[Closed] What happened to DH?

SDH changed to Ride.io

People who are not good enough for downhill or fast enough for xc now do enduro.

£90 to race BDS and you have to have a BC Racing licence, on the same tracks they've used for 5 years and all but one of the rounds is in North Wales (the other being Fort Bill).

I read earlier today that the cost of entries are putting a lot of people off. That, and Enduro races seem more plentiful and cheaper to enter.

There's only so many racers in the UK, they're a different breed to most riders - some of us muggles might dip a toe in with a mini race here or there but there's only a small number of racers.

I know it's a cliche but now we have Enduro, Britain is far better suited to Enduro - we only have a small number of proper DH tracks in the uk, lots of them only open for races and the odd uplift day - Enduro is far more accessible, you can ride your Enduro bike every day if you want, you can ride it to the shops if you like - whereas a DH is like owning an Elephant, very cool, but very few expensive and when do you get to use it?

If you had an elephant....what would you use it for?

Riding to the shops.

I think it's been made very clear that you can't ride an elephant to the shops, only on DH tracks 🙄

Parking would be atrocious .

not as bad as you think:

[img] [/img]

Oh, I feel a bit stupid now, no way would it get in the multi storey car parks.

Maybe I could ride it to work and leave it to roam around St Pauls?

I guess the expense is something but at the sensible end of the scale you can still get cheap DH bikes if you are prepared to slum it with a metal *gasp* frame. Besides, ten years ago Fabien Barel was riding a 7" DH bike, that can't be much off an enduro bike surely?

As for value, I was looking at that. Okay you get a few hours plus two runs on race day but call it a day and a half of uplift and it's not so bad.

SDA don't require a licence either.

P-Jay - as said the races were oversubscribed. Something clearly happened. Taylforth is probably pretty close tbh, SDH and Descent-World forums dying probably didn't help (though www.southerdownhill.com still takes you to ride.io).

I'm a former DH'er who gave up racing and riding before it was the in thing to do 🙄

It basically comes down to what P-Jay has said. Little bikes have got so much more capable over the past few years and they are much better suited to the terrain we have over here but here's a list of why I drifted away.

Races and associated costs of going away for the weekend started getting silly.

Travelling long distances to ride the few tracks worth riding got boring.

Uplift safety restrictions usually meant you didn't get enough time on the bike compared to the glory days of piling in a cattle wagon and smashing as many runs as you could.

Races seemed to get "more professional" as everyone wanted to be the next thing. Used to be a weekend away getting messed up then riding your bike with a hangover. Most people are in bed for 9 o'clock now.

Getting an SX Trail and realising I could still enjoy DH riding but peddle around aswell. Obviously as mentioned these bikes morphed into what we all ride now.

There's a few things from someone who lived the DH life for a good few years although I've still got hold of my DH bike just incase! 🙂

take it in to work with you - might stop people stating the bleeding obvious

(or else take it to the castle)

Oh I'd say the websites slowing down had nothing to do with it really. The enduro bike thing was well away by then taking people away from races and Facebook finished of most forums.

squirrelking - Member

I guess the expense is something but at the sensible end of the scale you can still get cheap DH bikes if you are prepared to slum it with a metal *gasp* frame. Besides, ten years ago Fabien Barel was riding a 7" DH bike, that can't be much off an enduro bike surely?

THis year's SDA at innerleithen was a 29er enduro bike clean sweep. Now OK, that's Innerleithen, it's "not proper downhill" but the "you need a dh bike" argument was always shite and these days it's even less true, you could say dh has less hardware restriction than enduro.

Truth is, it's in decline largely for the same reason XC went into decline- a lot of people used to do it because that was the racing that was out there. Once other options came along, it's not just that people went off to do something else, it's that it also made the existing events seem less desirable- when you have cheaper forms of racing, expensive forms seem more expensive, and so on.

Obviously I'm just one person, but I did a couple of SDAs and some local races, quite enjoyed it and would probably have carried on doing it, but then I started racing enduro and it just seemed better. More like my riding, more bang for your buck, (*), more riding for my day out. And most importantly, to me, less about the top boys- I usually place better in DH and XC than I do in enduro but I was happier being 260th out of 300 or whatever it was at the EWS, than being in the top third in the SDA but still out of touch of the winners- I felt more part of it and less like I was just there to make the race financially viable so that the real racers could play.

A couple of years earlier, there was no enduro scene, I'd have got into DH instead. If I was somewhere there was no DH scene, maybe I'd have got into XC. DH hasn't changed or got worse though.

(* I'm not saying DH is too expensive, I understand why it costs what it does- but it doesn't have to be too expensive, to be out-valued)

I think it's a shame, lots of people think it's a shame, but that's not going to get me to go and do it.

People who are not good enough for downhill or fast enough for xc now do enduro.

So, by that, DHers are folk that weren't fit enough for xc, and XCers were folk that were too shite to ride DH. You can make any of that shit sound plausible, but at the end of the day it's shite.

Trail/enduro bikes are now exceptionally capable, DH bikes are too one trick pony, hardly any actual ride time for your weekend are all affecting issues.

It is a shame, but given the amount of Brits racing at the top level. It's not just an issue in this country.

Distance, money and priority? Racing a dh series if you didn't live in Shropshire or Scotland was always hard costly work. Now you can race enduro closer to home, get the same atmosphere and ride the same bike you ride on the other weekends.

Peaty & Ratboy retired

andysredmini - Member

People who are not good enough for downhill or fast enough for xc now do enduro.

That's why Katy Winton, enduro podium-botherer, could turn up for an SDA round on an enduro bike and win- her first dh race ever. She didn't [i]quite[/i] get it, she was spotted riding up the hill instead of waiting for the bus.

Greg Minaar believed this line about enduro being for washed up downhillers, decided to do an EWS round, and got a bit upset when Fabien Barel overtook him midstage. Peaty wasn't quite paying attention at the time and ended up doing pretty much the same thing at the first tweedlove ews.

Speeder - Member
Peaty & Ratboy retired

DH is over, very over, no more.

Just a niche sport now.

Probably more insightful of the higher levels
https://www.morvelo.com/blog/privateer/
https://www.morvelo.com/blog/hometown-hero/

I know it's been a while since I was at a race

Its all your fault for not turning up. Now everyone else has copied you

Distance, money and priority? Racing a dh series if you didn't live in Shropshire or Scotland was always hard costly work. Now you can race enduro closer to home, get the same atmosphere and ride the same bike you ride on the other weekends

I was just going to post exactly this. Why travel to Wales or Scotland when you can race enduro much nearer to home?

I still love riding my DH bike, and places like Aston Hill and Rogate appear to be thriving. DH is far from being dead IMO.

Rogate thriving? Really? Every time i've been past, it's been dead. It's also garbage to ride these days.

As an Ex BDS racer, I and basically the entire riding group I rode with cumulatively reached the same opinion at the same time. Racing at Llangollen probably 5 years ago now, we timed a few things. I rode my bike for the sum total of about 30 minutes over the course of the weekend. I also spent nearly 12 hours stood in uplift queues.

The races are expensive now, at nearly £95 - the time on the bike is a joke.

Good race series's do well still - Pearce still sells out.

The BDS pitched itself as too Elite, it actually forgot about the hardcore racers, who provide the bulk of the income - we were the ones who paid to be there.

I still race DH, but I only race regional stuff, things I can enter on the day, and race on a trail bike. Having a DH bike in the south of England is a bit pointless these days. I think of the races I did, every podium I was on was made up of trail bikes.

The numbers make it look like it is dying (from a racing perspective, in the UK at least).

Our local series (woodland riders at tavi woodlands) sells out regularly. But it's one day, practice in the morning, no uplift.

Interestingly when they run races on the harder tracks they struggle for entries.

Given the comments above, how do the manufactures justify running DH teams then. The cost of a proper team and all the support that we see at the world events on Red Bull TV must be massive.

They cant sell many DH bikes to pay for all that.

Trimix, its more promoting a Brand as much as pure Dh bikes and its not just for the UK market, it gets broadcast globally.

Given the comments above, how do the manufactures justify running DH teams then. The cost of a proper team and all the support that we see at the world events on Red Bull TV must be massive.
They cant sell many DH bikes to pay for all that.

Same as F1 innit, Mercedes aren't in that game to try and sell F1 cars to the public. Similarly Specialized etc want you to see the brand and remember them when looking for your next bike regardless of the discipline youre thinking of.

My over-whelming memories of DH are just too much waiting, not enough riding. Every time I think about racing again I remember waiting in uplift queues, waiting for race runs, waiting for red flags to clear, etc at which point i think better of it

Rogate thriving? Really?

Rogate is a winter spot, its always been rubbish in the summer.

I think its partly enduro but also the rise in availability of uplift locations.

When you had to push your bike to the top every time you went riding the option of a Race with an uplift was exciting and worth paying for. Now I can go a DH venue, get on the weekend (or even weekday in some places) uplift for 1/3 of the cost, have a full days riding with barely a stop for lunch, ride different lines, have a laugh riding with mates or trying a full run. Its actually made having a Dh bike worth the cost (for me). I would only ever be a back marker at a race, and was seriously put off by event organisers marking the courses to suit to top 10%, so didnt race. Yes courses should be hard, but by making them so difficult its not fun and charging huge amounts to pay for live timing or large prize pots (both of which are of no interest to people like me) they lost a lot of the people who might have given it a go, and now they dont have a series at all.

I stopped racing any DH 4 years ago and have done a lot of Enduro since. This year I decided I was going to do the full SDA series. Went to the first round at Ae and managed to get 3 runs done in 4.5 hours because the uplift was slow, got fed up and went home.

You just get so much more bike time with Enduro, I could have done the whole SES route in the same time I got 3 runs in at Ae.

Not going to do anymore DH.

Always seemed like a LOT of money involved to get really good at DH. Don't most of the top guys practice a lot on MX as well to get used to the speed/handling?

Car manufacturers don't sell many F1 cars but still plow millions into running teams.

F1 Teams are fast expensive advertising hoardings, Most Car manufacturer's don't really care about the sport, outside of the handful supplying engines Fizzy drinks, banking and IT service sector organisations love slapping their logos on F1 cars as it fits a certain aspirational branding niche.

Similarly Pro' road cycling has as many, if not more non-cycling sponsors.

DH being a smaller Niche seems to be more of a focus of the cycling industry and cycling enthusiasts than something with more of a mainstream appeal.

And now Enduro is here, in all honesty it's a better fit for most "Normal" riders than DH ever was.

The bike you need is less 'Specialized' towards a specific racing format, the commitment of time and money can be as much or as little as you want the "Seriousness" that seems to have permeated DH and driven off the casual rider/racers doesn't seem to be there (yet?)... all the things that encourage and grow accessibility are there with Enduro and falling back in DH.

Of course modern Enduro owes a lot to DH, the "gravity-fed" racing that we've seen over the last 25 odd years has driven the changes in bikes and course/trail design that eventually made Enduro a credible discipline. Without DH there would be no Enduro today, unfortunately I think it will be left behind now to a certain extent and that is a shame in many ways...

But then lots of us who've dabbled with DH in the past, are now less likely to stump up the time and money to relive their DH glory days when there mortgages to be payed, stalled wage growth, a national consumer debt crisis looming and plenty of fun to be had on more sensible trail/enduro type bikes...

I agree with the uplift thing.Revolution Bike Park has 80 places at the weekend and pretty much full both days (and friday too but is usually quieter).If you've got the stamina you can get 15+ runs in,on 8 different trails!! For 33 quid!
And BPW is booked up months ahead.

Part of the issue with moelfre being cancelled is that it is a week before mont sainte Anne World Cup and most riders who will be going to this ( the elites anyway) and with the time difference most fly out that weekend poor planning on si Paton's side

Ok, in an attempt to offer something new to the thread...

[u]i[/u] stopped racing dh because I got old and broken, ran out of money to spend on that kind of thing (mortgage), and honestly found myself more excited about a weekend bimbling around mellow trails with msWife, than sliding down a stream on my face.

But, I'm an old git, i'm supposed to **** off and make room for the kids. 5000 years ago I'd have been eaten by bear by now, I'm happy enough that the 21st century equivalent is spending my time at garden centres.

So, where [i]are[/i] the kids? - what are they doing instead of racing dh? Making sick edits? I suspect that this isn't the best place to find the answer...

Interesting what you say about "where are the kids?"
Most DH bikes I see these days are being ridden by "yoofs" around town.
"Gansta DH bike, innit..."

I can see the link between F1 and WC DH. From a completely business point of view Minnar, Gwin and Hart aren't their to sell V10s, Tues and Summums, the market is tiny, they're there to sell piles of trail bikes from the same brand which is all well and good, a halo series to act at both R&D platform and advertising hoarding - but what to do when he current crop retires

Speaking personally, I'm someone who owns a downhill bike and and enduro bike. I can get down most stuff..

I've never entered an enduro event but am tempted, I would come near the end, I may even come last, but I don't think I'd be embarrassed as such.

I however would not even consider entering a dh race... I just feel that I would be so far off the pace it would be shameful.

I just don't think your average mtber has the skill set to tackle a dh track at race pace, which I think would put many people off. And when enduro is far more accessible, and people now have a choice, they will obviously gravitate towards something more suited to their skills.

Mmmm, what happened to DH !!!!
Ye auld '97 Ae DH track is now being utilised as an "Enduro" trail. The Ae '97 trail came about because FCS became "nervious" of the DH "races" being held at Mabie. Those races had escalated from those of u riding hardtails of various designs. I was riding a Trek 8000!!!! Mate was on a 3spd Strummy Archer Raliegh 8)

tpbiker - Member
Speaking personally, I'm someone who owns a downhill bike and and enduro bike. I can get down most stuff..

I've never entered an enduro event but am tempted, I would come near the end, I may even come last, but I don't think I'd be embarrassed as such.

I however would not even consider entering a dh race... I just feel that I would be so far off the pace it would be shameful.

Never considered entering a DH race.
After consulting an "Enduro" race organiser who persuaded me that the event was definitely aimed at the average rider I placed an entry. My one and only entry............. utter bo.llocks revthe "our event is aimed at the Enduro beginner". Event the locals I encountered were mumpping&moaning 🙄

 

What happened to DH? - Too many people ending up in wheelchairs?

In my experience, DH seems to be doing well in terms of uplift days. Every one I go to has loads of people, young and old, on DH bikes, getting loads of runs in.

Also, yes, most DH tracks can be ridden on an'enduro' bike (there was a guy on and One One Inbred at Stinog) but run after run I would rather be bashing my DH bike down stiniog rather than my Bronson.

I know that the BDS has had its BC funding slashed. Si has posted, a couple of times I believe, a breakdown of where the money goes and it looks like an expensive do. He's certainly not making much - if anything.

Lastly, racing DH is expensive. No doubly. But there's no point in talking about how much time you get on your bike for £90. For £30 you can get loads of track time on most DH tracks the weekend prior to a race. You're paying £90 to be the fastest man or woman in your category down a hill on the day. On the other hand, paying £90 to get rinsed is not much fun and I wouldn't want to do it.

I feel for the rapid guys and girls who simply cannot afford to travel the country to race because I understand that 'racers' are a rare breed and it would suck not being able to afford to do the things you're born to do. I just hope they are having fun in the woods.

Also, yes, most DH tracks can be ridden on an'enduro' bike (there was a guy on and One One Inbred at Stinog) but run after run I would rather be bashing my DH bike down stiniog rather than my Bronson.

Yep. Everyone I know who owns both types of bikes firmly believes that there is nothing like a DH bike for a DH track. As someone who spent 9 years in a row riding the Whistler bike park on "enduro" bikes, only to switch to DH bikes in the last few years, I can categorically state that there is nothing like a DH bike for DH tracks, IMO.

I think competing in DH requires a level of commitment that most people can't afford, both financially and physically, these days: if you get injured, and have to be off work for a prolonged period of time, it could have serious implications. I remember when i got knocked off my road bike, my company were talking about suing the driver if I had to be off for any period of time. Imagine if that happened due to my own actions?

As a result, I think DH riding on a casual basis, is still relatively alive, but competing: Not so much, unless you are at a level where giving up the day job is an option.

That's why Katy Winton, enduro podium-botherer, could turn up for an SDA round on an enduro bike and win- her first dh race ever. She didn't quite get it, she was spotted riding up the hill instead of waiting for the bus.

Are you referring to one of the final rounds of the SDA at Inners back in 2011?
I remember that well... Scotland's leading female DH racer (at the time) was not very happy being beaten by her chirpy wee XC pal.
Interestingly a young Kenta Galagher also raced that event (I seem to remember the two of them had a break in their XC race schedules so were doing it for a bit of fun). Kenta podiumed in Senior. Obviously enjoyed himself and has now left XC and gone on to become a top 20 threat at WC level DH.

FWIW Will Longden also used to ride up at innerleithen races back when he was the third highest ranked Brit DH rider and I saw Tracy Moseley do the same at Midlands DH races. And no one "got" DH more than those two.

They may both be classed as gravity sports but other than that Enduro to DH isn't such a simple (or fair) comparison to make.
They're actually fairly different types of race. At the top of their game competitors in both are extremely fit (but in slightly different ways).
DH at the top level is all about piecing together that one perfect run by practising, analysing and dissecting the track into micro sections. Learning and riding the line choices you've made. piecing it all together and when the beeps start trying to put down as close to a 100% run as you can manage without blowing up or crashing. (World champs even more so)
I'm no expert but isn't Enduro (meant to be) raced after only minimal practice? over multiple and far longer stages. This must result in each stage having to be ridden far more within your limits than a DH race run. Especially as you're looking for consistency over the multiple stages? In some ways it "could" be a far purer racing format the DH. (if the courses really were only pre-ridden during official practice - which we all know they'r not) Unfortunately the format to me.. just kills flair, flamboyancy and risk taking. Pretty much all the things that drew me towards DH in the first place.
Watching Sam Hill ride that far under his former limit kinda saddens me.

Personally I struggle to understand why folk will pay £60 to basically ride an XC route you could any other weekend (or the same evening if they really wanted) ride for free. Over paying £15 more to have 2 days of uplifts and ride a properly marshalled/Medic'd track in a environment you'd learn and progress faster on. But then I struggle to understand a lot of the choices enthusiasts in modern cycling make.

It's a real shame for the SDA and BDS but if they're losing money they really have no choice but to cancel events and cut their losses. Sad times. (but still have the great memories)

A major thing is just the cost of the bikes these days.

When i started riding in 2005 ish, you could get a freeride or DH bike for about 1500-1800 quid, and then pick up an old Coyote Dh second hand for about 300. As a youngster it made it almost accessible.

Now there arent many companies making "cheap" DH rigs, and the secondhand market isn't what it used to be (as far as I can tell).

smidge over at 2k
https://www.yt-industries.com/uk/detail/index/sArticle/1255/sCategory/78
stuff is there and the direct sales will bring it in close, I think one of the major things posted above is how easy it is to get uplift now at places like rev or BPW I remeber racing was really an uplift day at the level I was racing at. Alps were further away it seemed and racing gave you that option to ride.

?..I struggle to understand why folk will pay £60 to basically ride an XC route you could any other weekend (or the same evening if they really wanted) ride for free. Over paying £15 more to have 2 days of uplifts and ride a properly marshalled/Medic'd track in a environment you'd learn and progress faster on. But then I struggle to understand a lot of the choices enthusiasts in modern cycling make.

Enduro routes are hardly 'xc', often, enduro events will use old dh tracks for the [i]easy[/i] bits.

As for the why, as an also-ran punter, 3 or 4 different tracks is better than 1.

https://www.yt-industries.com/uk/detail/index/sArticle/1255/sCategory/78

Hmm that's quite nice actually haha.

I agree on the uplift availability thing.

And some enduro race tracks are pretty rowdy, too many armchair pinners talk codswallop me thinks.

I'd definitely say a combo of Enduro and bike parks killed DH at some levels. I used to race DH, I now race Enduro, I prefer it. Sometimes its a timed stage on an XC track, sometimes its a new track, sometimes its an old or current DH track, often its a combo of the 3. Its generally a bit cheaper than DH though, gives you way more time in the saddle, and its just more [i]fun[/i] IMHO. Also my enduuurrrro bike happily rides around my local woods, trail centres, BPW, Antur etc. whereas a DH bike likes, well, to ride DH. For alot of people having two bikes is either too costly or takes up too much room, so enduro was always going to win in the long run.

I think the bike park was the death knell though, why would I pay to race a DH race when I can pay a fraction of the price and ride on my schedule at a bike park?

I would also think the changes to the UCI rules have hit the national series a bit. People used to chase points on the BDS to get a WC place at somewhere like Fort Bill, for the experience, for the fun, so you can say you raced a WC maybe. Since the fields got chopped, thats basically no longer going to happen unless you're already pretty much a full time sponsored rider, so why bother?

Compare the number of threads for the DH WC that just finished in one of the closest and open seasons to date vs the multiple threads on the front page for a road bike race.

On a mountain biking forum as well.

I see the argument that enduro could be a ripoff as well. £60 odd for a timer and some tape? You could Strava it easily enough (assuming signal availability). Just like DH, you're only paying to be fastest on the day so I don't see how you can argue one for one side without noting that the same argument applies against.

As for parks and such, up here, not so much. Scotland has LOADS of DH but very little choice in terms of uplift. You have just FW and Glencoe right now. Uplift Scotland have closed down and until someone picks up the tender Inners is out. Ae hasn't had an uplift in donkeys. Racing is about the only chance you get to ride a lot of tracks either with uplift or at all.

TBH £80 isn't that bad for two days (Tally charged £35 a day) and you would spend the same on food, fuel and accommodation to get to an enduro so that argument doesn't hold much water either (assuming you're racing regionally as opposed to nationally).

Bike? Commencal Supreme V.3 €2299 or a Norco Aurum for £2099. People manage to spend the same on n+1 fat bikes, gravel bikes, woodburners and whatever other stuff is in fashion. You can get a lot better second hand as well, frankly only a bloody idiot would go out and spend £3k+ on a new bike (never mind a frame!) unless they were at the top of their game. But you don't have to be to enjoy it.

Yeah I get that there are huge swathes of the country with no DH and I get the arguments coming from that perspective but seriously, 22 entrants from the WHOLE of Scotland? You must be kidding me?

Compare the number of threads for the DH WC that just finished in one of the closest and open seasons to date vs the multiple threads on the front page for a road bike race.

On a mountain biking forum as well.

Didn't want to go there but... ...yeah...

Bike? Commencal Supreme V.3 €2299 or a Norco Aurum for £2099. People manage to spend the same on n+1 fat bikes, gravel bikes, woodburners and whatever other stuff is in fashion.

That is true, but you have to fill a field in order to make it viable, and in order to do that, you need to cater to everyone, those who have a woodburner, gravel bike and 10 others, and those who have 1 bike. Enduro caters to the 1 bike crowd as much as the 10 bike crowd, and thats (probably) why its doing ok. I would also say thats why the 'elite' enduro series have gone pop over the last few years - over reliance on big fields that don't show when the pricing/overall costs go up too much, and dare I say it the tracks get too hard.

Intetesting what you say about Scotland though... different story I guess, or was a reasonable contingent coming from south of the border. Also, entries are a domino effect I reckon. I'd probably not raced much top end DH if I didn't have friends that did. If they left the scene, I wouldn't have gone. As it was we all kind of left at the same time as kids etc. came around, but it was a big factor for me. 2 or 3 people stopping racing would have been enough to stop me too.

It has priced itself out the market; it is no longer the big thing about mountain biking; there is more options now; there are things perceived to be better value for money; mountain biking constantly evolves - 30 years ago it was 1 bike with Xc, dh, uphill and trials, 20 years ago it was massive XC fields, 10 years ago it was DH, now it is Enduro.

lol and as if on cue I spot this:

http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/psa-orange-five

Same price as a DH bike. So how's that "out the market"?

Judging by how many triple clamp, full on DH bikes I've seen the last week, they're all out in the Alps, so leaving no spare DH bikes to ride back in the UK. 😆

It's just too hard and I'm too old!

Two pages and only one passing reference to STRAVA?

As others said, why pay lots of money to be the mid pack cash-cow on some remote hillside when your local trail can now provide the same buzz for free?

The trails themselves seem as busy as ever.

I have a DH bike mainly for uplift days; modern trail and enduro bikes are massively capable and can pretty much handle the Uak, but there is something hugely fun about battering down a trail on a big bike.

I've done a few local races with no uplift; great fun but even at that level there's a big gap between dudes like me who have a big bike and do the race for a bit of fun and the dudes who are actually quick. I guess the gulf is even bigger once you get to SDS / BDS level. I wouldn't enter a bigger race, because I'd be a back marker.

Never done a DH race. Apart from not really having the skills, I just know that all the hanging around would do my nut.

Enduro is much more appealing - a decent ride that involves some racing.

I guess there are more people than ever taking part in gravity racing right now, if you put DH and enduro together?

Latest plea for SDA entries;

Screw enduro (well racing in the UK generally, there's always exceptions), is pretty much timed xc trails to me, basically if you pedal everywhere you win.

In my limited racing experience, prefer a dh race.

But I'm no racer, my attraction to either is pretty minimal.

I'm really appreciating the likes of 50to01 are influencing things, just go out and enjoy your bike, it's not serious, a mtb is a toy to go out playing on. Can see the yoof headed more this way too, leading to all forms of racing declining, which is cool with me.

Any form of Willy waving or ego massaging from what you achieve on a bike is ridiculous, that's the reason I see people racing or using Strava for a lot of the time.

Screw enduro (well racing in the UK generally, there's always exceptions), is pretty much timed xc trails to me, basically if you pedal everywhere you win.

I'd like to see you pedalling down prospacker after it's rained for 3 days, and 200 folk have been down it before you.

You big riding god you.

Screw enduro (well racing in the UK generally, there's always exceptions), is pretty much timed xc trails to me, basically if you pedal everywhere you win.

I think there are a number of factors.
There are still plenty of people that are into DH but the quality of long travel trail bikes has probably reduced the number of people at the less serious end as they are so much less restricted in terms of access of where and what you can ride and have fun on.
Another issue is probably the entry requirements of the BDS, while its good to have the premier series in the country more elite focused, it is at the expense of a lot of the people who make up and support the scene. These are the people who actually pay for their own entries and kit and also come to enjoy the event.
The fact that there are no longer UCI points available, means that there also also no incentive for mid pack elites to be there either, if there is a field stacked full of top World Cup riders competing, then they have no chance of getting the points they need to race a World Cup. They are better off going abroad to race and at least get the chance of riding in some decent weather.
The BDS has had some bad luck with weather conditions, especially at some of the Scottish races, which has had an effect, with people not keen on driving all the way to Fort William to get hardly any runs.
There has been a slight downturn in popularity overall and even the Pearce series which sold out in 3 minutes two years ago has entries available for the last three rounds.
The (BDS) races are expensive but with the ever increasing amount of safety regs and requirements that the riders see as essential, I don't see how they could be any cheaper. Riders always want more uplift vehicles, more bike washes etc, etc but never want to pay any more for them.
I personally think that they have done a great job recently and provided great events at a reasonable value for money.

to me i think it's the skill and close times and danger that put a lot of dh. i think dh is still the pinnacle of mountain biking and watch all the races on red bull. but i don't have a dh bike anymore and wouldn't even consider entering as there were always the few that were so far ahead of the field, it was just demoralising and pointless. enduro is a better form of xc and with the length and variation of tracks the times can shuffle from stage to stage, its like a mini series in one event. the atmosphere at races is better and is within the skill level and danger side that a lot more people are comfortable with. I just hope there will always be the young talent coming through in dh to keep the wc alive.

deanfbm - Member

Screw enduro (well racing in the UK generally, there's always exceptions), is pretty much timed xc trails to me, basically if you pedal everywhere you win.

I think respectfully that's because you have no idea what you're talking about. Ask yourself, what's the difference between riding this in a dh race or an enduro? (I've raced it in an SDA race and an EWS stage, when the inners dh was the easiest stage of the day)

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what's the difference between riding this in a DH race or an enduro? (

For you personally? From the sounds of things. Possibly nothing.
But do you honestly think Leov's EWS time would be the same on that stage as it would had it been an identically taped UCI World Cup held on the same track?

Shitey sloggy/uphill sections as part of a gravity event aside. The biggest difference between an Enduro and DH race as I see it is utilisation of allotted practice.
Traditionally Downhill racing is meant to be all down to that one final run. Over the course of a DH event you have a set time to scope out the taped course beforehand, decide line choices/options, ground consistency. risk Vs glory etc. Set time to practice lines, confirm ground consistency/condition, make equipment choice etc. piece it all together and memorise the run you'd like to put down as perfectly as possible when the beeps start.
Enduro is clearly more about consistency over the various stages. Yes. the format is somewhat similar. Only minimal practice *seems* to be the order of the day where allotted practice times allow not much more than a sighting run of each stage to learn the stages, note tricky sections, where to rest/push/stay safe etc. to prepare yourself for race day.

Those differences probably sound quite subtle don't they? The way they play out can actually be pretty HUGE.
DH is all about fractions of a second throughout one run. Enduro (naturally) is about Seconds per stage. Perhaps minutes per race.
They are different disciplines and as such require a different approach. This to me is so obvious I'm not even sure why anyone argues about it.

Out of interest. Where did you place in each discipline on that "easy" stage in each race?

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* for the purpose of the point I'm trying to explain here. I've chosen to ignore the fact a large portion of the UK field head out sneakily practising (or even built) the race stages weeks/months beforehand.

Easier to fit in trips to the burger van between runs at DH races too

I think everyone is pretty much on the money here... the rise of enduro etc etc but there are a few other bits to point out...

- When we started racing 4 years ago all the big teams used to turn up to the BDS with their trucks etc. In that time DH has gone global & for the top level riders it's now all about the world cups. Now, you're lucky to get one or two teams at a National. This kinda happened at the same time Si put the price up & tried to steer it towards being a more elite series so the 2 things worked against each other. Feel sorry for Si on this as he was trying to do the right thing.

- Moelfre cancelled because of numbers... Have heard that's a smokescreen for something else. Not saying numbers were great but...

- Rumours abound that there will be big changes at the end of the season...

Does anyone think the lack of UCI points on offer has a bearing? (or has that changed)

It was pretty sad for me as a fan to see someone like Steve Peat having to go abroad to try to get enough points to race, it must be pretty disheartening for the young and keen riders dreaming of one-day being the next Danny Hart or Rachel Atherton knowing however well they do, they’ll need to find even more money and time just to get to another national series to hope to get some points?

I've not read all of this, but from the perspective of someone who's been mountain biking longer than some of the people in my team at work have been alive, my view is:
1. It's cyclical. 20 years ago everyone raced XC as it was where you met fellow riders, rode places you wouldn't normally and it was the heart of the scene. In the 90's this focus moved to DH, it was on TV briefly and is/was the pinnacle of the sport. Now Enduro is where people are looking.
2. The internet. Related to the above, no-one needs to go to races to feel part of a scene as it exists on places like here and Pink Bike. You can find new trails online, talk to people, exchange bike advice, etc.
3. Uplifts. I'm not sure a lot of people (myself included) ever really wanted to race DH, more they just didn't want to push up hill and wanted to ride on a nice track. Now you can do that at an uplift day, you'll get more rides, you can talk to other people and you can check your times on Strava.
4. Enduro. I've raced XC in the past as that was all that was there. Then I raced DH as I didn't want to race XC, now if I was racing it'd be Enduro as that to be is just a competitive version of the riding I, and most people I know, do. DH is now the preserve of specialists, "normal" riders won't enter the races like they used to.
5. Kit. As it's now the preserve of specialists the perception is that you need lots of kit and expensive bikes. I raced DH on a hardtail with bigger rotors and a cheap full face, this was entirely normal for a lot of the field. Now, rightly or wrongly, the view is that you need an 8" travel beast, full body suit and 3 different compounds of tyres.
6. The tracks. Everyone says they want hard tracks but what that means is the locations are limited and "normal" riders can't/don't want to ride them. Yes, harder tracks help the best get better but it also excludes a lot of people.

Bit of a brain dump but there may be some sense in there.

TBH Lunge I think that's a pretty good summary of all the factors affecting modern UK-DH racing...

£90 to race BDS and you have to have a BC Racing licence

gwurk - Member

But do you honestly think Leov's EWS time would be the same on that stage as it would had it been an identically taped UCI World Cup held on the same track?

Um, no. What has that got to do with the point though?

I think respectfully that's because you have no idea what you're talking about. Ask yourself, what's the difference between riding this in a dh race or an enduro? (I've raced it in an SDA race and an EWS stage, when the inners dh was the easiest stage of the day)

Be fair though, the are the exceptions rather than the norm, I'm down sawth, there's the southern enduros, fod, Welsh gravity, they're all loosely trail center or trail center based, yes there's always that one section or even one run that's tricky, but easily cancelled out if you soon like buggery on the straight forward stuff. Though heard the last southern enduro was tricky all around.

I'm extra cynical because I really don't enjoy racing, embodies "good riders are the fast riders" and breeds mediocre head down pedalling looking at the giant sat nav checking heart rates and jizzing all over Strava data in some enduro goggles.

If you're out smiling, doing what you fancy, then you're winning.