[Closed] What's a good high anti squat trail bike

Yes you definitely need to try an Orange.

Here's a review I wrote of my Stage 6, which I think is pretty warts-and-all...
http://unduro.co.uk/mtb/review-orange-stage-6/

I would not dismiss one as a trail bike actually, it pedals so well.

Good review that fella. Worth considering. Interesting...

Dw-Link is the best pedalling I've used. Sounds like it's exactly what you are looking for.

BMC Trailfox maybe? When I got mine it was officially a long travel enduro bike but that probably makes it a run of the mill trailbike today. And it had so much antisquat that I sold it

I’d say you want something with high anti-squat but also a fairly linear leverage ratio. More progressive bikes feels softer around the sag point (which you don’t want) and ramp up so if you run them firmer you’ll not be able to use the travel without a huge hit.

Recent Oranges will certainly fit the bill! More and more bikes are quite progressive now, which does work very well in practice (especially if racing) but I don’t think you’ll like the feel as much.

With single pivots and faux bar bikes, just look for how high the main pivot is above the chainline. With the other designs look for how high the links point to.

I'd say you want to try a yeti or vpp. I like Horst but it is spongy

Swarf Contour.?

I like you was coming from a hardtail and didn't want a big mushy bike, i'm amazed at how lively it feels when you put the pedals down...never locked the suspension out...ever.

https://enduro-mtb.com/en/swarf-contour-review/

climbing uphill the ride is fast and efficient. Anti-squat sits near to 100% at the sag point using a 32 tooth chainring and in all but the largest cassette ring the suspension is totally neutral. We found we were frequently sitting two gears higher than usual on familiar climbs and long days were a breeze. It’s the sort of bike that would be just as happy climbing hard for a one hour after-work blast as it would churning through a seven hour mountain epic.

Apparently my Intense Spider has a lot of anti squat and feels as you describe. Can feel a bit choppy pedaling up rougher climbs, but it's a small price to pay for how responsive it feels compared so some I've ridden.

Forbidden Druid
Deviate 29er trail bike (when it’s released)

IME most air shocks default tunes don't work well (wallow and blow through travel) with 4 bar horst link designs (vertical shock next to the seat tube). Even when bike brands claim they are tuned for the design!

It has got better compared to the days when bikes came with Fox RP shocks. They were so soft, you were either always sat in the last third of travel or had to use high pressures and put up with poor small bump compliance. Volume spacers improved things but only came as an unsupported aftermarket option years after they were needed and still didn't reduce the volume enough to get decent ramp up.

IME they mostly need a medium/medium damping tune in SRAM speak for average male rider weights, volume spacers for large air cans (I ran 3 pos 1 neg in a debonair) or a shock with a low volume positive air chamber.

The rare in the wild, firm tune, LV can for aggressive and heavy riders!

I’ve always read that VPP is a little less plush than Horst, but pedals better / has a more immediate feeling under acceleration. Might be worth a look at some bikes with that suspension design.

Santa Cruz have generally had way too much anti squat, so if that's your thing, check out one of their bikes.

The Nukeproof reactor is meant to pedal pretty well, so might be worth a try.

JP

All the stuff people say about Horst link vs VPP vs single pivot etc is essentially complete and utter bollocks. What matters is the instant centre position - put it low and it’ll bob, put it high and it won’t.

What matters is the specific execution of each design - where the pivots are. Move a pivot by as little as half an inch and you can drastically change the pedalling behaviour.

Very disappointed. I thought this was another toilet thread.
Anti squit trail bike?!

Definitely an Orange. More pronounced effect than the linkage type designs - its part of what makes people either love or hate them.

I have a Stage 4 - it is not the plushest or most active, but it does 'sprint' very well.

As CGG says there's no specific design that will be better or worse, its all down to the pivot placements.

If you can get away with the gearing (maybe as you'd run a 10T rather than 11T for example) find a bike you like and drop a chainring size. On most bikes that will give you a noteable AS boost.

I've owned two Orange SP's, a DW Link bike and a VPP bike, and by far I found the VPP the most efficient pedaller.

Orange SP comfiest, DW Link very much a great middle ground, and VPP the most efficient pedaller.

My Canyon Neuron CF pedals really well for a 130 mm travel bike. The mid part of the travel is very supportive and provides a great platform to push off. I can run the shock fully open for pretty much everything and only lock it out for steep fireroad climbs out of the saddle.

I wouldn't get hung up about Horst vs VPP vs whatever else. It's all down to specific bike design and intended purpose. My bike (Horst link) was specifically designed for efficient pedalling and the trade-off is a slightly less plush ride. The travel is split into 3 distinct phases - soft initial phase, supportive mid and progressive end. It is quite sensitive to sag setting, but once dialled in it's hard to fault. It pedals night and day better than my 160 mm travel bike (also high-end Horst/FSR design).

Some graphs in the link below. Anti-Squat is at around 90% and pretty much constant for all gears and travel.

http://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/2019/08/canyon-neuron-cf-2019.html

So in summary I would look at bikes with modest travel (120-130 mm range) and suspension specifically tuned for pedalling efficiency (regardless of their generic design). You might also want to consider a bar operated lock-out, but I'm happy to reach down for the Fox lever - not that I feel much need to use it on this bike.

Yeah some four-bar frames can pedal really well, like my old Spesh Enduro 29 or Zestys.

But recent ones I've owned or ridden have tended to be a bit bob-prone because of the way they're executed, IME.

I like single pivots for this very reason. For non linkage driven single pivots i think its really is quite vitally important that you get a decent shock though with adjustable compression damping to dial in the feel you want. A single pivot with a linkage driven shock is a different beast.

My fave bike for riding feel was an ancient commencal meta 4 with knucklebone suspension design (linkage single pivot). It had the shittest shock but the linkage and pivot location were perfect for what i wanted (take the big hits off) and was just rad to ride (xc and jumps) untill it snapped (jumping!)

I`ve had an orange but with a non compression adjustable shock it was shit to be honest. I put a decent coil with adjustable compression on it and, oh my god! it was like night and day - so much better. i did have to run a suprising amount of compression damping which is why the standard shock was crap.

I now have an Empire single pivot and its great. i never use the open/dh setting on the shock as it is too soft. Its great for pedalling and decending.

I`ve had horst link (2 norcos 1 boardman) and maestro bike (trance) and while they are OK i never really liked the 'ive got a flat tyre' feel they give. To be fair the trance was nice for the most part just the linkage clogged up at the slightest sight of mud rendering it uselesss in the UK.

I'd also recommend less rather than more travel for that 'taught' trail bike feel. If i had enough garage space i`l love another 100mm trail bike (but i'd probably then never ride the big one)

Yeah some four-bar frames can pedal really well, like my old Spesh Enduro 29 or Zestys.

Just to emphasise my point about bikes with the same generic suspension type, I was actually comparing my Canyon Neuron CF (130 mm FSR) with my Spesh Enduro 29 (155 mm FSR). My Enduro pedals like a sack of mash compared to the Neuron, partly because of the increased travel and partly because of the kinematic design. My Enduro does pedal reasonably well for what it is, but it's not in the same class as my shorter travel Neuron, even though they both have the same generic FSR style suspension. The Enduro feels a lot more plush at mid travel, but also sags a lot deeper into its travel when pedalling, especially uphill. Both bikes have the same seat angle within half a degree, but the Neuron feels way steeper when pedalling - in a good way.

Well to muddy the water further, the E29 went like stink off a shovel with the stock Fox DPS shock - but when I swapped to a Ohlins STX it was much less perky (but much more grippy).

Tons of compression on the stock shock obvs.

Several of the reviews of my Intense Recluse mentioned how it had too much anti-squat. One person in particular analysed it with graphs and all, almost deciding that it was borderline unrideable. Which makes it all the more surprising that it's the best technical climbing bike I've ever owned, and is far better than me downhill. Unfortunately, the original shock was replaced under warranty and the new Debomair shock doesn't feel quite so supportive. Either that or I've got very used to the feel of it!

Well to muddy the water further, the E29 went like stink off a shovel with the stock Fox DPS shock – but when I swapped to a Ohlins STX it was much less perky (but much more grippy).

Tons of compression on the stock shock obvs.

Again, this just goes to show how largely irrelevant the generic suspension type can be. My Enduro 29 has a 2015 Cane Creek inline shock - recently re-built by TFT. It goes well enough, but I was pretty shocked how much better my Canyon pedals uphill. They are both FSR designs, but feel completely different to pedal. I haven't compared their kinematics, but I can't imagine them being very much alike.