What to do with dead Ebike?

https://www.e-motorrepairs.co.uk/

Good rep for repairs on Shimano

I'd normally suggest a new bike, but thats not always thew best route to take, as these things are damned expensive for an entire bike. So maybe.opt for a new motor. You are comfy on this bike, you know it backwards. A few frame/bike might not fit as well due to muscle memory. But if you fit a new motor, its like you've got a brand new bike, but one that fits like a glove.

Sure its a lot of money, but replacing things like a fork is also a hefty bill.

Build a funeral pyre and offer it to the gods of self-propulsion.

Remove the motor and use it as on-board storage and ride it like a non-ebike...(or an Amish bike as a mate calls them)?

What did you think was going to happen four years ago when you spunked £4k on your mobility scooter? Just chuck it in the landfill skip and buy another one. It's what the 'cycling' industry would want you to do.

I reckon just get a new motor for it if you still like it. New ebikes cost a fortune.

Do you think it'll get to a stage like car alternator refurbs?

Repair, reduce, reuse, recycle.

I’d get the motor refurbed. Electric motors aren’t exactly complex things full of parts that wear out like internal combustion engines and drivetrains. The coils and magnets should work indefinitely. There are reduction gears, drive belts and bearings that wear out. And control electronics that can go haywire. None of the wear items should be expensive to repair.

Good rep for repairs on Shimano

Interesting. Performanceline Bearings won't work on them any more because they are subject to random electrical failures and Shimano won't sell the sensors.

To the OP; if it can be repaired, that's what I'd do. When you say it's died, do you have any idea what the actual failure is?

Electric motors aren’t exactly complex things

It's just as likely to be the driver which on aa brushless motor is non trivial, but yeah repair. It's pretty disgusting not to on a bike that's only 4 years old.

What did you think was going to happen four years ago when you spunked £4k on your mobility scooter? Just chuck it in the landfill skip and buy another one. It’s what the ‘cycling’ industry would want you to do.

🤣, Made me laugh.

If it was mine is be trying to fix the motor, somehow.

If it's died with an EO10 error it's not repairable, Shimano and Sram are crap at making spare parta available

Yeah , tried all the mentioned repairers and they can't do anything with EO10 and yes electric motors are fairly old tech really but Shimano have made sure the software makes DIY impossible.
I of course have normal bikes but I am 73 and the distance I can get on them seems to grow less every year!
I think I will have to bite on the bullet and hand over a wad of cash to make sure I can keep pedalling til I'm at least 80.

reuse, recycle.

I see what you did there.

@FOG im no ebike expeet but is there a way to check the health of your battery? Will something tell you the number of charge cycles or capacity left?
If the battwry is good and healthy then i think new motor will get you out and having fun again!

Ian

You need to bury it under the light of a waxing gibbous moon. Then cover the burial site in putoline, strip naked and liberally spray yourself with GT85 whilst singing I want to ride my bicycle and shaking a Pringles container that’s been filled with a new set of bearings. A week later the bike will rise from the grave and work once more.

If I got a £1k service bill for a £4k car every few years that was otherwise solid and that I used regularly then I'd probably think that was ok. Seems to me an ebike if the rest of it isn't ruined and you like it is probably the same principle.

I hope the car model on motor repairs is better.

At £1k every four years it doesn't seem that bad if it enables you to do the kind of riding you want to do.
What does that work out at? about a four quid a week.
How much does a pint cost these days?

Four quid a week? I'd check your maths, you're off by around a factor of five!

£1000/4 years
£250/1 year
£4.80/ week?

Nice edit there squirrel.
The 4 quid a week was a guestimate.
Point being it's still not a massive amount when you compare to the price of everything these days.

Or a non-ebike.

£0/4y
£0/y
£0/w

As a Scotsman, this makes me much happier.

This whole thread makes me sad. No normal bike costing £2+k would be considered disposable or beyond economic repair after 4y unless it had been crashed.

Maybe this is the subject for another thread but given the OP said this.

I of course have normal bikes but I am 73 and the distance I can get on them seems to grow less every year!

How much would you pay per week to get back some of your youth and be able to keep doing what you love?

If it’s died with an EO10 error it’s not repairable

In my experience e010 errors are not always the motor - wiring and connectors often the issue. Not specific to anyone here but if you get e010 errors check all your cabling for any little nicks/splits and clean up the connectors before refitting. Even the slightest nick for example a disk slicing a little bit in a sensor cable exposing the wire will throw an e010 at random.

I am surprised somebody with more money than me hasn't sued Shimano under the 'fit for purpose' provision of consumer protection legislation. Even if the manufacturer sets a two year warranty period, surely that doesn't negate your wider consumer rights?

If I got a £1k service bill for a £4k car every few years that was otherwise solid and that I used regularly then I’d probably think that was ok.

The bike's not worth £4k now though, even if a replacement might cost more.

However, if there hadn't been any other exceptional costs so far, I'd be tempted to agree with you. You probably couldn't replace the bike for £1k (minus the removeable, saleable parts for proper bikeonomics obvs).

What did you think was going to happen four years ago when you spunked £4k on your mobility scooter? Just chuck it in the landfill skip and buy another one. It’s what the ‘cycling’ industry would want you to do.

You seem nice.

Is this any use, Dave is local to me (Calderdale) and does seem to know his way round an ebike.

Four quid a week? I’d check your maths, you’re off by around a factor of five!

Somebody definitely needs to check thier maths

I am surprised somebody with more money than me hasn’t sued Shimano under the ‘fit for purpose’ provision of consumer protection legislation. Even if the manufacturer sets a two year warranty period, surely that doesn’t negate your wider consumer rights?

I think that’s right. It would be hard to argue that 4 years is a reasonable lifespan.

It’s also worth considering that I’m sure Shimano would like eBikes to be seen as the ‘green’ option. Chucking something away after a couple of thousand km is pretty wasteful. Otherwise I can already imagine the exposé article in in the Independent a few years from now documenting the landfill sites full of eBikes. There needs to be better support to allow people to mend these things.

Four quid a week? I’d check your maths, you’re off by around a factor of five!

It was a factor of ten before his edit.

Are Shimano the only eeb motor manufacturer whose products are not officially serviceable?

I know they've taken a bit of flack for these units. Will EP8 owners find themselves in the same position in future?

Out of interest what data is available? Does Shimano (and others) published their error codes do they offer diagnostic software? Is there a crippled free version and a more expensive pay for options? Any other service information published?

What about other manufacturers?

What did you think was going to happen four years ago when you spunked £4k on your mobility scooter? Just chuck it in the landfill skip and buy another one. It’s what the ‘cycling’ industry would want you to do.

I mean, this could have been put more tactfully, but he has a point.

They do but the e010 error is one of the more useless ones. It tells you exactly nothing about the fault. However as I mentioned sensor errors are a common one. Speed sensors are reasonably easily sourced (official RRP is £35) and always where I would start.

You'd hope whoever you bought it from would offer to do at least that basic level of diagnostics / testing before you resorting to binning it and buying a new one. Again, not necessarily answering the question from the OP.

Well, OP might have reasonably expected that the motor would be repairable/serviceable?

I'm hoping that my next eeber will have a Polini motor.
They're fully serviceable and all parts are apparently available.
They even encourage end user maintenance on them.
Currently on a Brose which is servicable by specialist places.

I would never consider anything with the Shimano motor.
Shame as they're fitted to some otherwise nice bikes.

"I am surprised somebody with more money than me hasn’t sued Shimano under the ‘fit for purpose’ provision of consumer protection legislation. Even if the manufacturer sets a two year warranty period, surely that doesn’t negate your wider consumer rights?"

Absolutely. I think some pressure needs to be put on the industry about this. I'd like to see any magazine/website that covers ebikes step up and do some actual investigative journalism. Is this behaviour from Shimano not in contravention of EU law? Maybe UK law too? I certainly wouldn't buy a Shimano ebike knowing this and will be sure to tell anyone asking for ebike advice to avoid them.

Dave is local to me (Calderdale) and does seem to know his way round an ebike.

Spolier alert: refreshing to see someone admit that, despite their efforts, they couldn't fix the damn thing.

Not sure whether that reflects well on the kit or his skills mind.

Shimano can’t even supply parts for their brakes (for over 10 years)so I can’t see them getting their arses in gear and supplying parts for an eeb.

It’s terrible service and one of the reasons I’ll steer clear of their motors.

Hopefully the Op can get it back up and running. Good luck

“I am surprised somebody with more money than me hasn’t sued Shimano under the ‘fit for purpose’ provision of consumer protection legislation. Even if the manufacturer sets a two year warranty period, surely that doesn’t negate your wider consumer rights?”

Absolutely. I think some pressure needs to be put on the industry about this. I’d like to see any magazine/website that covers ebikes step up and do some actual investigative journalism. Is this behaviour from Shimano not in contravention of EU law? Maybe UK law too? I certainly wouldn’t buy a Shimano ebike knowing this and will be sure to tell anyone asking for ebike advice to avoid them.

The manufacturer doesn't set a 2 year warranty, that's defined by statutory rights so everything has a 2 year period of warranty. A manufacturer's guarantee can go beyond that but can't be any less.
Within that 2 year period, after the first 6 months a manufacturing or materials fault has to be found or shown, it's not assumed or for them to show it's abuse etc.
So while I agree that 4 years for an e-bike isn't great it's not a CRA point. What it should be is part of the recent change in FMCG electronics regs where manufacturers have an obligation to provide parts for 7-10 yrs (not sure exactly) after a product has been discontinued. All aimed at avoiding landfill for the sake of small parts. Look up the 'right to repair' law. It came into force last year but afaik e-bikes aren't within the scope. But I'd say the gist of it should be followed by e-bike and motor brands.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9302/#:~:text=The%20Regulations%20aim%20to%20increase,efficient%20products%20on%20the%20market.

Whaaaaat. I can't believe this - the biking world has been telling everyone that ebikes are the saviour of the planet.
Now it seems a 4 year old bike may be uneconomic to repair or half the bits obsolete, and another new one may have to be manufactured and sold 🤔

Look up the ‘right to repair’ law. It came into force last year but afaik e-bikes aren’t within the scope. But I’d say the gist of it should be followed by e-bike and motor brands.

There seemed to be a consensus before the Covid boom that eeb manufacturers were going above and beyond warranty conditions to replace borked motors, in an effort to mitigate the woeful reliability of the things.

It seems that largesse doesn't now extend to a 4-year-old eeb from CRC/Wiggle, who are usually have great CS and give the customer the benefit of the doubt - but you can kind-of see their side of this one.

So yes, eeb bike & motor brands should be taking more active steps to support customers and stop their products getting a reputation as lemons, if only out of self-interest. Did they take their eye off this ball when the things were selling like hotcakes?

I'm only still mildly eeb-curious, but I'd certainly be minded to swerve Shimano motors now I'm aware of their "tough shit" approach to this kind of issue.

So while I agree that 4 years for an e-bike isn’t great it’s not a CRA point.

To add to this, CRA does say you have 6 years from purchase date to claim that there was a fault with materials or manufacturing. So I may be wrong saying it's not a CRA point. After 6 months it's for you to show how/why though so it may not be easy.
The 2 years period is minimum EU warranty period - CRA (ie statutory rights) in UK makes it 6.

Drive unit here for €429?

https://www.rczbikeshop.com/default/mtb1/transmissions/drive-unit.html

There seemed to be a consensus before the Covid boom that eeb manufacturers were going above and beyond warranty conditions to replace borked motors, in an effort to mitigate the woeful reliability of the things.

Shimano have always been the worst performer when it comes to warranty claims. They even removed battery health from the STEPS app because it showed how quickly their batteries were deteriorating.

Have you cleaned out all the contacts on the battery and applied some dielectric grease?
https://bicycles.stackexchange.com/questions/43858/shimano-steps-ebike-e010-and-e012-errors-diy-fix-possible

Out of interest what data is available? Does Shimano (and others) published their error codes do they offer diagnostic software? Is there a crippled free version and a more expensive pay for options? Any other service information published?

Bosch you need to be registered with Bosch to use the diagnostic software. You used to have to attend the training in person to get the dongle for the original software, the newer version you can complete online (as a shop/workshop). Really annoying for a customer if they purchase a light, but need to pay a dealer to turn it on in the software to enable it to work.

Shimano anybody can download the basic software. You cannot access all functions, a shop can get somebody like Madison to log in remotely and access more, eg turn on di2 functionality on an e bike that came with mechanical, change wheel size etc.

Shimano error codes are not particularly useful in many real world issues. A lot of the time you end up swapping out parts, unplugging parts one at a time to find the drain etc. Shimano refuse to publish specs that would be useful in diagnosis with a digital scope.

Thinking about it, Shimano dont really sell spare parts to repair anything. Just complete parts. Master cylinder seal dies; new lever. Piston damaged; new caliper etc etc. Only basics like a lever blade are available to buy.

I don't think that's shimano specific nor are you using a really old motor that warrants the new bike (IMHO)

Interesting. Performanceline Bearings won’t work on them any more because they are subject to random electrical failures and Shimano won’t sell the sensors.

Yeah and Bosch won't sell new ECU/mainboards etc... it's a lease/hire model not purchase and the motor manufacturers have us over barrels.

Benpinnick

In my experience e010 errors are not always the motor – wiring and connectors often the issue. Not specific to anyone here but if you get e010 errors check all your cabling for any little nicks/splits and clean up the connectors before refitting. Even the slightest nick for example a disk slicing a little bit in a sensor cable exposing the wire will throw an e010 at random.

Same on other motors... (different codes of course)... I had 2 fatal errors on my trek... first one was the controller contacts the other was a databus wire that had become loose off a loom.

First one I tried a mates controller... diagnosed and got a used replacement.
Second I had it into the Bracknell Trek store for diagnostics (I was in Eversley anyway for a reason I can't remember that day or journey's worked out somehow - frame bearings I think but only mention it out of coincidence) and it worked off the charging port but not the battery connected via a spare loom. I stripped it all down and found the break... back working

Either way both "fatal" faults were only diagnosed by plugging in spare parts... the motor manufacturer diagnostics did sod all.

I’m only still mildly eeb-curious, but I’d certainly be minded to swerve Shimano motors now I’m aware of their “tough shit” approach to this kind of issue.

I was warned off buying an Orbea Rise for this reason. Shame as by all accounts it’s a cracking bike.

I think something will have to change with the manufacturers as when I was in France this year I would say ever other bike was an ebike. Most of them were dutch style bikes and I can't believe the average punter would be happy with forking out £1000's to then find the bike stops working after a few years. That will just kill off the market. Also it wont be long until the EU gets involved if ebikes are so unreliable. We will then just ride on their coat tails as I doubt the UK government will do much as insisting on consumer rights, isn't good for business!

It's probably the torque sensor and it's not available as a spare.

It is glued onto the axle and transmits data wirelessly over a very short distance (<5mm) to the board inside the drive unit. It's calibrated at the factory.

Some people have "fixed" the issue by changing the tooth size settings on the drive unit using ST Unlocker. Maybe this causes the drive unit to recalibrate the torque sensor I'm not sure. Might not be a permanent fix tho.

Unless you buy a new e8000 from a dealer, there will be no warranty. The ebay ones have import duty on top as well.

If you can get Vitus to agree it's ok, apparently you can get an EP8 fitted for a bit more money (have a look on emtb forums).

I have an Shimano EMTB, currently 20 months old and 3000 miles. No problems yet, but above worries mean I won't buy another!

I am more than a little eeb curios, but this puts me off purchasing an eBike powered by Shimano. I wonder what it’s like for any other motor manufacturer with an eMtb over 4 years old with motor issues.

I was about to pull the trigger on an e road bike hybrid thing, but may pause and check if fazua or the hub motors are subject to the same CS / warranty process as this, as my normal road bikes last me a very very long time and maybe naively I’d expect a powered one to work for a fairly long time too.

Also it wont be long until the EU gets involved if ebikes are so unreliable. We will then just ride on their coat tails as I doubt the UK government will do much as insisting on consumer rights, isn’t good for business!

I rarely find a reason to defend the Tories and really, yes they were just following the EU - and it's not for e-bikes (yet?) - but from the Right to Repair regs link I posted above -

The UK Government has introduced new ecodesign and labelling requirements for specified electrical products sold in Great Britain. The Ecodesign for Energy-Related Products and Energy Information Regulations 2021 (SI 2021 No. 745), sometimes referred to as the “Right to Repair Regulations”, were made on 18 June 2021, accompanied by Explanatory Memorandum. Most of the provisions came into force on 1 July 2021.

The Regulations aim to increase producer responsibility, reduce energy usage and electrical waste, and enable consumers to identify the most energy efficient products on the market. Following the UK leaving the EU, the UK chose to mirror requirements in equivalent EU regulations.

France has been leading this and taken the Right To Repair further it seems, https://repair.eu/news/the-french-repair-index-challenges-and-opportunities/

What is the French reiparability index?

Documentation
Disassembly
Availability of spare parts
Price of spare parts
Product-specific aspects

Though it doesn't cover e-bikes yet as far as I can see, in time you'd expect it would (and scooters, cargo bikes.. etc). It's been some time since I was involved with Shimano e-bike systems at OEM level and I've never been a Bosch customer. Perhaps Ben Pinnick or others with contacts could comment on whether this has come up in discussions with any e-bike powertrain OEMs.

@singlespeedstu & @cheesybeanz I was calculating the initial £4k over 4 years. Having just woke up I assume this £1k figure is an assumed replacement cost of the motor and battery which wasn't actually defined at any point.

Also bearing in mind the availability of compatible parts, present and future, is entirely assumed. There is more to compatibility than whether it can physically bolt to a frame, you have controllers and their software to consider as well.

It's profoundly depressing. Take a fundamentally sustainable mode of transport like a bicycle that'll do 100 miles a day on a few bowls of rice and a couple of bottles of water - then add a battery and motor that'll bork after a few thousand kilometres, apply a truckload of greenwash and sell it as the future. Don't actually factor in a realistic plan to address where the battery components are coming from, or what you'll do with them 1000 recharge cycles down the line when they stop working properly. That's not important. More consumption! Growth, growth, growth! And FUN! You'll cycle twice as far in the same time and have five times as much FUN! Or something. I could almost buy into it if companies were at least manufacturing adapter kits where you could retrofit conventional cranksets into e-bike frames so they could be sent off to the developing world as the next generation of elephant bikes, but there's **** all chance of that happening.

Maybe stop seeking out ebike threads then...

They aren't all like that.

We've got a Radwagon electric cargo bike with a hub motor and it's all repairable or rebuildable. Even if it does need a new motor, it's a fraction of the cost of Shimano mid drive ones (200 vs 1000). And if you take the hub motor off, it's a normal bike.

Maybe stop seeking out ebike threads then…

I don't seek them out. But people persist in posting them to bicycle forums. Y'know, places where people who like the ethos of cycling hang out.

There is a dodgy version of Shimano's dealership level software available online - I hired the dongle from eBay for a week and hacked my wheel size to effectively raise the 15.5mph limit on my commuter. Of course this is only the same as going to a dealership and plugging it in.

OP.
I do have a good relationship with an electronics repair company via work. I have a Shimano Steps6000 unit (1st gen commuter system on a Trek Conduit) - I expect at some point I'll be stripping my motor down and taking the PCB's to them for repair so I do think Shimano stuff is probably repairable but I expect way above the normal bicycle level of repairs/engineering.

There's loads of road stuff gets posted on here too.
I don't really like road bikes so guess what I do with those threads?
I'll give you a clue it's not post on every single one that I don't like road bikes.😁

i wondered about this situation for a while

i regularly see. 20yr old MTB's for sale. still serviceable, and still able to give someone a great intro to MTB. Is this timescale for an E down from. 20 yrs, to 5 yrs?

I’ll give you a clue it’s not post on every single one that I don’t like road bikes.😁

Yet here you are, and this one isn't even about road bikes. Some people! 🤣

There’s loads of road stuff gets posted on here too.
I don’t really like road bikes so guess what I do with those threads?
I’ll give you a clue it’s not post on every single one that I don’t like road bikes.

I'm not interested in roadie culture either, and I don't own a road bike. But there's a fundamental difference between that mode of human powered transport - and e-bikes. Be honest, with yourself if not everyone else. Add as many emojis as you want, it doesn't change the fact your argument doesn't hold water.

Perhaps Ben Pinnick or others with contacts could comment on whether this has come up in discussions with any e-bike powertrain OEMs.

I can't really comment on other manufacturers. We're running Shimano on our ethic for various reasons, but we're also aware of the issues that causes. Thats why we're going down a different path in terms of warranty than others do in order to provide our customers the coverage that we think the product should have given its value and relative irreplaceability.

Its worth pointing out via way of a stealth ad though that we offer this on most components. If something fails straight away you get a new one from our warehouse. If something fails within its service interval, depending on the product you may get a new one, and if its a replacement, we will ship from our stock rather than you wait for it to come in - often before we ever speak to the manufacturer. If its outside its service interval even if we know the manufacturer just won't warranty it but it's a legit failure , we'll generally still replace it or fix it for you within the 2 years.

In essence, our warranty doesn't rely on the manufacturer. We tend to make our own decisions on what we're going to do whether or not the manufacturer agrees with us and suck it up when we lose out.

What we don't currently offer is that service beyond two years, but that will be changing.

^ that's the sort of approach that wins me over as a customer and shows more than just a trading relationship with your supplier's products.

I could almost buy into it if companies were at least manufacturing adapter kits where you could retrofit conventional cranksets into e-bike frames so they could be sent off to the developing world as the next generation of elephant bikes, but there’s **** all chance of that happening.

There are programs that supply late-life batteries to developing countries as solar cache batteries, but yes I agree generally.. The slick integrated battery and motor E-MTB is not as future-proof yet as the external battery + rear hub motor cargo bike of a better urban future that I like to think of when someone says 'e-bike'.

I could almost buy into it if companies were at least manufacturing adapter kits where you could retrofit conventional cranksets into e-bike frames so they could be sent off to the developing world as the next generation of elephant bikes, but there’s **** all chance of that happening.

Not that I have anything against the developing world but why send a full sus enduro bike that functionally sucks for anything other than trail riding and is covered in parts that aren't as resilient or cheap to replace as a normal bike? Hell, I'd ride a converted eeb, it's not like there aren't already gopping designs for normal bikes out there anyway.

Just needs a common standard for a gearbox or converter to...

...ah.

(you could also strip out the motor internals leaving the cranks)

“I’m not interested in roadie culture either, and I don’t own a road bike. But there’s a fundamental difference between that mode of human powered transport – and e-bikes.”

If ebikes couldn’t be pedalled without assistance then I’d agree with you. But after I got my Levo I sold my full-sus shortly after because I realised I could use it just fine with the power off, so now I have a 29” singlespeed hardtail and a 29” geared full-sus which is either electrically assisted or a normal bike carrying some extra ballast (more stability downhill, more effort uphill but it has gears to help). It’s far more like a MTB than any road bike is!

It’s far more like a MTB than any road bike is!

As long as you pretend it's the early 00's 😉

your argument doesn’t hold water.

I wasn't interested in an argument
Hope that helps.

I’d spend the money on a new motor (and take the chance to upgrade to a newer Shimano motor)… just like I’d buy a new shock or fork if it failed terminally and the rest of the bike was still sound.

Are Shimano the only eeb motor manufacturer whose products are not officially serviceable?

I know they’ve taken a bit of flack for these units. Will EP8 owners find themselves in the same position in future?

Giant to a degree. Yahamha motors but giants own software and boards. Only giant have access. You can get a pwx2 (for example) rebuilt but the giant sync drive is dead if the motherboard goes and is out of warranty, despite being essentially the same motor.