[Closed] What needs to be done to improve cycle safety in the UK?

4. More cyclists.

The Critical Mass idea is solid, but misguided.

Presumed liability would be a good start, which is your second point. The Scots are thinking about this IIRC.

In a conversation with some Dutch people they attributed cycle safety to presumed liability, it allowed cyclists to disregard any of the rules of the road or basic common sense ideas the rest of the world has 🙂

Some better infrastructure, better acceptance of cycling and more cyclists.

sadly, safe cycling will never happen in the uk.
we are one of the laziest and most pig headed races in the world.
our mentality is 'i word hard long hours, to buy my car, so i will use it no matter what, it is my right'.
so even if a journey is easier by bike/walk/bus we will still get in our car and block up the roads.

sadly this will never change in our want it now/i deserve it/it is my right society.

I agree that better infrastructure in towns and cities will help, but for those of us who cycle in rural England on narrow single lanes with passing places it won't.

Presumed liability would though. The driver may think twice about trying to squeeze past rather than waiting the 50 ft ahead for the passing place

Take every motorised vehicle off the road network.

That'll fixit

🙄

Presumed liability would though. The driver may think twice about trying to squeeze past rather than waiting the 50 ft ahead for the passing place

Makes it a rule that you have to pass a cycling test before you get a motorised licence. You can't go on the road until you've experienced it under your own steam. I know, not very realistic but it would help.

A change of motorists attitude. Without that change even with more people cycling it will just result in more accidents. There are many motorists who are not that tolerable to other road users, be that cyclists, horse riders, tractors, caravans. Many think they have the right to the road and nobody should be in the way to slow them down.

Randomly arming some cyclists. The motorist won't know if the close pass will get a hand gesture or a hail of hot lead through the rear screen. 😈

There needs to be a substantial change of views. Cyclist would need to be seen as a traffic with equal rights. Few motorists really cut up horse for example. I am talking of a factor of maybe a hundred or thousand, not just a bit more.
A bit like drink driving, the desire to get everywhere so quickly has to become socially unacceptable. It is a sad situation but nowadays everyone wants everything NOW. Fast broadband, next day parcels and getting from a to b 30 seconds quicker.
I don't really worry to much about being seen on the bike. Good lights and sensible clothes help. What scare me is the stupid passing and squeezing though etc.
Sadly I doubt the attitude will never change although maybe a few high profile deaths such as Prince Harry or a dozen kids in one hit may help for a few days.
Cyclist attitudes could help. Mass rides wind drivers up and leave them irritated with all cyclist. Sad but true.

Ton must be good at diy. He has hit the nail squarely on the head.

I am increasingly of the view that what is needed is properly segregated cycle infrastructure anywhere with a high traffic density. I also take the view (entirely unrealistically) that to get this 50% of it ought to come out of existing roads so that in the short term traffic gets substantially worse. If we carry on improving car capacity on the roads the short term positive impact reinforces the idea that driving (especially in urban and suburban areas) is a good way of getting around. Then those habits become harder to break and round we go again. Best keep dreaming!

I am increasingly turning my back on the car aas transport. I have gone from commuting 200 miles a week by car to 40miles and that's only because I go out somewhere straight from work once a week otherwise I would pretty much only drive at weekends (and when necessary for my job. If you live anywhere near a major city or town it is surpsurprisingly easy and I reckon my blood pressure has dropped substantially!

Ton must be good at diy. He has hit the nail squarely on the head.

I am increasingly of the view that what is needed is properly segregated cycle infrastructure anywhere with a high traffic density. I also take the view (entirely unrealistically) that to get this 50% of it ought to come out of existing roads so that in the short term traffic gets substantially worse. If we carry on improving car capacity on the roads the short term positive impact reinforces the idea that driving (especially in urban and suburban areas) is a good way of getting around. Then those habits become harder to break and round we go again. Best keep dreaming!

The attitude thing is a massive problem but so is competence of all road users. While it needs to be beaten that's possibly going to be too difficult or long term to be an answer without other intervention

I am increasingly turning my back on the car aas transport. I have gone from commuting 200 miles a week by car to 40miles and that's only because I go out somewhere straight from work once a week otherwise I would pretty much only drive at weekends (and when necessary for my job. If you live anywhere near a major city or town it is surpsurprisingly easy and I reckon my blood pressure has dropped substantially!

Agree with Ton. I suspect it's not really about infrastructure, it's bigger than that. Perhaps it's more about culture. A possessive right of way ownership and use, self-centred mentality in too many people, class obsession that feeds into car use, high stress levels etc.

Denmark or Netherlands are 'happier' societies by all surveys or measures, general bike use from an early age and are safer places to cycle. Empathy and tolerance is higher, probably stress levels lower.

There are 240000 miles of road in the uk and only 20% are heavily used. The infrastructure is there. Remove he term accident from vocabulary - there is no such thing; there is always a cause. That cause results in serious injury. My view is greater penalties for causing injury and death.

I think one of the major problems we have at the moment is that the people making the decisions on cycling infrastructure aren't cyclists and don't really understand the issues and so do what they think is best, but usually get it wrong!

We've also got an issue in that cycling isn't just cycling, a commuter or wannabe racer doing 15-20mph has very different needs and wants to a family going for a nice Sunday ride or a little old lady pootling to the shops!

The biggest problem is one of a lack of space and a selfish culture!

Driverless cars people are generally really bad at driving , see the car as an extension of their ego and over estimate their abilities. Better road policing actual qualified coppers driving around issuing summonses for bad driving rather than fixed cameras catching people who exceed the speed limit by a particular margin at a particular point on the road.

Education of drivers. A proper campaign showing how to pass bikes safely, and how waiting a few seconds to do so won't actually slow you down much if at all.

Real enforcement of laws against dangerous drivers. Harsher sentencing, and lifetime bans for those who kill. Retests after any seriousl traffic collision involving a vulnerable road user.

Stop the press publishing stupid cyclist hate opinion pieces. Start a serious drive to present bikes in a positive light - "one less car" means one car out of your way at the next set of lights, etc.

In the long term, good infra will help, obviously, but that's going to take ages if it happens at all. There's plenty of things that can be done to make things better now.

It's all down to car drivers' attitudes and an over inflated view of their skills.
Even on a cycling forum we see people extolling the virtues of traffic law infringement on the basis that they know better - traffic laws should be enforced rigidly, lifetime bans, destruction of vehicles and injuries/deaths inflicted carrying more severe penalties.

3. Making all cyclists have insurance or basic cycle proficiency?

Please please please remove this from the thread before someone thinks this is actually a good idea.

+1 regarding Ton's comments. In our office of eleven staff there is only one member who lives further from work than me. I cycle to work (4 miles shortest route) every day and my colleagues think I'm either superhuman or mad ! The remainder of the staff live within two miles of work and all drive. We have a staff car park that can accommodate six cars. You can imagine the 'parking wars' every day. Despite this no one would consider walking/cycling/bus to work for the very reasons that Ton has mentioned. I work in a small town and have cycled to work for the last five years. You get to notice the same cars/people on a regular journey and also notice where people live/work etc. I'm pretty sure a surprisingly large number of the people who drive past me every morning could use another form of transport rather than getting into the car.

flanagaj - Member

3. Making all cyclists have insurance or basic cycle proficiency?

ok, you've asked this as a question, so i'll try and be gentle.

it's a terrible idea.

thousands of people die everyear because they don't do any/enough exerciese.

thousands of people die every year because of air polution - with vehicle exhausts being the main source.

we've turned all or most of our towns into truly unpleasant places - all with the single aim of making them faster to drive through, to the expense of everything else.

there aren't many golden-bullet-solutions, but an increase in cycling would solve many of our most serious problems, save many thousands of lives, and generally go a long way to making everything lovely and brilliant.

it won't happen if we put useless barriers in the way.

(useless barriers like compulsory insurance and helmets)

fwiw, i [i]have[/i] insurance, does this make me any safer?

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sadly, safe cycling will never happen in the uk.
we are one of the laziest and most pig headed races in the world.
our mentality is 'i word hard long hours, to buy my car, so i will use it no matter what, it is my right'.
so even if a journey is easier by bike/walk/bus we will still get in our car and block up the roads.

sadly this will never change in our want it now/i deserve it/it is my right society.

I think Ton is definitely on to something here. If you look at Germany there is hardly any segregated use infrastructure, but drivers are just a bit more considerate and don't take the Michael.

I think the media, especially papers like the Evening standard, have had quite a corrosive effect. I walk, drive, do a bit of cycling on the road [used to commute] and mountain bike. I don't really see myself as a walker / driver / road cyclist / mtbker. These are just things I happen to do. But lazy journalists and lazy thinkers want to put us into boxes, to make a an easier narrative, battle of wills.

You see some really irresponsible columns, which are essentially hate speech and influence attitudes, reducing safety. Equally there are a tiny minority of self-righteous cyclists, often with environmentalist inclinations, who absolutely hate cars. Its like Neo-cons vs Anjem Choudary.

Cars and bikes are useful and we can learn to get along by behaving like adults. Lorries and commercial goods vehicles we probably need to regulate hours and streets for - HGVs shouldn't be in small streets.

1. We have all seen TV adverts warning motorists to look out for motorcyclists. Where is the TV campaign regarding those of us who use pedal power?

Presumed liability would though. The driver may think twice about trying to squeeze past rather than waiting the 50 ft ahead for the passing place

There is a major flaw in your logic. It assumes that the driver currently doesn't care if he has an accident. Do you really believe that the majority of drivers approach a cyclist and have some sort of conscious or sub-conscious decision to risk (a) damaging their car, (b) injuring or killing a cyclist and (c) prosecution and decide ah yeah its OK they might not prove I did anything wrong I'll blunder on. I dare say there are a tiny number of idiots who are[i] intentionally [/i]reckless but I doubt presumed liability does anything about them. The reality is the others all think they can get passed and are driving safely (this may be more disturbing!).

You have missed another possibility - more proactive detection and prosecution of "bad" driving (and bad cycling). You shouldn't (and don't in law) need to actually cause an accident to be prosecuted. I believe there are differences in how active road traffic enforcement is across the country. It would be interesting to see if there was a correlation between that and accident rates.

Wirral council has one part time cycling member of staff dealing with cycling and the next county cheshire west has no cycling staff dealing with cycling , so we have piece meal cycling routes,mostly on footways, from some excellent dedicated off road routes that where created 5 plus years ago.

As a cyclist i dont want to cyle past illegally parked cars on footways, past peoples drives , where they cant reverse in but find it totally acceptable to reverse out into traffic without any consideration for footway users.

I want proper and effective enforcement of all trafic laws wether broken by motorists or cyclists.

ton - Member
sadly, safe cycling will never happen in the uk.
we are one of the laziest and most pig headed races in the world.
our mentality is 'i word hard long hours, to buy my car, so i will use it no matter what, it is my right'.
so even if a journey is easier by bike/walk/bus we will still get in our car and block up the roads.

sadly this will never change in our want it now/i deserve it/it is my right society.

Well said Ton.

You've got to change society. Too many people who take themselves too seriously, too many people with small man syndrome, too many people with too much testosterone, too many trying to keep up with the Jones's, too many who are closed minded, too many that love "stuff & things", too many that are unhappy but can't see it/won't admit it, too many folk in a rush, too many who don't look out for each other, too many that never think, too many caught up in their own little world etc. etc. It's all related, and I guess we're all guilty of it at some point.

There needs to be a huge change; people need to be told (because unfortunately alot can't think for themselves) that happiness is not about the size of your car or the size of your TV or Hifi etc. People should be encouraged to do positive things with their time/money. This sounds like complete hippy bollocks, and it is, I'm cringing as I type it. But it's the truth!

Also, a ban on cars with engines bigger than 1.2 litres would be a good start. It'll never happen unfortunately.

"You have missed another possibility - more proactive detection and prosecution of "bad" driving (and bad cycling). You shouldn't (and don't in law) need to actually cause an accident to be prosecuted. I believe there are differences in how active road traffic enforcement is across the country. It would be interesting to see if there was a correlation between that and accident rates. "

This I agree with. Bad driving needs to be singled out as a cause celebre and become socially unacceptable. Unfortunately we continue to be fixated on the micro like lowering the DD limit etc which is not actually tackling the problem. Terms like 'spirited driving' or 'enthusiastic driving' need to be seen for what they are. Maybe certain maneoevers need to be outlawed like overtaking on a single carridgeway road - just like you can't U-turn on a dual carridgeway for instance. We need a seismic shift in the attitude of the motorist brought on by high prosecution levels and public opinion - then safer cycling will follow naturally as well as obviously saving many motorists lives.

EDIT: However I do see a very nasty undercurrent of actual hatred towards cyclists at the moment. This is very recent, something I've not experienced in the other countries I lived in (Oz,France,Netherlands) and scares me. I am seeing far more instances of bad driving and animostity aimed at cyclists in general (both on and off road) at the moment and can only think that it stems from an increase in numbers

Okay, there's clearly a limit to how many characters you can post.

I'll try again...

.

I dare say there are a tiny number of idiots who are intentionally reckless but I doubt presumed liability does anything about them. The reality is the others all think they can get passed and are driving safely (this may be more disturbing!).

You have missed another possibility - more proactive detection and prosecution of "bad" driving (and bad cycling). You shouldn't (and don't in law) need to actually cause an accident to be prosecuted. I believe there are differences in how active road traffic enforcement is across the country. It would be interesting to see if there was a correlation between that and accident rates.

This above. Most people think [i]they[/i] drive safely and sensibly and the problem is everyone else. In reality of course the truth is very different. I honestly believe that the answer lies in both better education, and better enforcement of general driving standards.
Better education....... Perhaps a change to car provisional licences to that of motorcycles for starters, where you are not let loose in a car until you have done some basic training off the public roads first, and achieved an acceptable standard of basic car control. Not the biggest issue, granted, as few people are killed by learner drivers I suspect, but it would enable to provision of better basic training for all. In an era when you have to go on a full day course before you can use a ruddy step ladder, and three days for a basic first aid course (three DAYS.... TO PUT A RUDDY PLASTER ON A CUT,!!) it beggars belief that you can pay a small fee for a provisional license and jump in with your dad/mum etc with zero training at all and pick it up as you go!
More education is called for in the media, and action needs to be taken against the £@&;s that effectively incite poor behaviour on the roads. Again, if this was an "industry" no way would the death toll be tolerated.

Enforcement. ..... Speed cameras work. They do. People stop speeding past them. But they only work at that spot. In life, What stops people from offending, or in general being naughty, is not the likely penalty, but the likelihood of getting caught. At t eh moment the chances of getting pulled for a driving offence is very slim. The odds are very low, with the number of drivers and the small number of traffic officers. Automation is called for. Unmarked civilian cars, with cameras fitted, driven by civilians trained to recognise road traffics offences touring around. When they spot an offence, eg passing too close to a cyclist, driving on the phone, passing on double whites to name but a few that are clear cut, they press a button on the dash to index the recording, at a the end of the day, they pass the recording to an officer, they review the indexed sections, and issue a fixed penalty notice a la speed camera system, via ANPR with a link to view the video evidence. Go t I magistrates court if you like but make it double or quits there. It would educate and enforce. Cost effective behavioural change when you consider the cost of each death on the road being millions

But unlikely to happen, for the reasons that Ton has outlined earlier. Easier to just let a few more plebs get killed each year than do something that would make easy headlines for the daily mail.

Make all drivers spend an hour riding a bike around a busy town centre once a year, to give then some insight.

In this country.. driverless cars. People can't be trusted to drive safely.

The following used to be a PDF on the DFT website but it's since been removed, which is a shame as I think it contains some useful pointers for both types of road user...

[b]Drive safe, cycle safe[/b]

Motorists and cyclists both have a right to use Britain's roads - a right to safe and enjoyable travel. Both share a responsibility to understand each other's needs - and to respond positively.

This information aims to make motorists and cyclists more aware of one another, and to counter the intolerance that can develop between them - in short, to establish a climate of mutual courtesy and care
What cyclists would like motorists to know

Cyclists are more vulnerable than motorists - drivers have the major responsibility to take care. Rain, wind and poor visibility make conditions worse for cyclists.

Cyclists can feel threatened by inconsiderate driving. They have a right to space on the road and need extra room at junctions and roundabouts where cars change speed, position and direction.

Cyclists ride away from the kerb, not to annoy motorists but to:
avoid drains, potholes and debris
be seen as they come to junctions with side roads
discourage drivers from squeezing past when it's too narrow

Cyclists turning right are exposed - and need extra consideration from motorists, especially on multi-lane roads with fast-moving traffic.

Cyclists can be forced into faster traffic - by vehicles parked in cycle lanes, at junctions or on double yellow lines.

Cyclists are dazzled by full-beam headlights, like everyone else.

Cyclists can be fast movers - 20mph or more.

What motorists can do

Think bike. Expect to see cyclists, and take care.

Slow down and drive smoothly. Keep within speed limits. Expect sudden movements by cyclists, especially in windy weather and on bad road surfaces.

Signal: always at roundabouts and every time you pass a cyclist Watch for riders on the inside when you turn left. Don't cut them up.

Give cyclists space - at least half a car's width - and never force past them. Be patient - a few seconds for a cyclist hardly affects your total journey time.

Right-turning cyclists need space and time.

Park considerately. Always look for cyclists before opening a car door.

Use dipped headlights.

Expect speed from bikes. Think of a bike as a vehicle - it is.

[b]
What motorists would like cyclists to know[/b]

Motorists get upset if cyclists ride without lights at night, ignore red traffic lights or hop on and
off the pavement.

Motorists usually travel faster than cyclists and may have less time to take account of hazards.

Motorists may not always see cyclists.

Motorists are made uneasy when cyclists seem hesitant, move out suddenly or wobble around potholes.

Motorists can feel delayed by cyclist.

Motorists don't always understand that some road surfaces, junctions or traffic conditions cause
problems for cyclists.

What cyclists can do

Follow the Highway Code.

Don't
jump red lights
ride on pavements (unless they are shared paths)
ride the wrong way in one-way streets (unless signs say that cyclists are permitted to do so)
ride across pedestrian crossings

Think ahead. Anticipate drivers' actions. Catch their eye.

Be visible. Ride well clear of the kerb, wear bright clothing, and always use lights after dark or in
poor day-time visibility.

Show drivers what you plan to do. Always look and signal before you start, stop or turn. Ride a straight line past parked cars rather than dodge between them.

Move over, when it's safe and convenient. Two-abreast is often OK, but try not to hold up other traffic.

Ride positively and decisively. It helps motorists to understand what you plan to do.

[b]Mutual respect and consideration make for safer and more enjoyable travel. Always
acknowledging a courtesy does make a difference.[/b]

Try and resist the urge to print it off, wrap it round a brick and hurl it through the nearside window of the first **** that cuts you up, eh.

education and enforcement for all road users, especially motor vehicles

This morning I've been cycling in regent's park, London. This is heavily used by many cyclists at the weekends.

On 3 occasions this morning, motorists (black cab and 2 private cars) have driven into the right hand side of the ASL bicycle box, long after the red light changed, and cyclists were in the bike box on the left side.

The taxi driver did not think he had done anything wrong, when challenged by the 20 or so cyclists queued up into the ASL.

Its shocking how many motorists are completely ignorant of the law, especially the ASL, and how poorly its enforced by the Police.

Apparently TFL are attempting to have this offence decriminalised so they can use the camera network to start applying automatic penalties. At the moment, it actually has to be witnessed by a Police officer, which means there is little effective enforcement.

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I'd go for the completely unrealistic but compulsory 1 day a year visit to a driving centre. Where you must - walk, cycle, car, 22ft white van, 3.5t and bus - it might let people understand the vunerability of non vehicle users, lack of mobility/acceleration/visibility of larger vehicles etc that I don't think many car drivers (or cyclists ) understand.

but I can't help but agree with Ton, nearly got into a fight with an audi driver at the lights, chapped(gently/politely) on his passenger window, he then went into aggressive mode at which point I said - blimey mate I only wanted to let you know your lhs brake light was out - he struggled then - obviously he couldn't apologise and say thank you but even he managed to understand it probably wasn't the best reason for wanting a fight.

TBH i think ther eis a general lack of respect n the roads irrespective of the mode of transport you are .

I am not sure if it is worse on the bike or if it is just that the actual risk of harm is greater so it feels worse. It easier to brush off a near miss when you knoe you were wrapped up in a two ton steel box than when you are on a bike.

We need a sea change of attitude so that all road users ride in accordance with the rules, employing common sense and displaying courtesy to all other users.

Failing that presumed liability ,separate spaces or ban cars in that order.

Motorists usually travel faster than cyclists and may have less time to take account of hazards.

If you don't have enough time to take account of the hazard you are going too fast. Drive to the conditions not the speed limit.

This is probably why the pdf got taken down.

[quote="davidtaylforth"]Well said Ton.

You've got to change society. Too many people who take themselves too seriously, too many people with small man syndrome, too many people with too much testosterone, too many trying to keep up with the Jones's, too many who are closed minded, too many that love "stuff & things", too many that are unhappy but can't see it/won't admit it, too many folk in a rush, too many who don't look out for each other, too many that never think, too many caught up in their own little world etc. etc. It's all related, and I guess we're all guilty of it at some point.

There needs to be a huge change; people need to be told (because unfortunately alot can't think for themselves) that happiness is not about the size of your car or the size of your TV or Hifi etc. People should be encouraged to do positive things with their time/money. This sounds like complete hippy bollocks, and it is, I'm cringing as I type it. But it's the truth!

Also, a ban on cars with engines bigger than 1.2 litres would be a good start. It'll never happen unfortunately.

All of that 😀 I don't think the small engine thing will be introduced (soon enough) but the rest of it is spot on.

Too much importance is placed on having 'stuff' as a measure of happiness and status- owning a white car/big telly/granite worktop/soft close bog seat (FFS!) and shopping for those things is marketed as a fun or glamorous thing to do using beautiful, happy people in ads instead of the humongous soul-destroying pain in the arse trawling round your local Evans Halshaw/out-of-town home furnishings shop with the rest of the rat racers [i]really[/i] is. F- all that sh*t, I'm off out on me bike that's bought and paid for, ta 😀

I honestly think that whilst cars and cycles share the same roads it'll never be safe. I used to commute via roads but ended up feeling shell-shocked at the end of the day from all the near misses and cars whizzing past me at 60+ on 40mph roads. I take my time and go off road. There's even bits I'd rather walk on pavements than ride on the roads.

Maybe I'd feel different if I didn't live in a busy city.

Without sounding like a tossr, I can see the problem being

A) there's not enough room on UK roads to safely pass giving due distance and space to the cyclist.

B) cyclists using main roads particularly with a 60mph limit can cause flow of traffic to stop start which is highly dangerous in itself game to play.

I.e. Having been travelling in a car behind a vehicle which broke hard from 70mph on the dual carriageway to 30mph in a matter of a few seconds where a cyclist thought it wise to use the dual carriageway. This caused those who were insured and using road the appropriately to swerve and be put in danger which may have been a day of carnage.

It can be said that road going cyclists on heavily used roads where fast flowing traffic is obviously going to be happening is a bad idea full stop

This of what I have said is coming from a non cager i.e. Non car driver who whilst respects commuters needs also finds myself swearing and wanting to beat the crap out of the "odd" one who does not abide with road safety and tbf, asking for trouble imo at times.

It's often good to see cyclists in and around cities and pedestranised parts of town etc, as to reduce volume of vehicles and to reduce emmisions.

Ironically enough, I too shall be wanting/needing to commute by cycle soon, just xc back route that unfortunately for the last few years has been taken over by the rat run craze who discovered it much quicker to do so.

Going back to the OP point, I would equally like to see a future for combined symbiotic respect and mutual love of driving/riding safely using the road network.

the humongous soul-destroying pain in the arse trawling round your local Evans Halshaw/out-of-town home furnishings shop with the rest of the rat racers really is. F- all that sh*t, I'm off out on me bike that's bought and paid for, ta

This is probably why the pdf got taken down.

I would've thought a quick adjustment would've been more effective than nothing at all. Maybe you're right; maybe they just thought "[i]Ah **** it, it's just some cyclist shit. Who gives a toss...[/i]" and binned it.

Omitting that realistic yet unsavoury point you highlighted I feel the rest is still viable info for all concerned.

4. More cyclists.
The Critical Mass idea is solid, but misguided.

I suspect it's not really about infrastructure, it's bigger than that. Perhaps it's more about culture.

No, it's not. Dutch drivers are just as bad as UK drivers but as a cyclist you don't have to interact with them very often. The conflict and danger is removed through physical separation.

If you look at Germany there is hardly any segregated use infrastructure, but drivers are just a bit more considerate and don't take the Michael.

In my view -
Mostly it's about infrastructure and a change in attitude to allocation of road space.
Outside town centres you convert pavement to bike track (with priority over side roads) and allow pedestrians (in the tiny numbers that actually do walk in rural locations).
In towns default 20mph limit, removal of rat runs and through traffic (if theres a bypass it should no longer be possible/convenient to drive through a town or village). Out of town reduction in limits - national limit reduced from 60 to 30 with higher limits indicated (rather than the reverse).

Culturally it's about a huge change in attitude to enforcement of driving laws:
- covert cameras to enforce limits should be widespread.
- Fines should be significantly increased (Swiss system good - fines based on a number of days income so people actually feel the fine), driving bans should be common not exceptional with no 'exceptional hardship' exemption.
- Retests and dangerous/careless/points on licence after any collision (even if no-one harmed).
- large increase in fines for driving without insurance. Failure to pay fine or exceptional speed/danger confiscate and destroy the car.

Every one thinks 'collisions' happen to other people, everyone thinks they're an excellent driver. Real fear of losing licence for regular poor driving would be a far more effective deterrent than any jail time after an at fault collision (as they're too rare on an individual basis). Jail time is rarely the answer for driving offences EXCEPT driving while banned.

All that would make the roads safer but its' still about the infra. It only needs 1 **** in a hundred to make riding on the road dangerous and unpleasant and even the above cultural change won't get rid of the 1%

A default 20mph urban speed limit. Any arterial road upgraded to 30mph must first have high quality physically separated bike infrastructure.

Close off "cut through" roads to private motor vehicles, so they have to drive around on main roads.

Remove ~3% of parking spaces each year.

Presumed liability.

Retest drivers every five years.

Renationalise the railways and bus companies, cut the prices. And increase bike spaces.

Culture change is what's needed. How you could go about that could be:
1. Make driving like a dick socially unacceptable - like we did with seatbelts and drink driving. No-one likes to be isolated by their peers
2. Better cycling infrastructure - not sure I want full separation so much as infrastructure which gives clear priority to the cyclists
3. Proper enforcement of existing law esp speed limits and overtaking at appropriate points
4. Cycling included in driving lessons and the driving test
5. Re-test every 2 years at driver's expense
6. Smaller cars, smaller engines - today's cars have more power than most people have the skill and emotional maturity to handle
7. More tax on car use - not on the car but on use - so people think about it before they go out each time and start to cycle more for shorter journeys
8. Self-driving cars
9. Psychological testing incl as part of the driving assessment - some people are just too angry, too emotional, too impatient to be trusted with a motor vehicle.
10. Make it impossible to use a mobile phone in a moving car. We managed fine until the mid-90's, I'm sure we can manage again. Who gives a toss about the passenger...
11. Non-compulsory but vastly increased participation in Bikeability - give riders confidence about their rights and to ride in a more assertive way and understand how to own the road and give clear, assertive communication to drivers - I suspect a lot of drivers would back off acting like bullies if they were stood up to more - like most bullying behaviour.
12. Give drivers more training on how to drive around cyclists - I suspect a lot of people have a little panic when they see a vulnerable and slow moving cyclist ahead - it's why they get angry - they're dead scared they'll hurt someone because they're not confident enough to pass properly. Some of the passes I see are so far off to the other side of the road, unnecessarily, I suspect the driver is so scared of hitting us that they massively overcompensate.

IME, in London and around Kent, more and more drivers are staying back or overtaking properly - we had v little problems on our club run this morning. This has been getting better last year and the year before. I think sheer numbers of cyclists is helping - drivers are getting used to the change and/or they know someone who's just started riding who points out to them how it feels on a bike...

5. Re-test every 2 years at driver's expense

I'm not sure this is actually necessary. Sufficient to be after offence, collision and age related. Every 2 years after 65, 70 maybe?

Make it impossible to use a mobile phone in a moving car.

Immediate ban. It's not something you can do accidentally.

11. Non-compulsory but vastly increased participation in Bikeability - give riders confidence about their rights and to ride in a more assertive way and understand how to own the road and give clear, assertive communication to drivers - I suspect a lot of drivers would back off acting like bullies if they were stood up to more - like most bullying behaviour.

Not my experience. The problem is the ones who don't have a ton of car at their disposal.
Also see NearMissProject - [url= http://rachelaldred.org/research/feeling-the-pinch/ ]http://rachelaldred.org/research/feeling-the-pinch/[/url]
[i]"For the cyclist, it is a no-win situation. Some explicitly referred to what they perceived as a choice between a high risk of an unsafe pass, if near the kerb, and a lower risk of (even more frightening) deliberate aggression, if in primary position."[/i]

Being aggressive to cyclists needs to be the new drink driving. You don't see people going on Twitter to boast about how many drinks they had before driving, so why is it acceptable to abuse cyclists?

so why is it acceptable to abuse cyclists?

[url= http://road.cc/content/news/3069-what%E2%80%99s-smug-and-deserves-be-decapitated%E2%80%9D-matthew-parris-gets-most-press-complaints ]Matthew Parris advocating decapitation[/url]

This was an absolute shocker. Not least because no charges were brought, he kept his job and received no public approbation and the story receives no attention even now... and as far as I know he's still regarded as a legitimate journalist.

If he'd said the same about black people, women, jews etc the reaction would have been quite different.

Not my experience. The problem is the ones who don't have a ton of car at their disposal.
Also see NearMissProject - http://rachelaldred.org/research/feeling-the-pinch/
"For the cyclist, it is a no-win situation. Some explicitly referred to what they perceived as a choice between a high risk of an unsafe pass, if near the kerb, and a lower risk of (even more frightening) deliberate aggression, if in primary position."

I 100% agree with your fundamental point Simon - I missed out presumed liability in my list! But as a measure amongst many I think a lot of cyclists - especially the less experienced ones would be more confident and more assertive in the face of aggression if they knew their rights and they knew how to manage traffic. This over time would help make it clear to the more bullying type of driver, or the simply ignorant, that cyclists have as much right of way, and as much power as they do...

I also struggle with the 'damned if I do, damned if I don't' aspect of primary - not least the amount of grief I get from my club secretary for doing it!

I've experimented with different techniques and over time I've found a good solid look over my shoulder (or several) as I approach the narrowing which requires primary, an assertive signal to show I'm pulling out, then pulling back in when appropriate and a wave to say thank you when there's space for the car to pass, tends to lead to drivers holding back.

Doesn't work all the time I grant you, but being more assertive and deliberate does help remind drivers that you have as much authority as they do...

John Franklin has some interesting points to make in a chapter called 'sharing the roads' e.g. "curiously the biggest mistake made by many cyclists is that they are too submissive when sharing the roads, somehow feeling that they must always allow priority to motor vehicles. It is precisely this attitude that causes many of their difficulties in traffic"

Training obviously can go a very long way in educating cyclists away from this attitude

Interesting and useful stuff - thanks OP. As a number have said, I also firmly believe that the need for attitudinal and cultural change is core to the whole thing.

In addition to numerous 'idiot passes' I've experienced over the years, where drivers seem to think they've made an intelligent decision by putting themselves on the wrong side of the road around a bend, when if there wasn't another human being on a bicycle inside them, they'd no more have done that than walked to the moon; it's this ingrained belief that some drivers feel they have a god-given right to be first and fastest on the road that I find so upsetting and confusing.

I have in recent years adopted a much more positive approach to riding on the road - 'rewarding' good overtakes with a thank-you wave (I'd say it's noticeable that when I do this to the first car in a line, the following vehicles seem to give decent room too) rather than losing the plot so much with bad drivers. Equally, taking the 'prime' position seems to have reduced the number of crazy overtaking moves as there's less room for them to push past, but the 'class system' that seems to exist with the bicycle at the very bottom seems to be the root of the issue.

Whether it's because bad cyclists have caused this between drivers and cyclists, or simply as many above have said, that time / speed / might matters in some drivers' little minds, I don't know, but an incident yesterday almost prompted me to start a similar thread.

Heading to the hills on my mountain bike, I was riding along a quiet residential street with cars parked down both sides and became aware of a van behind me. It started revving, then inching in to see if it could push past. I put my hand out and down to signal it to move back, but this seemed to exacerbate things so I turned round and asked him - now almost alongside - what he was doing and that there was no room to pass. He then proceeded to force past, me taking avoiding action to stop him clipping my bars.

I caught him at the junction about 100 yards further on and pulled onto the pavement to question his judgement. Amongst the tirade I received back was the phrase "I don't have time to wait behind you holding me up". This was on a Saturday morning. He wasn't driving an ambulance and didn't appear to have his pants on fire.

I just wonder, if the same guy (driving his company van, so clearly with nothing to hide) would push past old folk at the post office - because they were holding him up? Would he elbow kids out of the way to get to the chocolate bars in Tesco, because he didn't have time to wait? Would he shove past mums with pushchairs in town, because his needs to be somewhere were far greater than theirs? Horses? Tractors? Funeral processions?

It baffles me - truly. It upsets me that people behave like this to other people and consider them to be of such little worth that they cease to matter. I wonder if he'd have started to give a shit if he'd knocked me off, or broken my leg, or killed me?

I don't know at what point in the whole process people will realise they're interacting with other people who have exactly the same right to survive as they do - and behave accordingly.

Maybe I'd feel different if I didn't live in a busy city.

I tend to find bussy small towns and edge of towns the worst as there is not enough traffic to slow the cars down but its busy enough that people have difficulty overtaking.

People are right that it is cultural but culture is partially driven by the environment in which people live. I don't thing town planning has been very good in the past few decades, resulting in pro car traffic planning and very much sprawling and overly zoned placements of housing vs facilities / jobs resulting in large re distance and more isolated hosing.

Having the contact details of all company vehicles wether car or van on the passenger side door would help to enforce speed limits and safer driving, we couild then see which companies take road user safety as a must , not just allow idiots to drive un named company vehicles wuith gusto, because they have no way of being identified as company vehicle drivers.

All PCV,s have to have the owners details on the outside pannel to the rear of the front side door by law, so in the case of a claim the passenger or other road user knows who to contact.

I missed out presumed liability in my list!

Presumed liability is a red herring. Yes, it should be in place but it's only effect as I understand it is to make insurance companies behave - they have to prove the cyclist was at fault to avoid paying compensation in the effect of an injury. It makes no difference to driver behaviour - no-one thinks they're a bad driver, no-one thinks they're going to hit a cyclist, not related to police charges

Doesn't work all the time I grant you, but being more assertive and deliberate does help remind drivers that you have as much authority as they do...

My version of this is - it doesn't make a difference very often. It's the illusion of difference for all those drivers who'd have been safe anyway. For a small minority it stops them being stupid. For a small minority it makes them angry, aggressive, abusive.

John Franklin has some interesting points to make in a chapter called 'sharing the roads' e.g. "curiously the biggest mistake made by many cyclists is that they are too submissive when sharing the roads, somehow feeling that they must always allow priority to motor vehicles. It is precisely this attitude that causes many of their difficulties in traffic"

Training obviously can go a very long way in educating cyclists away from this attitude

Works for young, fit males. Not everyone is bold and assertive off the bike = you're not going to change their fundamental character once they're on it. Frankly, dealing with motor vehicles when you're on a bike is terrifying once you start thinking about it. Another cyclist can hit me, or a pedestrian, and I know I'll basically be OK. Even a serious accident on an mtb I might break a bone or two but not much more. A car, van or bus and I'll be seriously injured. That's real and no amount of training can change that fundamental fact. I'm increasingly scared of traffic as I think I'm more aware of the consequences as I get older.

John Franklin basically comes down to 'put yourself in the way of the cars and pray they're not too dangerous or distracted to care about you'

You hear the claim sometimes that highlighting cycle deaths will frighten people off cycling so pro-cycle organisations shouldn't do it. That's nonsense - motor vehicles ARE dangerous. It's the 'cage of lions' metphor - no amount of telling me they're pussycats and unlikely to bite me is going to change the fact that they're ****ING LIONS!

Having the contact details of all company vehicles wether car or van on the passenger side door would help to enforce speed limits and safer driving,

Doesn't seem to work for those that do at the moment. Skip trucks, Post office vans, scaffolding lorries. All those construction vehicles that kill a lot of cyclists. All branded up.

Hows my driving?