[Closed] What steel roadbike frame

18bikes are doing some road steel stuff.

Mason cycles frames look wonderful from the teaser shots.

budget is key, really.

c£700max for a frame or frameset ok?

That Ritchey road bike is reet nice.

[img] [/img]

Genesis Volare 853 for £900 would be the obvious STW answer I guess. Too much?

hora - does this mean you're getting on really well with road biking, or that you're still spending more time changing bits of the bike than riding it?

The Genesis Volare 853 is quite good for the cash - Paul Milnes are doing them for £499 with carbon fork at the mo

one of the equilibrium range ?
mercian ?
something a bit older from retrobike ??

Please don't get that Ritchey!
I've been toying with buying one for the last six months!

Halfords are (were) selling them and at one point just after the Tour they were under £600 notes....

Shand Skinnymalinky?

Not currently for sale but enough teasers on their facebook/instagram feeds that it's going to be available to order pretty soon.

Edit - just seen the budget, it's unlikely to be <£700 🙁

carbon is light (pointless as I'm never going to win anything)

i got mine for comfort over long distances, not winning, it's not just for racers

[i]carbon is light (pointless as I'm never going to win anything)[/i]
[b]i got mine for comfort over long distances, not winning, it's not just for racers[/b]

^ this

I do love the way my 853 bike rides even compared to my carbon bikes. However £700? I guess that you will be looking at something like the Genesis not a custom build. How about this for a deal [url= http://www.ukbikesdepot.com/m90b185s899p11768/GENESIS_Fugio_853_frameset_2014/RS_GB/34332?gclid=CLeSptPF2cMCFefMtAodfzUAYw ]Cheap 853[/url]

Surly Pacer,[url= http://www.tritoncycles.co.uk/frames-forks-c6/road-touring-frames-c47/surly-pacer-frameset-disco-tomato-p2602/s6730?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=surly-pacer-frameset-disco-tomato-size-62cm-fmsup61r&utm_campaign=product%2Blisting%2Bads&gclid=CjwKEAiAmOymBRD0_evS4aTh2hUSJAB7FkhyD4j-8mvDF3tUzXM2mJhxKy0xXxgHEUbHzjKy42RfFxoCbrbw_wcB ] £339[/url] for the frame set

does this mean you're getting on really well with road biking, or that you're still spending more time changing bits of the bike than riding it?

They say that ignorance is bliss 😉

£2k for a Ti full build?

[url= http://www.enigmabikes.com/collections/versatility/products/complete-bike-etape ]Enigma[/url]

Or Columbus for £700 incl a carbon fork.

[url= http://www.enigmabikes.com/collections/versatility/products/ezona ]More Enigma[/url]

If I was going to buy a Steel road frame the first and possibly only consideration I'd have would be the off-the-shelf Donohou. However, no idea on the budget and there is probably a waiting list!

does this mean you're getting on really well with road biking, or that you're still spending more time changing bits of the bike than riding it?

If I had test ridden the Pro Carbon X I'd have spotted the weird- firmer rear- flexy front.

But of course you stuck with the same bike frame that you bought.

(Keep on-topic. I stripped down the Pro X and sold the F&F last night so the rest of the bike is ready for a new frame).

My Planet X Carbon Pro is a far more comfortable ride than my steel framed road bike (although the steel frame is a thing of beauty)..................

I saw some of the new Genesis ones in a shop the other day.
The look beautiful, especially the one with Campagnolo (black with gold liverly, like an old JP Special Lotus)

They also do them with disks?

Speak to Jose at Paulus Quiros. I recently had a very interesting conversation with him about the properties of Reynolds 525. Or better still wait until April and go to Bespoked.

Also, consider a s/h Rourke. I got my 853 frame and forks for well under your budget.

Then again, Steve Goff makes frames at amazingly good prices, and s/h they (shamefully) sell for very little money. There was an absolute stonker on LFGSS a couple of weeks ago.

For you SirH, this..

[img] [/img]

I think Touring and Audax bikes tend to be heavier for strength and durability... In the case of Touring, especially, you're looking to be able to stick relatively big weights on the frame in baggage.

I must confess I'd always assumed carbon was about weight and performance not comfort. I may have projected aluminium experiences onto it.

Steel cross bike here for ride reasons. The slack geo makes big Road riding a bit of a pain, but I deliberately sized up for my own take on hybrid use. I've never taken it further than 100 on road, but next time I do it'll have narrower tyres than the 35s I left on last time... Bike commutes well, does not too Gnarly trail well and good for spins in the Peaks. One day I may buy a proper Road bike, but right now they're a bit too specialised for me.

It doesn't matter what you buy, within reason (and by that I mean geometry and tubing), they are all going to ride the same, feel the same and weigh about the same. The only thing that will materially change, is the colour and the name printed on the down tube.

Your decision criteria, really ought to be based on the following:

- can I get a perfect set up and fit (this is partly about the bike but mostly about the retailer)
- do I want mudguards
- how convenient is the retail location
- do I like the colour

You say you're not fussed as to whether it's Colombus or 853; not to be too pedantic but Colombus is to Reynolds as 853 is, I believe, to Spirit (but it might also be tripple butted Life). Columbus also do a stainless steel tubeset called XCR and they may do lower tubesets, so when chosing, bear this in mind.

Carbon is an interesting one because unlike steel, the ride characteristic is not inherent to the material, but to how the material is used. Steel has an inherent ride feel and it's difficult to manipulate that without introducing lots of other compromises. Make it stiff and it becomes harsh; make it compliant and it's not as responsive.

Bar far the comfiest frame I've ridden out of a Ti Condor, Ti Indy Fab, 853 and 725 Genesis, and a Carbon Ridley is my current Carbon Condor Leggero. It is sublime. Yes it's heavier than other carbon frames at 1kg, but it's still 500g lighter than my ti Condor was, it's materially stiffer and more responsive and they don't fail unless you crash them.

I only make the point to demonstrate that carbon frames are not homogenous. The fact is though that a decent one, that is light and comfy, is less likely to be found at your price point.

For £700 you're kind of stuck between top of the mid market and bottom of the custom built higher end steel frames. A £700 steel frame is not going to get you much performance benefit over a £400 steel frame.

For example, I've had both the £450 725 Genesis Equilibrium and now have the £700 853 version. The latter is a little lighter in the frame (although the same weight overall because it also has a steel fork that is heavier but slightly more comfortable), but other than that (and we're talking maybe 100g to 200g difference) there is no difference.

I bought the 853 version because I liked the colour more than what was available in the 725 version at the time. Simple as. With hindsight, I would have been better off saving a little more and buying a ti Enigma Etape (because I do want mudguards) which would have been materially lighter and a little more responsive.

The Condor Fratello is pricey but the service, if you can get into the shop, is excellent. You will get a perfect fit with Julian and very well looked after but you do pay a little more for it.

The Genesis Equilibrium 725 is a lot cheaper and while a little heavier, you can off set that against component upgrades. You should be able to get a good fit with a decent retailer.

The 853 Genesis adds the 853 fork, which is a nice touch and is comfier but heavier.

An Enigma in Columbus Zona (?) tubing will be at least £700. Sure it will be nice but if you want an Enigma, I would suggest you go for the Ethos and get a little more customisation and a lighter tube set. The Ezona will so much like the £450 Genesis Equilibrium but with the word Enigma printed on it that I can't see why you would pay £250 more unless you want to deal with Enigma because they are nice people and you can get to their outlet store easily and take advantage of a professional bike fit. And that would be a perfectly good reason in my book.

In summary, at £700 you really are right at the top end of high quality but still mass manufacture steel frames where you're paying a few hundred quid more for something that is only just a little bit different materially (Genesis Equilibrium 853 or Volare 853) or has a lot of service value attached to it (Condor and potentially Enigma).

To get a true custom built steel frame you need to up the budget to at least £1000 (Rourke will do you something very nice) or significantly more.

Hope that helps.

I think we ought to just start filling this thread with sexy steel roadies.. Y'know, just for inspiration...

[img] [/img]

Hora, i forgot about your email, in short i would not go the condor route and definitely an enigma in spirit tubing. better value as the condor is a bit overpriced for what it is (lower end tubeset)
cant see the point in looking at stovepipe/lugged frames, fillet brazed or tig only oversized tubes.
if your budget is limited then look at the bowman palace, totally different bike but a very sorted frame and fork.
however if you then went online 6 months later and complained it was ‘harsh’ i expect Neil would find you then kill you.

I have an equilibrium and it is nice but the biggest thing that gives it is 'spring' in the ride is the ti seatpost - replaced with a carbon one and it is much 'harder'

geetee1972- thank you and yes. Food for thought and it helps me jump a couple of paces ahead in my knowledge on this.

It doesn't matter what you buy, within reason (and by that I mean geometry and tubing), they are all going to ride the same, feel the same and weigh about the same. The only thing that will materially change, is the colour and the name printed on the down tube.

absolute rubbish.
i have a pegoretti duende and chesini prima, they are identical geometry and both made with columbus spirit tubesets, they couldn’t be more different in ride quality. while both are oversize the Pegoretti is a magic carpet ride the chesini i can feel what the tyres are doing a lot more (this is swapping wheelsets between the 2)
the stays are similar but different cross sections but looking at them tells you nothing about how they ride.

both are great frames that i would happily ride all day (if i had the time)

It's alloy, but then hey.. nice bike..

[img] ?w=460&h=307[/img]

or this.. it's steel
[img] [/img]

[i]That Ritchey road bike is reet nice.

[/i]

Don't. There was one for sale on here last year, in my size, for an excellent price, near to where I was living at the time. I ummed and aaaahhd, but didn't buy it. I so, so wish I had... 🙁

In the future I might be able to stretch the price however £700 is really my max sadly (and for that it has to include forks). The Enigma Ezona is also available as a frame only for £525 which means I've got abit more room to play with for some decent forks within that budget? (external cup 1/1 8).

On the Ritchey- what steel is it made from? I can't seem to find it?

I've got a Summer holiday to pay for and a bathroom to re-do 🙁

[img] [/img]

^Is that a traditional Japanese building in the background? 😀

[img] [/img]

Field are from Sheffield aren't they?

So,

I doubt it.

Anyways, what are you doing looking behind the bike? 😛

have a pegoretti duende and chesini prima, they are identical geometry and both made with columbus spirit tubesets, they couldn’t be more different in ride quality. while both are oversize the Pegoretti is a magic carpet ride the chesini i can feel what the tyres are doing a lot more (this is swapping wheelsets between the 2)

Good point. I should perhaps have added that my original statement really only applies to frames at the price point Hora is looking at.

Once you get into the realms of very high end custom built frames (and actually there aren't many that take tubing profiles and customisation of this to the level that Dario does) then you are into a completely different world of ride characteristic.

On the point of the Condor being a lower end tubeset, I'm not sure which frame this was in reference to. The Fratello is built with the exact same tube set at the Enigma Ethos - tripple butted Columbus spirit - but it's £700 versus £1000.

Note that the race oriented Acciaia is £200 more expensive, built with TB Dedaccia steel and is only 100g lighter.

http://www.condorcycles.com/Audax-Commute-Touring/25676-Condor-Fratello-Frameset/flypage.tpl.html bugger out of stock- I'll check. I'll put this in my 3 to shortlist (Ezona, this and another)

Edit Frameweight- 1900gm versus the Ezona 1600gm (and the Fratello would require new callipers).

The Condor is made with the same tubing as the Ethos. Enigma show the Ethos as weighing 1600g, whereas Condor say their Fratello weighs 1900g.

Clearly there is something else going on here. You can't build two frames, from an identical tube set, in the same size and have a 20% weight difference.

Paint, size and fork will all change the weight.

The Condor fork may well be heavy. I replaced the stock carbon Dedaccia fork on my Condor ti Moda and saved about 200g.

Oh and it's unlikely to be out of stock so much as they want to retail it to you in person. Call and speak to Julian.

[img] [/img]

Fratello disc looks good http://road.cc/content/news/142438-just-condor-fratello-disc

I doubt I'll be after another steel road frame for quite some time, but I'd probably get an Amaro. He welded in a new stay on my Pego after it rusted through, immaculate job and not easy to spot which one was replaced.

[img] [/img]

Maybe over somewhat budget 🙂

2nd hand Indy Fab Club Racer float your boat?

Maybe over somewhat budget

The Indy is a smidge too small on the TT. Your falls 😯

speak to mark reilly at nerve bikes, he is x enigma guy. he is making me a nice columbus life frame with disc brakes. hope to get it soon!!!! should be 4lbs max

Not meaning any disrespect Hora, and I do enjoy your threads. But you haven't got anything like enough experience of road bikes steel, carbon whatever to make a proper decision about what you'll like. Just get something in the right size, in a colour you like from a reputable manufacturer. Riding a bike is about getting out there and having fun. Once you've got a few miles and some experience you'll know more. All this internet angst is just a distraction thats turning what should be fun and simple, into an endless confused problem.

I hear you and I agree to a degree. The PlanetX was bought mostly for its value and the full Ultegra. I have wheels/tyres that I like - all I need now is something alittle bit more special, in a nice colour. It took me a fair while to figure out saddle height/bars and my core but now I know it its easier/quicker to get there.

- not something thats getting on for a mountain bike steel frame weight

What GT72 was saying, you're not going to get many 'lightweight' steel frames, they're all essentialy the same tubesets just joined in slightly different ways, stay bridges etc will tweak stifness but it's diminishing returns Vs the basic tubesets.

Why not just get a more mid-range carbon or aluminum bike like the CAAD/Supersix/Synapse, a steel bikes not going to be stiffer than the PX up front?

Geetee, I wouldn't agree about frames not varying at lower price levels. Ride a Pacer and an Equilibrium, quite different in every way Imo. What suits the rider is another matter though.

a steel bikes not going to be stiffer than the PX up front?

well that depends on the head tube size and fork diameter plus using a good fork.
my chesini:

[img] [/img]

plenty stiff enough for a 65kg rider. 🙂

All this internet angst is just a distraction thats turning what should be fun and simple, into an endless confused problem.

Nicely summed up.

Why not just get a more mid-range carbon or aluminum bike like the CAAD/Supersix/Synapse, a steel bikes not going to be stiffer than the PX up front?

This. You liked the Defy. Just go buy one and get on with the riding.

Kona Kapu. Kona make some lovely steel bikes and it is nice to see they have brought back a non-fixed steel bike.

My Paddy Waggon is low end steel - Reynolds 520 equivalent, but the geometry is excellent. It does of course have an Enigma monocoque carbon fork and custom wheels and carbon finishing kit, but underneath all that is a simple steel frame that is a sublime (if slightly springy) ride.

Higher end steel buys more lightness, but stiffness is down to tube diameters, so steel frames will, all else being equal, tend to ride very similarly for the same geometry.

I'd personally buy a Pegoretti Responsorium.

+1 MrBlobby

Get a bike that fits, probably aluminium frame & carbon forks for that budget and ride the damn thing.

I liked the Defy but it felt like something a mountain biker would ride. Too sit up and beg(?)

I liked the Defy but it felt like something a mountain biker would ride. Too sit up and beg(?)

Go down a frame size, longer stem, slam it. Or TCR.

plenty stiff enough for a 65kg rider

I liked the Defy but it felt like something a mountain biker would ride. Too sit up and beg(?)

The 'sportive geometry' won't hold you back, it's just different. I prefer racing bikes for the same reason I like sports cars, I'm not Lewis Hamilton or Cav, but that doesn't mean I don't apreciate the stiffness/handling even at lower speeds, they're just 'fun' (but less comfortable than say a Golf-R or Audi S4 or whatever the STW 'making progress estate car of the week' is).

If I had £700 burning a hole in my pocket, I suspect I would go and talk to Bob Jackson. I have one, got it resprayed a few years ago and kept being asked about my new bike on Audaxes. Its at least 20 years old, 531, and just is *right*.

Other frame builders are available - looking at the options is part of the fun isn't it?

I'm not entirely clear what specific 'purpose' you are looking for, but would suggest that well built, nicely painted, classic lines etc will stand you in good stead.

725 equilibrium is a lovely bike. although for £700 you could do a lot better.

why 1 1/8th external?

Geetee, I wouldn't agree about frames not varying at lower price levels. Ride a Pacer and an Equilibrium, quite different in every way Imo. What suits the rider is another matter though.

Far be it for me to suggest to anyone that their experience of reality is flawed. The Pacer frame is quite a bit heavier than the Genesis, about 300g difference (1.8kg vs 2.1kg). If you've got very different wheels and tyres between the two bike then I guess they could end up feeling quite different.

The wheels will make a big difference to the ride feel of any bike. I've spent the last few months riding my training/commuter bike with Dura Ace C35 clinchers (don't ask), and just recently switched back to shop handbuilt H-Plus Sons. They are 300g heavier than the C35s and I really feel this on the climbs and pulling away from lights but they are also quite a bit comfier as well. I would run the C35s every day of the week but the side walls are starting to wear.

If you don't mind disc brakes, Donhou's new Signature off the peg frame floats my boat. Especially the paint job on the down tube. Struggling to post a link on smartphone.

Oh yes, you would need one of those scratch cards as well.

why 1 1/8th external?

I miss a frame with a 1 1/8 King. I know its 'theres newer and better stuff out there' but it goes back to why steel; 'because'. 😀

I'm never going to be chain-ganging, never going to race, never going to be at the front of anything on roadbike. As such I'd like to have a niceish bike, relax, enjoy and not chase grams too much. I've had some great rides over up/down the tops around Kirklees/Calderdale- well especially Huddersfield (and the views*). It helps fitness but also- it keeps you feeling sane. Thats what I want out of road bikes.

*Head down banging out the miles means you miss alot of what your riding through.

You my friend, need to order an Anderson:

[url= https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2920/14007643775_d497c07a9b_o.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2920/14007643775_d497c07a9b_o.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/nkNQtz ]IMG_2403[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/people/9179304@N07/ ]Anderson Custom Bicycles[/url], on Flickr

Don't worry about the price. All you need to do is deposit £700 in a high interest savings account and by the time it's ready the net effect of compound interest will have taken care of the astronimical cost.

[url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/andersonbikes/ ]Anderson Custom Bikes on Flickr[/url]

Too sit up and beg(?)

Head down banging out the miles means you miss alot of what your riding through.

Make your mind up!

Starting to sound like you'd be better on a flat bar'd hybrid if you just want one position but the drops are too low and the tops are too sit up and beg.

Head down banging out the miles means you miss alot of what your riding through

If I went the frame only- what carbon forks are good for <£130. ITM? Easton are too much aren't they?

Too sit up and beg(?)

My Defy has 8 cm saddle to bar drop. Same as my race bike. Get a decent bike that fits you properly. Material is much less important than geometry and fit. Put the miles in. Decide what aspect you'd like to improve; weight, handling, position, fitness...

what carbon forks are good for <£130.

A "sit up and beg bike" earlier...

[img] ?oh=b23b78962f65ef4bd82038caa1dc1110&oe=5552C93F&__gda__=1435459418_8e25f3b4f4907946a519e9b84fe32133[/img]

You need to be careful about buying a road frame without fork and then adding an after market fork. It's easy to do but you need to know what trail the frame was designed around.

It's pretty rare you buy a road frame without a fork. Most manufacturers will be able to supply a good fork far cheaper than you can buy the equivalent.

But if you do then options from Columbus or Dedaccia are usually a good bet. The Columbus Minimal is a good choice and between £120 and £95 if you shop around.

- misquote. I'm talking about the mindset. I'm not riding a roadbike to beat a personal best time, race a mate or go 110% (hence the head down banging out the miles). More- a good pace but easier enough that I can take everything in every so often. Not head down going cross-eyed with effort.

And yet you complain the Defy was too sit up and beg, WTF?!!!

Dragon again. I'm talking about my approach to a roadride I'm not talking about geometry. A road steady ride, cadience below Max.

Why Enigma when there are plenty of places quite close to home?:-

Field are great guys but probably over budget.

Steve Goff is well within budget (Skelmersdale).

Paul Hewitt (Leyland) can supply pretty much anything right up to full custom (and good for frame fitting). His welder comes from the nuclear industry and all frames are beautifully joined with internal argon gas purge (often only done for Ti frames).

Hora you're just looking for the 'goldilocks' bike aren't you. Nothing wrong with that. You can fine tune that feel quite a bit with additional spacers under the stem, bar shape and drop (go for shallow drop/compact bars), stem length and saddle position.

Some other consdierations for you:

[url= http://www.wyndymilla.com/bike/johnny-cake-steel-audax/ ]Windy Millar Johny Cake[/url] - left field suggestion and quite a bit higher than your budget but thought I would suggestit.

So why bother with race geometry then, race bikes aren't designed to be ridden slowly.

What does max cadence even mean? Cadence isn't fixed or a hard limit.

I miss a frame with a 1 1/8 King. I know its 'theres newer and better stuff out there' but it goes back to why steel; 'because

stop looking for a frame just to fit a bit of bling you have sitting in your spares box.

get something tigged and ‘modern’ oversize made out of decent tubing not stovepipe 531 in skinny tubed lugged construction thats harking back to the 70’s that weighs 22lb

with your ultegra bits and a decent wheelset your bike will be 8kg and ride really nicely if you buy something like the enigma.

ride it and stop posting on internet forums. I’m done on this thread, i just want to see the final bike shot now.

Bob Jackson, http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=487 and upgrade to 853, http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=487

That Windy Millar Johny Cake has ruined my lunch, what a god damn awful looking bike.

There aren't two definitive sets of geometry right? Just like on a mountain bike - all the manufacturers dont use all the same angles with the same lengths. There are different styles within. I'd like a happy medium.

Again - I'm not going to ride the bike in anything to do with races or timed. Merely to get out and enjoy.

MrSmith- aye I'll do that. Wanted a roadbike to ride around the edges of London at the crack of dawn this weekend but it'll come. Patience.

There aren't two definitive sets of geometry right?

They are all much of a muchness, road bikes with triangular frames have been around over 100 years, it's all just tweaks here and there.

Merely to get out and enjoy

once you realise its not about the bike, that'll be a whole lot easier.

with your ultegra bits and a decent wheelset your bike will be 8kg

Not impossible but not likely either. My Genesis 853 with Dura Ace 7900 groupset and 35 wheels weighs 9.1kg. I could get it down by taking the mudgaurds off and swaping out the finishing kit, but you'd end up with a £3500 bike to weigh materially less than 9kg.

They are all much of a muchness, road bikes with triangular frames have been around over 100 years, it's all just tweaks here and there.

This in my view also is very true. There are differences in handling between my race bike and my training bike, but when you're mostly riding in a straight line, you don't feel them.

I think about the only time you'd be materially disadvantaged with the wrong geometry would be if you raced a crit' on a touring or TT bike.

Oh and the Windy Millar - yes; gopping it is!

Windy Millar Johny Cake