[Closed] “ Waterproof “ trouser frustration 😞

Are they wetting out? if they are try washing them in nikwax all waterproofs rely on the DWR to stop the wetting out which keeps the garment breathing. if it doesn't breath it just feels like the water is coming through.

mud is the killer it knackers the dwr.

I had some Sweet mudrides and found them brilliant but all the taped seams started falling off last year. cant complain they've lasted really well.

I have had mixed experiences of waterproof's from madison lately - I don't rate them.

I use Royal Racing Storm Pants and they have been amazing, keep the rain out but breath really well too. Can't rate them highly enough. They are really simple, allow pads underneath and are bombproof.

Prior to that I used Gore paclite trousers and they were pretty good but not quite as waterproof.

Agree about the importance of washing, however don't over wash them and the usual advice applies about using suitable washing product (such as sainsbury's sports wash or nickwax wash) before re-proofing as well as removing any trace of fabric conditioner from the machine.

Having said all that, I don't regularly wash my royal trousers and they remain amazing.

Washed them with Nikwax last week 😞

beefy what’s the sizing like on the Royals waist and leg length ?

I've had no issues with my mt500 freezing point trousers - in fact I'd go as far to say they are one of the best purchases I've made and really help to make muddy/wet winter riding enjoyable.

Buy the Decathlon ones, then when they don't last all day, you'll still be singing their praises, cos for only £40 they lasted as long as everyone elses!

Have you tried military surplus Goretex overtrousers from eBay before?

i always find there is tradeoff between 'sweating like mad' and 'waterproof' and the dampness is often not water getting in.

when its proper raining the material just isnt breathable as its covered in water. then it gets sweaty and clammy and horrible.

you want that magic material that lets water out through holes but doesnt let water in through holes.

How long are the decathlon ones? Ive a 35" inside leg.?

yetidave in my experience they all come up short ie about 30” inseam 🙄

I've got a 31" inseam and the Decathlon ones are too long for me, I still wear them but theyre probably more like 32-33" though!

Be careful of washing them with the Nikwax stuff (actually any of the stuff) - it reproofs the inside and outside of the fabric so probably reduces the breathability...I'm going to stop doing that and use a spray to coat the outside material on my next jacket (which is going to be purchases shortly as my 10+ year old MT-500 jacket is no longer waterproof in the slightest - still a great windproof though!)

you want that magic material that lets water out through holes but doesnt let water in through holes.

Not magic. Water vapour is a gas, it goes through tiny holes. But water comes in droplets with surface tension, so can't go through tiny holes. This is how eVent and a few others work. Most fabrics such as GoreTex don't have tiny holes, they have a plastic layer that can suck water through. The water vapour condenses on the inside (cos it's next to the cold air and further from your warm body) and then gets sucked through.

Breathable waterproofs don't mean you'll stay dry. They mean that rain won't get in and (if the water repellent coating is working) a certain amount of water vapour will get out. But if you sweat more than a bit you'll be damp anyway. Just not as damp and cold as if you weren't wearing one at all, or if you were wearing non-breathable.

Be careful of washing them with the Nikwax stuff (actually any of the stuff) – it reproofs the inside and outside of the fabric so probably reduces the breathability

Yes, temporarily. And it's an interesting demonstration of what your jacket is actually doing when it stops doing it for a few wears.

Most fabrics such as GoreTex don’t have tiny holes

Goretex is just an expanded PTFE membrane with lots of tiny holes, sub 10-6 mm IIRC.

Most fabrics such as GoreTex don’t have tiny holes, they have a plastic layer that can suck water through. The water vapour condenses on the inside (cos it’s next to the cold air and further from your warm body) and then gets sucked through.

or direct from gore...

The GORE-TEX Membrane: What it is, how it works and why you need it | GORE-TEX Brand

spoiler alert: there are holes

Although not trousers, for waterproof nirvana paramo is the one true answer.

Using their jackets has blown my mind in terms of full on waterproofing and proper breathability. Best waterproof I have ever used.

Wish they made trousers.

yetidave in my experience they all come up short ie about 30” inseam 🙄

my decathlon AM trousers purchased last november are fine on my 34" inseam legs. (older versions may have a different cut)

Although not trousers, for waterproof nirvana paramo is the one true answer.

Using their jackets has blown my mind in terms of full on waterproofing and proper breathability. Best waterproof I have ever used.

Wish they made trousers

I've got an old Paramo Velez smock and it's great, pretty toasty though.

Paramo do make trousers too, though not sure what any of them would be like on the bike -
https://www.paramo-clothing.com/en-gb/explore-range/?attributes=0A558008-5CC5-4C74-BEDA-1B6AD4817B31,5A01410B-7BF6-46CC-8A97-FFEA0A577F6E

Not magic. Water vapour is a gas, it goes through tiny holes. But water comes in droplets with surface tension, so can’t go through tiny holes. This is how eVent and a few others work. Most fabrics such as GoreTex don’t have tiny holes, they have a plastic layer that can suck water through. The water vapour condenses on the inside (cos it’s next to the cold air and further from your warm body) and then gets sucked through.

correct me if im wrong but if the outer layer is covered in water (because its lashing it down) then where are the 'little holes' for teh sweat gas and water condensing on teh waterproof to escape? my understanding is the breathable bit is all covered by the layer of rain sat on the on teh outside of the jacket? (this does only apply to when you are riding in actual rain rather than through a few puddles that most seem to class as a 'wet' ride). I used to commute all year in all weathers offroad and never found anything that didnt wet out eventually, through sweat (I live on top of a very exposed big hill) or leakage (dodgy seams). I tried alot of different stuff in those 10 years!

my best solutions were base layers and actual ventilation (i had a pair of berghouse waterproof trousers with zipped and poppered side opening legs which were ace for really minging weather but i cant find any similar now) that allowed large air movement and your core keeps the base layer 'dry'/warm. Or just wear waterproof shorts to keep your body temperatures down so you dont sweat like mad. My current 'breathable' madison waterproof trousers with crappy hip vents get minging fast if you are putting any kind of actual effort in. They are great for a bike park uplift day though when you dont pedal uphill.

in the whole year its was only really a few days when i needed the full monty waterproofs. most of teh time i just used cheapo waterproof trousers cut off as longer shorts, sealskins socks and replaced as required.

correct me if im wrong but if the outer layer is covered in water (because its lashing it down) then where are the ‘little holes’ for teh sweat gas and water condensing on teh waterproof to escape?

thats what the DWR is for. to stop the fabric wetting out and reducing the breathability dramatically.

Paramo jackets work differently, not sure if I understand fully how, but they are not a single layer jacket hence them getting a bit warm. They do rely on good ventilation when proper lashing it down, but regardless it’s the only jacket that I have used that properly works. Tend to work best worn next to the skin or with just a properly breathable base layer.

thats what the DWR is for. to stop the fabric wetting out and reducing the breathability dramatically.

but what if its actually raining? does DWR have its own umbrellas for each hole? DWR doesnt really work for anything other than a bit of occasional light drizzle, which isnt really a wet ride is it. DWR just not intended as a 'waterproofer' it just offers a bit of water resistance to a fabric the fabric can still wet out. (much like my decathlon AM trousers do)

basically i think that its just not that easy to do waterproof stuff for a rider who one moment is chugging up a hill sweating like a sweaty thing, and the next cooling down and chatting and complaining about being damp.

its all a comprimise and i think once you accept that you might get a bit damp, or accept the boil in the bag effect of a proper 'waterproof', or just try and keep the worst of teh weather off, it all seems OK!

correct me if im wrong but if the outer layer is covered in water (because its lashing it down) then where are the ‘little holes’ for teh sweat gas and water condensing on teh waterproof to escape?

They are blocked, that's why you need to look after the DWR coating.

DWR just not intended as a ‘waterproofer’ it just offers a bit of water resistance to a fabric

No, it's to stop the fabric *absorbing* water. That's what keeps the outer fabric porous. The little holes are in the membrane. The membrane itself is (very) waterproof and breathable, but it's too fragile to be used on its own which is why it has a face fabric that needs to be treated to stop it soaking up the rain. In a properly treated jacket the rain water will just fall straight off like it does from a duck's back, and the membrane will stop the raindrops from getting through directly.

basically i think that its just not that easy to do waterproof stuff for a rider who one moment is chugging up a hill sweating like a sweaty thing, and the next cooling down and chatting and complaining about being damp.

No it's not, but waterproofs do help a lot because they stop cold rain getting in. When I wear one I'm usually warm and comfortable, but my clothes are far from dry. Their job is to absorb my sweat and wick it to their outside, where it evaporates and then can pass through the jacket one way or another. If you don't have the wicking clothes then the system doesn't work regardless.

Shakedry jackets are made from the membrane only and so don’t need a DWR. They are also incredibly fragile.

I just scored a bargain* 7mesh oro from eBay so I’ll put this to the test at the weekend.

*£40 new with tags. I’m not sure the seller knew what they were selling.

2nd winter of using Fox Ranger 3l, no complaints at all. Also have a pair of Decathlon AM pants which are ok for the price but not a patch on the Fox's. I use nikwax tech wash and never put fabric conditioner in the washing machine (apparently it can clog the holes that allow moisture to escape)

I've got a range of waterproofs including some shorts that are several years old. They regularly get completely covered with ground in mud. Normally hose them off, occasionally they go in the machine with nikwax or halo after an empty hot cycle to clean the machine. They are all still waterproof, I like to think the fact that machine hasn't seen fabric softener for about 8 years is the reason they are still waterproof!

My last goretex jacket died after all the lining started peeling off and the zip finally gave up after years of encouraging it to zip...still waterproof though!

I have the Decathlon trousers and the Endura MT500. I ride in the Decathlon trousers most rides unless it’s going to be raining - then I use the Endura. The trousers are for me just keeping the mud off my legs and the water running into my boot tops. For £40 the Decathlon ones are great for most rides.

Paramo trousers are awesome, but they’d be like riding in a pair of tracksuit trousers on a bike. But for walking and mountaineering there brilliant

I always find this waterproof thing a bit odd. We're sploshing around in mud and rain, and unless you're wearing a drysuit, stuff from the outside will get in. The trick is not to be dry, but to be warm.

The trick is not to be dry, but to be warm.

absolutely!
in 10 years of shitty weather offroad commuting this was my end result of all the various combos i tried.

No, it’s to stop the fabric *absorbing* water. That’s what keeps the outer fabric porous. The little holes are in the membrane. The membrane itself is (very) waterproof and breathable, but it’s too fragile to be used on its own which is why it has a face fabric that needs to be treated to stop it soaking up the rain. In a properly treated jacket the rain water will just fall straight off like it does from a duck’s back, and the membrane will stop the raindrops from getting through directly.

this is fine and works just dandy in a lab but outside in the forest - especially for trousers getting covered in crap, or a jacket rubbing against itself (or heaven forbid you wear a backpack biking!), unless you get a new pair of trousers every puddle or re-proof your jacket every shower, it is much much less effective.

I mean i`d rather have DWR trousers than not (as for a wee bit of drizzle it helps) btu all you are doing is marginally delaying the inevitable if you ride offroad in proper minging inclement weather.

And then if you do take your fancy jacket/trousers offorad in minging inclement weather and get it covered in crap actually keeping it like the new factory applied DWR is really bloody hard. I`ve never effectively re-applied a waterproofer at home to anywhere close to how it comes new. and in 10 years i tried lots as jackets arnt cheap! (adn its a waste throwing them when they function as a jacket but just wet out.) I sent a few off to be re-proofed which was much better but it is spendy.

The trick is not to be dry, but to be warm.

which is great. until you aren't moving and generating heat. and then you get cold, fast.

which is great. until you aren’t moving and generating heat. and then you get cold, fast.

This. Big time.

Sometimes that means full waterproofs. Sometimes they're too sweaty. Sometimes it means taking a spare baselayer.

Nothing works perfectly. Some stuff works better than other stuff. Everyone has different needs. It's all a compromise.

best I have had for waterproofness and longevity are a pair of Burghaus ones.

Yes - agreed, and a very good point Jam-bo. But as I said: unless you're going for rubber cuffs for each limb and your neck, you won't stop water from getting in - and even then, you'll have a sweat and condensation problem as well. If it's cold and wet, it's best to have a survival blanket or emergency shelter to hand anyway; I have one of the little space foil ones in my pack in case someone gets injured.
My background is sailing: dinghy, then offshore, now back in dinghies. The most important thing I've found in 30-ish years of racing is to wick moisture away from your skin as fast as possible (unless you're in a wetsuit). When I come in from the water and take off the top of my drysuit at this time of year, there is plenty of moisture on my mid layer - a Trax / buffalo thingy with a fleece pile inner and a pertex outer. It's mostly sweat, but also a bit of condensation and, well, my drysuit's quite old, so probably a leak or two as well. The fleece pile keeps the moisture away from my base layer, and the pertex pretty much keeps it between itself and the drysuit. But none of this is terribly flexible or compact, and the boat I race needs both of these things (or rather, I do) - so a layered setup with a wetsuit combo is a better option.
Back on dry land: combine all of this with mud, brambles and the like, and I'd have to say that fancy waterproof outers are probably a road to constant frustration. This time of year (when I'm almost exclusively night riding) I run a wicking base layer/s, roubaix top with a cheap hardshell if it's absolutely hammering it, and some cheapish waterproof shorts over thermal longs or 3/4s and wetsuit socks on the bottom. The waterproof shorts only kept spray off my bum for a few months last year, so I should probably reproof them, but I'm thinking the most practical approach is to fabsil the seat and leave the front as-is. Shorts and trousers, after all, do have three big hols for letting in water. As I say, it's inevitable. Just have a plan for what happens if you have to stop.

unless you get a new pair of trousers every puddle or re-proof your jacket every shower, it is much much less effective.

Of course but regular reproofing works better than never reproofing.

The waterproof shorts only kept spray off my bum for a few months last year, so I should probably reproof them, but I’m thinking the most practical approach is to fabsil the seat and leave the front as-is.

The most practical solution for a dry arse is mudguards.

its all a comprimise

I don't think many (if any at all) materials designed to be waterproof stand up to the high energy output that MTB involves really. Unless you're just pootling about doing sub HR Z-2 stuff your sweat will quickly mean that you'll either overcome the vapour transfer properties or you wear such breathable material it doesn't stop the rain getting through in the first place, and if we're taking trousers, then cover them in mud, rub off the surface protection on a rough saddle aim the hole you use to put them on at one of the biggest spraying areas (the rear wheel) and no "waterproof" trousers is going to last long ...

I've mostly given up traying to stay dry, just dress or layer for either warmth or ability to move sweat according to weather, or take a hard shell jacket, and accept that you'll either be slightly damp or slightly chilly, and chose the lesser of two weevils

The most practical solution for a dry arse is mudguards.

Too right! I've rather let that slip on my bikes since droppers came in. I've a Process 111 that is going to be particularly difficult to fit a mudguard to - the seatstays are all linkagey and the seat tube is quite short...

If you are getting sweaty under your waterproofs wear less under them!  If I have to put a waterproof on when out riding I usually remove a layer

I never have this issue of wetting out from sweat even working hard

being wet when you are out in the wilds is just a no no.

I never have this issue of wetting out from sweat even working hard

Some folk do, some don't. My mate never has sweat dripping on his glasses, and yet he is producing the same power as me. I nearly always do.

I would rather be sweating and warm under a waterproof than dry and borderline cold. Personal preference.

The problem with that molgrips is if you get into trouble hypothermia is not far away

The problem with that molgrips is if you get into trouble hypothermia is not far away

With which? I think you're more likely to get hypothermia with one less layer on. Dampness under a waterproof doesn't seem to be a problem for me because evaporation is rather slow through the membrane.

If I (personally) were wearing few enough layers not to sweat when riding, I'd freeze my balls off pretty quickly if I had to stop.

Ideally if you're out in the sticks and riding at a comfortable temperature in the clothing you're in, you should have at least one more full layer to put on if you need to stop plus an emergency blanket/shelter. Regardless of whether I'm soaked through or bone dry, stopping strenuous exercise means I immediately get cold, as Molgrips points our far more eloquently.

yes but if you are wet from sweat it happens much more quickly.  Thats my point.

What's the difference between being wet from sweat and wet because it's muddy or raining? Isn't that about wicking rather than waterproofing? Example: I'm wearing my nice Northwave GoreTex winter boots with some merino socks. I tread in a puddle that's deeper than I expected, and now I have a pair of waterproof boots full of water. If I'm wearing my summer shoes with wetsuit socks, it's less of an issue.

What’s the difference between being wet from sweat and wet because it’s muddy or raining?

If your clothes aren't waterproof then cold rainwater is continually coming into your clothes refreshing the cold wetness. If you have a waterproof barrier then the heat stays in a lot more. Largely because waterproof kit is also very windproof.