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Not quite the grumpy old man question it first appears (despite what I am about to say!). And despite being a staunch remainer and working in a business being put perilously into the red by recent currency woes, please the answer isn’t just ‘thanks Brexit’ before we start!
Just looking at the new Lyrik review on the front page. £1,000 for a set of forks is a lot, and I know that isn’t even the most you can pay.
So, R&D and marketing aside, why have forks shot up in value so much? Once tooling costs are recovered the basic materials and manufacturing at scale aren’t so huge, and the other overheads are (inflation aside) broadly the same as ever (a manufacturer, a distributor, a retailer).
Back ‘in the day’ (and here’s where I risk sounding like a grumpy old man!), a Rock Shox RS1 was a couple of hundred £s. When Fox released their first Float and Vanilla the going rate jumped to £400ish.
But what happened to make a decent fork so expensive? Genuine question rather than an invite for a rant.
In round numbers:
£1,000 less vat = £830
less retailer margin (40-50% at a guess?) = £580
less distributor margin (30% at a guess?) =£450
Leaving the manufacturer £450 to play with even allowing for everybody making a living. Manufacturing costs can’t be that high even at scale surely? Not working in the bike business I might have my numbers totally wrong so feel free to correct me!
Margins aside, when compared to ‘tech’ items, the R&D doesn’t even compare, but despite being guilty of spending far too much on my bikes, £1,000+ forks are starting to take the biscuit. Even compared to other bike parts (group sets being a good example of complex parts at a seemingly lower cost), forks are relatively expensive.
So, when did forks get so expensive, and how do they justify the price?
That's rrp.
Check the rrp of all other forks, shocks, droppers etc....
I get that, but unlike many other products forks do seem to stick close to the RRP. That’s another element of the question I guess. Having been in and around retailer for most of my career I am very sceptical about ‘savings’ and RRPs but it is rare (other than discounts on last year’s models) to see much discount on forks.
First up (Brexit will play a part in prices....)
Next they have a RS have a 2 level set up with very decent forks in their 2nd Tier Yari/Rev vs Lyrik/Pike
What that has let them do is offer a premium product and then offer the same thing 2 years later with some heavier bits as another fork Fox are running 3 levels now I think.
I'm sure I paid about £500 for these back in 05
http://www.mtbr.com/product/older-categories-bikes/2005-front-shocks/marzocchi/all-mountain-i.html
So inflation, VAT rises and weak pound add a bit to it (Inflation calculator has them at £710 now)
A solo Yari is between 450 and 600 now.
Enduro.
Cycling became aspirational.
Awful, isn't it?
Too many who appear to judge themselves and others by purchases and labels rather than actions and intent.
I much preferred it when it was mostly the choice of the impoverished eccentric.
Well let’s sort out the costings shops are actually between 25/30% margin my be abit more of there selling high volume from the same supplier, probably same again for the supplier and then my be more for fox,rockshox etc actual manufacturing cost is probably around £80/120 per unit.
But over all I do agree with you they are cost prohibitive these days I’ve actually been trying other brands here and Here since fox and rockshox shot up in price.
Xfusion are pretty good for the cash and Ive now got the new MrP ribbons very impressed but they are the coil option so there gonna feel different to air which they do.
But then this could open a whole can of worms up.
We all remember when santcruz alloy frames where about £1100 and that was only around 8/9 years ago! now there over 3k for a plastic ones and I personally can’t see the justification in those prices!
We all remember when santcruz alloy frames where about £1100 and that was only around 8/9 years ago! now there over 3k for a plastic ones and I personally can’t see the justification in those prices!
Now I was looking at those back then....
The single pivots were about that price back then (cheaper than the equivalent Orange 5)
I think the VPP ones were always more, the Alloy Bronson is now £1900 so factor in inflation to that price....
What that does tell me is that Alloy frames are going up with inflation and currency shifts. You can probably compare a RS Yari to that which is pitching in about the same as the older tech forks.
What has come in is a higher performance, race/top end/elite level that is open to buy for everyone, you obviously don't have to buy it and can buy what will be a very good alu frame, with a quality fork for a resonable price.
A soft rabbit we sell that was £9.99 12 years ago is now £17.99.
I really can't see why it has gone up that much, I just think they are putting prices up just because they can.
Because they can is probably the answer.
The original trio of usable early 90's forks were between £299 and £349 from memory (RS Mag 20, Pace RC35, Manitou 1). Fast forward to 2006ish and my Pace RC40's cost about £399, as did the main competition.
It seemed to go bonkers after that when Fox became the must have fork and the competition fell away. They put prices up year on year. That was halted when SRAM got hold of RS, produced some decent/class leading forks and then let the market get flooded with heavily discounted stock. Once they became established though they followed Fox lead and we are where we are.
That's how I see it anyway.
I tend to favour the smaller companies when it comes to suspension . I have just killed a set of MRP stage forks they j had for 2 years. I just bough a set of Manitou Mattoc pro's for £265 from CRC. I didn't buy them because they were cheap initially but I was reading a 39 page forum page on MTBR and the universal thinking was that they are bloody awesome. So a no brainer really.
I'm not averse to throwing money at some things but I do have a soft spot for small underdog companies pushing good products.
I think this sums up the cycling manufacturing and cost to consumer market.
Unlike other bicycle component manufacturers, Suntour did not charge what the market would bear, but instead charged a price that covered costs of production plus a small profit markup. As a result, a Suntour derailleur costing $10 competed against similar level products from Campagnolo ($40) and Shimano ($20). As Suntour derailleurs and shifters could be specified on many more low- and mid-priced bicycles, the company gained a reputation with the general public as a producer of only low-end equipment. This reputation would eventually hurt sales when Suntour introduced a complete high-end component group,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SunTour
I think some of the process wire for older girls above are a little off to be honest.
My Pace rc37s cost me £600 new, Z1s we're about 400, Boxxers were around a grand, Judy Sls were 400+
This is all late 90s. Adding in inflation that's really not much of an increase for modern equivalents, especially when you consider how shit they mostly were.
. Fast forward to 2006ish and my Pace RC40’s cost about £399, as did the main competition.
Once they became established though they followed Fox lead and we are where we are.
Where we are is a place with some really good forks in that inflation adjusted 4-500 market that Fox & RS are happy to produce - Fox taking on Marz means they have another avenue for their products
For 80-90% of riders the new range of mid level forks would be perfect and do the job asked of them, if you look at the top end as the race/xtr type product just & ignore them stuff looks very resonable again.
Also knowing how many of the RC40's that died and had to go back until they refunded them anything modern is a worthy successor.
Could be because mid range forks got so good and quite pricey as a result they have to charge more for the high end stuff to differentiate it even though the performance gain over the mid range ones might not be that obvious.
I was a Santa Cruz fan boy so your right single pivot was around £1000
the the link actuated single pivot nickle ext was around £1450 and the. The bop where about £1660 give or take options so in real terms the new alloy ones are pretty fair considering 8/9 years etc.
But then I’m now on a steel production privee Shan no5 £1500 or so with a top flight fox shox! Makes you wonder what is happening over all as privee are not a big company so can’t be making the volume last that the big players are!
It seems to be one of those things that ebbs and flows, I mean the first thing is that RS is always heavily discounted, even now those £1k forks are ‘only’ £880 on CRC, I’d bet they’re significantly cheaper in a few months of if you’re buying them by the hundred to put on new bikes.
Inflation and currency plays a big part. I remember buying a set of 888 WC Ti forks for £750 in 2008, RRP was £1000 or so, 6 months later when the £ took a shit they were £1100, RRP had lept to £1400, the following year they were £650 with an RRP of £800
But in this case it’s lore likely to be RSs usual sales MO, a high RRP and big discounts to give a perception of a bargain, they’ll be for sale in the £600 range by Xmas would be my guess.
Cycling became aspirational
Oh do behave, mountain biking has always been aspirational , other forms : less so.
Don't forget that a modern fork is night and day compared to one from a few years back - way better airspring and damping, which carries cost, often more complex manufacturing processes (see dimple machining for one tiny example), better materials etc etc.
And of course the big players have moved on to become proper businesses now rather than just monetised enthusiast lifestyle businesses, so the correct price and profitability controls are in place, which is a good thing as it ensures long term viability and profitability of the companies.
Try a new Lyrik or 36 compared to something from even 5 years ago and you'll see just how much better it is. And of course there's also the Yari etc which offer near top tier performance but at "trickle down" pricing.
Retailer margin 40-50% !!!
No where near that much, worked in the industry for 15 years
But agree 1k for a single crown fork is silly......
In a market for luxury goods, price is not determined by cost of production, it's largely based on what the market will stand
Sorry to hijack , batman tell me about the coil MRP please .. Initaly said yes to them due to mtbr feedback and being coil curious again .. No stock till early September so testing the new DT fork .
Will be coming from Deville Airs .. how different are you finding them ? .. loved my old Coil Lyriks
My RC40's were ace. All the direct competition at the time hit a similar price point for their go to fork and had done for years. Yes, you could buy expensive down hill or fancy pants versions but the standard premium options hovered around £300/400 for 15+ years. In the last 10 years prices for the standard premium option have shot up.
By standard premium I'm talking about the type of fork the majority of people would want on their mass appeal bike so 92 RC35's, 95 RS Judy, 98 Z1's, 05 Fox Float, 10 RS Revs, 15 RS Pike etc.
I wonder if a big part of it is that more people buy an off the shelf bike now, with an OEM fork already installed. The £lots sticker price for the halo product super fork in a retail box is almost then a way of making the OEM fork seem worth more when a consumer is doing the mental maths in the shop/spec'ing something up on the internet. This bike comes with a RS Pike XYZ retail RRP = x so rest of bike cost is cost - x. We all know the OEM spec stuff (even with the same spec level) tends to be corner cut in some way, but its a mind trick innit.
The death of standards though, you buy a complete bike not a pile of parts to bolt together, so the forks for sale in a shop are an "upgrade" for most, not an actual part.
Sorry if this is a little rambling. Am full of painkillers.
not just forks but everything else. You can't blame brexit as the cost in the states has gone up too. The rrp of forks has always been high I think we are just seeing less discount from it than normal. I paid 500 for pikes 3 years ago but unless you get them in a sale at CRC I'd have to pay 150 more. That being said my mattocs were only £300
A soft rabbit we sell that was £9.99 12 years ago is now £17.99
Cost of batteries gone up?
What's a soft rabbit?
Annoyingly the public are easily parted from their cash, so for many idiots, they'll pay that and not question it...manufacturers are quite happy with these prices as they make more (given popularity of the sport there are more people in the target market so more sell). Not enough people not buying at those prices.
Performance has improved but not at the amount the prices justify.
they’ll pay that and not question it
You can question it as much as you like, you still have to pay it if you want to buy them. Companies are run by profiteering capitalists who aim to squeeze as much out of the customer as they can get away with. Doesn't happen in Venezuela or North Korea, AKA The Workers' Paradise.
Doesn’t happen in Venezuela or North Korea, AKA The Workers’ Paradise.
How much are forks/mtbs in North Korea?
What’s a soft rabbit?
A disappointment?
A soft rabbit we sell that was £9.99 12 years ago is now £17.99.
Maybe due to r&d that have turned soft rabbits into hard ones that can now vibrate might be a major factor in that.
I believe that it was Fox that set the standard for pricing bitd when they started out when tech was increasing time and time again.
I don’t however believe that RS demand a grand for a mass produced fork unless they’re factoring in the associated warranty costs.
If the big players were raking it in with mega margins and making a reliable, well performing fork with good servicing and spares support was so easy then we'd be swimming in great budget fork brands, capitalism would find a way.
That we're not suggests that things may not be as easy and profitable as they appear from the outside.
capitalism would find a way.
To do what? Maximise profits?
That we’re not suggests that things may not be as easy and profitable as they appear from the outside.
Or that the consumer is having their pants pulled down?
Or that the consumer is having their pants pulled down?
Yep that is why they only produce top of the line forks and offer no choice at all. They don't do a version that is a little heavier for the same money inflation corrected as people said was about right 10-15 years ago. They certainly don't make way more reliable forks these days...
Happy here trousers and pants intact and up.
All the money goes into marketing. SR Suntour make some fantastic forks at prices well below the likes of Fox, but I don't hear much bout them and see even fewer.
And the value of the £ hasn't helped. I paid about £320 for new 29" Pikes from Germany and replaced them with the then newly revised MRP Stage for £600 which seemed like an eye-watering amount of money at the time. Don't see me replacing them any time soon.
I’d guess that dealer margins are under 20% on accessories and as low as 5% on bikes based on time I spent working in sales in another niche hobby. The importer makes the big money, in our case it was close to 40%.
The importer makes the big money, in our case it was close to 40%.
Or has the chance to make that, before a discount, before shipping out the over ordered bikes you have been holding all year, after paying up front for the kit and running the demo's while dealing with any issues 😉 Then you have the sales reps doing their thing. Margin is not profit.
I've had some huge margin sales on stuff but the cost of selling it and the volume soon make that a much smaller number
Almost all of my bike is made up of second hands parts including the carbon frame.
The Pikes I have are also second-hand. I just couldn't afford new forks at the time i built the bike or now to be honest.
The Classifieds on here (and Pink Bike to a degree) are a God send to be honest.
Recently bought some very nice fox 34s for 240 quid and last year a set of Yaris for about 325 or 350?
Dunno what you're on about tbh. Who's paying RRP?
Great comments thanks all. From what you have said, it seems to boil down to:
1) mid priced forks are pretty good and high end halo products almost have to justify a significant price hike to sell more mid priced forks sitting under that halo
2) market forces (what is the consumer willing to pay?) rather than the Suntour commercial forces approach (cost of manufacture plus margins) seems to dominate.
The second point probably explains my original question so thanks MSP. I just couldn’t work out using the Suntour approach how to get to £1,000.
As I thought, things did drift a little into the ‘we’re all being ripped off’ territory for a while, but that wasn’t my point.
I do also think that given how good bike gear is these days and how small the increments of progress are becoming people are holding onto kit for longer because there is less performance justification to change. This means (in addition to economic forces and cycling no longer being the new golf) that sales are slowing and this inevitably leads to increased prices.
As an aside I bought a pair of the ‘German’ OEM Fox Rhythm forks earlier this year for a winter hardtail build and for less than £200 they outshine my 2 year old F34 Factory Kashima coated forks that would fit into the £800+ category today. So yes as a few people have pointed out you don’t need to spend big to get amazing performance these days (which makes justifying £1,000 even harder).
Haven’t fork prices been in this range for at least a decade? I seem to remember the early fox air forks being ~£500 around 2001?
RRP on latest, top end stuff, obviously.
Agree with a lot of what's said in here.
But, I've done 10000 miles on a pair of fox forks and the same on a rear can.
Two services on the forks and nothing on the shock.
Expensive but the least hassle I've had on a part with plenty of mileage.
I remember spending around 500 (12 years ago) on Pace forks and they never worked in the wet.
That was painful.
1) mid priced forks are pretty good and high end halo products almost have to justify a significant price hike to sell more mid priced forks sitting under that halo
Or that is the latest tech, it's more complicated and been run in short numbers. It's probably using more premium materials in some cases for lowers etc.
There is a demand for the top end race products in everyday life, if you want it then it will be a premium in the end and you should probably invest in a lot of oil and seals to keep it nice 😉
When you see the real top guys with their suspension (at a race) it's nearly set and then it goes off to Fox/RS magic truck for a final setup/tune, if your spending that much on a fork you should probably invest in the mechanic too 😉
It hi k one of the benefits of buying a top end fork or shock is a degree of ‘future proofing’. I most often buy higher-end stuff but hold onto it for a long time, because the performance is still comparable with newer stuff.
For example, I have a pair of Bos Deville TRC 160mm forks, over 5 years old. In that time we have had boost and 27.5 become standard - but those are the only things that date the fork. It’s still incredibly controlled and great feeling. Having tried more modern Pikes, Lyrics etc - none felt any better and actually didn’t feel even as good.
I think this sums up the cycling manufacturing and cost to consumer market.
Unlike other bicycle component manufacturers, Suntour did not charge what the market would bear, but instead charged a price that covered costs of production plus a small profit markup. As a result, a Suntour derailleur costing $10 competed against similar level products from Campagnolo ($40) and Shimano ($20). As Suntour derailleurs and shifters could be specified on many more low- and mid-priced bicycles, the company gained a reputation with the general public as a producer of only low-end equipment. This reputation would eventually hurt sales when Suntour introduced a complete high-end component group,
In some ways, but Suntour, like many other 'cheap' makers are just fashion hoppers to some extent, quite happy to let Campag/Shimano/SRAM etc. spend the cash to research and develop new products, sponsor riders, advertising and get the products onto peoples wishlists and then do their own copy for cheaper because they don't have to include that kind of money on their budgets.
Not saying theres not a Campagnolo et al premium on products of course
Oh and I'd write that on my website if I was selling a cheaper product 😉
I used to buy Rebas for £200-300 on my short travel bikes and Revelations for £300-400 on my trail bikes. These days I buy Rebas for £200-300 on my short travel bikes* and Pikes for £300-400 on my trail bikes.
If anything I'm amazed it's done as well as it has, the price of full bikes and frames has rocketed far more.
*For example, my most recent was bought on June 27th, this year. £219 for 2017 Reba RL Solo 29, 120mm travel, tapered. Probably less than I paid for forks 15 years ago.
They charge that much because someone will pay it. I'm not saying they are inflating the cost artificially necessarily, but they now produce things that are expensive to manufacture, and in the past they wouldn't have bothered because they'd have decided no-one would pay. But now they will.
But the super rich market segment now exists as well as the normal and budget segments, so they may choose to make a bit more profit on the super high end stuff because they can, and use that to subsidise the lower end stuff where cost is more of an issue.
It's good news for us - the rich people pay for the R&D that eventually trickles down to us. So we get better forks, the fork companies make more money to reinvest, and the rich people get some shiny fabulousness to show off to their mates. Win/win/win.
I remember back in the day going on CRC and sorting by price on suspension forks. The most expensive ones were the Foes Curnutt DH forks at over a grand. It seemed like an enormous amount of money, but they were low volume, specialist bits of kit.
That was probably 15 years ago, so some inflation has happened, but a high end 'normal' fork was maybe £400 back then. Current prices do seem to be taking the piss a bit.
In some ways, but Suntour, like many other ‘cheap’ makers are just fashion hoppers to some extent, quite happy to let Campag/Shimano/SRAM etc. spend the cash to research and develop new products, sponsor riders, advertising and get the products onto peoples wishlists and then do their own copy for cheaper because they don’t have to include that kind of money on their budgets.
Except that was an historic example of how the marketing of cycling products changed when those companies were very much viewed as being equal, but by merely charging higher prices shimano and campag became viewed as premium. VW would be another example, charge a higher price, market doors that go klunk, and people believe that they are higher quality when they are at best merely equal to their main cheaper competitors.
Fwiw I know I had a pair of RS mag 21s bought for my 18th birthday in 1993. They were 320 quid. On the bank of England's inflation adjuster, that equals £619.71.
Equivalent is probably something like a SID RL, rrp is £564.
48mm - 100mm
3lb 4oz - 3lb 7oz
Jumpers for goalposts?
Recently bought some very nice fox 34s for 240 quid and last year a set of Yaris for about 325 or 350?
Dunno what you’re on about tbh. Who’s paying RRP?
Yes. Correct.
FOX moved with it's forks and shocks into the "1.5 k mountain bike market". Since maybe 2 years?
Crazy sales from CRC or bike-components.de for those FOX forks...
Bought three fantastic FOX forks over the last 1 1/2 years. Same as Del-bloke: none of the forks was more than 300 quid. (RRP in the range of 0.7 ... 0.9 k ...)
Wait for the winter sales!
My guess: manufacturing costs of a 0.9 k fork is around 100 quid? But that's fine with me - as long as bike-components sells those for 199 Euros again (like winter 2017/18)...
And: those forks are sooo good now. 2017 fork technology is great!!!
I think the prices went nuts when Fox bought out the original 36 which was way more expensive than anything else on the market at the time. They were pretty good - 150mm travel, light and adjustable. They very quickly became the fork to have. The Pikes of that era were dirt cheap.
There are good alternatives though - my Mattoc's are bloody good and were so cheap from CRC plus the updates such as IRT are backwards compatible.
My guess: manufacturing costs of a 0.9 k fork is around 100 quid?
Guess based on what?
Try a new Lyrik or 36 compared to something from even 5 years ago and you’ll see just how much better it is.
I have some relatively new Pikes, and some forks that are longer travel than them but way lower in the pecking order from 2012.
The Pikes do do some good stuff, but I genuinely believe 80%+ of people with this sort of opinion just never service their forks and thus the new ones seem far better by virtue of working. They are far more reliable than my first pair of Rockshox (purchased in 1998, lasted a less than a year despite being serviced twice), but I think the reliability's been sorted since around 2000 (There's a set of still functioning year 2000 SIDs with some slightly bodged internals on my ex's bike).
The pricing isn't a reflection of the costs (whatever the source of those costs is - R&D, marketing, manufacture, distribution). It's a reflection of how the manufacturer wants their brand to be seen in the market. This includes to some extent limiting any oversupply so that the internet isn't flooded with low priced stock.
If you think RS are bad, take a look at the price rise of BOS...
I get that, but unlike many other products forks do seem to stick close to the RRP. That’s another element of the question I guess. Having been in and around retailer for most of my career I am very sceptical about ‘savings’ and RRPs but it is rare (other than discounts on last year’s models) to see much discount on forks.
There are bargains to be had on everything if you're lucky and don't insist on having the top of the range/best reviewed fork (which will obviously have sold out).
In the last year or so I know people who've picked up various high end forks for silly low money - there was a good batch of Marzochi last year. One of the German sites was selling end of line Fox at less than half price. There were some bargains on Rock Shox that came up on here not long ago.
X-Fusion seem to be putting out forks that tick all the boxes for a lot less money than the market leaders.
https://singletrackmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/review-x-fusion-mcqueen-roughcut-hlr-fork/
£460 from Freeborn at the moment.
The Pikes of that era were dirt cheap.
IIRC, the original Pikes were basically beefed up Rebas. From what I remember, RockShox weren't in great financial shape when they got taken over by SRAM. They had quality control problems, hence the shift of production to Asia. Their XC and trail forks had 28 mm stanchions, the Sid had all the stiffness of soggy pasta. The Duke and Psylo were not as noodly, but still sucked in comparison to Marzocchis. The Reba changed all that overnight, but it still took a few years to get their reputation back, so they were often sold at a discount. I'm still running some old Rebas and Revelations from back then that I picked up pretty cheap. Now they seem to be back to being a premium brand, so the good stuff doesn't get discounted like in the old days.
Now they seem to be back to being a premium brand, so the good stuff doesn’t get discounted like in the old days.
Sounds right.
But their "low end" forks aren't great and too expensive - like the Sektor. RRP for the Sektor forks is silly high.
Enough competition around so - for example for Enduro/Downhill forks. "Normal" sales price for a model year 2018 Durolux , 180 mm is around 0.5 k?
That's not too much.
180mm Yari for under £500, plenty of really good forks out there
2018 Durolux , 180 mm is around 0.5 k?
How much does that cost to manufacture? 0.075k?
I never pay near RRP anyway but total cost of a fork or shock includes service.
If you're paying £100+ for a full service then psychologically you feel better than paying it on a £1000 fork than a £500 one...
Also the parts retail are pretty expensive... foam rings and spacers are ludicrous... as are smaller quantities of oil.
I guess the same logic applies... do I want to spend £XX on new foam rings or seals for a £500 fork or a £1000 fork?
Not specifically suspension but you can get the Reverb for £200 but something like £70 for a service plus new parts... and a new hose or connectathingy etc. or cost of a bleed kit etc.
Another point is that there was a boom and bust 10 years ago. Demand (for everything, not just bikes) plummeted in the recession, so manufacturers had to slash prices to keep factories working and pay the bills. Now we have had a decade or so of growth, demand has picked up and everything involved in manufacturing will be more expensive. A lot of stuff will be subcontracted, and those subcontractors will have lots of other potential customers so they can jack up prices, plus skilled workers will be in demand so wages will rise. Even the low-end stuff will be much more expensive to make because it's still competing for factory time and skilled workers.
Sterling weakness is a factor. Why would they cut their margins ?
Market forces is what dictates pricing not production costs.
No one is being ripped off unless of course you pay £1,000 for something advertised at £500, not sure that happens.
I love it when the collectivists come out of the woodwork.
I paid £280 for a brand new 160 Yari last year. Amazing value. I remember having to import a Judy SL from the US for similar money as European price was £450...23 years ago.
Forks are really cheap and in real terms for what you get. Oh and by and large they are reliable. Which they didn't use to be.
Market forces is what dictates pricing not production costs.
Supply and demand. With low-end stuff there will be other products competing for production capacity. Sub-contractors will take whatever contracts are most profitable, so production costs will rise when economies are booming. Demand for bikes will also rise, so even low-end forks will be more expensive.
My guess: manufacturing costs of a 0.9 k fork is around 100 quid?
Guess based on what?
Rough Guess: weight is 2 kg
When you take such a fork apart there is really no "fancy stuff in" and it's all manufactured and assembled in Asia.
Purchasing of the raw material will be around £ 2 .. 5 for every kg
Top notch machining and plating / coating / painting: max £ 40 for each kg?
Ends up a bit below 100 quid.
O.k. those are the manufacturing costs. I guess those companies face very "high warranty costs" as well. Those will add of course. R&D and sales costs will add - plus the "margin" the company likes to make...
Actually there is fancy stuff. The tolerances of the valving / sealing is surprisingly good and not cheap to achieve consistently. The margins are pretty crucial to pay the staff and give then a half decent working environment too. And loads of other obvious overheads...
Top notch machining and plating / coating / painting: max £ 40 for each kg?
Didn't you come out with this in another thread?
Yes that way of looking at the cost of goods works when you're trying to compare the economies of china and Europe to see which is producing high value goods, it's a rubbish metric for looking at an individual product and trying to back calculate it though. After all the welded lowers on a BSO in Halfords are obviously cheaper than the cast and machined magnesium ones on RS forks despite being considerably heavier. There's no way you can say a product weighs X and therefore costs ax=y.
The tolerances of the valving / sealing is surprisingly good and not cheap to achieve consistently
I've worked for a diesel injector manufacturer. The tolerances were much, much closer (sub micron tolerances achieved through match ground components in the valving - which you just won't see or need in a suspension fork). It has to be quite well made, there are coatings and stuff and seals which are far better than they once were, but it's not super-precise engineering. And when you pull them apart, you can see there's nothing that complicated.
Top notch machining and plating / coating / painting: max £ 40 for each kg?
From where?
And when you pull them apart, you can see there’s nothing that complicated.
So what would you cost manufacturing at?
I’ve worked for a diesel injector manufacturer. The tolerances were much, much closer (sub micron tolerances achieved through match ground components in the valving – which you just won’t see or need in a suspension fork). It has to be quite well made, there are coatings and stuff and seals which are far better than they once were, but it’s not super-precise engineering. And when you pull them apart, you can see there’s nothing that complicated.
Yes.
£ 40 for each kg - when asking for "more than 500...1000 pieces is the highest you will ever get in Asian high quality machining shops.
There’s no way you can say a product weighs X and therefore costs ax=y.
Wrong. If you know the type of product (lets say high pressure diesel injectors / super high pressure hydraulics, see example from philjunior-bloke) - means you roughly know the materials used, the coatings and the tolerances, rough number produced - this math is can be done and is correct. All bigger purchasing departments (mechanical stuff) need to do these calculation.
In civil construction works it's similar. Type of building, soil conditions and "volume" of the building planned.
But correct - manufacturing costs are only a small part of the "price". Price and manufacturing costs are not directly related.
Warranty costs, R&D costs and marketing costs (the "brand name") / costs of sales for a product - like a mountain bike fork- will be higher than the manufacturing costs.
That's normal.
So what would you cost manufacturing at?
I didn't bother speculating, I've never been involved in producing MTB parts, or mass production in the far east for that matter.
But in any case, there are plenty of legitimate things that the money goes on, and then the price is set to determine the product's place in the marketplace (for premium forks at least). It's the final part that's the main bit here. It probably makes a bit of sense to sell new bits in smaller volumes anyway, to minimise any widespread warranty issues if a new part proves not to last that long in the real world/when mass produced, and having a premium/second tier/budget pricing structure fits this well (though I would be surprised if this is the thinking behind the price structure).
Wrong. If you know the type of product (lets say high pressure diesel injectors / super high pressure hydraulics, see example from philjunior-bloke) – means you roughly know the materials used, the coatings and the tolerances, rough number produced – this math is can be done and is correct.
Ok but it's not just machining in the case of forks, is it? As you point out, there's finishing, treating, coating, painting etc. And assembly, that can't be cheap. I bet it's done by a human being, probably costs more than the machining. Then there's QC, if you're not Pace - that probably costs a fair bit too. All of that is in the manufacturing budget.
Anyway - the suggestion seems to be that SRAM, Fox etc are ripping off consumers by over charging - isn't it? Can someone find the corporate accounts from the US equivalent of Companies House, just to see how much profit, divis and bonuses they are making?
Anyway – the suggestion seems to be that SRAM, Fox etc are ripping off consumers by over charging – isn’t it?
As we live in a capitalist society, it's not really ripping off is it? Just maximising their profit. I imagine it's something they and most sizeable companies spend a lot of time trying to perfect.
They may well sell fewer forks (not just make less money) if they priced them based on what they cost to manufacture with a margin for R&D/sposorship etc. It's their business and up to them what they do though I would happily live in a world where they were priced differently (as long as the company survived!)