[Closed] What happened to DH?

Southern enduro rd 1 was on 70% DH trails at a bike park.

Rounds 2, 3 & 4 there will not be a trail centre trail in sight.

It's alive and well amongst my mates. Just don't enter competitions and save the money for trips abroad.

I'm extra cynical because I really don't enjoy racing, embodies "good riders are the fast riders" and breeds mediocre head down pedalling looking at the giant sat nav checking heart rates and jizzing all over Strava data in some enduro goggles.

If you're out smiling, doing what you fancy, then you're winning.

It's alive and well amongst my mates. Just don't enter competitions and save the money for trips abroad.

I'm extra cynical because I really don't enjoy racing, embodies "good riders are the fast riders" and breeds mediocre head down pedalling looking at the giant sat nav checking heart rates and jizzing all over Strava data in some enduro goggles.

No, you're cynical as you have some strange misconceptions about enduro and DH. I've never raced DH, but did a fair few enduros, and I've never experienced the Billy big baws people you seem to think race there. It's mostly just average Joes, having a crack with their mates, and trying to be a slightly better rider, as Mike rightly says.

I know of quite a few folk who like to slag Enduro off, quoting all the cliched pish about goggles and fluoro pyjamas, when in reality, the main reason they don't do it is because their massive egos couldn't quite square with seeing how distinctly average they actually are. And the thing is, no one else really cares how you do, only you.

trying to be a slightly better rider

This is the bit that gets me, the are many ways to be a better rider other than improving some meaningless data on a screen (at the end of the day, that's all it is).

But if you've had a good day out with mates, good on you, experience and memories with people are the bits that matter.

But does bit of data on a screen really reward the training, stressing, taking race lines rather than fun lines, the expense, having to ride boring stuff because it's part of the course?

Maybe my view of the MTB public is skewed because I come from a BMX background, but it is soooo tragic when you see the typical enduro warrior at the likes of swinley, GoPro, giant Sat-Nav, riding horrifically dirty because they're pedalling hard in all the wrong places and subsequently braking hard in all the wrong places because riding is only about being fast, being stressed, fighting the bike, just so you can "improve" your data on a screen. It's not just me who has this view either, when my other BMX mates come out too, the consensus is it looks pretty tragic. Just chill.

I maybe get worked up about it because the best rides are the ones with sound people, relaxing, pushing each other, laughs and a general feeling of positivity and smiles, just bums me out people missing out because of meaningless nonsense.

Maybe my view of the BMX/DirtJump/DH public is skewed because I come from a road/running background, but it is soooo tragic when you see the typical BMXer/DirtJumper/DHwarrior at the likes of Swinley, siting around do nothing or just letting thing go past because they want to look cool. Riding is nt just about jumps and drops you also need to build a decent level of fitness/strength, not just "look cool" on your bike. Don't they realise while they are young and healthy they could make massive gains in their fitness which they will never be able to manage again once older. It's not just me who has this view either, its all my other middle age mates who think it looks pretty tragic too. Push harder you lazy kids.

Just chill.

You're the one getting wound up by what you perceive others to be doing.

This is the bit that gets me, the are many ways to be a better rider other than improving some meaningless data on a screen

Takes nothing else into account. Everyone knows if you have a bunch of mates, going racing and beating them all gives you top bragging rights.

But does bit of data on a screen really reward the training, stressing, taking race lines rather than fun lines, the expense, having to ride boring stuff because it's part of the course?

Do you honestly think 90% of the people who enter the local/regional races you mention train specifically for those events? Judging by the people who do go, I doubt it.

Maybe my view of the MTB public is skewed because I come from a BMX background, but it is soooo tragic when you see the typical enduro warrior at the likes of swinley, GoPro, giant Sat-Nav, riding horrifically dirty because they're pedalling hard in all the wrong places and subsequently braking hard in all the wrong places because riding is only about being fast, being stressed, fighting the bike, just so you can "improve" your data on a screen. It's not just me who has this view either, when my other BMX mates come out too, the consensus is it looks pretty tragic. Just chill.

If you're doing stereotypes, is it as tragic as your typical wannabe BMX'er riding an MTB in his sisters skinny jeans, who can't ride up any hill because he's too busy trying to be cool and non conformist, but can't pedal a bike more than a hundred metres without wanting to hurl up a lung?

Just as tragic.

I maybe get worked up about it because the best rides are the ones with sound people, relaxing, pushing each other, laughs and a general feeling of positivity and smiles, just bums me out people missing out because of meaningless nonsense.

What's meaningless nonsense to you, is fun and interesting to someone else. And vice versa.

Takes nothing else into account. Everyone knows if you have a bunch of mates, going racing and beating them all gives you top bragging rights.

Neanderthal alpha male BS.

a general feeling of positivity and smiles, just bums me out people missing out because of meaningless nonsense

[quote=deanfbm ]trying to be a slightly better rider
This is the bit that gets me, the are many ways to be a better rider other than improving some meaningless data on a screen (at the end of the day, that's all it is).
But if you've had a good day out with mates, good on you, experience and memories with people are the bits that matter.
But does bit of data on a screen really reward the training, stressing, taking race lines rather than fun lines, the expense, having to ride boring stuff because it's part of the course?

[img] [/img]

Neanderthal alpha male BS.

Let me guess, went racing, got smoked, now butthurt?

No different from the girls jean wearing faux BMX'ers braying at each other as to who can boost a jump higher.

I'd tend to agree with the point that the majority of DH riders are very very average and out gunned by their bikes. Living in Morzine you realise this even more and there is a small minority of riders that can actually "ride" a DH bike.

I agree that as enduro bikes have come in most have migrated over to those and changed their riding style and probably comfort on a bike. (Not feeling like they have to perform). The good riders who have gone more enduro are still pushing the bike to it's limits and the bikes are so good now they can get a lot out of them.

I was surprised how well the Capra handled a race at Hamsterly, once my full face was on it felt like a DH bike through and through. Granted not the hardest of tracks but I've not been anywhere in the UK, France or NZ where the trail bike has felt outgunned.

I'm not actually a fan of racing. I like watching it but I think Redbulls format is completely shit. Why cant we see the privateers anymore? Whats the point of dragging all that camera gear up a hill and not broadcasting everyone?!

I dont see DH getting as popular as it's last peak but I don't see it dying either.

Those that really want to ride a lot of DH usually relocate to a more suitable place or put up with the costs of riding in the UK

No, you're cynical as you have some strange misconceptions about enduro and DH. I've never raced DH, but did a fair few enduros, and I've never experienced the Billy big baws people you seem to think race there. It's mostly just average Joes, having a crack with their mates, and trying to be a slightly better rider, as Mike rightly says.

Me neither - I've only done a handful of the local DH races and it's pretty chilled out despite there being some pretty bloody rapid people there (shop supported riders). It's good fun and I'm not usually a competitive beast - I have no interest in Strava but I quite enjoy turning up once a month and trying to wobble down a track as quickly as I can.

No different from the girls jean wearing faux BMX'ers braying at each other as to who can boost a jump higher

Normally it's the strongest encouraging the weakest, strongest buzzing off the weakest improving, strongest then gets rad, weakest buzzes off of that and it spirals into an orgy of rad, fist bumps and bumming.

There's never a good place for willy waving and ego massaging, breeds negativity.

Not sure why you're commenting after your first line saying you had little experience?

I doubt Strava is replacing racing because it's nothing like an actual race.

One of the main issues was that back 10/15 years ago if you wanted gravity based riding you raced/rode DH as there wasn't the do it all bikes and large amount of trails we have now.

You can have a 6" travel bike and ride anywhere and everywhere.

DH is struggling for other reasons too. Even the French nationals. Because it's the same tired tracks and limited amount of riding for quite a lot of expense.

People will either be uplifting or on a trail bike somewhere.

A lot of former DH racers are racing Enduro too.

I genuinely wouldn't read too much into the Moelfre race being cancelled.

Races in July, particularly downhill, are not the best idea as a lot of people that would enter are on holiday.

The only time the Scottish Enduro Series held a race in July (Ae in 2014) the numbers were poor and the lowest they've ever had.

Though to be fair I think a lot of people misjudged that Ae round because of the pishness of the trail centre and a few uninspired events there in the past. I certainly did- I'd not have gone if I hadn't had the season ticket. Glad I did, it was mint.

Someone mentioned the social aspect somewhere further back, as I said before the demise of the DW & SDH forums (I think) had a part to play. Where before you had places with lots of like minded, fairly local riders to congregate and inspire each other to race there is now the crap anonymity of Facebook and, well, not much else.

Races back in the day were more than just the racing. The social aspect was brilliant,eg. sitting getting pished after FW practice was blown off (again) and certain people of this forum trying to bodily insert you into McTavishes Kitchen kept it interesting. Ego's were relatively low (those with an ego were endlessly mocked) and regardless of where we placed in the field I don't think any of us went home feeling short changed barring the usual DNF/DNS BS. Even so, you knew you would make up for it in a months time, six tops.

I have nothing against Enduro, it's just not the sort of thing I'd prefer to do as to be honest it doesn't sound like anything you couldn't do off your own back. I suppose the same could be said for DH to a certain extent but the uplift is the difference. Let's face it, pushing is crap.

Sooo BDS has a trail bike category now

https://www.wideopenmountainbike.com/2017/07/british-downhill-series-will-now-trail-bike-category

Thing is

I can ride my trail bike on a DH trail, it's called enduro racing

and as a bonus I don't have to wait around to get in maybe 60mins in total riding my bike over a weekend.

It's a good idea though, could encourage people to race who wouldn't have done before because they didn't have a dh bike (of course you don't need one but that doesn't stop it putting people off)

Its a good idea as its costing very little, and broadens the appeal (clearly thats needed). I can't imagine it will develop large fields though? A bit like HT categories at Enduro events - maybe a dozen on a good day.

it was HT cat in DH back in the day, thats where the real men were geting battered all the way down the track with the kids looking at you like you were mad

Does making a specific category mean it will generate any more entries?

I guess I could be considered target market for this. Ex BDS racer, no DH bike any more, race enduro's & regional, push up DH stuff (or ride up in my case!).

Yet, I still have zero interest.

£95 to ride my bike for about 30 minutes over a weekend, watching it get battered to hell on shonky old uplift trucks.

Pointless.

I can ride my trail bike on a DH trail, it's called enduro racing

It might give a short term boost to numbers but not a long term fix.

Me personally:

Would I travel to do a 'big' DH race:

Pearce, Yes on prices and accessibility.

BDS, No on prices and accessibility.

A bit like HT categories at Enduro events - maybe a dozen on a good day.

Hob Nob - Member

I guess I could be considered target market for this. Ex BDS racer, no DH bike any more, race enduro's & regional, push up DH stuff (or ride up in my case!).

I think the important target market is, well, the kid over the road from me with her alpine and her dad's credit card. First timers rather than returners.

Why not race?

I think I'd get in the way!
(I'd be at least a min slower than the top folk at Fort Bill).

It does seem expensive.

All the races are bloody hours away.

But I do have a DH bike and I'd rather be riding that than my trail bike most of the time.

For the cost of a couple of weekends racing (entry,travel,accom, etc) you're looking at the same price as a week in the Alps...

I think this is the biggest issue.

Obviously nobody is making much cash running the events, but the increased costs of liability insurance/medical cover etc are pushing prices past what folks believe is good value. I imagine that back in the heyday such costs were pretty insignificant?

Sooo BDS has a trail bike category now

They'll be doing stage races next...

https://www.wideopenmountainbike.com/2017/08/british-cycling-invites-tenders-hsbcuk-national-downhill-series-2018

It's all Instragrams fault apparently

The series basically needs a major sponsor to cover pretty much the whole thing so the entry fees aren't relevant, though I'm not sure how that'd work with the BC HSBC thing. If the Euromillions came up I'd do it and the entries would be free but you'd have to be of a standard (qualifying through regionals) to get in.

A shame Si has given notice, I believe he's really done it right.

But from the statement it suggests that it will be multiple organisers. This could really help the BDS.

i.e.

Rd1 - North England - Borderline Events or NDH
Rd2 - Scotland - SDA
Rd3 - North Wales - Borderline Events or Pearce
Rd4 - Southern England - Chris Roberts(Combe sydenham) or woodland riders (gawton) or ???
Rd5 - Scotland - SDA
Rd6 - Southern Wales - MIJ or Pearce

Could be a fresh start for SDA too these two big races and make the Scottish DH series smaller and more grassroots.

I raced downhill from 1996-2012 to a fairly decent level at regional/national races and thought I'd never quit the sport... For me there were 2 reasons for wrapping DH, time on the bike and variation of tracks. This isn't a slight on the SDA at all but I was bored of riding the same tracks year in, year out. That's not to say they weren't pro-active when it comes to obtaining new venues, I know for a fact that they did and still try to find possible new venues but for whatever reason they don't come to fruition. In terms of actual time on the bike, I wasn't overly keen on spending my hard earned cash on uplifts every week and was getting tired of pushing and sectioning trails. I had a trail bike which I was using a lot more and still had the urge to race so started enduro. I do miss smashing turns/jumps on the big bike though.

British Cycling involved in XC and DH both are on the ropes, Enduro isn't and is doing well... interesting.

British Cycling involved in XC and DH both are on the ropes, Enduro isn't and is doing well... interesting.

Enduro is doing well enough at grassroots and regional level, but Si Paton also pulled the plug on the BES earlier this year - if you remember?

So surely the correct inference to draw would be that national series are on the ropes?

At the moment the Redbull coverage of downhill world cup is its saviour, if they started covering EWS, it would really hurt D/H as a discipline and I think there's a good chance it'll go the way of 4x, still be there but more of a niche.
Enduro events and trail bike development are killing dh.

So surely the correct inference to draw would be that [s]national series are on the ropes[/s]Si Patton drove both series into the ground?

[quote=spooky211 ]I raced downhill from 1996-2012 to a fairly decent level at regional/national races and thought I'd never quit the sport... For me there were 2 reasons for wrapping DH, time on the bike and variation of tracks. This isn't a slight on the SDA at all but I was bored of riding the same tracks year in, year out. That's not to say they weren't pro-active when it comes to obtaining new venues, I know for a fact that they did and still try to find possible new venues but for whatever reason they don't come to fruition. In terms of actual time on the bike, I wasn't overly keen on spending my hard earned cash on uplifts every week and was getting tired of pushing and sectioning trails. I had a trail bike which I was using a lot more and still had the urge to race so started enduro. I do miss smashing turns/jumps on the big bike though.

My mate describes an SDA race as "a waste of an uplift day". You definitely get more bang for your buck in an enduro but the attraction of racing DH is totally different. Way more commitment to smash out the best possible race run.

For the SDA, I'd look to more of the grass roots element. Stuff like the Glencoe black isn't going to attract new or less experienced riders. Maybe some lower level events run on the likes of the red at Glencoe, Ae without The Elevator finish etc to try and bring new riders in. Limit who can take part such as no one with more than X amount of races under their belt.

The demise of the uplift at Inners and Ae will also have a massive detrimental effect on the Scottish scene. Nothing on the horizon to resurrect that as far as I've heard???

i think the demise of the BDS was focusing on the elite and forgetting it's the average joes that make up the numbers and therefore make it profitable.

I know the guys that run our local series (woodland riders racing) and whenever try and run the harder tracks the numbers are right down.

Si Patton drove both series into the ground?

[img] [/img]

The post I was answering said the national XC series is struggling too, has the sly bugger been running that without us knowing?

BES and BDS....do keep up Chap 😉

The demise of the uplift at Inners and Ae will also have a massive detrimental effect on the Scottish scene. Nothing on the horizon to resurrect that as far as I've heard???

Rowan sorrell and uplift hamsterely both were up and showed interest at inners, dunno about Ae, but its gone quiet since. Shame.

I race 3 or 4 enduros a year , tweedlove stuff and dunkeld and muckmeddon stuff , I'm crap . 3/4 of the way down the field but I love doing it . I think that's what enduro does so much better than downhill , is allow people like me to have a go . I would give downhill a go but to be honest I'm just not good enough to ride those courses and the fact I'm approaching 40 and have a family the consequences of getting it wrong on a downhill course are to much for me . Having said that the inners d/h stage at last years king of the hill was brilliant.
Also I wonder if more people find mountain biking a bit later in life and how many people start downhill in say their 30s . If your relatively new to biking enduro offers a much more accessible route into racing .

[quote=Nobeerinthefridge ]The demise of the uplift at Inners and Ae will also have a massive detrimental effect on the Scottish scene. Nothing on the horizon to resurrect that as far as I've heard???
Rowan sorrell and uplift hamsterely both were up and showed interest at inners, dunno about Ae, but its gone quiet since. Shame.

The barrier to the likes of Uplift Hamsterely etc is they will probably want a full time operation rather than just weekends, to make it financially viable. The problem that then creates is traffic volume on the road, wear and tear on the forest road plus the trails.

I really think it's due to trail bikes being better and giving people an alternative that is maybe better suited to their weekends.

When I raced I knew quite a lot of people and had a pretty wide circle of friends. No one I know now races DH. Pretty much everyone still rides but not DH.

Hoping that somehow we still produce talent for the world cups. But with this situation it's only going to get harder.

Inners and ae couldn't support a daily uplift IMO, but tbf Tally made a decent living from uplift Scotland over the years.

How did they get those Elephants to do that!!

I'm just not good enough to ride those courses and the fact I'm approaching 40 and have a family the consequences of getting it wrong on a downhill course are to much for me . Having said that the inners d/h stage at last years king of the hill was brilliant.

I think some people overestimate what a lot of DH courses are like 😉

http://www.descent-world.co.uk/2017/08/09/what-does-the-future-hold-for-national-and-regional-dh-mtb/

Interesting read , not sure about the social media stuff but the whole f1 comparisons not helping grass routes is an good point I think

Good article! Having never raced downhill (done about ten enduro races) or even attended a race, I don't know how accurate it is but it certainly makes sense. I'm sure if the rider on it had the balls to hit gap jumps my trail bike would be plenty fast on most UK DH courses! 😉

[quote> http://www.descent-world.co.uk/2017/08/09/what-does-the-future-hold-for-national-and-regional-dh-mtb/

Interesting read , not sure about the social media stuff but the whole f1 comparisons not helping grass routes is an good point I think

I can see the argument about social media, think it's definitely had an influence on the need to race to make it big in mountain biking.

That article brushes over the effect enduro has had in my opinion.

I live in the south west, so not a huge amount of DH venues within a days drive, however what venues there are, also tend to use the same tracks for Enduro races. To me (as I don't have a dh bike) I'm never going to bother racing DH when enduro gets me more time racing for a similar price.

I think some people overestimate what a lot of DH courses are like

But isn't that a big part of the problem then? DH is always portrayed as the most 'extreme' branch of MTB so you can't blame people for coming to the conclusion about the likely difficulty and danger of the tracks.

I've found this thread an interesting read despite only a passing interest in DH. It doesn't seem that surprising that it is struggling given that you not only need a niche bike to do it but a van to haul you up to the top. It's not exactly accessible in that format

I think some people overestimate what a lot of DH courses are like

Only been to a couple of DH races to spectate but they've all had chicken runs on the big features.

There has to be an element of that though - DH and its associated events like rampage have absolutely traded on the 'super max hardcore to the X-treme' element, waiting for the next big crash, so it's hardly surprising when people say 'Not for me thanks'

i wouldn't associate rampage with DH racing.

Rampage is not a DH event and therefore has nothing to do with it.

I just think people aren't prepared to risk their bodies for what is, ultimately, a hobby. Being successful at DH racing requires skill, fitness, but also a willingness to accept the consequences when it goes wrong, which it does for even the very best.

I just think people aren't prepared to risk their bodies for what is, ultimately, a hobby. Being successful at DH racing requires skill, fitness, but also a willingness to accept the consequences when it goes wrong, which it does for even the very best.

Having badly broken my ankle almost seven years ago (which is causing increasing problems) and almost broken my neck four years back, I've basically lost the ability to lay it all on the line. I ride with too much of a safety margin and it's only random factors that have me off, which made last year's enduro races rather frustrating in terms of times and position. I imagine DH requires even more risk taking to put down a good time.

I'm sure I read Steve Peat saying that when you're going at absolute full tilt race winning pace it's often not fun anymore.

See I do have a DH bike but like the specialist bit of kit it is there is a certain way to ride it or you're just slower than on a trail bike....my situation in other words!
I'm sure if I spent all year on it I'd get there but life's too short.

So, in light of these new BDS rules for single crown bikes I'm going to Langollen with my Trance SX 650b (160mm fork, 158mm rear conversion and 26 inch back wheel to drop the rear of the bike and further kick out the forks to slacken out the HA).... It'll either be a hoot and the saving grace of dwindling entries or riders like me on inappropriate bikes will die in a wreck on the hillside as we're woefully out of our depth!

I'll be reporting back after next weekend from my hospital bed.

Good on ya Deviant. Interested to hear how you get on.