranks and a gravcity dropper, just came back from a weekend at afan and brechfa where it was da bomb!
That doesnt count otherwise a true four bar would be called a five bar.
Look at this [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_suspension#Single_pivot ]wikipedia link[/url]
The actual four bar has 4 parts not including the frame - its the only way to get a non radial wheel path.
if you think about it, on a Kona, all you'd have to do to make it a 4-bar is move the pivot from seatstay, to chainstay, but this doesn't create any more 'bars'.
Unfortunately this doesn't work because then the wheel would follow the radial path of the seatstay instead.
(edit apologies to the non pedants - flow started it and has a habit of being rude, others are more interested technically - like me and amedias here so we surely can be allowed to discuss it? )
if you think about it, on a Kona, all you'd have to do to make it a 4-bar is move the pivot from seatstay, to chainstay, but this doesn't create any more 'bars'.
Unfortunately this doesn't work because then the wheel would follow the radial path of the seatstay instead.
nope - it does work.
On the Kona, move the pivot that is currently above the rear axle, on the seatay, to the horst position on the chainstay.
Then you have the same configuration as a FSR. No extra 'bars' created
Visualise the setup without the rear wheel/axle, and you will see they are essentially the same mechanical system, the difference is where you attach the wheel.
Visualise the setup without the rear wheel/axle, and you will see they are essentially the same mechanical system, the difference is where you attach the wheel.
leading to a different axle path
so we surely can be allowed to discuss it?
Discuss WTF you'd like, this is the internet, knock yourself out! 😆
Back to the original topic however, some people dont even have a hole, they have a small protrusion. They're called 'outies'. 😉
Ah yes I see that.. And the horst link in wikipedia has the same no of bars as the kona.
Anyway, a radial axle path = single pivot as far as I'm concerned, non radial axle path - who knows what to call it..
leading to a different axle path
indeed, that was never in dispute.
looky, i made a picture 🙂
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(and yes, resultant axle paths, braking etc will be different, just illustrating the misconceptions about 4-bar and faux-bar, they are both 4-bar linkages, but only one is 4-bar suspension)
amedias good work. I get why its called four bar suspension. What's more important is why single pivot is called single pivot. Because there is only one pivot on the axle path, or one pivot between the wheel and the frame. You can add as many linkages as you like between the other side of the axle and the suspension and call it what you like but if the axle is on a radial arm from the frame then its single pivot. Like the Kona.
[i]ah, but no, you don't have to have a 'horst' pivot for it to be a 4-bar.
The horst bit only refers to a very specific placement of the pivot.[/i]
Oh, ok. I ride a Yeti anyway, which is better.
Good lord, I'm starting to have a [i]slight[/i] interest in this now.
So, I get the technical difference. Question is, which is better? I'm guessing proper four bar as it appears it should be defended by a gentlemans honour at all costs, but if it is that much better then why bother with a faux bar design at all? I can't see that it'll cost any more or less....
Question is, which is better?
Whichever is the best colour....
'proper' 4 bar allows for more tuning of the wheel path.
it also eliminates braking forces from the suspension travel eliminating braking squat (which is prevelent on some single pivot bikes). A floating brake arm can remove this problem on a single pivot bike.
single pivot bikes generally have a stiffer back end as there is only one pivot to beef up
which is better
whichever one you prefer the ride of 😉
I'm a firm believer in there not being a 'best', there are lots of competing designs all with the positives and negatives.
What is best for you is the one that fits your wallet, ride style, maintenance concerns, and sense of aesthetics.
Personally I actually own and have owned faux bar, 4-bar (in FSR and non-FSR variants), lawwill, single pivot and VPP from numerous different manufacturers. I could bore you to tears with the nuances of each one but I would never declare one as 'best'
A lot of MTB suspension designs have come about due to the need to avoid somebody elses patent...
Matt
Mine was a statement, not a question 😉
mrjmt
Single pivots as defined by me (including linkage driven single pivots etc) all supposedly suffer from brake induced forces (jack or squat depending on the placement of things). This is either noticeable and destroys your fun, or not noticable, and under certain circumstances some people say it locks the suspension up, although I've ridden SP's all my life and never had any issues. In fact some SP's have such a tiny amount of it that its debatablke if you woudl notice .
A brill explanation of brake induced forces is found [url= http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/showthread.php?35572-quot-Brake-jack-quot-an-explanation. ]here.[/url]
If you read the thing above you will discover that the four bars etc can also get brake jack despite what others would have you believe..
Whether one is better than the other is down to personal choice and marketing bollocks..
Oh and this:-
A lot of MTB suspension designs have come about due to the need to avoid somebody elses patent...
Several frames have brake arms - my 222 has an Independant Braking System (IBS) arm.
Unfortunately, I'm not 1337 enough to actually notice the difference... but I'm sure someone on STW will pipe up and say there's a huge difference 😉
The black part the caliper is attached to...
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1337 ? que?
well you have to pay spesh a fiver(or something similar) a bike in patent fees to use a four bar
its a pain for some but for dave weagle its been a godsend!
edit: faux bar was so named by specialized patent department to make their version sound better
If you read the thing above you will discover that the four bars etc can also get brake jack despite what others would have you believe..
how true... Schwinn/Yeti Lawwills in particular are bloody awful for it. However I still ride one on a regular basis and love other aspects of the design, and you get pretty good at anticipating and counteracting the bad bits of most designs after a while.
whats this hole for?
Its there to [s]provoke[/s] stimulate another lively STW [s]argument[/s] debate
ha ha sorry, habit instead of writing 'elite' when used in a slightly sarcastic tone. It's a computery thing.
Here's a bit about it..
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet )
Thats OK then as I bought it based on price and colour.
cheezo - no arguments here, just grown-up discussion and debate, you must be thinking of the *other* Singletrack, where brand/design loyalty cause threads to escalate into massive flame wars between 'big-hitters' and then everyone starts shouting about helmet wearers....
🙂
a mate of mine used to ride an early patriot and it had a lot of brake 'dive' at the rear - the bike would noticably sink down in its travel under heavy braking. the sus still worked though - and having ridden more modern patriots, it seems to be something that doesn't affect the bikes so much any more (maybe due to angles) which could be why orange no longer offer an IBD?
Own a Kona by any chance, flow? Getting all defensive?
No I don't actually.
Its just toooo easy 😆
[url= http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:DFzT-uodcqgJ:www.konabikeworld.com/08_tech_ds.htm+faux+bar+vs+four+bar&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk ]Read it and weep [/url]
that kona article ........
as a konafanboy i agree completely with their PR 😀
buit its sums it up nicely
4-bar = more pedal bob
faux bar = more brake jack
that kona article ........as a konafanboy i agree completely with their PR
buit its sums it up nicely
4-bar = more pedal bob
faux bar = more brake jack
Well, I spend more time pedalling than braking so..... 😯
Truth be told, Horst-Link suspension was originally designed for motorcycles. You won't find the system on
any motorcycles today, simply because it doesn't work
Yeh right.
not sure why a 4 bar would necesarrily equal more pedal bob? that'd be entirely dependant on the rear wheel path around the sag point surely?
well in the US you have to pay spesh a fiver(or something similar) a bike in patent fees to use a four bar
FTFY (there are other patent offices who bother with stuff like prior art)
This threads gone quiet 😆
i like hardtails