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Second ride out on my ebike today up a massively boggy wyre forest.
One thing I struggled with was roots.
I just can't seem to relax and fell off twice getting thrown off when the bike hit some roots and slipped.
How do you deal with them ? Never had an issue before but I'm guessing the extra weight of the ebike it was different and i found it difficult.
Night rides.
Its amazing what you can ride when you don't know its there.
Today i decked it on some wet timber... the decking outside the Glentress toilet block, I hate roots and now i hate all wood features.
Sometimes sh1t happens. I wouldn't be too quick to have a crisis on the basis of one ride.
Normal things like try and take them at 90 degrees rather than parallel etc apply obviously. Momentum ahead of the roots and staying centred are your friend too. Maybe it is tempting to sit like a sack of spuds on the ebike and cruise/ pedal a bit nonchalantly into the roots?
One bit of advice I always remember from a Bryn Atkinson video was to ignore the slippery bits and focus on where you will have grip to regain control/ brake. It is kind of basic to not brake on slippery stuff like roots but it is very easily done and flipping the problem around to "where will I find grip and control" rather than "how do I avoid that slippery bit" is subtle but effective.
All a bit basic but maybe there is something helpful there?
Cover the wet roots with leaves so you can’t see them. Then you won’t crash.
Cover the wet roots with leaves so you can’t see them. Then you won’t crash.
Genius.
😂😂
My way to negotiate wet routes was always to go quick and make the bike as light as possible. Not sure the unweighting is possible on a 40lb ebike 😂
40lbs. And the rest. My bike is 26kg so 57lbs plus the weight of all the mud 😂
90 degrees to the roots with the front wheel. Accept the back will slide all over the place. Get used to letting it as 90% of the time it will hook up again pretty quickly.
Fast is better than slow. Stay off the brakes and let the suspension do it's thing.
I’m serious. The most relaxed feeling ride down the beast of hope cross I’ve ever had was in the snow. Just enough to cover the pointy rocks but still show the shape of the trail, where the drops are. Not necessarily fastest but definitely smooth. Similarly I recently cleared a log drop I’ve always panic braked on because the leaves softened the edge visually somehow. Looked more like a roll than a drop.
I think I’m saying get off the brakes!😂
Does it have a massive, soft, sticky front tyre? If so, why not? It's an ebike after all. Nothing really sticks on roots of course but bigger = more tyre not on root, or less time with all tyre on root. Spiky mud tyres likewise no better on the root itself but can find dirt sometimes. And lower pressures if possible will let it glom around the root more, again helps it find not-root but also can create a bit of mechanical grip just from conforming to the shape.
I did learn at QECP, which is (or used to be) wet root city. I learned on a 19lb rigid bike... 😊 It really is about putting as lttle weight down through the tyres as possible.. with the ebike, and it’s heft, I guess you’d have to use speed to get that effect.. Don’t fear the roots, fly across them.
Don’t brake, steer and try to hit them as much at “right angle” as poss.
Which ebike did you get?
On the question, look further ahead, I bet you're getting sucked into looking down at roots.
Always remember, the actual root only cover a wee bit of ground, there's grip in terms of mud/whatever before and after it.
For starters where you went wrong was bothering to ride the Wyre Forest at this time of year! It's awful in the winter and should be avoided at all costs!
If the root section isn’t too long, use the first to pop off and clear them.
As others say, knowledge is always good, so you can pick the line, know when they're coming up and so on will be a good way of knowing how to attack them, yes hitting them perpendicular is always nice, but not always doable, sometimes you have to attack and jump them, or get the front unweighted to go over it and let the back slide a little on the root.
Reality is it's just practice, wet roots take down everyone, there is no tyre or additional skill that'll help if your front hits a wet root at speed, going fast might sound good, but having gone down recently going fast over a rooty section i have to say when you land sideways on roots, they hurt as much as landing on a rock!
For starters where you went wrong was bothering to ride the Wyre Forest at this time of year! It’s awful in the winter and should be avoided at all costs!
Haha you are right GC. It was horrendous.
The ebike I got was a 2021 Whyte E150s v1 29er.
It's a tremendous bike and I'm over the moon with it.
The front tyre is a WTB Verdict 2.5.
I also need to get used to the lag in the power coming in. Spent quite a bit of time understeering into the trees 😂
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Get a 2.6 Magic Mary on the front asap.
Get a 2.6 Magic Mary on the front asap.
What would be the equivalent Maxxis tyre. Just put a DHR2 on the back.
Don't match tyre brands, only fannies do that!
Mary 2.6 is superb.
2nd the point about looking where you think the grip will actually be.
There used to be a couple of trees on a trail nearby that had huge eroded balls of roots that made an S in the trail. You could either pick your way around it slowly or straight line it right over the top. Every time you hit it would send you sideways in all sorts of ways but as long as you kept thinking about the exit and what angle you wanted the bike at then it just sort of instinctively worked.
It's not so much the "relax", more the "don't panic and overthink it" without being completely passive. If you hit a root mid-corner it'll still send you into the undergrowth faster than you can blink.
And that's coming from me who rode throughout winter a few years in a row with double marys on! Not only is it not fun for us but it wrecks the place because of the ground consistency and the sheer gloooooop! I generally switch to XC rides with kinver edge thrown in once winter comes.
TBH as long as it's the high grip the Verdict's a beast already, I don't think it's the issue.
SHorty 2.5 maxxgrip though, is the answer to the actual question.
Is there a EXO/EXO+ Maxxgrip Shorty? Only seen the DH version.
This will be a problem with the bike.
Get a better bike.
This will be a problem with the bike.
Get a better bike.
Bike is fine. Absolutely perfect in fact.
It's my lack of riding and getting used to a heavier bike that's the issue.
Have to say rode the golfie today with a normal verdict having changed from a purple MM and it was incredibly sketchy in the slidey stuff. Have a verdict wet that I'll be trying next. Normal verdict is going away for winter 😁
getting used to a heavier bike that’s the issue.
You said it yourself. Buy another one - this one isn't working for you.
You said it yourself. Buy another one – this one isn’t working for you.
Please stop trying to derail the thread and turn in to another change bike thread.
This bike is perfectly fine. It's me that needs to adjust.
Go for one about 30lb or lower 😁
(sorry!)
Have to say rode the golfie today with a normal verdict having changed from a purple MM and it was incredibly sketchy in the slidey stuff. Have a verdict wet that I’ll be trying next. Normal verdict is going away for winter
First bike I've had with WTB tyres and to be honest I'm not taken with them.
The verdict on mine is a 2.5 normal one not the wet model.
To be fair I've always had issues with wet roots since I had a big off a few years back. Just can't seem to relax over them now.
To be honest i wouldn't want to relax over them, i want to be wary of the dangers around, the fact is that hitting a wet root and coming off is a hard fall, you're down quick and fast, they hurt more than most, respect them, go slow if you aren't sure, add speed when you are, like everything else on a track or a ride, there are risks, you just have to work out what level of risk you want to take.
p.s, protection is always good as well, if it's rooty falls then some type of padded short/pant is good, and as always knee/elbow pads, if you can't stay upright, then try to minimise the damage!
Your tyres are good. And the Verdict should be better on roots that the Verdict Wet, just like cut spikes are better on roots and than full spikes. Bike is fine too - in fact I think ebike handle skittery wet root moments better than normal bikes because their mass wants to keep moving in a straight line.
Focus on what’s before the roots to set up right and then what’s after. If some are freaking you out, just walk them or tripod through. As long as you ride some successfully then you’ll get the skills back. From your other posts, you’ve not ridden much in recent times, and riding wet roots is bloody difficult. Keep doing it.
About hitting the roots at 90 degrees, this sometimes means riding diagonally across the trail, kind like zigzagging.
I've also recently discovered Specialized Ground Control tyres in 3.0" width which are the best tyres on roots I've ever used.
Today i decked it on some wet timber… the decking outside the Glentress toilet block, I hate roots and now i hate all wood features.
Don't do that ! they have been trying for ages to stop folk riding on the decking. The one outside the cafe is almost destroyed and yet folk still ride on it, even abusing the cafe staff when asked not to.
Is the bike wash working yet ?
Anyhoo, I hate wet roots so am resigned to shutting my eyes and hoping for the other side.
Spot them before you hit them and lift the front wheel over the worst ones. Stay low and loose to deal with the back end movement.
I think you w got to accept that occasionally roots with sniper even the best riders.
They’re not my favourite thing and I’m much happier on flow trails with huge berms and some lips - but natural muddy stuff is growing on me. Just make sure you’ve got decent enough tyres on - and then it’s just about practice and thinking about how you go into stuff.
I’m loving the 2.6” Hillbilly on the front of my bike - coping with muddy conditions better than the 2.35”’Mary I had on there before. Back is a 2.3”’Dhr2 which is normally pretty good - but it was too muddy / slippery out for it yesterday (it’s a 3c exo version). Lots of fun drifting to be fair - just wasn’t braking as well as usual. Particularly sloppy though so sticking with it.
Psi’s were 18 ish front / 20 ish rear.
Where you can, just dropping the seatpost as far out of your way as you can and staying fairly low on the bike with bent arms and legs helps. Means when the bike does go (it will slide out at some point and difficult to predict when) you can let it go and still try and stay on / catch it when it runs out of root and hits some kind of ground with grip.
Obvs try and hit stuff at 90 degrees where possible. I don’t think speed massively helps (mostly makes the crash bigger) but a bit of momentum so you don’t have to pedal and so you can go light over roots helps.
I feel like I’m gradually getting into it again this slop season - although yesterday I saw a few roots coming up so pushed down on the front just before them to lift and unweight the front over them - didn’t realise there was a root before them under leaves - and the front just went completely sideways! Managed to bail off to the left and just about stay up. Got the heart rate going!
Have you ever had to use suppositories?
Imagine you're about to pop one in just as you approach the wet roots, relax and unweight the bike - and as someone else suggested, keep your eyes on the next grippy bit you're aiming for.
That's a new way of looking at it 😀
Talking of wrong tyres - I was a bit overconfident on roots, having ridden them so much, then demo'ed a Cannondale with summer tyres (can't remember that brand they always used to use) hit roots I'd ridden a gazillion times, stacked it and head butted a tree. Cracked a vertibra in my neck. LolZ
Have you ever had to use suppositories?
🙂
“About hitting the roots at 90 degrees, this sometimes means riding diagonally across the trail, kind like zigzagging.”
The hitting the roots at 90 deg thing is one of those bits of advice that hinders as much as it helps. If you can set up to hit a root at 90 deg that’s better, if you can hop the diagonal ones and only hit the others at 90 deg then that’s good but realistically on natural trials you will encounter a lot of diagonal roots that you can’t avoid.
On my local trails there isn’t a line choice on a lot of the rooty sections, they really are absolute singletrack. And I’ve ridden big root gardens at FoD where there are so many roots that you haven’t a hope of finding a perfect perpendicular line over all of them.
But if you stay loose and unweight over the worst then physics will carry you through. Staying loose requires practice and minimal crashing as you practice!
Does lowering tyre pressure work for rooty rides or do you need a normal pressure?
Don’t do that ! they have been trying for ages to stop folk riding on the decking. The one outside the cafe is almost destroyed and yet folk still ride on it, even abusing the cafe staff when asked not to.
Is the bike wash working yet ?
Really? I have been riding at Glentress (and everywhere else in the Tweed Valley) regularly since the 'new' facilities were built and have never heard or seen anything suggesting not riding on the decking. All that would be needed is a 'dismount now' sign at Alpine bikes and pretty much everyone would.
The bike wash was definitely working a week ago.
“About hitting the roots at 90 degrees, this sometimes means riding diagonally across the trail, kind like zigzagging.”
The hitting the roots at 90 deg thing is one of those bits of advice that hinders as much as it helps. If you can set up to hit a root at 90 deg that’s better, if you can hop the diagonal ones and only hit the others at 90 deg then that’s good but realistically on natural trials you will encounter a lot of diagonal roots that you can’t avoid.
On my local trails there isn’t a line choice on a lot of the rooty sections, they really are absolute singletrack. And I’ve ridden big root gardens at FoD where there are so many roots that you haven’t a hope of finding a perfect perpendicular line over all of them.
But if you stay loose and unweight over the worst then physics will carry you through. Staying loose requires practice and minimal crashing as you practice!
Yep its exactly like this, some of the roots run parallel with the trail or slightly off and when your front wheel gets caught by it they just tramline and pull you off the bike.
The Wyre was a proper mud fest yesterday, never seen it so boggy and gloopy in the years I've been riding there (Maybe just lucky)
Probably not ideal conditions for a second ride on the ebike and still getting used to it. For instance there is a bit of lag after you start pedaling before the power comes in and when it did it was pushing the straight on instead of going round a bend in the tight twisty singletrack.
Still its all a learning curve.
dont brake.
speed is your friend
if you are going uphill try and keep the motor engaged.
trumpton
Free Member
Does lowering tyre pressure work for rooty rides or do you need a normal pressure?
Lower works best for roots and rocks, lower pressure means more give in the tyres to absorb impacts and shape around the bit you're traversing, but it also means more tread on ground so can be more annoying in muddy stuff, swings and roundabouts unfortunately, but i'd err on the lower pressures in terms of risks over winter months
Keeping my elbows well bent helps me. That way when the front end inevitably slides it won't pull me off balance with it, as I can just extend my arms and wait for the front tire (hopefully) to catch something soft again.
It just occurred to me how this thread title must read to antipodeans.
if there is a big motor push/kick maybe use less assistance? or keep the motor engaged as much as possible. my eeb has shorter cranks and a higher bb than my normal bikes. probably for this reason.
dont bother with standing up climbing as you dont need the mashing pedal power - what you need is a smooth cadence to keep the assistance even and constant.
i found i couldnt ride the eeb like a normal bike uphill - you HAVE to keep pedalling uphill over technical stuff. especially if its steep, muddy and rooty and you need that assistance. it will slide at times - its inevitable - but more time than not it seems to grip or you can catch the slide using your upper body shift (sometimes it just slides too far).
Obvioulsy there are times you need to put in a burst to get over an obsticle then pedal after but for most sections do not need to be ridden like this as you have the motor.
im using recons so basically summer tyres. where we ride its stupidly muddy and rooty. i do slide out at times but more often than not if i keep pedalling i can ride it out. embrace the challenge!
if there is a big motor push/kick maybe use less assistance? or keep the motor engaged as much as possible. my eeb has shorter cranks and a higher bb than my normal bikes. probably for this reason.
dont bother with standing up climbing as you dont need the mashing pedal power – what you need is a smooth cadence to keep the assistance even and constant.
i found i couldnt ride the eeb like a normal bike uphill – you HAVE to keep pedalling uphill over technical stuff. especially if its steep, muddy and rooty and you need that assistance. it will slide at times – its inevitable – but more time than not it seems to grip or you can catch the slide using your upper body shift (sometimes it just slides too far).
Obvioulsy there are times you need to put in a burst to get over an obsticle then pedal after but for most sections do not need to be ridden like this as you have the motor.
im using recons so basically summer tyres. where we ride its stupidly muddy and rooty. i do slide out at times but more often than not if i keep pedalling i can ride it out. embrace the challenge!
Im certainly embracing the challenge that's for sure.
It was great to be able to not feel blown after a hill so then I can concentrate on the downs or the xc.
It was the ebb and flow single-track that I found the lag a bit of a hinderance but I'm sure I'll get used to planning my pedaling a bit better.
if you are going uphill try and keep the motor engaged.
This is a useful tip. Rather than stop pedaling if you're going to fast for an uphill corner just feather the rear brake to control the speed. That way you can keep a nice steady power going to the rear and not upset the bike mid corner.
Also use the motor over run to help boost the bike through uphill rock sections where you can't pedal.
A quick stab/quarter turn of the crank can give you enough momentum to get up a rock/root step without smashing the pedal into the ground.
Anyone that can't unweight on a eeb doesn't know how to unweight. Same technique just more so.
You can unweight an MX/Trials/Enduro bike so a couple more KG's of an eeb make little difference.
Oh ans what GC said about the Wyre, don't bother in the winter. the place is a mess.
You don't have grip on wet roots. It makes no difference if you are 'relaxed' or not. There just isn't any.
You need to think of yourself as a ballistic entity, like a marble rolling down the trail - following your momentum. You have to give some nudges where you can. The thing with roots is that the nudges can't be where the roots are.
There's a gulley in my local woods that I call pinball alley. You can't ride straight down the middle as it's narrow, and you can't ride along one side cos the sides are too steep and you'll slide. So you have to ride as if you were a marble rolling down a gutter - drop in at an angle, roll up one side, then lean the other way and you roll down again and cross to the other side. This way you hardly need any lateral grip cos you aren't really turning as such, just following your momentum.
There's a wide flat corner into a downhill on another trail that is completely strewn with roots. The way to ride this is to lean over, expect slippage and drift outwards, because at the outer edge the roots rise up towards a tree and the edge of the trail, and this forms a mini berm that will guide you around the corner.
Sometimes in mud or roots you are going to slide sideways - anticipate it as it happens, or even before - look at the trail and think 'those roots are going to force me over there, so that's my line wether I like it or not' and then plan your next move from that point.
Also unweight. This is an essential technique of MTBing in any conditions.
2.6 hillbilly running around 18 psi works for me on my ebike.
+1 for Magic Mary, she may scream and complain on the road but she loves a bit of root 😂😂😂
Then go to BPW and do root manoeuvres in the wet, it forces you to move your weight around which helps take advantage of grip at either end and get the unweighted end over the root. Might be harder when the bike is much heavier?
Worked for me, although I still tanked it on the gravel bike recently over a root that appeared through the leaves and slid the back wheel to horizontal 👍
Have been out the last two weekends and I’ve got Verdict wets front and rear
Aye they sip a bit on the roots but my mate was in front of me on a 2.6 magic Mary and he slipped on the same roots
Rubber v wet wood ain’t ever going to end well!!!
As said about trying to hit the roots at the right angle and not sideways or off camber and will give a fighting chance
All that would be needed is a ‘dismount now’ sign at Alpine bikes and pretty much everyone would.
There is a massive dismount sign and yet the staff still get abuse for asking folk not to ride on the decking.
Mostly at the cafe as its now breaking up.
Anyhoo.
@bout time that wash was up and running again, my van is maukit.
thols2
It just occurred to me how this thread title must read to antipodeans.
Yes, it makes perfect sense like that. After all dry roots ... nah, I'd better not go there. 🙂
The faster you go, the less time you're on the root. 👍🏻
I’ve got Verdict wets front and rear
Are you on an ebike? I really hope you are.
Lots of good advice but with a thick carpet of leaves over a lot of trails, I'm not sure what the answer is.
Luckily the sniper that took me down a couple of weeks ago wasn't shooting to kill as he shot the bike clean out from under me. On the bike one minute, sliding on my side through the leaves a nanosecond later. Luckily nothing solid or lumpy on the bit I ended up sliding along...
Are you on an ebike? I really hope you are.
@chakaping didn’t the OP say he was on Eeb??
Aye I’m riding an Eeb too
Thought you must have been, it's murderous work just pedaling around with one of them on the front, let alone both ends.
I used to ride with a front wild enduro front and rear on my Bird Aeris
Wanted the grip so put up wae the Drag
If you close your eyes they can't see you