[Closed] We need to talk about Valverde (probable spoilers)

But he’s neither British, nor in Team sky, so how can he be a doper?

Yep, he's been doing rather well at La Vuelta.

I think it's great that advances in nutrition and training/recovery regimes allow riders to have a golden twilight of their careers.  You lot are just cynics.

Valverde is young. Chris horner won it in 2013 at 40 years old. There was absolutely nothing suspicious about that performance 😂

It stinks, even Imlach and holyDave are struggling to stay on script and reduced to talking about him as little as possible.

and exactly the same as Leipheimer a couple of years ago and Cobo before that ... is the Vuelta the place where riders get away with it??

is the Vuelta the place where riders get away with it??

No - it's not at all like the wild west.  It's just that riders are looking forward to the end of their season and so ease into the break by sprinting up 20% hills.  I did enjoy a report on the TT (cycling news maybe?) that said that Valverde had come out of the rest day remarkably well-recovered

Also, does Aru not have any undercrackers? I know we're in the third week, but you'd have thought he'd have packed enough to last.

Some bare-faced cheek shown today.

If we need to talk about Valverde, do we also need to talk about Yates?

Buried himself in the TT at the Giro, suffered as a consequence.

Buried himself in the TT at the Vuelta, lost just a handful of s. to Valverde and Mas, gained almost a minute on K and Q.as a consequence?

TBF i don't think he really did TT as hard as he did in Italy, because in the Giro he knew that he'd lose a lot of time to Dumoulin so knew he had to 'limit losses', so it's not in any way comparable.

But we can all play the speculation game, can't we?

Nudge nudge, wink wink - say no more.

Any win for valverde is a loss for cycling.

Valverde and Froome have been seen together being very friendly in a race.

Makes you think... [\JHJ]

If riders are doping in the Vuelta , what are they on, given the advances in testing? Or is the testing not robust in Spain?

The testing will be frequent and robust in WADA accredited Spanish labs. Froome was tested 21 times last year. What they prepared with is likely to be of more interest than what they may or may not be taking now.

And I did s**** at the “coming out of the rest day” comment when I heard it too.

We do indeed, there's a lot of talk of him being a "proper racer" and very little about him being an aging (ex?)doper. One might say it is "not normal".

Related, have we forgotten that Yates failed a drugs text not that long ago?

I was really hoping Steven Kruijswijk held on yesterday as I'm not sure I want either Valverde or Yates to win.

Related, have we forgotten that Yates failed a drugs text not that long ago?

His team doctor didn't submit the paperwork for a prescribed medication and the UCI gave him the very minimum ban and basically said it wasn't cheating but an administrative error. About as far the other end of the scale from what Valverde did as is possible

I can't stand cheats, but I also can't stand trial by speculation and inference

I don't think we neec to talk about Valverde, certainly if it's all just idle speculation not backed up with any actual evidence of "current" wrongdoing. He's animating the race and providing much of the entertainment. Just sit back and enjoy, bring out the pitchforks if he actually fails a test or some other credible evidence emrges.

I admire Valverde's racing instincts, but he's an unrepentant douche. I enjoy seeing him animate races and then get beaten.

I admire Valverde’s racing instincts, but he’s an unrepentant douche. I enjoy seeing him animate races and then get beaten.

Yep, me too.

So there were confirmed links with Operation Puerto and he served bans for misdemeanours all over 10 years ago. Presuming he learned his lessons and hasn't doped for a while now, would that doping still be influencing his performance now?

I met Valverde once on a training ride when I was wintering out in Murcia.  He seemed a nice enough bloke to me, and it was pretty cool that he joined local roadie training rides during the off season.  The only observation I have to make is that he was wearing a very large and chavvy diamond earring in one ear, and was very amused at the idea of a female person out with the group.  I didn't see him take any drugs, sorry.

Tough one. Looks suspect but so have other riders' performances. When do we draw the line?

As for unrepentant...I have some sympathy for that...pretty much everyone was at it a few years back, doping was necessary simply to compete, it's naive to think otherwise.

I didn’t see him take any drugs, sorry.

maybe that earring was some kind of device for delivering PEDs

Looks suspect but so have other riders’ performances. When do we draw the line?

Convicted dopers who are unrepentant?

It could just be that the rest of the favourites are just a little, ermmm, crap? If Simon ‘collapse in the third week’ Yates is holding on AND giving good TT, it shows that it’s hardly a stellar, perfectly prepared peloton.

If he's on drugs they're not very good ones. I'd be expecting bigger margins for my money.

Convicted dopers who are unrepentant?

So only previous dopers will dope now?

If he’s on drugs they’re not very good ones. I’d be expecting bigger margins for my money.

Marginal gain doping, innit?

Presuming he learned his lessons and hasn’t doped for a while now, would that doping still be influencing his performance now?

I read somewhere, during the Arnstrong aftermath, that steroids have an effect many years after you stop taking them.

do we also need to talk about Yates?

Buried himself in the TT at the Giro, suffered as a consequence.

Buried himself in the TT at the Vuelta, lost just a handful of s. to Valverde and Mas, gained almost a minute on K and Q.as a consequence?

Bit OT I know but couldn't spot a more appropriate thread* - is it just me that thinks it's odd both Yates have made the squad for the world championship but not Froome or Thomas because they've worked too hard this season (paraphrasing obviously), more fallout and trial by speculation over team sky's very public not cheating?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/45497084

*very casual look I'll give you that.

I suppose the only mitigating factor is that although he is 38 his body has not had the kicking of your average 38 pro rider because of the time he had off for his ban.

There is a bitter taste to the whole Valverde case that is hard to let go. The Spanish couldn't/wouldn't ban him to start with so he only lost his place on the Tour de France because the Italian Olympic committee suspended him from riding in their jurisdiction and the tour that year was briefly on Italian soil. He hung around like a bad smell for a couple of years before the UCI and WADA managed to appeal and get the Spain Feration's lack of sanction overturned. Does not fill me with confidence his out of competition testing has been top drawer legit since then.

He's the last of the high profile doper dinosaurs from that era - probably a good thing when he's gone too. But it would be very naive to think that was the end of it.

 is it just me that thinks it’s odd both Yates have made the squad for the world championship but not Froome or Thomas because they’ve worked too hard this season

Not odd at all. The article says the decision was mutual. If Froome or Thomas had said we're fit and up for it, they would have definitely been in the team. As it is neither of them seem fit or fancy it which is a bit of a shame 😕

Yates behaved very differently in the Giro, going all out from week 1 and pulling out significant time on people on the climbs (expecting Froome and Dumoulin would take time in the TT) and paid the price in week 3 for going into the red too much early on. At the Vuelta his time gap is far less and he was happy to give up the jersey early on (that he clearly didn't want in the first place) - he's basically saved himself for the TT this week and the three mountain top finishes.

If Yates beats Valverde in the Vuelta do we assume he

a) is a better athlete?

b) has a better doctor?

I don’t think we neec to talk about Valverde, certainly if it’s all just idle speculation not backed up with any actual evidence of “current” wrongdoing.

I think we do need to tolerate discussion of Valverde, though I understand it's irritating to see people trot out the same old platitudes on the subject with no real insight.

By all accounts he's a very popular character in the peloton and as a team mate, I guess what we should be asking is...

How far can an exceptional natural talent and one of the best racing brains in the sport take you against younger opponents?

Why are the roman catholic countries less fussed about the importance of "repentance" from dopers than anglo-saxons are? You'd think they'd be more into that side of things, eh?

If he's served a ban, what philosophical purpose does him coming clean serve? Do we think those who have 'fessed up were all motivated by altruism and/or guilt? Or just making the noises they think the public want to hear? If so, who's the worse hypocrite?

And on a related note, why do riders only usually cough to the doping they got caught for? It'd be interesting to hear what David Millar thought about that one, no?

the decision was mutual

I'm overly sceptical maybe, but i don't think I've ever heard something described as a mutual decision which was anything other than a diktat and grudging acceptance. Where people actually agree they tend not to feel the need to tell you they do. It also strikes me as peculiar they both felt up to it enough to announce they're available 13 days before they suddenly think they're not.

My point was more though that if those two have had too demanding a season (they've certainly not burried themselves in the tour of Britain) how can you think either Yates will be in a fit state after the vuleta. To me it feels very much like something else is afoot with the decision not to send either.

If Yates beats Valverde in the Vuelta do we assume

A, obviously until it's proven fact he's not. Same for valverde. Won't stop us speculating clearly but thinking "maybe" it's very different to thinking "it is."

Why are the roman catholic countries less fussed about the importance of “repentance” from dopers than anglo-saxons are?

That's Catholicism isn't it? Sin as much as you like as long as you do confession.

Why are the roman catholic countries less fussed about the importance of “repentance” from dopers than anglo-saxons are? You’d think they’d be more into that side of things, eh?

Are professional cyclists particularly religious? Do we see marked differences between the Catholic south and protestant north of Germany?

Are professional cyclists particularly religious? Do we see marked differences between the Catholic south and protestant north of Germany?

Just to clarify, I was referring to the general culture and the "court of public opinion", for want of a better expression. Why does Valverde enjoy popularity in Spain while Wiggo is public enemy number one in the UK?

Just to clarify, I was referring to the general culture and the “court of public opinion”, for want of a better expression. Why does Valverde enjoy popularity in Spain while Wiggo is public enemy number one in the UK?

Are either of those statements true? And as for public opinion, Armstrong had a legion of fanboys despite the mounting evidence against him

Are either of those statements true?

True enough for the purposes of this thread.

And as for public opinion, Armstrong had a legion of fanboys despite the mounting evidence against him

Sorry where are you going with this?

the cynic in me says that the Passport looks for outlier data (bio or result) but if you've been entirely filthy through the whole of your career it's how you beat it

Valverde is and always has been a freakish athlete - even when he was a kid he won everything (getting the nickname El Imbatido (the unbeaten) as a junior). He doped, and is probably doping as much as everyone else currently is now, however much that is. But it is hardly like he's come out of nowhere in the protour and is now smashing it like Cobo did in one race before disappearing again.

He is a class rider - there is no disputing that. Coming back from his injury in the tour prologue last year the way he has is pretty incredible.

He's fun to watch and is popular in the peloton by all accounts. I've given up trying to guess who is doping and who isn't, but it is noticeable that there are seemingly more people on a very similar level in recent tours, suggesting no-one has a huge advantage pharmaceutical or otherwise.

Brit cycling fans seem to love creating pantomime villains of people like Contador and Valverde, but happily turn a blind eye to dubious practices in anglo teams...

True enough for the purposes of this thread.

In your opinion. I disagree.

Sorry where are you going with this?

The premise is cobblers.

One more thing on Froome and Thomas not doing the Worlds. Froome's a stage racer and has won nothing of note in one dayers. He's also just done 4 GT's on the bounce. Thomas basically caned it for 2 weeks in August after his tour win and admitted he was surprised how much form he lost.

I think Adam Yates will be protected rider for the Worlds. He's got form in hilly one-dayers (San Sebastian) and is clearly peaking later in the Vuelta in support of his brother. Also, given they'll be wearing the same kit, they can really mess with the opposition's heads:)

I also watch Valverde and consider him to be in the Horner/Cobo/Leipheimer camp.

Also, given they’ll be wearing the same kit, they can really mess with the opposition’s heads

Maybe they've already been doing that on the Vuelta. I bet even their DS can't tell them apart.

Maybe they’ve already been doing that on the Vuelta. I bet even their DS can’t tell them apart.

Genetic doping? 😀

I'm loving this Vuelta, particularly that the breakaway's are succeeding most days giving two races to enjoy.

Slightly ashamed to say that I prefer watching slightly anomalous performances as part of thrilling bike racing to the team Sky approach of stifling every race they want to win. Team Sky have singlehandedly ruined my viewing pleasure, I even couldn't care when Geraint won the Tour despite liking the guy.

Thrilled that Sky aren't even in the arena at the Vuelta.

Agreed. It makes for less predictable and more enjoyable watching but when Astana or Mitchelton-Scott try the Sky-train approach is illustrates how hard it is to do. Sky's absence from the podium has been refreshing in a GT and it shows they just aren't natural stage-hunters with old school racing acumen.

Thinking aloud, I suspect that's why despite Sky's success, Brits rarely appear at the business end of the World Champs race (Cav winning on a drag strip in 2011 being an exception).

Justice is served...

You have to say Mr Yates has an uncanny knack of knowing when to sit in and when to blow the doors off the thing. I'm glad a dodgy veteran wont be winning the Vuelta this year.

Hey, no spoilers thank you.

I checked the title first - you were warned they were probable!

Well, that doesn't mean definite though does it (being awkward here!) and of course we could have done with a proper Vuelta thread in any case.   Watching highlights at 7.00 pm.

Hey, no spoilers thank you.

In a thread with 'spoilers' in the title you've only got your self to blame!

being awkward here!

Wimminz, eh?

😉

Don't you just love us!  Anyways, great stage and that man Yates is as cool as a cucumber.  Roll on tomorrow.

Brit cycling fans seem to love creating pantomime villains of people like Contador and Valverde, but happily turn a blind eye to dubious practices in anglo teams…

Yeah, Sky have had a free pass from everyone. Poor old Valverde being criticised when the only thing linking him to blood doping is DNA evidence and a subsequent two-year ban. It's a swizz 🙂

Anyone seen the menu at the Movistar hotel tonight?

My money is on there being a lot of beef options.

****ING GET IN!!!!

Only need Adam to win the Worlds and GB's domination will be complete!

Indeed.

Shouldnt we have a proper Yates thread ?

<div class="bbp-reply-author">robbo1234biking
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Great result. Guessing that Valverde read the STW thread. Found out we were onto him and dropped back to remove any suspicion.

<span class="bbp-reply-post-date">Posted 29 minutes ago</span></div>

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