Multiple sources familiar with the situation have confirmed to us that Joe Graney, the CEO of Santa Cruz Bicycles and COO of Pon's North American bike operations no longer holds those positions.
Reportedly Folkert Lamsvelt, President and CEO of Pon's Pacific Cycle Inc and VP of Pon's bike lifestyle brands, has been tipped as his successor. We are told that Joe will remain in the Pon orbit in an advisory capacity for a period of time.
We're still working out some of the details, but this is a seismic shock in the bike industry. Joe Graney has had a massive impact on the sport, driving the product direction of Santa Cruz and helping lead its ascent from scrappy upstart to one of the biggest mountain bike brands in the world. He's an industry veteran, from his early days as an engineer at Trek, joining Santa Cruz as a contract engineer in the early 2000s, rising through the ranks to COO before being promoted to CEO in 2016. In 2018 Santa Cruz was bought by Dutch conglomerate Pon Holdings, and he took on the additional role of COO Pon's North American bike business.
Copy and paste from Pinkbike.
I love a Santa Cruz, weirdly though i've only owned one for 1 day (sent back due to shock issues on a used Bronson).
But they are to me objects of desire, clean looking, looking really well built... I don't know why but they have 'something' about them...
But are they going to be sucked up into full commercialism now and cut their ties with niche and outstanding warranty?
There seems to be reports of laying off plenty of staff, closing the HQ in Morzine... with some of their sales etc have they got some of their planning wrong ?
I imagine nothing will happen and they'll keep expensive flogging bikes which all look the same as each other, with massive margins, to overpaid IT workers.
Oi! As an overpaid IT worker I resemble that remark!
It’s a strange one for sure. With my massively limited knowledge of the industry, I’d have thought Santa Cruz had one of the highest % markups per bike sold, and they appeared to sell well.
Not just in the US or the UK, for some reason I always thought they sold a lot of bikes through Europe?
Over the last 10 years I thought they had become more mainstream, just with a higher price….and that’s not a dig at Santa Cruz, I just thought they had lost the Californian skater boy vibe.
Can't agree, i think that's an awesome looking thing myself.
So why do we think they are more marked up? Unless you just mean they are sold retail through shops. The warranty presumably needs factoring into the cost and mark up.
NB my most expensive bike cost just over a Santa Cruz frame
Even if they are marked up by a greater margin than some, is that justified by their somewhat infamous warranty/support/bearing process etc ?
Santa Cruz’s greatest achievement has been convincing U.K. bike buyers that they’re still a niche brand.
I’m not even being sarcastic. To have a brand owned by Pon, making frames (very well it seems) in the Far East talked about in the same breath as genuine boutique U.K. and North American made frames is an absolute triumph of marketing and branding skill.
I suspect they’ll carry on just as they have been, making excellent quality frames and selling them for a lot of money to VW Transporter and Mercedes Sprinter 4x4 owners.
closing the HQ in Morzine
they had a headquarters in morzine?
Folk will continue to speculate, based on their perceptions of the brand, despite having little to no knowledge of what’s actually happening?
they had a headquarters in morzine?
Just up from Rhodos/Bar Robinson.... I'd have called it a 'shop' more than a HQ personally... but i guess maybe there were offices etc upstairs which meant it got called a HQ lol.
an absolute triumph of marketing and branding skill.
..with the product to back it up - what they've done is impressive. Consistently some of the most interesting and well-respected bikes for the last 20+ years. They're expensive because they've earned the position where they can charge more, and why wouldn't you?
How that continues under Pon longer-term, we'll see. Huge companies owning multiple brands and dropping in new CEOs, call me cynical but I think it's less likely you get a great 'rider's' product/brand that way - probably more a profitable one though. All depends on management. And much of what Pon has done recently ie shutting down Cannondale UK offices may be about the current state of the industry as much as management approach.
Here we go
Tbey said they will never make an ebike, they had to... and they're not good ones.. they are completely behind the curve.
So why do we think they are more marked up? Unless you just mean they are sold retail through shops. The warranty presumably needs factoring into the cost and mark up.
a specialized stumpjumper comp is a carbon trail bike with GX drivetrain and mid-level suspension, sold through retail shops with a lifetime warranty
a santa cruz hightower 3 S is a carbon trail bike with GX drivetrain and mid-level suspension, sold through retail shops with a lifetime warranty
one of those bikes is £3900, the other is £5700. You can buy a lot of bearings for £1800.
what next,
- they'll continue selling high priced bikes to cash rich individuals and/or those who have strived to own one.
- meanwhile Joe will spend more time with family then either get bored and take on a rich paying consultancy job at a struggling rival, or go back to basics and set up his own bespoke cycle company.
Can’t agree, i think that’s an awesome looking thing myself.
It doesn't look bad but I have no idea what model it is. It could be any one of them which is the same problem that Orange have. A huge range of almost identical bikes in a dozen different colours.
They've definitely lost their magic aura since the glory days of Peaty, Ratboy and Minnaar. The best gauge for me is going to Wharny and checking what all the stoned students have spent their loans on. For a few years it was 100% Santa Cruz and now there's a real mixture.
Now that the whole 50:01 crew are off Santa Cruz, all they have in common are mullets and XXXL t-shirts.
What I find really interesting in these brand trajectories is how a brand may be bought by a large company for its ability to get a higher margin, yet over time the influence of that large company's ownership can reduce the brand's ability to command that higher price. There's a sweet-spot of brand value and scale ..reality, credibility?.. that many brands grow beyond.
I'm no MBA type but I'm tempted to say it's largely down to the vision and priorities of key people and the influence it has, because the rest is 'simply' finance, structure and logistics which are more objective. So when someone like this steps back at a brand like SC it can be significant.
What now for Santa Cruz ?
Same shit different CEO. That's what.
Haters gonna hate. Fans gonna still be fans.
It will have remarkably little impact on riders and owners, but possibly bigger ramifications within the business (which most of us will be blissfully unaware of). I would wager that most of us don't know the corporate structure of the brands that we buy. Yet because the mountain bike industry is still relatively young and its growth has been strong, we are now seeing the influx of big business and consolidation and the almost inevitable exit of the pioneering owner/operator/founder type figures from the business. The characteristics that make a great leader in the entrepreneurial early days are often quite different from those required to run the same brand when it becomes more corporate. It's natural, but most of these brands haven't been run like they were in the early years for a good while now. Nostalgia ain't what it used to be!
It's the same old value for money debate (blah, blah), but that aside they make good bikes with strong support and backup. I have owned a few. Always started with an end of season colour way of a current model and built it myself as the full RSP current model year complete builds have always offered questionable value.
In a contracting market it is quite normal for brands to cut overheads and the more frivolous end of their marketing activity (eg Morzine - most people go there with their own bike, so I guess it is more of an image thing and they probably have other bills to pay that offer great ROI).
Nothing to see here. Keep riding!
one of those bikes is £3900, the other is £5700.
While I agree with your assessment 100%, I think we both know that to the vast majority of the buying public, the Hightower is more 'desirable', which is why they can sell it for 40% more. The bearings are just a gimme.
have they got some of their planning wrong ?
No, they are just suffering from the boom bust of COVID the same as every other bike brand and bike shop
Interestingly Stif, the UK distro is still announcing athletes and influencers riding SC bikes this year so they aren't pulling the purse strings too tight
It was a retail unit, which you couldn’t buy anything in
You could, just not bikes. It was basically a promo tool to show the bikes on display. The actual Santa Cruz European HQ is down the road from Morzine, near Cluses, and it's not open to the public
So why do we think they are more marked up?
It probably doesn't account for all of it, but I'm pretty sure they still have their own factory making frames and the linkages are still made in the USA (ref: their recent YT vids).
No, they are just suffering from the boom bust of COVID the same as every other bike brand and bike shop
This, probably.
As many say, they'll keep going forward, they seem to be better structured than most, have a Stif shop nearby and they seem to have a decent setup, i've never owned a SC, but always think about it, but then something else comes up, yes they're expensive new, but in the sales they're always pretty much the same as the 'lesser' brands, so you always get that chance to buy at a less horrific price point.
Does this mean the Heckler SL may be discounted soon?
I’ve been to the Morzine “HQ”. Sort of looked like a museum/touchy-feely type place with bikes.
Coincidentally, I’ve had an email from Stif and the GX spec models are now 50% off.
Anyway, back to baseless speculation about the top of the corporate tree at Santa Cruz, this;
We are told that Joe will remain in the Pon orbit in an advisory capacity for a period of time.
Suggests to me at least that this is a personal decision, as opposed to some knives out coup for lack of performance. You don't stay on for a bit to advise if the boardroom is covered in metaphorical blood.
I am not sure a new boss will make any difference to the consumer unless they suddenly start changing the look of the bikes.
I think its a similar thing to Orange but slightly different. They used to have a USP of being expensive good bikes. The super light was my dream bike when it came out. But that USP now its negative as anyone who is seen on a SC is noted as more cash than sense and drives an Audi.
I did comment on the Orange thread that this is the first year I have seen SC with some significant discounts
eeksy
Just up from Rhodos/Bar Robinson…. I’d have called it a ‘shop’ more than a HQ personally… but i guess maybe there were offices etc upstairs which meant it got called a HQ lol.
Ah right - I knew about the shop in morzine, been in a few times. seems a bit of a stretch to call it an HQ.
Still having Jackson Goldstone is marketing gold.
DH WC round winner, contender for every podium & title, Hardline winner, Whip off champ, Canadian, young, media savvy. Way more international appeal than the 50-01 kruw. I suspect Minnars none-wages went to keep Jackson.
I’ve got one. In fact I’ve got the previous gen 5010 weeksy posted (in a different colour).
I’m not sure what the definition of boutique is, but I’m 100% sure I don’t care that they are apparently not it anymore.
I do care that they sponsor successful racers, although I’m aware this means I’m paying more. I’d conversely also be happy with a brand that didn’t do this, either due to its size, or lower cost or both.
I bought frame only on sale. They are a lot of money full price.
on the original topic of Joe, seems he is a mtber through and through, rather than a career businessman who happens to be in the bike industry.
perhaps after 7 years as CEO plus everything before, he’s just realised he’s got enough money and wants to go ride his bike some more?
I suspect they’ll carry on just as they have been, making excellent quality frames and selling them for a lot of money to VW Transporter and Mercedes Sprinter 4×4 owners.
But that USP now its negative as anyone who is seen on a SC is noted as more cash than sense and drives an Audi.
Not sure if it's pure jealousy, or some weird British class hangup, but this kind of nonsense follows every SC thread
They're not unusually expensive compared to a lot of the competition, they're well made, brilliant warranty and support, and are invariably very good bikes
Contrast to Yeti, who are more expensive, are hugely failure prone, have a maintenance heavy slider built into the suspension and have weak warranty support - but there's not this gang of obsessives on every thread going on about their image or their owners
nickc
Suggests to me at least that this is a personal decision, as opposed to some knives out coup for lack of performance. You don’t stay on for a bit to advise if the boardroom is covered in metaphorical blood.
It's usually just corporate speak for a period of gardening leave while they pay him off over a period of time instead of a lump sum, I doubt he will even be able to get into the building today.
Man changes job. Don’t think it’s that seismic?
I'm in this camp.
Looks like a corporate restructure / belt tightening as they've probably got a cashflow issue at the mo. Owners PON possibly using that as an excuse to get more hands-on?
Highly doubt the brand is facing the same kind of existential threat as Orange.
SC do a good job of maintaining desirability in the UK with limited stock availability
That limited they were 40% off most places to clear stock towards the end of last year?
I'm also aware of one shop that was even offering deals on the new models just to get sales.
Looks like a corporate restructure / belt tightening as they’ve probably got a cashflow issue at the mo. Owners PON possibly using that as an excuse to get more hands-on?
Apparently PON do have issues, but given their funding/structure, nobody really knows the full details or how bad they actually are.
However given the state of the industry, that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
I do love a bike brand forum food fight. Its the same with Orange some people hate them some love them or what they used to be. Its the same with Santa. Some think they are over priced bikes and this I can agree with as a full bike the prices are high compared to others . Frame only with the bargin discount on last years frames seems to be a sensible choice and putting them in reach of the none T6 drivers or mere mortals as most seem to think.
I will say the support and back up you get from them in my opinion is one of the best ive seen in any industry . Durying the height of the pandemic and 48 hour turn around on a swing arm at no cost and two replacement frames for no cost due to very small defects . So if paying a little extra offers a service far better than most and the bikes ride well .. i mean well ! why wouldnt you .
They are far from a super bike brand these days with Hope and the Athertons offerings I mean lets face with whats the cost of a Trek Slash frame £4200 ... They have seen a down turn in sales like everyone in the industry and as part of a group big bosses look at numbers . Still thinking sales would hit the 2020 dizzy heights with out looking at the real world see Orange thread again ...
Ps i dont drive and Audi im not a dentist and i dont have more money than sense just I bought a couple of bikes I like riding and have had great experience with Pon and Jungle before .
Probably no major change.
Going back to the marketing triumph of convincing the UK public that Santa Cruz are somehow boutique or premium, I think this dates back to before the Pon days. Back in the 2000s a Santa Cruz cost about the same in the US as the equivalent Specialized. However, they sold the bikes and frames to their European distributors for the US retail cost.
The European distributors then had to sell them at premium prices and they must have marketed them incredibly well. I remember them being desirable when I was reading MBUK as a teenager, but when I visited the US was amazed how much cheaper they were, even allowing for tax. Way cheaper than any other brand. I can't say I find them desirable now - they don't look anything special to me.
Graney always seemed to be on the rider's side - he liked straightforward, common sense design like threaded BBs that made life for owners easier. I suspect he's been booted out because he spent too much money on headtubes - they all look ridiculously long on the current batch of bikes.
‘Not sure if it’s pure jealousy, or some weird British class hangup, but this kind of nonsense follows every…’
Quote not working. No Santa Cruz hate here, and certainly no jealousy. Nice as they are, they don’t offer what I want from a bike so I haven’t bought one. I mean what I say about their marketing, I think it’s brilliant, and their bikes seem to be able to back that up.
What they’re not though, is a boutique or ‘core’ brand, and you only need to go to BPW on a weekend to get a pretty good idea of what their main market is. Again no hate, they do what they do well.
I also agree they’re not a million miles off price-wise some of the rest of the market, albeit some of their standard builds have a pretty dire spec.
And for what it’s worth I wouldn’t buy a Yeti either, on the basis that an extra and expensive to service and replace ‘mini shock’ right where it’s going to get covered in U.K. gritty mud seems like a terrible proposition for those of us who ride year round.
I suspect he’s been booted out because he spent too much money on headtubes – they all look ridiculously long on the current batch of bikes.
The one bonus of this was if buying second hand forks from an SC owner, you didn't have to worry about the steerer being cut down too much.
Silver linings and all that. 😉
I imagine the accounts saw the accrual they've made for the warranty on Reserve wheels and thought he's lost his mind.
Two sir ... you must be private practice
Can’t agree, i think that’s an awesome looking thing myself.
How so? It's got more angles than a protractor...
Two sir … you must be private practice
😂😂 I all seriousness, I have always thought they're overpriced, but I like how they ride, along with the warranty. I have a Hightower and a Chameleon.
The Hightower is a few years old now, and I hesitated at the price I paid for the frame back then. They've gone up about another £300-400 since then - and I'd be very hard pressed to pull the trigger on another. I got a cracking deal on the Chameleon and built up the frame with some old parts I had around.
Before the Hightower I had a few Transitions. Extremely good bikes, but the finish was poor, and the experience I had with their warranty for crap paint wasn't great. They've probably rectified lots of that by now.
How so? It’s got more angles than a protractor…
Not sure exactly, some things just make you go "mmmmm yeah" and for me a nice SC in yellow or raspberry kinda do that for me. I have no clue whether i'd like how one rides as i've never ridden one. But as an object of desire, it's just 'right' to me.
Can’t agree, i think that’s an awesome looking thing myself.
How so? It’s got more angles than a protractor…
Some people like Mondrian. Some people like Van Gogh.
One man's protractor is another man's dreambike.
Fair to say from the numbers out on the trail that plenty of people like them.
Or ahead of the curve – isn’t more stack the next big thing?
I wouldnt say ahead of the curve, but to be fair, disproportionately short stack heights on bikes that have got bigger & bigger is a total pain in the ass for us taller folk.
The bikes seem really good now. They've caught up with modern geometry and they're supposed to ride pretty well.
But like Orange, I wouldn't stump up RRP for one.
There's a lot of whinging about PON (more on PB comments that here TBF), but it's ironic that they seem to have nailed the bikes after being taken over by a faceless multinational corporation.
I’ve been to the Morzine “HQ”. Sort of looked like a museum/touchy-feely type place with bikes.
I guess it's like Luis Vuitton having shops in major airports. Part of the plan, luxury goods brands positioning themselves like that.
I suspect he’s been booted out because he spent too much money on headtubes – they all look ridiculously long on the current batch of bikes.
As a tall bloke who cares about bike fit more than looks, I chose my XL Bronson specifically because of the tall head tube, and even then I run a 30mm riser and 30mm of spacers. No other brand offered anything close to the right geometry for me.
Yet again, different strokes for different folks.
Having said all of that, I am not sure what all of this means to change of CEO unless the incoming one will also double hat as head of geometry.......
I have a Tallboy. It cost a fortune but I don’t spend my money on anything else. I ride it pretty much every day and I’m not rich.
I love it. Not because it’s “boutique” but the build quality is superb. I like VPP suspension and I like the “free” bearings. I also had a 2018 Hightower with a paint defect replaced no questions asked last year.
There’s a weird inverse snobbery thing going on here when every 2nd topic is about campervans, watches and expensive riding holidays.
Also the dentist jokes are well past their sell-by date 🙂
I'll admit, Santa Cruz as a brand has never appealed to me, but I do admire how their marketing has given them some kind of exclusive desirability.
Personally if I wanted a main stream brand, I'd rather have a Trek or Specialized.
As for the stereotypes, I did bump into somebody I knew who'd recently bought a SC. I jokingly asked them when they were getting the T6 to go with it, and they said they'd just bought a new Audi instead 🤣
I know a dentist, he's spent hundreds of thousands on racing yachts, has several sports cars and properties. Never seen him riding a bicycle tbh. I'd have thought silly priced bicycles are more likely to be bought by kids priced out of the housing market with some money to burn once the rent is paid.
As above I bought an alloy Tallboy for local duties that frame due to a small issue was warrented with a v5 cc version at very little cost to me over the free c version. I paid £1800 for the alloy frame then another 300 for the CC upgrade which was my choice and for resale in the future should i ever need my head examining . Rapid is one way to call the it on almost every level , light looks the part and is sooo much fun to ride even to the point I was debating taking it o Morzine this year instead of its bigger mega brother . Besides it makes me laugh when you turn up at the trail head with a £5k+ bike on the roof of a 3k car .
but I do admire how their marketing has given them some kind of exclusive desirability.
As above, this has not influenced my decision to buy one in any way. I don’t do trail centres so no opportunity to show it off.
They make really decent bikes, backed up by an amazing warranty.
3k car
3k car sir! Must be private practice... I'm in a 18 year old Octavia with 215k on the clock 😂 worth probably nothing.
I know a dentist, he’s spent hundreds of thousands on racing yachts, has several sports cars and properties. Never seen him riding a bicycle tbh.<br /><br />
it’s more of a US trope (although your yacht friend seems to fit too) where a dentist commands a large salary but unlike many other high earning professionals they aren’t typically saddled with big commutes, business travel, 80 hour weeks, unsociable shift patterns etc. plus there are dentists everywhere, whereas there probably isn’t much call for investment banking in Moab. <br />Free time and large disposable income in a small city or large town means the chance to buy your way into any number of equipment heavy outdoor activities, not just mtb.
Is it just me, or are they not quite as aspirational as they used to be anyway?
Definitely. They are a mainstream brand like Trek and Specialized who all make great bikes (at a similar price range…) backed up with a great warranty. I just happen to prefer Santa Cruz.
Disagree about 'Specialized' and 'great warranty' in the same sentence.
'Total whhaaaaaannnankers' is what I'd have described them as when I had to get a frame that had a fatigue crack mid-span on a tube sorted (which wasn't sorted)..
Don't know much about the business but my brother visited the factory when out in California last year and was very impressed. Came away with the impression that they made all the carbon in house though I'm not sure that's correct. He was impressed enough to buy one (2nd hand) for my nephew.
I'm not set on the looks as the bend DT is a no-no for me and the top link is just too long and makes it look like a BSO but I'd consider one if the price was right and I wasn't more into steel skinnyness.
I did listen to one of the podcasts back in the summer when Joe was on it and he did come across as a sound guy. All the best to him for the future.
Came away with the impression that they made all the carbon in house though I’m not sure that’s correct.
Check out their Factory Tour playlist - from memory the frames (minus linkages etc) are made overseas but the Reserve carbon rims are made in house.
My daughter’s bike begs to differ
Disqualified for having colour matched Hope kit.
Tbey said they will never make an ebike, they had to… and they’re not good ones.. they are completely behind the curve.
How so? I spent a couple of months riding a Bullit and it was the best handling full fat eBike I've ridden, also the lightest. Coincidence? Yeah, the Shimano motor wouldn't be my choice but ridden solo it was great. With a Two Battery Turbo **** on a Levo the motor's shortcomings were clear but that doesn't make it a bad bike.
The colour matching Hope kit is nice, the rest is meh, any bikes with the shocks down there look wrong.
(Oh I’m a SC owner, but even if had cash, I wouldn’t buy a current FS from them)
I've owned multiple Santa Cruz bikes right from their beginning with the first Heckler(before it became the Superlight) right up until the first Hightower.
They were all well put together bikes and on the few occasions I had to use the warranty it was delt with without fuss.
I'm not now and never have been a dentist or an IT person.
However they did seem to get left behind a few year ago with their geo so I stopped buying them.
They just don't appeal to me anymore for some reason so I doubt I'll be buying another anytime soon.
I used to see them everywhere at my local trails just a few years ago, they were definitely the brand to have. Now everyone is riding ebikes, but none of them are Santa Cruz.
I owned a VP Free years ago, it was lovely but they don't do anything that floats my boat these days.
Now everyone is riding ebikes, but none of them are Santa Cruz.Now everyone is riding ebikes, but none of them are Santa Cruz.
They're quite new in a relative term to Ebikes.
honourablegeorge
Full MemberContrast to Yeti, who are more expensive, are hugely failure prone, have a maintenance heavy slider built into the suspension and have weak warranty support – but there’s not this gang of obsessives on every thread going on about their image or their owners
That's because Santa Cruzes are still popular while no bugger buys a yeti. Seriously, how many do you see of each on the trails? I can literally remember seeing one yeti in the last year, whereas pretty much every ride I'll see a santa cruz or a flock of them.
That’s because Santa Cruzes are still popular while no bugger buys a yeti. Seriously, how many do you see of each on the trails? I can literally remember seeing one yeti in the last year, whereas pretty much every ride I’ll see a santa cruz or a flock of them
Depends where you are, I guess. I see a few Yetis about, not anywhere near the scale of SC though.
I have an outright prejudice against Yeti though, from past experiences. So I automatically assume when someone is on one; they are either someone who barely rides it so it doesn’t fall apart, a total punter who doesn’t ride it hard enough for it to fall apart, or a supported rider, so when it does fall apart, it gets dealt with.
The Irony is that having been arguably late to the ebike party from what I have been told by friends in the industry is that they have become a ebike manufacturer who does a few normal bike on the side, a bit like Porsche who are now an suv brand that makes a few sports cars on the side. Such has been the swing in demand for their products
