[Closed] What's that you say? Another new tyre standard? Oh, goody, goody, gumdrops!

Having a bike with 700x38s on that I can comfortably ride on rutted and banged up paths I'm fundamentally failing to see what the point is.

However, since I was a 29r decrier when they first came out and my go to bike is now a 29r maybe they're awesome...

Logo on rim is not aligned with tyre. 😯

Been thinking about this for about a year, drop bar 29er with big apples on.

Road Plus aims to enhance the capabilities of endurance road and gravel bikes, giving riders the ability to comfortably take on even more adventurous rides

That said I can see why folk want a higher volume tyre for the rough roads we have but then I recall rule 5.

Hardly a new thing, but interesting to see some bigger names trying to drag it a bit more mainstream...

Not so obvious why you can just use bigger tyres on 700c. Its not like a larger diameter isn't helpful over rough bits

But who knows maybe it will be the new thing

One can only assume the bike companies balance sheets are looking a little weak - smacks of total desperation 😯 I'm well up for innovation but this is getting silly

Meanwhile I'll keep riding my steel fixed with 700c wheels which is pretty much the same as my Dad was riding in the 50s and 60s and isn't so far removed from the Rover Safety from c 1890... and takes me pretty much anywhere I need to for day to day travel

This isn't actually new, is it? Haven't the French been doing this for....ever?

Been done already by [url= https://janheine.wordpress.com ]Jan Heine/compass tyres[/url] - unless you ride on super smooth tarmac there is zero point in running the skinny road tyres that come with road bikes.

Looks like a good idea… for the real world… more comfort without more toe overlap.

brooess - Member
Meanwhile I'll keep riding my steel fixed with 700c wheels which is pretty much the same as my Dad was riding in the 50s and 60s

ahhh, i remember when 700c was the new standard and we all had to swap from 27"

🙂

amedias - Member

interesting to see some bigger names trying to [s]drag it a bit more mainstream... [/s] repackage it and sell it as a new idea

I've been impressed with WTB's rims recently but this really makes me want to stab someone in the face tbh. And it'll be the same pish as Boost, if it takes off- lots of companies that never used to consider selling a frame with enough space in it for a larger tyre and acted like you were weird to think of using more than 28C, will suddenly tell you fat tyres are really important.

[quote=garage-dweller ]Having a bike with 700x38s on that I can comfortably ride on rutted and banged up paths I'm fundamentally failing to see what the point is.

You appear to be mistakenly assuming the point is a technical advantage.

[quote=somafunk ]unless you ride on super smooth tarmac there is zero point in running the skinny road tyres that come with road bikes.

Skinny(ish) tyres work fine on all normal tarmac - it's only when riding on non-tarmac there's any need or point for anything else.

Sorry, kitty

[img] [/img]

I bloody knew it was coming, I swear I predicted road bike wheels would be next to be frigged with...

In essence you can sort of see the logic, roadies have cottoned on to the concept of slightly wider (25-28mm), higher volume tyres being more comfortable in recent years. But I think they've picked the wrong gimmick, they should have gone for "gravel plus" first (presumably that's on the way too) I just don't reckon roadies are going to fall for this one, where shoving a higher volume tyre on drop bared, offroad bike probably has more chance of selling, and arguably makes more practical sense, but then why not simply plonk bigger tyres on a 622 rim?... Oh hang on...

The Skin-walls are pretty though, so that's something...

This will only make sense if combined with a new hub standard! 😡

I dont see the issue, It's a good idea to build frames that can run either wheel size so you have the options if you want. Its not like with mtbing where the new standards mean nothing old is compatible.
It sounds like they are looking at frames that can be used like this potentially expanding the possiblities of your current bike.

This has been a thing for ages, nothing to get upset about.

35c+ on 700c is fine if you're big, but for shorties 650 makes sense.

More not less rubber on more versatile road-ish bikes is excellent news for most of us. I don't have a road bike at the moment at all, but I was coming to the conclusion that 700x30mm (preferably tubeless) was about right, so I'm delighted to see what's about when I'm next buying.

🙂

when 700c was the new standard and we all had to swap from 27"

Wasn't it just us in the uk that had to be dragged onto 700s?

So a gravel plus bike is basically my hybrid with curvy bars? So they're making hybrids and tourers and giving them funny names?

Before you know it they'll be introducing gravel plus flat bar suspension bikes. Erm...mtb anyone?

Looks like the tyres I had on my old Raleigh Arena

Before you know it they'll be introducing gravel plus flat bar suspension bikes. Erm...mtb anyone?

There's a massive overlap of capabilities among very differently-styled bikes for medium distance/not-too-fast/not-too-rough/on-and-off-road riding.

A vast proportion of the regular bike rides that loads of us do would probably be absolutely fine on a CX/tourer/"gravel" bike/hybrid/XC-mtb/trail-mtb. You'd just be faster/enjoy it more in different places on the different bikes.

Just as a vast load of other rides are absolutely fine on a trail/enduro/all-mountain/marathon bike.

🙂

I may be missing something here but didn't cannondale do this with the slate a while ago.

well it's nice to be a trail blazer for once, I'v been riding Compass Switchback Pass 650b X 48mm tyres since they came out last year... they're fab. Get the extralight versions with the supple sidewall and it's like riding on clouds 🙂

Live and let live. You don't have to use it.

chunky slick tyres for the 26 were never called "+" they just had dimensions in inches not mm 😕

Im tempted to be a bit less cynical about this idea than I have been about most other wheel standard introductions.

firstly it seems like a really good idea - my commute to work includes loads of roads that have been dug up so often Iv seen smoother bridleways. Yet its still 22 miles so not really need a racer

Secondly they appear to have made it so the wheel is the same width and height as a standard wide road wheel... so all you would have to change is the wheels, not frame and forks. I'm pretty sure my bike cant be upgraded as looking at the spacing at the back I'm still not sure I can even squeeze 25c tyres in there! but still its a change many will be able to make relatively cheaply.

Whats not to like?

Hmm, I wonder if I could put one just on the front...?

650c was a standard for road bikes before the mtb world decided they liked "just right" middle sizes. We had a lovely ladies road bike that fitted teens1 and 2 perfectly when they were younger. Sadly nobody is really making this prefect size now, so XS road bikes look a little out of sorts.

[img] [/img]

The good news is that there will now be a good range of tyres so when the current 650b hard tails there will be a good range of tyres to let them become commuters etc.

They work wonders for toe overlap too, not just short arses. 650b X 48 has the same approx diameter as 700c X 35.

The road whole 650b road thing has been building in the US for some years now thanks to Jan Heine and BQ.. and of course the French.

bigdean - Member
Been thinking about this for about a year, drop bar 29er with big apples on.

Singular Gryphon with 2" 700c Big Apples or Marathons and a pannier rack.

4 years now as an excellent 20 mile each way commuter. Year round.

(I know 2" 700c isn't a proper tyre size, but you know what I mean)

Captain Flashheart, always late to the party but like to make an entrance?

Having a bike with 700x38s on that I can comfortably ride on rutted and banged up paths I'm fundamentally failing to see what the point is.

Because not everyone is going to be able to fit 700x38s on their road bike (think seattube clearance or fork crown clearance), The RoadPlus gives you the additional volume but at a diameter much more likely to fit your frame.

so all you would have to change is the wheels, not frame and forks

umop3pisdn - Member

This has been a thing for ages, nothing to get upset about.

That's kind of the entire point. An idea probably older than the marketing man who decided to rebrand it Road Plus and pretend it's new and exciting.

it is a little bit new and exciting 🙂

[quote=shandcycles ]Because not everyone is going to be able to fit 700x38s on their road bike (think seattube clearance or fork crown clearance), The RoadPlus gives you the additional volume but at a diameter much more likely to fit your frame.

If you can't fit 700x38s I doubt the width of these will fit in your forks and seatstays. Not to mention that they will only work with disc brake 700c bikes - the majority of which will fit 700x38. They're not really something you can just slot in an existing road bike in anything like the way some people seem to think. TBH I have to question the design of any bike which will fit these tyres but not 700x38s - do you happen to know of any like that?

not sure how good your rim brakes are going to be using the tyre side wall.

So whats the difference in height of braking surface between the standard wheels and these new ones? (I'm not a roadi)
That would be a shame as there seems to be plenty of clearance in my forks for such a wheel on the front. You can drop the pads down a bit on my brakes from what I recall - Will this not be enough?

So whats the difference in height of braking surface between the standard wheels and these new ones?

19mm

19mm difference - I doubt you can drop the pads that much (and if you could and you're on normal calipers, there's no way the tyres will fit through your brakes).

Silly rabbit, this isn't for existing bikes, this is to sell you a new one. Surprised they haven't packaged it with a new axle standard but maybe it's like mtbs and that'll only come along after the early adopters have been skimmed

So whats the difference in height of braking surface between the standard wheels and these new ones?

Your disc brakes don't care. And if your road bike doesn't have disc brakes, stop worrying about this and no kittens have to die.

🙂

aracer - Member

19mm difference - I doubt you can drop the pads that much (and if you could and you're on normal calipers, there's no way the tyres will fit through your brakes).

Posted 5 minutes ago # Report-Post

Northwind - Member

Silly rabbit, this isn't for existing bikes, this is to sell you a new one. Surprised they haven't packaged it with a new axle standard but maybe it's like mtbs and that'll only come along after the early adopters have been skimmed

Posted 3 minutes ago # Report-Post

You can do it with rim brakes, longer reach calipers exist which can convert some bike (obv depends how long reach you have already).

cynical lot aren't you 😉

compare the diameters of a 700c x 48 and a 650b x 48

The ability to have all that extra volume without the extra diameter is why this tyre size is good.

19mm

course the next big thing will be road bikes with 26" wheels 52mm tyres... allegedly

the Open and Cannondale bikes using this need some more running mates … lots to like with the extra volume without extra diameter, in my opinion … no risk whatsoever of 700c being abandoned because of this … choice is good … it's only the killing off of perfectly usable wheel options that's bad … well that's my take anyway

TBH, I think these actually might be a decent way way of running a couple of bikes for a whole bunch of riding senarios

road (with discs) normal set of (road) wheels skinny tyres for fast hurty roadie ride

set of these 650 rims and road-ish tryes for exploring the lanes

MTB bike 650 rims

extra set of more gravelly tyres for stuff that's not full MTB but a bit more than the road frame can handle

though without the revolting skin wall obviously

[quote=STATO ]You can do it with rim brakes, longer reach calipers exist which can convert some bike (obv depends how long reach you have already).

Longer reach calipers have a whole 8mm more reach.

Here is someones conversion of a Surly Pacer, from 2009! god damn these NEW fangled wheel sizes.

[url= http://www.bikeman.com/bikeman-blogs/650blog/1897-surly-pacer-650b ]LINK[/url]

aracer - Member

STATO » You can do it with rim brakes, longer reach calipers exist which can convert some bike (obv depends how long reach you have already).

Longer reach calipers have a whole 8mm more reach.

That's 'long' reach, I said long[u]er[/u] 😉

[url= http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/components/brakes/calipers/tektro-r559-extra-long-reach-brakes.html ]LINK[/url]

Apologies if I've missed the answer to this question. I like the look of the frame in the original OP.
What is it?

I've been wanting a new frame for the commuter, something with decent tyre clearance and road disc compatible. I was looking at a Genesis equilibrium disc framset, but I'd be open to suggestions.
(Sorry for the slight hi-jack)

Apologies if I've missed the answer to this question. I like the look of the frame in the original OP.
What is it?

The tyres are being released and the American hand made bike show, so that's a custom steel frame, a soulcraft. Expensive!

Stato, thanks.
🙂

[i]Solo - Member
original OP.[/i]
😳

Well a 700c cyclocross tyre just won't fit in my 26" mtb frame (its a bit old school clearance-wise). Yet there is not so much choice in skinnier 26" tyres these days. One of these johnnies might help me covert it into a gravelly/cx type of machine.

It's another option. Can't see 700x road wheels going away (frames post for future reference)

TBH, I think these actually might be a decent way way of running a couple of bikes for a whole bunch of riding senarios

road (with discs) normal set of (road) wheels skinny tyres for fast hurty roadie ride

set of these 650 rims and road-ish tryes for exploring the lanes

MTB bike 650 rims

extra set of more gravelly tyres for stuff that's not full MTB but a bit more than the road frame can handle

though without the revolting skin wall obviously

I Can't really see how this beats what's currently available in the form of a pretty standard 622mm rimed CX/Gravel type bike. I can fit a 622x40ish tyre for general on/offroad bimbling and/or touring, or a 622x32-35 for more aggressive CX offroad use or a 622x25-28 slick for "Fast" Road use. If I really want to I supose I could also fit a 650b (584) or ever a 26" (559) rim and the widest clearing tyre for each size but honestly, why bother?...

What exactly are they selling that benefits me as a consumer, over what I can already buy today???

TBH having spent a few months enjoying riding a CX/Gravel type bike, I've been idly mulling the concept of a "Monstercross" bike over; more like a drop barred (or flared drops) 29er really, something with 622 x 50mm (2") or bigger tyres, that just appeals far more as a middle point between a "Gravel" bike and an MTB; with larger volume, bigger, better rolling tyres (including the option of some chunky slicks) and all the parts are already widely available...
That would make a better "All Rounder" than a "Road plus" bike IMO... I'm Assuming that's what they're pitching for...

Line up the Kittens, it's going to be a bloodbath!

meh, i'll wait for the boost version

Northwind - Member
...if it takes off- lots of companies that never used to consider selling a frame with _________..... will suddenly tell you __________ is really important.

If we have to have three different wheel sizes, how about using them properly?
Small bikes get 26 inch wheels.
Medium get 650 and large sizes gets 700/29.
With tubing, cranks and geometry designed to suit, obviously.
Small frames that take 26/650 and large ones that take 650/29.
Joined up thinking.

Never going to happen, too much time and effort, the only ones to benefit would be the customer.

Much easier ways to part ex golfers from their money - just pile new standard upon standard, niche upon niche until you alienate everyone and the big bubble bursts.

I'm banking on the fact that there's only a finite number of rich, consumerist, bike curious idiots out there.
Some we'll lose through boredom.
Many will jump ship for the next big thing.
Some will go back to whatever it is they did before.
Most of them will get fed up with being taken for a ride eventually.

🙂

What exactly are they selling that benefits me as a consumer, over what I can already buy today???

More comfort than 700x28 for same size
Same comfort as 700x42 for less weight

Same size means keeping the same geometry without giving toe-overlap and not heading down long and relaxed tourer geo. As someone said above this is especially important for smaller ridiers.

Less weight is pretty obvious.

Essentially its the same reasons 27.5+ is being pushed over 29+ (now we have realised they don't fit most 29er frames and released boost hubs to make space).

Don't worry someone, somewhere is getting ready to push 26+ into the market place.

road plus, is that the actual name or is that just what bike rumour are dubbing it?
Who wants/needs 40+ [i]road[/i] tyres?
I can see the optional wheel size thing for smaller people and I guess cx/gravel/gnarmac*
but road bikes, on 47mm tyres?
Is this not people going for a chunky tyre look rather than a valid use/function?
If your bike/body is being hammered so much by your chosen [i]roads[/i] would you not be better off ditching the [i]road[/i] bike and getting something a bit more robust.

*considering what I've ridden** comfortably on 700x32 I'm struggling a little to see the need tbh
**Yes I know [i]"X is good enough for me so it's good enough for everyone"[/i] is a crap argument and I normally wouldn't use it, but in this case....

Small bikes get 26 inch wheels.
Medium get 650 and large sizes gets 700/29.
With tubing, cranks and geometry designed to suit, obviously.
Small frames that take 26/650 and large ones that take 650/29.
Joined up thinking.

Never going to happen, too much time and effort, the only ones to benefit would be the customer.

I don't think even the customer would potentially benefit from this. The 'time and effort' equal costs which would be passed on to the customer.

[quote=breatheeasy ]Small bikes get 26 inch wheels.
Medium get 650 and large sizes gets 700/29.
With tubing, cranks and geometry designed to suit, obviously.
Small frames that take 26/650 and large ones that take 650/29.
Joined up thinking.As someone who is generally at the lower end of medium, I'd say this is a shite idea. There are lots of times where a 700/29 wheel is the right size, regardless of rider height.

I don't think even the customer would potentially benefit from this.

You're a medium, aren't you?
🙂

The 'time and effort' equal costs which would be passed on to the customer.

There are lots of times where a 700/29 wheel is the right size, regardless of rider height.

The ability to have all that extra volume without the extra diameter is why this tyre size is good

I though the one thing that was really good over rough surfaces was more diameter. Ever used a skated board on a public road?

More comfort than 700x28 for same size
Same comfort as 700x42 for less weight

Same point here. The same size tyre on a smaller rim is not the same comfort. Other wise we'd all have BMX wheels wouldn't we

If your bike/body is being hammered so much by your chosen roads would you not be better off ditching the road bike and getting something a bit more robust.

It'll have to be more of gravel type bike anyway, no way are you getting those width tyres on a race bike with it's typical clearances.

Why are we just re-inventing bikes from the 1920's (which were designed for crappy roads post WW1)? Why don't we force councils to actually fix their roads and not leave them as a potholed, gravel mess. Then use mtbs for proper offroad.

[img] [/img]

Who cares, it's for roadies.

The bike manufacturers innovation departments are thinking "MTBers were daft enough to switch to a wheel that is marginally 10% bigger for the [i]huge[/i] benefits, maybe the roadies are as daft. Let's see if they swallow it..."

Rusty Spanner - Member

There are lots of times where a 700/29 wheel is the right size, regardless of rider height.

Why?

Why are larger diameter wheels sometimes better than smaller?

I've test ridden a lot of bikes recently.
I'm about five five and ride a 50cm horizontal frame.
Only one 700c bike I've ridden was free of overlap with 35's and guards, the Spa Tourer.

For people shorter than me, top tube length can often be too long with 700c wheels as well.

Of course bigger wheels roll better over rough ground.
But I'd argue that a correct fit is often more beneficial.
Of course, the averagely sized and above can have a bigger volume tyre in the the same frame.

And wasn't it yourself who argued for the benefit of 650+ over 29+ for shorter riders?

I'd have happily stuck with 26 and 29 in various widths, would cover most bases.
But as we've had 650b forced upon us, it would be interesting to see it used for the benefit of the consumer rather than the manufacturer.

Gotcha.

I get that teeny folk are going to struggle on bigger wheels. Often, it's a challenge to get them packaged into a decent frame without making other compromises (e.g. standover height, toe overlap, luggage carrying). However, I don't think we can then extrapolate that to say that all riders of a certain height should have a restricted choice of wheel sizes. There's a lovely Ti 29+ often posted on here that looks, to me, to be too big for the owner but they love it. Similarly, there's lots of tall riders perfectly happy with their choice of 26" wheels. Yeah, I understand they might have to go up to 650B in the future but that's still not mandating 29" wheels in larger sized frames.

Summary: choice is good!

FWIW, this RoadPlus thing is of very passing interest to me. I've run the Amazon with CX tyres up to 35mm regularly and I know it could handle wider. The BB height might start to be an issue I guess, at which point a 650 wheel [i]might[/i] be a solution. I'm not exactly excited about it though 😕

However, I don't think we can then extrapolate that to say that all riders of a certain height should have a restricted choice of wheel sizes.

Well, at the moment, riders are already restricted to a choice of one wheelsize for the vast majority of road bikes.
🙂

Offer frames that can take two wheelsizes - 26/650 for the smaller sizes, 650/700c for the larger.
Everyone gets the option of a bigger tyre at the same overall diameter.

Look at manufacturers websites - they all bang on about the amount of research they've done to create the 'ultimate ride experience' or some such bollocks.
Maybe so, but for which size?
Are forks, tubing diameter, crank length, headtube size, fork offset etc optimised for each size?
Not often.
And is the bike fit and function compromised by the need to fit 700c wheels where they often shouldn't be?

[quote=dragon] Then use mtbs for proper offroad.

Or CX bikes if you're so inclined - no particular need for this new size for that for most average size people.

Kind of surprised I'm the first to post a pic of a selection of widely differing bikes, all suitable for gravel roads and a bit rougher - I don't think any of them were 650B, though some 26" wide slicks, some CX tyres, some 700c touring tyres, even one set of narrow road tyres:

[img] [/img]

Well I'll counter that with a pic of a bunch of people at a road/gravel/offorad meet where most of the bikes [b]are[/b] 650Bx$BIGSIZE

[img] ?w=676[/img]

just for contrast like 😉

It's not a new thing at all, the french were at it from the 20s-70s, went a bit quiet for a while after that but was still around, the Americans have been picking it back up again over the last decade or so for gravel riding well before 'gravel riding' was the new media darling, and the Japanese aren't immune to a bit of 650B road/notroad bike building either.

As with a lot of these 'next big things' they aren't that new, and by the time it ends up with the big players getting involved it's already been bubbling around in the background for a decade or so.

MTBs are awesome at MTBing, CX bikes are awesome at CX racing, road racing bikes are awesome at road racing, for 'just riding' over a proper mix of all terrain there a million variations in between which blur those lines.

I think these would render a Diverge the perfect bicycle. I intend to build some for mine.

I was amused in the comments by someone describing Jan Heine's bikes as French re-enactments !

Despite all those French/Japanese weirdos I think we can safely say that the Americans have invented something completely new here. After all, no one has put the words Road and Plus together like that before. It reminds me of that time they invented biking on mountains.

😆