[Closed] What to expect of a 'modern' hardtail?

You've swapped a lighter, more twitchy, quicker accelerating bike for a heavier, more stable and slightly slower to accelerate bike.

As you've found out, the marketing works if your goal is ultimate speed over the ground, confidence in steeps and a calmer feel to things.

If you're goal is fun, if your not bothered about KOM's and don't ride daft steep, rocky and rooty trails, much as it's a lovely bike, it might not be the 'right' one for you.

Should only take a few rides to relearn the new balance point needed to get the front wheel up. Once you do you’ll find it much easier to keep it there, or to do the front/rear shift to get the back wheel up/over.

I'm on a MkV Soul too, also riding in the Peak. Love it. (and came off an old-skool Soda, so not so dissimilar to the Scandal)

It's not a fast racy climber, but it is easily the best technical climbing bike I've owned. Longer ends make it less likely for the front end to go light and it seems to find traction in awkward situations without me really trying.

Manuals are a bit different - you have to pop harder, but once it's up, its much easier to hold. I'm crap at manuals and the Soul flatters me no end.

Tight corners will be a technique thing. If you get it right, you can change direction in a way that would have sent you straight out the front door on the Scandal - but you really do have to get over the front, grab the bike by the scruff of the neck and stuff it through the corner -pretty much ride it like a fullsus!

Compliance is a weird one. The Soul isn't whippy like my old Soda was, but there's definitely some give to it. (I demoed it against a BFe and there was a massive difference in comfort). The upside is increased front end accuracy as I'm not twisting the bike along its length as I push it into a corner. Even at 10 stone I don't find the Soul harsh and have done some good big days on it.

I'd have thought the Float 32s were a bit underspecced for a Soul - the last set of them I tried (a few years ago admittedly) were noodly as owt and didn't inspire confidence. I'm riding 140mm Pikes which are a decent stiffness. What bar/stem setup are you using?

Where are you based?

(edit - 6'2" must be on the upper limit for a large Soul? I can't remember if Cy is 6'2" or 6'3", but I think he's on XLs)

How long have you been riding it?

Until recently, my burliest bike was a 2012 Dialled Prince Albert. I used it for everything except commuting. I got nibbling for new bike last year and borrowed/demo'd a few different bikes, mostly on a borrow for a few days basis.

What I found is if you're really used to one bike, for the first few rides on a different bike, you won't suddenly start riding differently in a way that'll let you discover all the advantages of the new set-up. You'll mainly be riding it like you're used to riding the old bike, and you'll just be noticing all the ways it stops you riding how you're used to.

You'll keep riding it (because you've bought it now, haven't you?) and there'll be a ride where you're tired of analysing and just go for a bike ride, with no expectations of discovering greatness, and you'll have a bloody brilliant time.

Then, sooner or later, when the new bike gets a tyre slash or a buckled rim, you'll have to ride the old bike and you'll really appreciate everything the new bike does better.

Comparing my 31lb Clockwork Evo to my 24lb race Scott Spark it’s about the same.   I’ve been riding the Evo of late, but have done 2 x 3hr rides on the Spark this weekend to get used to it again for an event next week.

Yesterday was a frustrating twitch fest for the first hour.  Later and today was much smoother.  I’ve posted PB’s on the Spark this weekend, down and flat as well as up.

It depends on the modern hardtail - a lot of them have gone long / low / slack with a 140/150/160mm stem and quite heavy but robust components.

The Soul wasn’t there longest or slackest but the long shot geometry definitely went longer and slacker than what came before it.

You’ve probably got longer reach and longer chainstays than before so popping the front wheel will be harder. You’ll need to focus on really pushing forward with your feet through the pedals more so than just pulling up on the bars. You’ll get there but it’ll just be something to live with.

There are still hardtails that aren’t so long / have shorter chainstays that would give you a livelier / poppier feel like the Stanton switchback and Slackline, Vitus Sentier, Santa Cruz Chameleon and I think the Orange Clockwork Evo etc. I’ve decided I like bikes with chainstays around 425mm (650b wheels).

(although the 2.4 High Roller tubeless setup helps),

They won't help much with rolling resistance though, I'm not surprised it feels sluggish on climbs. Stick a faster rolling rear tyre on it - I use a Rock Razor pretty much year round in the Peak - and it'll feel a whole lot faster I reckon.

@matt_outandabout / @nedrapier: Only had the Soul a week and a half. Yes, I suspect I'll adapt; I just had high hopes for the Soul being immediately perceptibly better on multiple fronts, and so far I've only enjoyed it down rough/steep/steppy stuff, which is only ever going to be 20-30% of a ride. (I've grown to quite like being shaken to bits by the Scandal - maybe, like Mrs Doyle, I _like_ the misery).

@kelvin I've never figured out how to manual (on my Scandal); if you think it'll be easier on the Soul I'll have to give it another go!

@JonEdwards That business of getting over the front for cornering etc is something I really need to work on: I conditioned myself over years to hang well off the back when descending. Re "ride it like a full suss": to date I've barely ridden any! Re the fork setup: thanks for the recommendation of going up to 140mm. I intuitively thought 120mm would be best as anything longer than that would decrease the seat tube angle and impact on climbing performance. The bar/stem setup is 780mm + 35mm (which feels rather unpleasant when coming from 640mm + 85mm). I'm in Sheffield. Got my height wrong: I'm 6'1" with a postive ape index (6'4" span).

@joebristol Re "quite heavy but robust components": agreed, and I think that's a shame. Also, that 'pushing with the feet' business is definitely something I need to work on. However, it's always going to be harder than just pulling up on the bars as one can't do it whilst peddling, right? Also, I'd considered some of the alternative bikes you mention but thought the Soul would be the best bet for me as I was sceptical as to how well the others would climb.

@BadlyWiredDog: thanks for the tyre suggestion; I'll give that a go. I do have 2.35" High Roller 1 tyres on my Scandal and really like them but perhaps that bike is light enough overall for me not to notice the drag.

Anyway, thanks all for the suggestions/encouragement; I'll make sure I give the Soul a really good chance before making any decisions!

When you get used to the Soul it will likely be more rewarding. I found with LLS geometry it is most of the time better to stay seated mid position and just lean you body forwards a bit when going uphill, rather than shift your whole body forwards on the saddle.

This keeps the traction on the rear whilst not feeling too cramped - and also makes the ride more pleasurable. Not sure if this is relevant to the Soul as not sure how steep the seat tube is but it made a difference to the newer bikes I've ridden.

I had an earlier Soul and a couple of other steel frames, as well as the original 26" Scandal. The scandal felt much nippier and more nimble and I didn't keep any steel frame for too long, although the Soul was great to ride - just different.

Now I have a new Whippet frame built up as N+1. Was rigid until a couple of days ago and felt immediate and lively - much like the bikes of yesteryear, but with more length and bigger wheels of course. Now got some suspension forks on it although not ridden yet as my back is not happy. Perhaps you could look to one of these if Planet-X have another daft sale and do them for a reasonable cost.

It sounds like you put a lot of emphasis on the climbing ability? I’m the other way round - I like climbing fast, but so I can get it out of the way and fit more descents in!

Bar setup sounds fine - I just wanted to check you weren’t still running your Scandal setup!

120 v 140 forks is personal choice, but for me the trade off of a slightly higher BB and and front end is worth it - certainly hasn’t impacted the ability to go uphill! My other half ha just picked up a small secondhand Soul - hers is 120.

If you’re Sheffield too and fancy a ride - message me and we’ll see if we can get you sorted out!

The Soul's seat tube is surprisingly slack for a bike with a long front centre.

This is going to keep your centre of mass too far back IMO/IME, especially if you're coming from a bike with old school geo.

My early forays into LLS saw me set my cockpit up with too much of a rearward bias, and the bike ended up feeling as you describe.

Take a look at yourfore/aft weight distribution via the wheels contact patches. If you have to consciously weight the front, I suspect you're too far back.

If you've got the right size, you should have the space to slide your saddle forward without feeling cramped.

Doesn't sound as if seatangle is the OP's issue... if they are struggling to lift the front wheels on climbs, they are unlikely to be too far back when seated. And Jon's comments about getting over the front wheel are (I assume) related to out of the saddle cornering... which is more about making the most of the short stem and slacker head angle... don't hang over the back, behind the saddle, in the way you might with an older longer stem steeper headangle bike.

You'll also need to adjust to a larger wheel diameter - I find with the larger wheels I need to start turning a bit sooner. Take me a ride or 2 to adjust to the different wheel sizes and I generally end up either overshooting or undercutting the first half dozen corners at speed. You quickly adjust to that though.

Its not seat angle per-se, but that directly feeds into weight distribution. The OP says:

It feels leaden on climbs, hard work in tight corners,

Which is exactly what it will feel like if they're steering from the back, the front is light and most of the length of the bike is in the turn before you get to your turning fulcrum, because of excessive rearward weight bias.

I had same experience. Had a slack hardtail for a few months last year and while it was faster/felt better going down tricky descents (about 2% of my riding at most!) the rest of the time it just felt sluggish and slow handling. Got rid of it after 2 months.

Turns out a modern XC bike is the right bike for me and the terrain I ride in

@joebristol Re “quite heavy but robust components”: agreed, and I think that’s a shame. Also, that ‘pushing with the feet’ business is definitely something I need to work on. However, it’s always going to be harder than just pulling up on the bars as one can’t do it whilst peddling, right? Also, I’d considered some of the alternative bikes you mention but thought the Soul would be the best bet for me as I was sceptical as to how well the others would climb.

The Vitus Sentier climbs pretty well in fireroad and Singletrack stuff - the only place it was less good than my full suss (which is longer) is on really steep climbs where it can lift the front wheel slightly.

I’ve not ridden a Stanton but the Slackline is something I’m considering if my custom geo Marino doesn’t happen (been waiting ages so far). Not ridden the Clockwork Evo but the geo looks sound on it.

Why would you be seated or peddling when trying to lift the front wheel (unless trying to do a wheelie obvs)? I think working on technique and perhaps raising the front of the bike would help. Either longer travel forks or a higher rise handlebar. Given you have fairly bendy forks already I don’t think I’d go that route to extend the travel on them - the handlebar is a cheap thing you can try.

I've found the soul to be quite sensitive to tyres - I've ended up with 2 wheelsets, one which I use for peaks / natural trails running 2.6 Bontrager 2.6 SE4 and some narrower 2.3 Vigilante/ 2.2 riddler (which is similar to rock razor) for local faster rides (fields/woods/canal paths).

I think the soul is at it's best when it's either flat or pointing down, or it might just be my legs that are not fond of hills.

These kind of posts seem to keep coming up more and more.

I remember, having busted up my longshot Solaris, going to Glentress and hiring an old Cube hardtail with more XC geo. I had a blast on it! Going up was easier, the flats were more fun and downhill was great, OK not quite as fast as the Solaris but I certainly felt more in control on the Cube. I think it can take a long time to get used to these modern LLS hardtails if your muscle memory is so tied-in to 'older' style geo. That's just my experience of course.

Well, there's a difference between a Touring car and a your family saloon for a reason, albeit both will get you to your destination.

I think it can take a long time to get used to these modern LLS hardtails if your muscle memory is so tied-in to ‘older’ style geo.

Or, possibly, a person may just prefer the older style geometry.

The thing is, right, is that even though LLS may be good for some stuff it doesn't mean it's good for other stuff. Bike frames are always a balance/compromise. You can't have 'poppy and fun' and 'stable', the two are mutually exclusive despite what marketing bods would have us believe and a good all-rounder will never excel at anything. You kind of have to accept that there will be balances/compromises somewhere.

It totally depends on your own personal definition of 'fun'* of course but in general bikes have tended towards [u]too[/u] LLS for us here in Blightly I reckon. I've recently received my custom Marino (26" & pretty close to the last of the 26" BFes Cotic did- not too long & not too slack) and it's about where I'd want a hardtail to be, for me anyway.

* although it [i]is[/i] fun getting to the bottom of a run thinking 'Jebus wept, how the blistering **** did I get away with [i]that[/i]?!?'

OP, sounds like you might enjoy one of the new crop of XC hardtails a bit more than the Soul (sorry!): Canyon Exceed, Mondraker Podium, Orbea Alma etc.

OP, sounds like you might enjoy one of the new crop of XC hardtails a bit more than the Soul (sorry!): Canyon Exceed, Mondraker Podium, Orbea Alma etc.

Totally agree, or get onto Luke at Marino UK and design your own.

You can’t have ‘poppy and fun’ and ‘stable’, the two are mutually exclusive

Maybe we've hit peak LLS and winding it back a couple of model years (to say, 2018) might be a well balanced bike? E.g. Whyte 900s of that era with 65 HA and 460mm reach?

Maybe we’ve hit peak LLS and winding it back a couple of model years (to say, 2018) might be a well balanced bike?

Get in.

My 2017 bike in large has 450mm and 67* ha.

I'm leading fashion (again).

🤣🤣🤣

Not sure what it means but my 2017 bike in medium is 447mm reach & 66.2 ha static 68 sagged 130mm sus.

Asking for a friend who is unsure when people give angles for things, where zero degrees is... What time is zero degrees and as they increase do we go forwards or backwards in time. Please let him know, thanks.

I think the Stif Morf had the right balance of geometry for me. Modern, but not stupidly so. Only bike I’ve ever really regretted selling.

One person's

well balanced

I got a pace rc529 to ride in the peaks etc. and found the same. Was too capable / sluggish on most stuff and then when I found something steep enough to get going, the back end was too harsh anyway.

The one thing that did surprise me is that despite all this the geometry was amazing for climbing.

I fancy trying a 27.5 sentier now but are any recent trail hardtails as much fun as the 26" ones were?

Ooh!
I can play this game!
2015 frame, 140 forks, 64 unsagged ha 450 reach 450 seat tube.
Tried it with 120 forks to make it fit current numbers a bit better 65 ha 455 reach. Bb was too low. So it was better 5 years ago.
Easier to lift the front with taller forks even though it’s longer now. 435 chain stay helps I guess

Dunno how recent you want but the 2015-ish mk1 Switchback and mk1 BFe 650B I had were good fun (albeit with 26" wheels in 😆 )

If anyone's interested the Marino I got is (unsagged, 515mm A-C fork which is ~130mm travel)-

420mm reach
18mm BB drop
380mm seat tube
415mm stays
66.5 HA
74 SA
26"
and rack mounts!

“You can’t have ‘poppy and fun’ and ‘stable’, the two are mutually exclusive“

I don’t think that’s really true. Stable and nimble are opposites but you’re dealing in multiple dimensions. Like my hardtail is very slack and fairly long out front but it’s also stiff and short at the back. The front is stable and the back is poppy and fun and you just have to shift your weight about to swing from one to the other.

To me it seems like trail / long travel hardtails got capable enough to be fun a few years back but have sailed past the sweet spot, and only fun for a minority of people in a minority of places now.

Now xc hardtails maybe have the right geometry (I have an fsi) but the frames are too lightweight to risk in peaks etc. and really stiff.

@kayla1

If anyone’s interested the Marino I got is (unsagged, 515mm A-C fork which is ~130mm travel)-

420mm reach
18mm BB drop
380mm seat tube
415mm stays
66.5 HA
74 SA
26″
and rack mounts!

How tall are you?

Still waiting on Marino (should have gone via the U.K. I think rather than direct but still waiting it out) but mine’s a bit different to yours:

445 reach
65.5 HA
74 SA
45mm BB Drop
125Mm HT (I think)
425mm CS
395mm ST
2.8” tyres max
Boost Spacing
650b
140mm fork / 524mm A2C
Reynolds 725 tubes
Didn’t specify rack mounts.
Debating internal vs external routing

If Marino don’t get their finger out I’m probably just going to buy an 853 Stanton Slackline.

I'm 172cm (5'7" ish). I like small bikes- probably a throwback to growing up on BMX and being a dual slalom fashion victim BITD 😆

I went for a Signal Ti due to the issues with long low and slack.  It’s a huge amount of fun and fast, will go up or down anything. They do a steel version now which I’m sure is just as good.

I do agree with some points above that LLS has gone too far for a lot of people. Also why my spec isn’t hugely long reach or mental slack or with long chainstays.

I want a hardtail to be playful as well as fairly capable - I don’t need a 63 degree head angle / 480mm reach / 440mm chainstays etc.

Stuff like the ‘Hello Dave’ from On-One might suit a small minority of people but not that many.

Sounds like Wilf and Joe would be much happier on a Stanton Sherpa. My On One Big Dog suits me and I've come from 5 years of an Inbred 29er. At my advanced years I'm not sure that the Stanton wouldn't be too playful.

I have a Doctahawk frame at home, waiting to get back in October to build it and see what it is like as it is on the extreme end of hardtail geometry.

@cloggy

Sounds like Wilf and Joe would be much happier on a Stanton Sherpa. My On One Big Dog suits me and I’ve come from 5 years of an Inbred 29er. At my advanced years I’m not sure that the Stanton wouldn’t be too playful.

I wouldn’t want a Sherpa tbh - head angle is a bit steep / chainstays are too long / it’s not for standard 650b.

Having revisited the specs it’s the switchback I’d probably get rather than the Slackline. Just I’d prefer the 853 on the Slackline over the 631 on the Switchback. However the reach is almost bang on what I’ve specced from Marino, the seat tube is pretty short, the chainstays are a touch shorter still than what I’ve gone for and the headangle at 65 degrees would be ok. Maybe the headtube is a little shorter than I’d ideally like but with a new fork steerer I can run whatever spacers I’d like.

An update: I got rid of the Soul mk5 frame and got a Pipedream Sirius S5 in size 'longer'. It's great for everything from long XC rides to v. steep and twisty black runs and isn't quite as reachy as the Soul. Very, very happy.

I did the same. Went from a mk5 soul to a sirius s5 via a Trek remedy.

The issue I had with the soul was the seat tube was too slack for the lls geometry. You really had to concentrate on body pisition when climbing. The sirius has a much steeper seat tube which puts you in the correct position for climing.
I’m very happy with my sirius and would recommend one to anyone looking for a versatile hardtail.

All the 'standards' on it will be obsolete in 6 months, necessitating a new frame the next time you need to replace a headset, bottom bracket, hub etc...