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Suddenly got the urge to try something different /add to my collection . I'd like to find a classic dutch bike ...the real sit upright classic model but know little about these. Anyone on here delved into that world ? Suggestions of classic models would be appreciated . Also ..I always wondered ...has anyone ridden any decent inclines on such machines ..I can't imagine even with low gears the position would allow steep hills without a struggle although I realize they weren't designed for that .
In theory an more upright position is actually better for power output - the biomechanics are better if shoulders hips and feet are close to a straight line - in practice you will be using slightly different muscles so may take some getting used to. The reason for the bent over position used on road bikes is wind resistance not pedalling efficiency
Do you want the retro style bike or the modern euro tourer? Both have similar riding positions but look very different. I like the modern style bikes - hub gears, enclosed chains, integrated dynamo lights etc
how about an elephant bike, a recycled old Royal Mail bike
https://www.cycleofgood.com/elephant-bike/
edit: wow, they used to be £250 a few years back!!!
My OH has a Peugeot bike that has Dutch style geometry but with aderailleur. I absolutely love riding it and it'll get up any road or off road hill (I've put gravel tyres on it)
In theory an more upright position is actually better for power output – the biomechanics are better if shoulders hips and feet are close to a straight line – in practice you will be using slightly different muscles so may take some getting used to. The reason for the bent over position used on road bikes is wind resistance not pedalling efficiency
My wife has one that I've pratted around on. A modern versions rather than a classic aesthetically. The only addition to TJs thoughts there is that the front end does feel very light and loose, especially going up hill. Sat very upright there is very little weight over the front wheel and add an incline and centre of gravity is further over the rear end. It works, just feels a bit odd. If you are a real geek (that's me) and take a proper look at your average knackered dutch bike knocking around Amsterdam they all seem to have virtually bald rear tyres and mint front tyres from all the wear being on the back end.
The classic old version might give you some grief if going up hills is a thing simply because I think most that had gears were 3 speed without much range so even if you were able to change sprocket and chainring size to handle lumpier terrain you might find you were very undergeared on the flat.
It's a lovely concept though and something I wish more urban commuters would embrace in the UK.
I took a good look at then Swapfiets in Amsterdam a couple of years ago. Even by the standards of all the other weird looking bikes they are odd. Really short, hugely slack angles, and so much backsweep on the handlebars, it's effectively a tiller. Not sure they would actually be nice to ride.
I thought this place was Single Track World, not random shopper bike planet
I’ve ridden them quite a bit in the Netherlands and in general they are 3 gears and heavy. Absolutely fine to get about town as designed (I really like them for their intended use) but you know about it on the short climbs over the dual carriageways etc. I think they could get pretty tiresome pretty quickly depending on where you live in the UK. My Dutch colleague who lives here has something a bit more middle of road for her UK cycling (more like a classic UK tourer). She wouldn’t have a classic Dutch step through bike here. Unless you live in central York, London or Norfolk…
have a look at Gazelle bikes website. some of the new modern roadsters are awesome.
everyone needs a town bike for shopping and pub trips.
Even by the standards of all the other weird looking bikes they are odd
It looks really wrong, but although it was very different, it wasn't so bad to ride. Really wouldn't want to tackle any hills though, even getting over some bridges was a challenge.
Ha! TBH it looks even worse with someone sitting on it! But I defer to your actual experience. 😁
(to my eye that actually looks like you're trying to hang onto it and not slide off the back).
How about a hercules? IIRC india made copies of classic raleigh roadsters - they even have rod brakes!
Whilst hardly 'classic' E-Dutch bikes are quite possibly the most civilsed way to travel in an urban envionment that I have yet discovered.
All the comfort of the riding position with none of the slog and being to ride up hills in civvies without getting sweaty, they're marvelous things.
We have a Ridgeback electron that was bought for my Wife but I use it all the time with the saddle up as it's just so gosh darn fun and convenient.
In my experience, Dutch bikes are best kept to the Netherlands. The weight, gearing and geometry really doesn't work well for hills. I also find them quite uncomfortable as the position is too upright for me.
It's not Dutch, but it's the same trad style, but we have one of these:
It is genuinely one of the funnest bikes I've ever ridden, and insanely practical around town.
We've now moved to the top of a whacking great hill, so I'm tempted to buy an electric conversion kit for it.
If you are a real geek (that’s me) and take a proper look at your average knackered dutch bike knocking around Amsterdam they all seem to have virtually bald rear tyres and mint front tyres from all the wear being on the back end.
Sure they weren't coaster brakes which are dead easy to lock even unintentionally.
I’m tempted to buy an electric conversion kit for it.
Her. If ever there was a bike that needed gendering, that's the one.
Her. If ever there was a bike that needed gendering, that’s the one.
Ha, that's not actually quite the right picture, it actually looks like this 🙂
I had a Pashley Roadster for a year or 2, similar to a Dutch bike but British 😉
With a modern 3-speed Sturmey Archer hub it was fine around here where it's usually somewhat hilly, even with loads of shopping or a child in the seat.
Seems hard work at first but your legs quickly get used to it, makes you better on the mtb as well!
I could get up this (steepest hill in the area) easily enough, though wouldn't want to do something much longer at that incline.
I can answer this. Bought a Batavus Personal Deluxe years ago from classifieds for utility use. Used it in principally hilly country which seems counterintuitive, and is. It is three speed and I changed the chainring and rear sprocket to winch hills.
It looked weird. It weighed a tonne. I was coming from a Kona Ute (which was just not working for heavy loads/cargo in general) so the bery non-MTB Dutch bike with it’s gadgets, dynamo hub/always on lights, stepthru, locks, 26er wheels, full steel guards and bombproof rear rack was something different entirely.
But I love/d it. Everything just worked so smoothly. All the finishing kit was top notch. Entirely changed my attitude to urban cycling/relaxed riding. A stepthru frame is a must IMO. You can wear anything you want, make as many stops as you like, load up heavy cargo and just breeze into setting off, even on an incline.
I also learned that they are not just ‘upright’ they are also slightly crank-forward, which makes for a very relaxed position, effectively lowering your seat-height while maintaining leg-extension/pedalling efficiency. You sort of hang back from the high swept bars, beach-cruisery fashion.
As for hills I found myself heaving up them out of the saddle, in winch mode. My chest somewhere between the bars! Nice and slowly. Swooping downhills was a joy. As were flats. Climbing was just ‘different’, no better or worse as long as you have the right granny ring/sprocket combo
All in all, the points I wouldn’t change:
Stepthru
Internal gear
Dynamo
Feet-forward geo
Full guards
Integral locks
Bulletproof balloon tyres
What I would change:
Steel frame for alu. I have no dry storage and the poor thing finally succumbed to rust after decade or more of living outside. It needs a major rebuild and rust treatment if I can save it.
I miss riding it and would have another in a hearbeat. Talking of heartbeats I soon noticed that any stress levels and anxiety would appear to float away as soon as I was on it.
Gazelle or Batavus would be my choice.
https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/comfiest-bike/#post-10582119
Cheeky gravel biking the SWCP was interesting 😎
I recently built the bike in the post linked below up specifically to be comfortable around town. As a few have said on this thread, riding a bike like this is a completely different experience than the 'sport' cycling that most of us are used to.
singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/shoppingbiketrackworld/#post-12075187
never mind hills, what about headwinds?
Unless you live in... Norfolk
Laughs quietly at the thought that Norfolk is flat!
Even iOne thing I found I did more of on the Dutch bike was winter riding, specifically errands/local city-runs/grocery-shopping. With pogies installed and whatever winter clothing I fancied, I’d actually look forward to stepping on the bike even in mad weather, it’s so stable and no-fuss. And the weight makes a mockery of wind 🤣
If I can’t save the old Personal Bike then will be looking at something like the Gazelle Citygo step-through or maybe some other Dutch e-bike.
My Dutch wife brought her old single speed Gazelle over from the Netherlands when we first moved in together - however this was in very flat and cycle friendly Cambridge so it was ideal. It was the only bike we had there that was never stolen as they weren't very trendy 25 years ago.
After we moved to Surrey a few years later, I used it to commute about 4 hilly miles to work wearing a suit. It was OK in that it kept my clothes clean with a full chain case, mudguards, rack etc but obviously not ideal in the gearing department.
One thing I remember was it had massive wheels which you couldn't get tyres for in the UK but that did make it fun on the descents!
Gave it away when we bought our first flat as there was nowhere to store it and they aren't easy to haul up 2 flights of stairs
how about an elephant bike, a recycled old Royal Mail bike
We have one (bought when they were £250). It's not comparable to a Dutch bike and I would guess weighs about twice as much.
Laughs quietly at the thought that Norfolk is flat!
It is if you live in West Yorkshire!
Also, having done quite a lot of fieldwork in Norfolk, it is also flat is you call a feature a such-and-such hill on the map, and it is 30 m above sea level!
I give you it isn't the Netherlands. One of my Dutch colleagues posted a 85 mile ride on Strava at the weekend - with 510 foot of climbing!!
That bike looks quite small for you? Not saying it is it could be the angle of pic?
I found that having a massive dutch utility bike was preferable to a trad one. I used to have 1930s Dutch style police bike and it was OK but felt ‘compact’ and a bit light at the front. This Batavus is 23cm centre crank to top of seat tube, I’m around 5’9” so it’s about a size up from my usual, yet feels exactly right. It also feels about 6-7 feet long, and the seat-tube angle redefines ‘relaxed’! My elbows aren’t tucked back, arms are mostly extended, wide and relaxed. Until climbing, then everything changes. No seated just honking over the front wheel. It remains steady and on course on even the steepest hills here. Sometimes quicker to get off and walk. Of all the many types of bikes I’ve owned and ridden over the years it feels by far the most like a car-replacement. Yet inexplicably zen. It also wins no brownie/hip/gender points for style, so will likely (hopefully) remain unstolen forever. The perfect town/errand/local trip bike, IME. I have lighter bikes for quicker/longer journeys but this thing carries 30kg (plus my 100kg) with ease and supreme comfort. Most I’ve done is 20 miles loaded round trips town/rural lanes/city. Wouldn’t fancy going much further unless I’d got a lot of time to burn and a beer-garden stop.
That bike looks quite small for you?
When set up as intended with a lower stem and flat bars it's a bit big, if anything. If it was a 'proper' Dutch bike the seat would be further back, I guess. And Dutch bike frames are huge. It's been an interesting experiment in geometry.
23cm23in Am not a gnome)
In my experience, Dutch bikes are best kept to the Netherlands.
This. They are fine for short journeys on flat bike paths, but dreadful for anything else really.
Laughs quietly at the thought that Norfolk is flat!
Norfolk, earlier:
In my experience, Dutch bikes are best kept to the Netherlands.
I mwet a chap who cycled his singlespeed trad dutch bike from the Netherlands to northern Norway and back with huge luggage - including track pump. He must have had 30 or 40 kg of luggage
Its just a different mindset and different muscle groups
while I don't have a dutch bike at one point my commuter was set up with mary bars about 6" above the seat - no problems on hills at all
The UK is the outlier here - rest of europe high bar tourers are the norm
My wife brought her Gazelle build "Old Dutch" Oma back with her from Amsterdam when she moved back and it's great. It's 3 speed and coaster braked with a chain guard so about as low maintenance as it's possible to get. It does get less use than it used to now we've got kids but it's getting on for 20 years old and still looks pretty fresh for a bike that's used most days and sees a dribble of chain oil once a year (if that). It's had a single new rear tyre in that time and that's about the only maintenance I've had to do on it.
The riding experience is err leisurely but I wouldn't recommend it for hills. It's very much geared for the flat and while it's lower geared than my 3 speed commuter, it is a bit high for even the small hills we have in Cheltenham. It's just a bit of a slog uphill. Downhill with the weight (50lbs + panniers) it's about the most fun thing you can ride down the hill INTO town though.
There's not much to be lost by picking up a 2nd hand one and giving it a go.
My daughter had a Gazelle Dutch Bike that she used in Uni in Cardiff which is mainly flat.
It was great to ride anywhere but steep hills. Smooth, comfy and fun. It just didn’t have the gears for the hills round Gower so I sold it when she finished uni.
If I lived somewhere flat I’d get one. An electric version may work well.
Incidently, I understand that the ‘Dutch Bikes’ and indeed Indian and Chinese flying pigeon bikes were originally copied from traditional British bikes (I may be wrong). They are in effect original bikes as bikes were first intended to be. Similar bikes have been ridden round the world and all over the place.
it is a bit high for even the small hills we have in Cheltenham.
Mine’s (Nexus) 3speed. Needed to get up the Malverns sometimes daily so I switched to a 20T on the back and found a replacement Shimano Nexus chainset with 33T chainring. It really winches with zero fuss. ie gets nowhere fast, no sweat.
I had a small Ladies Dutch bike that I extended with a long seatpost. Three speed, hub brakes, fully enclosed chaincase drive and guards, MASSIVE panniers. Was great as a shopper. And it was always fun sitting on the wheel of roadies going into Windsor seeing if they could up the pace to drop me. Hint: it's the engine not the bike, even 2nd cat racers sometimes go shopping.
It had its own gravitational field. I did put it on the roofbars of our CRV (once). I gave it to our local Freecycle in the end so someone else could enjoy it in the flatlands of Uxbridge.
If you are doing hills you will need more than three gears, but with the right gears, you can go anywhere. In a stately fashion, naturally.
I mwet a chap who cycled his singlespeed trad dutch bike from the Netherlands to northern Norway and back
I think someone ride up Alpe d'Huez on a London hire bike. Doesn't mean it's a good tool for the job. I use a powered drill because using a hand drill is really quite stupid.
I use a powered drill because using a hand drill is really quite stupid.
I had a friend ride a stepthru dutch bike from Cornwall to Portugal, with a trailer, surfboard and guitar! Happiest cyclist I ever met. An upright bike is a good see and be seen option. The balloon tyres cope with all kinds of paved and unpaved roads. It’s not all about max speed? Sometimes min speed is more fun. Bicycle is to get from A to B. ymmv. Drill is to make a hole in something. ymmv. Plenty of people still use hand drills for the right kind of jobs at (sic) hand for a number of non-stupid reasons.
Some advantages of a hand drill:
Longevity
Most hand drills were made in a time where tools were built to last and it’s commonplace to find ones from many years ago still being used today without issues.
Low maintenance
The only maintenance that a manual hand drill requires is oiling and possibly replacing wooden handles after decades of use if they’ve become worn down.
No sound
Compared to other drills of today, the noise coming from a hand drill is virtually silent. You can work any time of day or night without bothering anyone or needing protection for your ears.
Precision
A manual drill allows for a much more precise hole to be made and gives you greater control. The speed of an electric drill means sometimes they’re harder to control and can do more damage than you’d like.
Portable
Just like a cordless drill, a hand drill can be used anywhere and doesn’t require electricity to work. Better yet, they don’t require batteries either, so there’s no risk of running out of power.
If you are doing hills you will need more than three gears, but with the right gears, you can go anywhere. In a stately fashion, naturally.
My road bike has a SA 3spd and while more gear range could be handy sometimes I can ride hilly routes on it
As above - its the UK that are outliers who need huge gear range and fancy lightweight bikes to ride touring in europe dutch style ( but not retro ones) are the norm
Drill is to make a hole in something. ymmv. Plenty of people still use hand drills for the right kind of jobs at (sic) hand for a number of non-stupid reasons.
Some advantages of a hand drill:
Longevity
Most hand drills were made in a time where tools were built to last and it’s commonplace to find ones from many years ago still being used today without issues.Low maintenance
The only maintenance that a manual hand drill requires is oiling and possibly replacing wooden handles after decades of use if they’ve become worn down.No sound
Compared to other drills of today, the noise coming from a hand drill is virtually silent. You can work any time of day or night without bothering anyone or needing protection for your ears.Precision
A manual drill allows for a much more precise hole to be made and gives you greater control. The speed of an electric drill means sometimes they’re harder to control and can do more damage than you’d like.
Portable
Just like a cordless drill, a hand drill can be used anywhere and doesn’t require electricity to work. Better yet, they don’t require batteries either, so there’s no risk of running out of power.
I love this response, because a lot of thought, time and effort went into creating it. And I can't really argue with it, much. 🙂
Dutch bikes are still crap for most other types of riding though.
I don't think anyone has mentioned how easy they are for carrying passengers, even after a couple of (ahem) refreshments. Side saddle on the rear rack seemed to be the standard way... sometimes with an umbrella up. And a phone in the other hand. Or towing a wheelie case behind..
Plus the upright position makes it a doddle to cycle whilst pushing another bike along beside you (without rider). Which can sometimes be handy. Basically they're great transport bikes if its flat.
EDIT "Omafiets" or "Opafiets" is what you're looking for (grandma/grandpa bike).
Plus just found this 😃. https://rollingspoke.com/double-riding-in-amsterdam/
and
Get a Pedersen! I borrowed one in Copenhagen and it was brilliant fun. Didn't go up or down any hills, though, which I can imagine might be terrifying.
Not all Netherlands is flat. Arnhem area is up and down to the river. I've ridden a mates Gazelle Orange C7 quite a bit (7 speed Nexus, roller brakes, dynamo etc). It's brilliant, hills are just fine, sit down and winch your way up or standing up takes a bit of getting used to as it puts the bars close to your legs, but I've done 1 in 6 no bother. I ride a Real Classic, British version of a dutchie as my town bike, just upgraded with the bits form a dead ebike so it has dynohub and Nexus7 now, seriously considering taking it instead of my Fargo for a continental trip.
Dutch bikes are still crap for most other types of riding though.
Same could be said for FS Enduro, racing/road bike, etc
IME the Dutch utility bike is best of all for local journeys, cruising around, pub trips, general town/car-replacement. By far. That actually covers quite a lot of bases on e getting beyond the the UK ‘bikes are for sport’ mindset.
Have used it to carry friends home drunk from the pub, pick up guests from bus stop, get me to the supermarket, go local camping with daft amounts of gear, shopping, errands, any day or night, no maintenance, no fussing with lights, locks, special clothing etc just get on and go everything is always on.
I took it full loaded on a train to a city and then cycled the final 10 (rural) miles with all my camping and clothes on board for a week away. And it was a breeze to ride back in and around the city, go and fetch takeouts, etc.
I really can’t think of any other bike I own that is so useful, or one that so encourages me to leave the car behind. The nearest would be the 29er but it doesn't have nearly so much utility or ‘zen’ that the Dutch bike has. Not to mention I fear leaving it locked up anywhere.
ymmv
(I’m obviously missing it. Could be time for that restoration, it’s possibly the last chance before Final Winter arrives)
Same could be said for FS Enduro, racing/road bike, etc
Oh yes.
IME the Dutch utility bike is best of all for local journeys, cruising around, pub trips, general town/car-replacement. By far.
And in my experience, a bog standard 'hybrid' style bike is by far the best all-rounder, as you have a better more efficient riding position, they're generally a good bit lighter, and have more 'standard' tyre sizes, etc. And can go up and down hills. No brainer...
And in my experience, a bog standard ‘hybrid’ style bike is by far the best all-rounder,
The do not have the fully enclosed chain, integrated lights, full coverage mudguards, inbuilt locks, luggage carrying capacity
The do not have the fully enclosed chain, integrated lights, full coverage mudguards, inbuilt locks, luggage carrying capacity
Which add loads of weight, and end up being a complete pain in the arse when things go wrong. Hybrids have easily as much luggage carrying capacity as any Dutch bikes. You can get belt-drive and E- versions of hybrids now. So much more versatility.
The do not have the fully enclosed chain, integrated lights, full coverage mudguards, inbuilt locks, luggage carrying capacity
This. It means you can just jump on the bike in your normal clothes, and without having to remember lights or locks etc. The full coverage mudguards with the side panels on the rear wheel make a massive difference to how feasible wet weather commuting is in normal clothes. No different to walking in the same conditions. They are bikes for people rather than cyclists! Of course a hybrid can be built up like that too I suppose, but pricier than a tenth-hand old fashioned one.
Bridges - have you ever ridden one?
And in my experience, a bog standard ‘hybrid’ style bike is by far the best all-rounder, as you have a better more efficient riding position, they’re generally a good bit lighter, and have more ‘standard’ tyre sizes, etc. And can go up and down hills. No brainer…
I’d agree with hybrid for the ‘all-rounder’ for casual cyclists. Never been a fan though although have tried many and owned a few. Currently 29er is my nest find as an all ‘rounder’ (to me an all rounder needs to do MTB) Best so far.
I certainly wasn’t arguing that a Dutch utility bike is the best ‘all-rounder’
But it’s a better urban/cityutility/car-bike *for my use* than any ‘all-rounder’ that I’ve ever had.
I’ve had a handful of hybrids over the years and the Batavus simply blows them out of the water for everything I do with it (mentioned in my last post) and is (so help me) just more fun and ‘zen’ to ride. I always feel less stressed on it than anŷ other bike to date. That counts on a long day in lots of traffic, with many stops.
It destroys the hybrid in the same way as the handbuilt tourer destroys the MTB. One is for on the road for mile-eating and load-lugging, the other isn’t. In fact now shod with trad swept bars bars my (tourer) is currently standing in for the Dutch utility bike. But it’s just a different thing altogether and nowhere near as good for the job. I love it for riding distances though. And for fetching eggs from villages.
*Edit. Wait! Just remembered, we also have this:
in the shed, and it could be put back on the road/to work easily instead of going to the bother and cost of restoring the Batavus. But it’s a no-brainer! Quite literally given the choice I used the Batavus every time. The hybrid ended up on a turbo during Covid and is now getting the heave-ho. The hybrid feels all cramped and spindly.
It doesn’t have the stability, the hub dynamo, the integrated locks, the length (both frame and rack), the low CoG, the load capacity, the comfort, the no-nonsense gearing/IGH, the ability to also safely carry a friend/passenger to the railway station (along with luggage), etc etc.
A stepthru hybrid would be fine for a student or pub bike, and it may even get me farther and faster on towpaths etc. Butthat’s not what I need/use it for. As a 10-mile radius ‘car’ bike (majority of journeys) all-weather utility it falls way short. Yet I still recommend cheap hybrids for a ‘do-it-all’ in town for most people, as most people don’t use a bike daily and for virtually all cargo.
I could swap the Batavus for a longer ‘cargo’ bike, but the Dutch utility bike is more versatile (trains, storage, etc) and I have a car/estate for the really long stuff.
So it is definitely a ‘drill’ for a job, but it does way more useful stuff for us than our hybrid did/could. And I prefer riding it. I wouldn’t want a 700c for a utility bike, 26” max.
In saying all this, I don’t think the Batavus Personal is a ‘typical’ Dutch bike geo? It seems specifically utility/cargo , ie long and tough, smaller wheels (26) - but with an omafiets flavour and finish. It also has an enormous steel cable that slides smoothly out of the frame, to tether to places where you might not want to rely solely on the rear lock. Both of the two integrated locks share the same key which lives in the lock until you lock it. So you can’t forget it. Clever stuff. Not that anyone would steal the brute!
Think I’ve (sorry everyone) written more about this Batavus than for any of the other 40-odd bikes I’ve owned and used over the decades. It really was a game-changer for me. Or else it’s self-generated gravity-field finally got to my head. As ever, ymmv. OP, what about a Raleigh Pioneer Hybrid? Eminently more sensible, plentiful, lighter, usually way cheaper, more gears and certainly not as ugly.
Bridges – have you ever ridden one?
Yes, why do you ask? Not only that, I've actually owned one. I found it ok for very short distances, but really quite crap at anything else. They are ok for short distances in Dutch towns, though, I must say. Mine was a wreck I found in the street, and fixed up. I ended up giving it to someone who'd actually lived in Amsterdam, so they appreciated it more than me.
I asked because you view sounded like that of someone who has not ridden one. fair enough if you have.
I asked because you view sounded like that of someone who has not ridden one
Really? You thought that based on what 'evidence'?
Let’s keep it about the cycling/bikes! 🚲