[Closed] What happened to the mountain bike industry?

i couldn't find a new headset for a 1.5" steerer + 44mm headtube combo...

But you could have changed the fork to a taper fork and got a headset to fit that.

I think some folk confuse obsolete with "can't buy the newest and shiniest for my 8 year old frame"

Exactly my point. Not being able to fit new standards to an old frame does not make the old frame obsolete if parts are still available to fit it and keep it rolling and performing as well as when it was built.

Some things have to change to support new tech, others not so much*, but you cant expect all new tech to be backwards compatible with old, despite the fact that a lot of it is, or is with adaptors.

i couldn't find a new headset for a 1.5" steerer + 44mm headtube combo...

That's not a proper example though is it, despite the fact that 44mm was really a post-1.5 inch development meant for flexibility of tapered and 1 1/8th, the fact that you *could* fit 1.5 inch forks to it was almost a side-benefit as most people didn't (the full 1.5/49mm cups was the intended platform for 1.5 inch steerers), you're talking about a very specific mix of parts there, not a bike rendered obsolete.

Either way you could still:

> fit new bearings to your existing cups (or are they proprietary?)
> fit a tapered fork
> fit a 1 1/8th fork
> use a bottom cup upside down and and the old top expanding ring and cover
> other bodge like get a custom cup made locally (or in your shed with a lathe) to fit bearings of your choice.

But it sure as hell wouldn't stop me using the bike. what happened to that frame, did you throw it away or is it actually still in use, thus proving it's not obsolete?

*just check any of my bikes, you'll find me clinging to old tech like square taper internal BBs on most of them and even nice flexy comfy 1 inch forks on the road bikes), I just don't think new standards is a big a deal as some of the aggrieved make out

EDIT - as per below, i do distinguish between functionally better and worthwile developments vs not, and I use the ones that work for me and ignore those that dont.

I've come to realise that a good bike is a good bike.

The standards and compatibility issue only becomes an issue if you intend to upgrade parts or change stuff, most people don't,

For stuff that was popular OEM kit you can normally get spares up to and beyond 10 years after it was phased out. For instance you can still get chainsets to fit square taper bottom brackets although the choice is reduced and mainly lower end stuff.

Rockshox still do straight steerer forks.

Of course wheel size doesn't stop me from enjoying my riding - it's lush round here.
🙂

Most are younger or newer to riding and are not clinging to the we were here first/invented it "OUR SPORT" mentality that comes out in these sort of threads.

I don't have that mentality - the sport doesn't belong to anyone.
You're the one who seems incapable of understanding anyone's point of view apart from your own.

they don't bang on about being done over by "the industry" or trust or being conned.

I don't have that mentality - the sport doesn't belong to anyone.
You're the one who seems incapable of understanding anyone's point of view apart from your own.

I don't think the MTB 'activity' is in decline, I can see why the Industry thinks it is and in a way has contributed to it's own demise, I shall tell a story of my own little world that has gone from three bike shops to only one and the one that was most energetic, that organised rides, took folk out had to close because it couldn't make the margins.

Retail in the high street faces high costs, it also has struggled ever since the VAT rate went up to 20% which is a fifth of the business turnover and that last 2.5% in many cases was all the margin they had, now gone to George Osbourne.

People who open bike shops are rarely good business people and they get placed under all sorts of pressure, I suspect the internet nowadays counts for at least 50% of the business and most of that is least cost routed.

Then you have the reps ramming stock they can't afford if they want to hold brand X, this particular shop had a great formula, a shop, not a particularly high rent, coffee shop inhouse, rides nearby, both he and his mrs organised rides, some for ATB others for Mums even along canal tow paths that sort of thing and the business had real hope even at the height of the recession in 2011, 2012, but it failed.

It failed because he couldn't afford to finance the stock, the stock turn wasn't great enough he couldn't price match the likes of Wiggle and Chain reaction and the 'Industry' put him under too much pressure, so they fed him high price stock on the one hand and allowed bigger fish to discount it on the other.

So why would you consider opening a shop under these conditions? Without enthusiast shops on the ground you don't get folk introduced to something as specialist as trail riding, so they go on the road. Unfortunately the Road boom has also bust for the same reasons.

There are now too many brands taking ever decreasing slices of the cake, plus the internet opens our market to every tom dick and harry, bikes direct from China, ATB's direct from Germany, it's no surprise that anyone in the business must feel squeezed, think of all the 'new' brands that burst onto the scene, Ghost, Canyon, YT Industries, I don't know them all but this guy seemed to have a new brand almost every week and now I heard the other day Trek which is the one shop left in our area, is now selling direct over the Internet to compete, although I understand they will deliver via a shop at probably a reduced margin.

We have just started a cross over to mountain bike night for the roadies at our club to encourage them onto the path of true righteousness, but it's not exactly over subscribed and the 'proper' bikes are very expensive so on the one hand it's good as a consumer to see the prices tumbling, I can see why those attempting to profit from it would be in a stress. I also agree with the poster back there about the 27.5 thing and the incompatibility, it wasn't broke, they should never have tried to fix it for short term gain.

Anyway that's my three happorth too many brands and two big discount sites defining pricing and margins, no room for enthusiasts to operate and without enthusiasts who is going to grow the market?

@mindmap3 I think you're spot on re youngsters. I don't know what the average age of posters is on here but I see a lot of "I'm 40/50/60" type comments which suggests it might be quite high. I'm lucky in that I don't have a mortgage and have a high disposable income but if you are in your teens or early twenties then there's virtually no way you'd be in that position. Even so, I only have one MTB (I've a road and CX bike as well) as I don't feel the need to buy a bike just for the sake of it.

Top kit has always been pricey, but £4k was the ceiling for a long time. There are plenty of bikes beyond this nowadays and you actually see them!

Things like forks seem a massively expensive upgrade now but maybe I'm stuck in 2005 when a top end set of forks werwe £500 or so.

One thing that I think may challenge the industry is the inroduction of younger riders. Where I ride, I don't see that many.

Don't forget to factor in inflation!

I remember when RockShox SIDs first came out in 1998 @£600, ~£950 in today's money, a Boxxer was £999 ~£1600 now.

As you said at the beginning of your post, top end kit has always been expensive, but look at entry level and mid range now compared to then, in 1998 £300 got you a basic rigid, but just about offroad capable MTB with crap brakes and the lowest SIS derailleurs, £400 before a named Groupset appeared (Altus)

£300-£400 now gets you either a decent rigid MTB with hydraulic discs, or a front sprung model with decent cable stoppers.

and £300 now is <£200 in old money, back then you could just about get a Raleigh Max from Halfords with plastic cantis for £200

I mean look what £400-£700 gets you now, amazing value!
The top end may be going up in price, but the cost of entry and the mid range kit is better value than ever before, and the top end is not representative of what the general bike buying public buy.

Young riders are still around, they're probably riding at times you don't though! And the kids race entries are getting bigger and bigger round this way too.

mindmap3 - Member

Things like forks seem a massively expensive upgrade now but maybe I'm stuck in 2005 when a top end set of forks werwe £500 or so.

Which would be £700 today. You can spend more than £700 on forks but that'll get a very very good one (and o'course, today you can get forks for a couple of hundred quid that are better than a £500 one in 2005)

Is MTBing in decline or is it just not growing at the rate of road cycling (which is growing fast!)?

amedias - Member

That's not a proper example though is it,

i know what you mean, but it did affect me. From my point of view it's not an internet anecdote, it was a pain in the ar53.

Either way you could still:

> fit new bearings to your existing cups (or are they proprietary?)

that's what i did, problem was it was a crap headset with next to no sealing - hence looking for a new one.

> use a bottom cup upside down and and the old top expanding ring and cover

that's a pretty clever suggestion... (i can't *see* it working in my head, but it sounds worth a go)

what happened to that frame, did you throw it away or is it actually still in use, thus proving it's not obsolete?

sold with shagged headset.

anyway, i think we agree, i'm not convinced 'obsolete standards' is a bit problem, i just replied to a request for examples.

[quote=chiefgrooveguru ]Is MTBing in decline[s] or is it just not growing at the rate of road cycling (which is growing fast!)[/s]?Not from what I can see.

use a bottom cup upside down and and the old top expanding ring and cover

(i can't *see* it working in my head, but it sounds worth a go)

I've used exactly that in the past with a Hope bottom 44mm tapered cup and bearing, but with the top split ring and top cap from the old headset (compatible angle at bearing interface).

You could possibly even use the Hope *bottom* crown race on the top as long as there's enough leeway for it to compress. A normal 1.5 inch steerer diameter is 38.1mm, where as the crown race seat dimension on the steer is 39.7-39.8 so it *might* work depending on tolerances as there is some room for the race to compress down as it's a split design on Hopes.

If you're handy with a lathe you could easily make a new compression ring anyway.

I do feel for you, issues like that can be a real pain in the backside, but fortunately they are few and far between and don't drop up that regularly, and when they do there is normally always a way around it if you have the time to hunt out the bit you need or get creative.

Great post and after 21 years as a fanatical mountain biker followed by five on the road my answer is simple: "Mud and convenience".

I got sick of the constant filth, the wear and tear and the falls and small injuries as well as the need to drive almost every time I went out on the mountain bike. Now I can ride the roadie from my front door and come back two hour later clean but feeling absolutely beasted so I'm considerably fitter than when I mountain biked as well.

Many of us started mountain biking in the late 80s or early 90s, attracted by the comfort and ease of the new mountain bikes. At that time road bikes were still skinny steel and not very comfortable for an amateur but now thanks to SIS, padded handlebars, smooth-riding carbon frames, compact gearing and so on even an old fogey like me can ride like a god.

I think you're spot on re youngsters. I don't know what the average age of posters is on here but I see a lot of "I'm 40/50/60" type comments which suggests it might be quite high.

The issue of standards and designed in obsolescence has been raging for years. Mountain bikes aren't the only consumer product affected as anyone with an Apple iPhone will testify once they download an "update" that slows down their hitherto premium priced product.

Over the last few years, we've seen a proliferation of standards which make no sense at all. I've long blathered on about 15mm vs 20mm front hubs and why we have tapered head tubes when 1.5" would do the same job but better, but the cynicism over the recent Boost standard has enraged me to the point where I am pretty disillusioned with the whole pastime.

The wheel size thing still irks me. 26ers are ace and will continue to be ace in a way that's completely distinct from what makes a 29er ace. If you buy a new frame to replace a three year old bike tomorrow, then you'll have to spend on new forks and wheels, which means you might as well take the hit on a complete bike.

Being a mostly American-led market has been a factor, as consumers there seem more willing to spend the equivalent of £4k on a bike and overlook the fact that they won't be able to buy spare parts for the Fox fork or that none of the components on the bike will be able to be transferred to a new frame in two years time.

It's no wonder that the market is depressed, loyal customers are being treated badly and the ideas being trotted out by the industry are bordering on the ridiculous...certainly reading the reviews and listening to the feedback from other mountain bikers, the 27.5+ thing seems like a compromise too far.

Isn't that just a reflection of the media? We're the social media dinosaurs on here. All the youngsters are riding DH/jumps at the bike park and posting on bebo and myspace.

If you're right about the age demographic there's another aspect to it: one thing that attracts me to road riding is the "lore" and the subtlety and finesse of riding in a pack or with a group of buddies. There's the tactics, the techniques and the thrill of the speed; I think road cycling just appeals more to older riders.

I've realised that my frustration at the ever-changing standards in the MTB industry is inversely proportional to the frequency I ride my (26") mountain bike 🙂

If anything I've shifted away from road riding and I'm doing more mountain biking now. I love both, I just tend to flit from preferring one to the other depending on my fitness, the weather, the state of my bikes but perhaps more importantly which sport I've most recently been following in the media. When the UCI DH seasons starts it will be all about the MTB for me, but I guarantee that come Tour de France I'll be back out in my lycra.

^ Globalti, --- that .. bunched riding in traffic, staring at back wheels or your mate in lycra a bit too close and 'etiquette' etc, that's most of the stuff that puts me off road riding : )

Lore as in the history, that's good stuff though.

Don't forget to factor in inflation!

I remember when RockShox SIDs first came out in 1998 @£600, ~£950 in today's money, a Boxxer was £999 ~£1600 now.

As you said at the beginning of your post, top end kit has always been expensive, but look at entry level and mid range now compared to then, in 1998 £300 got you a basic rigid, but just about offroad capable MTB with crap brakes and the lowest SIS derailleurs, £400 before a named Groupset appeared (Altus)

£300-£400 now gets you either a decent rigid MTB with hydraulic discs, or a front sprung model with decent cable stoppers.

and £300 now is <£200 in old money, back then you could just about get a Raleigh Max from Halfords with plastic cantis for £200

I mean look what £400-£700 gets you now, amazing value!
The top end may be going up in price, but the cost of entry and the mid range kit is better value than ever before, and the top end is not representative of what the general bike buying public buy.

Young riders are still around, they're probably riding at times you don't though! And the kids race entries are getting bigger and bigger round this way too.

My first MTB, a Spesh Rockhopper seemed pretty good at the time with STX bits, V brakes and descent spesh tyres.

Personally, I think value has gone down over recent years - a mate bought a Rockhopper Pro in 08/09 and the spec for the money seemed great - Avid Dics, Reba SL forks, XT rear mech. The equivelent bike now gets an X5 / Deore mix with Suntour forks and Tektro brakes. That's gone backwards from where I'm sitting, especially the forks. When I look back at previous bikes to the example I gave, you could see a steady improvement in spec / value but I think this has declined in recent years.

Some of the lower spec stuff these dats is great - e.g. Deore and I guess those that have been riding for a long time need to see this as entry to good stuff rather than XT.

Even at the local DH trails on a summers day when I should be WFH, there aren't many younger riders knocking about. Those sort of places were pretty popualar when I was younger.

In 1991 an entry level bike was £300 or so, but it came with 200GS which had plastic brake levers.

I bought a 92 Kona Fire Mountain which came with STX-RC groupset. Compare that to Deore now with its hydraulic discs - it's no comparison.

Personally, I think value has gone down over recent years - a mate bought a Rockhopper Pro in 08/09 and the spec for the money seemed great - Avid Dics, Reba SL forks, XT rear mech. The equivelent bike now gets an X5 / Deore mix with Suntour forks and Tektro brakes. That's gone backwards from where I'm sitting, especially the forks.

This echoes my experience and observation. While entry level bikes are undeniably better now than they were in 2005 (compare a new vs old Specialized Hardrock for example), the middle ground has climbed inexorably higher in terms of cost. We seem to forget that back in 2009, we saw SLX almost double in price overnight due to "currency fluctuations", with increases across the board for XT, Deore and XTR. Back in 2005, £1,100 would have bought me an S-Works Enduro frame (itself up £100 on the previous year) with a scandalous £650 being splurgeable on Fox forks. These days, the nearest equivalent frame and fork deal is at least 2.5x that...

Is the bike industry complaining at the moment? Cos if not, what's the issue? It's a great time for biking ; lots of choice, for consumers. across all price spectrums...apologies if written in OPs post the answer to my question - it was too long for me to read. :D..

bunched riding allows for very pleasant chatting and one mans 'etiquette' is anothers rules to ensure the safety of all.

Compare that to Deore now with its hydraulic discs - it's no comparison.

How much does it cost Shimano to manufacture a groupset now compared to back then? Apart from the brakes little has significantly changed and even with the brakes its not that a big a change really.

Apart from the brakes little has significantly changed

Not sure about that.

[img] [/img]

[img] ?w=430&h=430&a=7[/img]

So apart from all the stuff that's changed, nothing has changed!

molgrips - Member
Apart from the brakes little has significantly changed
Not sure about that

Look different, **** all difference in use.

Apart from the disc brakes, hollowtech cranks and BB, 2x and 10 speed, so all the stuff that's different - it looks far more durable to me. Those pressed steel mechs went floppy really quickly.

cynic-al - Member

Look different, **** all difference in use.

Deore today performs way better than I remember STX working- handles mud better, shifts better, and it's managing more gears and wider ranges too. And now clutches too.

ctrl C...ctrl V for bluehelmets post.Nail on head.
Bike Industry=Importers/manufactures.They are doing quite well.Sales have levelled out this last year but they are selling more than 5 years ago.
Bike Industry=Shops.The over abundance of shops (many opened on the promise of an ever increasing market) and internet pricing has lead to a lot of price based competition and so reduced margins.Some shops simply can't operate on those numbers.....many (more) will fail (long established/newly set up/some good/some bad).

Deore today performs way better than I remember STX working- handles mud better, shifts better, and it's managing more gears and wider ranges too. And now clutches too.

Ok, but APART FROM ALL OF THAT it's exactly the same!

Back in 2005, £1,100 would have bought me an S-Works Enduro frame (itself up £100 on the previous year) with a scandalous £650 being splurgeable on Fox forks. These days, the nearest equivalent frame and fork deal is at least 2.5x that...

So how much is a RIP OFF and how much is just inflation?

£1,600 for a single pivot frame with no import taxes, duties or distributor margin to pay? You think that's good value to someone relatively new to the hobby?

Thank **** for my awesome Meta V4 that was half that.

hora - Member
£1,600 for a single pivot frame with no import taxes, duties or distributor margin to pay? You think that's good value to someone relatively new to the hobby?

Thank **** for my awesome Meta V4 that was half that.

Good value is down to your expectations, values and experiences not a number.

You have also helped prove the point that mountain biking isn't getting more expensive with a frame that was actually cheaper than the 2005 one the guy was going on about.

edit doesn't your Commencal also have no duty, import taxes or distributor margin?

Thing is, some boutique brands carry a boutique premium, as in any market sector - but there's so much choice out there now at lower prices too from things like the Bossnut through YT, Canyon, Commencal etc all producing bloody good bikes at silly cheap money. Then you see Specialized respond by lowering their prices, giving more choice to consumers who may prefer to go in store rather than online. MTB is in a good place now for quality, choice and value.

Retailers need to realign with a changing market - focus on the workshop, directly target direct brand bike riders for their workshop needs (I know one very good shop who makes 70% of their workshop revenue from YT/Canyon owners - and at full rate as there's no haggling on the basis of having bought the bike there), and then do custom builds for the high end customers, your SC, Yeti etc.

The market is evolving - but the opportunities are there as part of that.

custom builds for the high end customers, your SC, Yeti

Not sure on sc in the UK but they arrive here needing built from scratch all the bits in packaging even for a standard build that's a fair bit of work

From my observations (And I once looked into this quite carefully), using Specialized as the example, bikes up until MY2009 were increasing in value, on an RRP of parts vs. RRP of bike basis. Year on year better spec and same price give or take. From 2009 > 2013 prices rose by over 10% per year. I haven't looked at more recent equivalents but I suspect its slowed down as the pound has strengthened a bit against the dollar, and alot against the euro, which keeps the US brands a bit lower priced, and means they are competing against very cheap euro brands.

What happened?

Still making and sellng bikes and bits, AFAIK?

1990 my 274GBP months wages bought me a Reynolds 500 [s]anchor[/s] frame with Exage, steel bars and seatpost, Biopace chainrings, Araya rims and plastic brake levers with cantis at the other end. Rode it like I stole it until it died. i know this because I bought a Dawes Tracker.

2011 the same money (in the sales tbf) would buy me a 6061 [s]anchor[/s] frame, hydraulic brakes, coil forks with lockout, alloy bars and seatpost, Deore/XT running gear. I know this because am riding a 2011 GT Avalanche 1.0 disc

Today? Quite confident I could go into a store and buy a new mtb that works fine - but right now my used bikes seem still to have more life in them than me so I'll continue using them/upgrading parts as they wear out until I:

A. Sell them all and buy TOBTRTA (The One Bike To Rule Them All)
or
B. The industry deems that 26" forks and wheels are dead and unsupported.
or
C. See my last days out buying and restoring cool and not so cool stuff off Retrobike. By which time 29ers could be making an appearance... 😯

Now I have to find some new old wheels for this Raleigh Sirocco...

Bikes are ace. Yes my seemingly bombproof 1990s square taper XT BB/drivetrain feels so much better than my octalink Alivio one. Have no idea what a modern XT drivetrain feels like to compare.

If 650b disappears in favour of whatever (plus etc etc), I'll sack MTB off completely once my current bike dies. Just not prepared to be had over again.

Couldn't you just replace your dead bike with whatever's available at the time,

I've mainly stuck to 26" wheels, straight fork steerers, threaded BBs and QR frames (atleast 20 and 15mm forks only [i]normally[/i] mean a hub end cap swap). All that stuff is still available (currently) but maybe that's only because it was the standard for so long. How long is the boost standard going to last? Is 27.5 going to get usurped in the not too distant? (crosses fingers for a 26" revival)

Are you still going to be able to get [i]ok[/i] parts for your bike 5 years down the line (I'm talking decent work horse parts not bling or cheapo basic)
But then, maybe manufacturers are getting around that by ensuring frames don't last 5 years any more 😉

*and it's still a bloody good bike, very capable and a hell of a lot of fun.

It'll be interesting when someone rediscovers how fast a really light 26" bike can accelerate due to lighter and smaller wheels.

molgrips - I got told off for posting the giant ad that said 27.5 was better as smaller wheels accelerated faster. Apparently that doesn't apply to 26"

1300g wheel set and 450g tyres...

IME bikes don't die very often, this may be a bit triggers broom but until you actually crack the frame bikes live on.

I bought a new bike in 2014 when the bike I bought in 2006 needed new forks, pretty much a complete new drivetrain and new shifters. Sorting it out more or less like for like was going to be between half and 2/3rds the cost of a new bike so I took the opportunity!
I guess this does depend on where in the market you're sitting though, and might not apply if you have a Nikolai or something.

Are you still going to be able to get ok parts for your bike 5 years down the line (I'm talking decent work horse parts not bling or cheapo basic)

Well people have been saying that for >5 years already, I remember people moaning about it in the 90s.

So I guess the test is, is there any 5 year old bike you can't fix/get replacement parts for now?
how about 10 years old?
how about 20?
30?

apart from a few exceptions* which really are edge cases, and can still probably be worked around if you try hard, you'll find that it's still quite easy to keep those bikes running with acceptable parts.

* the place you'll run into a genuine issue is 1 inch steerer suspension forks. you're reduced to NOS or 2nd hand for that now, btu then 1inch sus forks wasn't really a 'thing' for very long anyway and any bike form that era still in use is going to be on the kind of duty where it would be fine with a rigid one anyway, and as above, NOS or 2nd hand are still possibilities.

Deore today performs way better than I remember STX working- handles mud better, shifts better,

Obviously it is personal experience but I've always felt that my old STX running on Deore thumbshifters worked much better than newer stuff in mud and the difference in shifting speed is negligible.

The only drivetrain components I can remember being particularly poor were some SunTour Microdrive bits in the 90's.
Bit fiddly re setup and seem to wear quickly.

Shimano stuff just works, doesn't it?

I don't think RockShox forks are as good as they were.
Or Brooks saddles, for that matter.

The industry deems that 26" forks and wheels are dead and unsupported.

hasn't happened though, I bought some Hope Enduro rims a few months ago from a bike shop in 26" flavour, the world didn't stop.

best "value" model year I remember?

2008 Specialized Rockhopper Disc

M4 Aluminium frame, RS fork with hydraulic damper, Avid hydraulic disc brakes, SRAM gearing

we used to sell these around £600, cracking bike for the money, certainly capable of "mountain bike" rides on rough ground and in wet / muddy conditions

I remember the prices creeping up and the specs sliding down every following model year

I am an average rider, not really all that good. I can get my wheels off the ground now and then when my mojo is working right and I like riding single track in the woods as fast as I can (i.e not all that fast). I'm 45 so not as fit as I once was, I'm a father of two so not as able to recover from getting badly damaged as I once was and I'm not loaded so 5k for a bike is not really money well spent.

Happily I can keep my old blur LT going for a few more years with good reliable parts if I want to or I could spend 2k on something end of last years line and get a truly amazing bike well beyond my abilities (like those carbon triggers Paul's were knocking out). The industry moves because all industries do but in general you can get a lighter, better, safer, faster and more reliable bike than you ever could back in the "golden days" for much less money (except SC who are right up themselves now). MTB isn't cheap, it never was but I have always been into the expense and the inconvenience. Some innovations have been questionable but you don't have to keep up with the trends, new bikes are optional after all.

I feel that the scene has become too diluted with niches, and that there is a perception that certain types of trail can/should only be ridden by certain niches of mtb bike. I also think that the mtb scene went through a period of snobbishness where people looked down their noses at others for not having a certainty of bike. Im thinking of the era when all-Mountain bikes came about, and having ahardtail was looked down upon. It was the way I felt when out and about.

Compare that to Road, the scene is more level in that irrespective of spec, a road bike is generally suitable for enjoyable Road riding.

With the niche thing comes the back of the mind thought of "am I riding the right type of bike?" rather than "I'm enjoying this", and that can serve to bring down the pervasive ethos of the mtb scene.

Can someone make a video of a group of people riding together on different bikes? Just to show that you really can ride most trails on most bikes, and you don't NEED anything specific.

Just to show that you really can ride most trails on most bikes, and you don't NEED anything specific.

Pfft. If you're not riding Boost, 27.5+, and don't have a fat bike in the shed, you need to get with the programme.

It's no surprise that 2008 may have represented peak value for bicycles in the UK - the entire industry runs in USD but here we buy in GBP. Look at the exchange rate since the late '80s, when the MTB became popular in the UK - see the best year?

[img] [/img]

chiefgrooveguru - Member
It's no surprise that 2008 may have represented peak value for bicycles in the UK - the entire industry runs in USD but here we buy in GBP. Look at the exchange rate

molgrips - Member
Can someone make a video of a group of people riding together on different bikes? Just to show that you really can ride most trails on most bikes, and you don't NEED anything specific.

Might try and grab a vid from tonight but it will involve everything from a 29r HT (possibly rigid) through to 170mm Bikes with everything in between.

Should have taken a pic from Sunday's ride. Me on my old Patriot, my mate on a fat bike.

So I guess the test is, is there any 5 year old bike you can't fix/get replacement parts for now?

I may well be worrying for no reason and 27.5 and other new "standards" will be around for ages but the suddenly dropping a standard that's been there since the start for seemingly no reason seems a worrying trend.

1" example you gave was ditched reasonably early on

This is the only one that ever really holds any water, and even then I still maintain not as big a deal as people thing, on the road even less so, but look at MTB:

[i]headsets [/i]- available
[i]stems[/i] - available and shimmable
[i]rigid forks[/i] - limited choice, but available if you're unlucky enoguh to break your existing fork
[i]sus forks[/i] - not available, but then as we said earlier, wasn't a thing for long anyway, chances of you right now in 2016 needing to find a replacement boinger for you 1 inch steerer'd MTB are slim. NOS and 2nd hand can still keep them going, especially as any fork of the right length for that era is likely to be one with swappable steerers.

The 1 inch steer situation is the trickiest one, but it's not insurmountable and it certainly isn't enough for you to throw a frame in the bin because it can't ever be ridden again.

an even shorter lived "standard" was GF's 1.25" steerer

no points for that example as very easy to fit a reducer and 1 1/8th headset and carry on, and bearings for your old 1.25" headset probably still available.

you can only get altus/acera 7spd gear currently

no points there as you *can* still get it, chains and cassettes not a problem, and if you've broken a 7speed shifter then 8speed will work with one less click, I think you'd also be surprised what NOS stuff is out there if you look, You could also consider drive train upgrade and keep the bike rolling, again, not a deal breaker.

but it's not work horse stuff is it

I disagree, it absolutely is workhorse stuff, especially on the consumables, and the only 7-speed [i]specific [/i]component apart from the chain and cassette of a 7speed drive train is the shifter, and as above, options are there.

One of my road bikes is still 7 speed, and HG50 cassettes shift and last as well as ever, and I can still walk into a LBS and buy one, don;t even have to hunt them down.

I do understand where the the worry about droppping of older standards comes from, I really do, but the reality is that it's not a major issue, for those that want to keep old kit going parts are available, and for those that don't well, they've moved on anyway so they're not affected.

I think a lot of people conflating "dropping a standard" with "parts unavailable and my bike becomes useless", when actually all it means "new bikes might not use this standard any more"

Those two situations are very different things.

Post-googling-update...

interesting quote from a 650B thread on this very forum 2 years ago....

decent 26" stuff will be around for a [b]couple of years[/b] and then start to disappear to the point of not being able to keep a 26er going.

Find good 7spd or 8spd now, won't be long before 9spd is off the menu as well.
Find a good cartridge bottom bracket, etc.

Yes you will be able to find the cheap stuff but that is all you will find.

Well we are a couple of years down the line and the important bits, tyres, rims and forks are still not a problem, let alone starting to disappear.

The drivetrain one makes me a chuckle a bit too, as after 3-5 years of decent use pretty much every part of a drivetrain is in need of replacement anyway, rings and cassettes will have been done a few times already, mechs bashed to bits, shifters gone floppy etc. so why wouldn't you look at replacing with newer stuff? It will retro-fit jsut fine, it's not like you can't 10 or 11speed on a bike that came with 8 or 9 speed.

Another one, which is demonstrably not true if you look around online.

Have a look at the choice of rim brake rims, not much in the way of decent stuff now.

This same discussion gets trotted out ad-infinitum as new stuff comes out, but people still keep riding their bikes, and still keep fixing them, tell you what, in 5 years time if you can't get some 26inch tyres for your MTB, I'll buy you a new (28.3inch by then I'm sure) bike so you can stop worrying about it 😉

I think a lot of people conflating "dropping a standard" with "parts unavailable and my bike becomes useless", when actually all it means "new bikes might not use this standard any more"

Those two situations are very different things.

I agree up to a point, but try finding a straight steerer 20mm fork

I think a lot of people conflating "dropping a standard" with "parts unavailable and my bike becomes useless", when actually all it means "new bikes might not use this standard any more"
Those two situations are very different things.

I agree up to a point, but try finding a straight steerer 20mm fork

You've absolutely just proven my point there!

lack of, or difficulty sourcing, one specific component does not render the bike obsolete.

I can only assume you'd be looking for such a model because you had one and it's now broken/worn out?

so your options are:*

> buy a 15mm or QR fork (and convert and your wheel)
OR
> fix the broken bit of your current fork
OR
> buy a NOS fork

Or at absolute worst, buy a 2nd hand one, they're out there, your bike is not consigned to the bin and will be back riding as good as ever in no time.

* which funnily enough are pretty the same options had you just broken a 2 week old current fork, repair or replace.

Yes I get the point you are making.

I've got a 2010 5-Spot which I absolutely love - I think its the last year they did a straight steerer which is the only thing that really dates it.

Fork is fine I just know my choices will be very limited if I ever want to change, but realistically I'll probably just run the bike until it dies as I still really enjoy riding it.

Have a look at the choice of rim brake rims, not much in the way of decent stuff now.

Find good 7spd or 8spd now, won't be long before 9spd is off the menu as well.

Find a good cartridge bottom bracket, etc.

No issue whatsoever getting parts for my 1989MY roadbike, other than the fact that hubs/wheels are now all 130mm rather than 126mm OLN.

first site I go to, aka my usual online store.20 pages worth of....

I think that's half the issue Mr Rocketeer, you obviously know where to look, but most people get blinkered by what CRC/Wiggle/Evans are currently selling, and only see the shiney new stuff on display in their LBS, and either forget or don't realise that there's other online shops that cater for older and more traditional markets, and the many warehouses and stockrooms of LBS that hide the less blingy stuff

feel sorry for those with 5speed

I don't feel that sorry for them, still 5 speed freewheels aplenty from suppliers if you ask.

other than the fact that hubs/wheels are now all 130mm rather than 126mm OLN.

and even that's not a problem is it, you can cold set your frame, or re-space your hubs, or just squeeze it in!

long live old bikes! 😀

not even knowing where to look.
it's the german equivalent of CRC, Wiggle or Evans.

LBS, you might have to ask, if it's an LBS that geared for posh roadies or the latest MTB stuff. If it's a mostly hybrid/commuter oriented LBS, all that stuff is probably behind the counter.

Find good 7spd or 8spd now, won't be long before 9spd is off the menu as well.

[b]chainring bolt patterns … that's my contribution to this middle aged man rant …[/b]

But, to be honest, new bikes work better than ever, and are better value.
And spares for old bikes are still available.
So no rant really required from the rider point of view.

I agree that some changes have been more hassle than improvement, but overall, the direction of travel is good.

Retail problems are real and difficult to overcome though. But that's not just mountain bikes, is it.

spares for old bikes are still available.

Rockshox still make good ones.
Just been looking at some straight steerer 2016 29er SIDs myself.

chainring bolt patterns

There are two things you can do for/in a market, a)expand it with lots of new people usually through some new quantum leap in innovation or fashion driven attraction via movie or mass opinion leader placement or b)Create more niches, re inventions (of the wheel), to sell more to the existing proponents.

Neither is now happening and hasn't for a while since the 27.5/Enduro BS.

As has been mentioned, you can and will be able to keep any bike you want to running as long as you want it to.

I have a 1992 Orange Clockwork. Without much trouble I could replace the Shimano DX groupset, Panaracer Smoke tyres, 1" headset, 25.8mm bar or virtually any other part with new or mint period correct parts. I could replace the rigid forks with a fully refurbished set of Pace RC35's. What's more they wouldn't cost the earth.

I can't buy the latest suss forks for it but even if I could they would ruin the handling. Pace were still offering the RC39's with a 1" steerer back in 2005 and they're still half decent by modern standards if I really wanted to go that way.

Yes, as your bike gets older you may not be able to get the latest version of every part but it's always been this way. Get a new bike or keep your old one running. It really is as simple as that.

After reading all this and posting, or not, has a single person changed their opinion?

More choice is a good thing. The end.

Poopscoop - Member
After reading all this and posting, or not, has a single person changed their opinion?

No of course not, I'm right, why would I want to change that? 😉

Poopscoop - Member
After reading all this and posting, or not, has a single person changed their opinion?

So no I hold firm that things are going well in the world of mountain bikes, the range and choice is fantastic.

molgrips - Member
Can someone make a video of a group of people riding together on different bikes? Just to show that you really can ride most trails on most bikes, and you don't NEED anything specific.

More choice?

When it's 'reinventing the wheel' and not giving you the choice as its being phased out; that rankles.

Yes more choice, if some in the handle bar thread were in charge we would all still be using 680mm bars.
Sram kicked the drive train market upside down with 11sp
I can choose from a huge range of bikes with leanings to certain styles of riding and the do everything bikes a really really capable these days.
And you can still buy 26" kit despite all those who don't believe it. As for the actual wheel size I don't have an emotional attachment to it.

mikewsmith - Member
[i]
Poopscoop - Member
After reading all this and posting, or not, has a single person changed their opinion?[/i]

Most of what I've read is moaning, extrapolation or a basic misunderstanding of simple things like inflation or exchange rates.
The BS on you can't get this or that when wait a minute you can or the melodrama of I can't get this I must bin my bike the evil bike industry is evil stuff.

So no I hold firm that things are going well in the world of mountain bikes, the range and choice is fantastic

Ho-hum. Kind of have to reply as you quoted my post.

Moaning? From me, perhaps, if it contrasts from your viewpoint it seems? A heavy amount of cynicism from me however? Most definitely guilty there. I've seen enough of this amazing world to know when change for changes sake is being applied rather than change for the better.

That said, I hope I never become so world weary as to attempt to belittle any contrasting viewpoint to my own. There in lies true cynicism.

Hmmm.. perhaps I'm not as cynical as I thought afterall?

Wont comment on my or others "basic misunderstanding of simple things" such as exchange rates or inflation. I don't profess to be an internet expert in such matters or even bother attempting to be via a bit of googling and such. In my previous posts I didn't bring them up to support my empathy with the OP's opinions anyway. Not sure he did either but without a long reread I'm really not sure?

Ah, not being sure... A wonderful thing! The self admission that not every opinion other than my own is inherently "BS". Yep, I'm definitely feeling less cynical by the minute.

You mention "melodrama", "binning bikes" and an "evil industry".
Cant say I feel any melodrama at all and its a shame you sense that from a forum post about the cycle industry. Im passionate about bikes, arent we all, not melodramatic about them however? Can't say I see the industry as evil either. Misguided on occasion, sure, not evil though.

Anyway, not meaning go into sarcasm overload but to be honest mike when you time after time belittle others opinions simply because you don't agree with them, well...as you said in a previous case about wheel sizes I think, "it becomes dull".

Back to the real world.

Zero animosity meant in this post. We all/both love bikes and if I ever met you out on a trail one day id shake hands and be glad to meet a fellow STWer whilst out. 🙂

Then compare wheel sizes.