[Closed] Warranty issue with DEVINCI/FREEBORN

Send then the frame and start again.

It's the only way you will get any joy.

That's very poorly worded. As you say, the seat post insertion mark is irrelevant particularly on this type of frame design.

That's very poorly worded. As you say, the seat post insertion mark is irrelevant particularly on this type of frame design

obviously!!!

and I made sure that the seatpost and the shims was long enough to reach the junction with the horizontal tube...

and now the people of freeborn say me that i am a por mechanic while their manual is a total rubbish!!!!

Freeborn didn't write the manual.

DanW - Member

I agree with Loco. Do the following or [b]this thread should be clo[/b]sed

hey Dan, you are free to think anything you want but let others to think themselves

if you wanna be a shepherd you can buy some sheep

Oh I still think freeborn have a point, mind given the frame design

Freeborn didn't write the manual.

yes but they are the salesman of that Brand and knowing that poor manual they can not call me bad mechanic because I used a shim like many others do

It sounds normal. Find any old crap to deny. Giant were the same and I went through the process to for them to come back with a blanket denial. In writing of course. Verbally it was different. "Happens all the time due to flex and the paint can not accommodate the movement - your frame is fine".

Giant added numerous excuses all of which I disapproved with a logical argument. In the end they said so what you've changed the seat post and therefore the warranty is no longer valid, in the T&Cs. F.O!

I would send it back but don't hold your breath.

It would seem mcgowan that you have been severely mistreated on this occasion.
Put it down to experience, move on with your life and don't allow it to haunt your every woken hour.
Life's too short to have such anger. Therapy is always good. Try yoga. Move on.

bencooper - Member

The forces on a headset are very different to a seatpost. Using reducer shims on a headset still leaves the steerer supported at both ends of the head tube. Using a shim on a seatpost leaves the seatpost supported on only the top few inches of the seat tube.

That's not quite the point here- engineering-wise it's different but not everyone is an engineer, to Joe Public they are both products that you can buy to make small things fit in big things. Why would they assume one easily-available, common part is unsafe and one isn't?

thanks for the advice iolo but don't worry

i have found a real professional to repair the frame and he will left it with my favoutite colour: raw

My yoga is the bike and now I have not any 😆

@Northwind,

Which is where the Pro mechanic clause comes in as per Devinci's owners manual.

This is all going in circles anyway, and I'll get acussed of 'manipulating' the facts, again, so will leave the thread to eat it's own tail. 😉

It's pathetic that any manufacturer would look to get out of a warranty claim if there was a 4" shim used. As a couple of folk have already pointed out, some frames come with shims pre-installed to take a custom seat-tube down to a common seatpost diameter. Thousands of folk have been using shims (on Gravity Droppers and other posts) for years so this hardly counts as a bodge.

macgowan - I do think your expectations were too much. For the expense of that frame I'd fully expect the retailer to want it back with them for inspection before doing anything with the warranty.

DanW - do you have some link to Freeborn? You come across as a bit of a fanboi 🙂

in general yes scots but you can see that the shape of that frame means it needs more than 4 " due to the weirdy triangle and where the top tube is

I have been using a seatpost and a shim with a correct lenght so i send photos proving that

- after 2 weeks they reply me that the use of the shim is the reason of the failure. The do not tell me anything about send frame them to investigate more and better. The only offer is to pay 350 pouds for a front triangle.

- i replay them telling where says Devinci that I can not use a shim

- they replay me that it is very clear at point 8 of the owners manual. I read again the manual and there is nothing about that. The only thing that says the manual is about to insert a minium leght inside the frame.

Thousands of folk have been using shims (on Gravity Droppers and other posts) for years so this hardly counts as a bodge.

It's not a bodge as such - but shims are a fix that isn't right for some frames because, especially with thick shims, they're equivalent to running with only a small amount of seatpost in the frame, putting all the stress on the very top of the seat tube.

Some frames can cope with that - frames with seatstays and top tubes that meet near the top of the seat tube generally - other frames cannot. This is the kind of thing you should have a good LBS to help and advise with, and it's a big problem with buying mail order.

No they asked you to send it back, you have not sent it back, they cannot give you a final answer on warranty until you have done this, it's quite simple, or are you trolling?

If you read what he said, it seems like they've basically already decided what caused the fault and that it's not a warranty issue without looking at it, and said 'well, you can send it back for us to have a look at if you want but you're not really going to get anywhere'.

Junkyard - lazarus

in general yes scots but you can see that the shape of that frame means it needs more than 4 " due to the weirdy triangle and where the top tube is

But Devinci don't specify a longer seatpost insertion! They specify the seatpost's own insertion, which is often 4 inches. So if it needs more than 4 inches, and that's what caused it, that's their problem. But either way the shape of the frame isn't relevant.

(question- on the original davinci seatpost provided on full builds, what's the seatpost insertion, anyone know? )

LoCo - Member

Which is where the Pro mechanic clause comes in as per Devinci's owners manual.

And also the "you must not fit any parts not provided with the bike" clause. Both of which are just 2-bit get-out clauses which no decent company should be using. What is it with lifetime warranties that seem to bring out the scumbags?

If you read what he said, it seems like they've basically already decided what caused the fault and that it's not a warranty issue without looking at it, and said 'well, you can send it back for us to have a look at but you're not really going to get anywhere'.

Alleluyah!!!!

But Devinci don't specify a longer seatpost insertion! They specify the seatpost's own insertion, which is often 4 inches. So if it needs more than 4 inches, and that's what caused it, that's their problem. But either way the shape of the frame isn't relevant.

i can say more: on this frame, it is better to use a seatpost and shim with 10 cms inside rather than a 31'6 seatpost and 3" inside.

DanW - do you have some link to Freeborn? You come across as a bit of a fanboi 🙂

No link and no Fanboi 😀 I just foolishly got sucked in to this thread late last night and foolishly thought offering (what I though) is sensible advice might help the OP.

Rather than some of the whinging here, what is the solution? I have had my input but am out of ideas 😉 No one seems to be offering solutions

Let us all pray the OP does not have Fox Forks! 😯 There are enough of those warranty threads 😆

Thank god my, possible, next bike has a weird [url= ]seat post[/url] and [url= ]stem[/url], so I cannot get into such a mess.

We're our own worse enemies 😀

Yes and no. I agree with the above but as long as the shim meets the minimum insertion required into the frame its no different to that of a seatpost with the minimum insertion. (It could be less as the smaller post would absorb the forces better then a larger diameter post assuming they were like for like construction)

Seat tubes, particularly in carbon, are not straight forward. The Giant frame I owned had a thicker wall within the seat tube. In effect an integral shim. The post below the seat tube did not touch the seat tube wall. Well it did when the top section flexed hence the reflective paint crack in the seat tube which related to the bottom of the seat post within the frame.

Also sit on the turbo and look at the flex at the seat tube / seat post mark. If the post is fitting snuggly in the frame and dissipating the forces over say 170mm (in my case)as implied above why is this point moving around like a spider on acid.

What is it with lifetime warranties that seem to bring out the scumbags?

Touch strong maybe, is it because one of my bikes has a 650 wheel on it? 😉

VERY LOUD SHOUTING

It is!

(I don't think you thought that scumbag comment was aimed at you, but just on the off chance you do, it definitely wasn't! Just in case!)

Thank god my, possible, next bike has a weird seat post and stem, so I cannot get into such a mess.

Nice bike.... wait a minute its a Giant. I'm out!

I think there is a difference when using a shim, but whether it will make a frame fail I'm not sure (this could be wrong):
All seat posts (with or without a shim) are only clamped at the top where the seat clamp is. So the post is effectively pivoting around this point when loaded. At the bottom of the seat post, the post is prevented from moving by the internal surface of the frame. With a shim, the post 'may' compress the plastic, resulting in extra deflection (and load) at the top of the post, where the weld is.
As I said, I'm not sure if this is correct, and I'm sure it depends on how stiff the seat post is, relative to the frame etc. It may even be worse if the seat post is inserted a long way (more leverage?)

But if it didn't say don't use a seat post, I'd be annoyed if they rejected my claim.

Sweet mother of Abraham Lincoln, is this thread still going. 🙄

i appreciate that you're pretty pissed about it, but it certainly sounds to me like all avenues have been taken. The offer of a new front triangle seems pretty reasonable to me.

Nice bike.... wait a minute its a Giant. I'm out!

Why? You can't get a Thomson seatpost in a D-shaped hole 8)

Giving Freeborn it with both barrels is never going to solve your problem.

As I say Joe is particularly good to deal with and he deals with warranties at Freeborn. He is a really decent bloke with great customer service.

By the way £350 for a new front triangle is a bloody good deal if you ask me.

If I was you, I would calm down a bit, come back at it with your negotiators hat on and try working with Joe for a compromise. Who knows, they may give you a better deal and throw in a seatpost that is the correct diameter for a Dixon!

maybe this set up would help? should be good for the warranty dept I reckon

[img] [/img]

😯

Please tell me that's a real pic, not just a set up 😀

not just a set up

It is set up. Set up perfectly!

I've got a 27.2 dropper post. If I ever change frames, that's what I'll be doing 😉

YoKaiser - is that the bloke who works out in Colorado for Pearl Izumi or someone?

By the way £350 for a new front triangle is a bloody good deal if you ask me.

This. I might be p1ssed about my frame breaking, but I'd be biting their hand off as a "non-warranty" offer this is pretty damn good, based on rrp of the frame.

I'm with the OP - as long as the minimum insertion requirement is met the use of a shim should be irrelevant.

Giant supplied all of their nrs frames shimmed for years.

This. I might be p1ssed about my frame breaking, but I'd be biting their hand off as a "non-warranty" offer this is pretty damn good, based on rrp of the frame.

It's a good deal only if you have confidence that the new triangle will have better longevity than the previous one....And if you're good with giving money to a maker that doesn't behave well when the chips are down. Saying "The frames crap but you can have another on the cheap" isn't the most positive noise a maker can make.

Personally, if I felt badly treated by a company the last thing I'd do is send them more money. But I take your point - it's cheaper to replace the triangle than buy a new frame.

My problem would be I simply don't have £350 for the new triangle.

Maybe it's the same case for the op. Especially when, to be honest, he really hasn't done anything wrong.

Don't some manufacturers actually weld/glue a shim into the frame to bring oversizes tubes down to a standard seatpost size?

I feel for the OP.

I honestly think that shim is a legit part in the bike world. Loads of people saying 'oh you naturally void the warranty by using a shim' seems a bit weird to me but oh well...

The only thing I wanted to point out is the exact spot of the crack. I've had a Dixon before (and BTW was running it with a 30.9 - 31.6 shim with no issues). The crack is like 2-3 cms below the seat clamp. The shim and post were inserted much deeper - 10 cms.

In the case of 'not enough insertion' I'd really expect to see a crack much closer to the lower part of the shim/post. In this case it seems like the flex of the shim-post assembly should've been HUGE to actually lead to this crack spot. Trying to think 'mechanically' I'd say that normal 31.6 post would've put very similar/same stress on this very part of the seat tube. I don't really see how the proper shim and 27.2 post would make things worse. But again, I'm not a professional engineer so I may be wrong.

What this does look like is a generally too weak weld/seatpost junction. Which, in theory, might've made the warranty claim a bit more justified?

Using a shim is not a bodge and the OP has been screwed over here. The 'entirely assembled' clause is ridiculous for a company that are happy to have their frames sold mail order, but it will allow them to legally refuse this claim so there's not much more you can do

OP unfortunately your best bet is to just buy the new front triangle and then sell the whole frame and buy something different from a manufacturer/distributor that doesn't weasel out of their warranty obligations. Thanks for posting this though as it's only through threads like this that we can learn who stands by their warranties and who doesn't

Structurally, I'd say no difference between a 100mm 27.2 - 31.6 dia shim & 100mm of 31.6 dia post, & they know it. They are just ducking out of a bit of work by twisting the wording.

Fobbing off going on here as usual.
Freeborn should put this to Devinci & back-up their customer FFS.
What's it going to cost them anyway, as it will just go back to Devinci.

Have to agree that warranty wording sucks. I take it as you can't even change your own tyres!

If the op sends the grand in and gets the same response then that's rubbish. I certain won't buy a Devinci based on this.

A shim is a bodge.

Nice bike.... wait a minute its a Giant. I'm out!

Why? You can't get a Thomson seatpost in a D-shaped hole

But I don't like the seat so changing that would render the warranty invalid. 🙂

But I don't like the seat so changing that would render the warranty invalid.

Well, it's a moot point, as I will knacker the warranty when I fit different wheels* 🙁

*Possibly.

talking again about head-set reducers and seatpost shims...

this is Knolly Warranty Info:

"It does not cover damage caused by the use or installation of non-recommended parts e.g forks that exceed the maximum recommended travel length, [b]seat post shims, head-set reducers[/b], non-approved rear shocks etc"

http://www.knollybikes.co.uk/knollywarrantyin.html

Freeborn sold me a head-set reducer with the frame but for them using a setpost shim is a crime 😀

Serious brands (like Knolly) have serious warranty info, CHEATERS like Devinci will cheat you whenever they can, with the COLLABORATION of Freeborn

I don't understand - why have you not sent the frame back to them?

All these warranties are to a greater or lesser extent cop outs. A shim may, in some cases, cause extra stress around the weld. Longer travel front forks may increase the load at the front enough to cause a weld to fail.
The frame manufacturer isn't going to work out exactly what force will result in a failure, and how that related to shim size or fork travel.
Therefore, the easy option is to say no shims, no extra travel.

What have Freeborn got to do with Devinci's warranty wording?

Think your getting confused!

if you can't afford a new one i would bond the shim into it and see how long it lasts

seems peculiar that its cracked along the edge of a weld even bikes that dont have a shim have been known to crack along the edge of a weld,

I don't understand - why have you not sent the frame back to them?

Because it will cost him a fortune and they've already told him there's unlikely to be any point. We've been through this.

thanks grum

What have Freeborn got to do with Devinci's warranty wording?

Think your getting confused!

Hi Mosey

Freeborn have assumed the decisión of Devinci with no doubt, I have asked them the exact point where Devinci says that I can not use a shim and they told me that the point 8 is very clear about that. I have read that point several times (and the others too) and the only thing that I read about seatpost is the minium insert.

Devinci and Freeborn are in the same boat on this

All these warranties are to a greater or lesser extent cop outs. A shim may, in some cases, cause extra stress around the weld. Longer travel front forks may increase the load at the front enough to cause a weld to fail.
The frame manufacturer isn't going to work out exactly what force will result in a failure, and how that related to shim size or fork travel.
Therefore, the easy option is to say no shims, no extra travel

This is what Giant tried to argue but on a similar note there was no rider weight limit for the bike. So I could have been 20stone heavier and it would have been okay but change one seatpost for another voided the warranty. Just makes the manufacturers look stupid.

May be the most famous british bike Brand is Orange, at least here in Spain

Please, watch this:

[b]FAQ — What size seat post/front mech or bottom bracket will fit my bike?[/b]

http://orangebikes.co.uk/support/faq/useful_frame_dimensions

Here's a thought (and I have read all the posts!)...

Could it be their offer is a default position for warranty issues where costs would be incurred by both parties?

Saves hassle for them, for you, and for £350 you get a new front triangle at your door. They probably make no profit on the sale, but save costs of investigation and the fact they've indicated they're not likely to side with you, could be a fair (as mentioned before, a default position) compromise.

Yes you've been sitched slightly in their position on the shim.business, but unless you're prepared to spend money & time perusing your claim, I'd take the £350 new triangle.

There's a phrase "suck it up", could be time to do this take the offer and just learn from it.

Good luck, but make a decision!!

Yes you've been sitched slightly in their position on the shim.business, but unless you're prepared to spend money & time perusing your claim, I'd take the £350 new triangle.

I put you some words of other who have perfectly shown my feels:

[b]"Personally, if I felt badly treated by a company the last thing I'd do is send them more money"[/b]

Hence my suggestion of "suck it up" and learn from it.

It's the best thing to do sometimes; look after your own interest rather than getting angry about a situation you have little control over, or as it appears, prepared to try to take control of.

Of course, you could persue it, fight it, badger them, make them take notice.

You could lose though, be more angry and more out of pocket.

Anyhow, was just a thought.

Yep if you fight it and do whatever you will still probably end up without a working bike.

This is what Giant tried to argue but on a similar note there was no rider weight limit for the bike. So I could have been 20stone heavier and it would have been okay but change one seatpost for another voided the warranty. Just makes the manufacturers look stupid.

So, if you had left swapped the seatpost to original before taking it back to Giant, they would have warrantied it?

I still can't believe, as in I am surprised a company the size of Giant tried to dodge the bullet, that they used this as a cop out.

I'd say this part of the warranty wording is more relevant than the ambiguous seat reference;

* Parts not supplied by devinci with the bicycle or not indicated in
the user’s manual for all frames or the technical manual for the
frames with double suspension were used;

If you spend £350 on a new triangle would you use the shim again or would you get the correct size post?

I've got a number of problems with this thread - Mostly in the thread title. The use of the word 'cheat' is just bloody stupid. The OP has published that on the internet. And it's been picked up quite rightly by other parties implicated in this. What we have here is classic I warranty issues between customer and seller that need to be sorted out between the two parties AWAY from the internet. At least at first. Posting inflammatory 'statements' on our forum using words like 'cheat' is going to spoil my Sunday. I'm editing the title of the post and the mods will be keeping a very close watch on this thread.

Don't be stupid when writing forum titles, no matter how upset you are.

Oooh, can we suggest new thread titles?

Grim shim & warranty slim - out on a limb?

Hi Mark

I recognize that your title is far better than mine.

My apologies

"Used a shim, feel a bit dim - bikes in the bin"

"Another manufacturers who passes the buck"

I suspect this will be locked very shortly. You may be out of frame but the social outcry has cost far more damage to Devinci. I've looked at their bikes in the past but I wont be buying one.

@ Jamie. Yes and what's worse is I had a clean out and dumped the seat post a month or so beforehand. Giant offered a good will gesture of an aluminium frame but the very fact I could have bought it cheaper in a shop annoyed me. They also picked up that the wheels were different and summarised it was probably as a result of an accident. In fact it was a dry tubeless setup (I had wheel sets coming out of my ears at that time - 19 spares wheels for 9 bikes).

Any and every straw grabbed. All dismissed apart from the change of seatpost. At the end of the day its seems to explain why their "bikes are such good value for money" and generally discounted.

Hi pjm84

I think that we, the customers, have the responsibility to relate these cases to avoid abuses of bike brands or to know which brands are "honest"

Of course telling always the truth

In the aid of balance, and apologies for the mild thread hijack, but would be interested to know if pjm84's experience was an isolated incident, or more pervasive.

I have dealt with Freeborn a lot. Like Duir I had one of the original Spitfires with the bushing problems and was offered a very good price on the Dixon. After a year one of the bottle bosses was coming loose. I sent the frame back to Joe at Freeborn and he fixed the boss, put in a completelty new pivot kit, serviced and added a volume reducer to the shock. There was no charge for any of it.

In my experience Freeborn will do the best they can for their customers. If DeVinci aren't going to support warranty claims for shimmed seatposts then that is their decision. It is hard on a small business like Freeborn, expecting them to take a £350 hit on a new front triangle and then slating them on here when you don't get your way.

Its pretty common for expensive warranty claims to require the return of the broken part. I would have expected Freeborn to give you an honest appraisal of the warranty issue and more than likely to build your frame back up and service your shock while they were at it.

The other thing you need to accept is when you buy an expensive piece of sports equipment from the far side of Europe, you might have to send it back if something goes wrong. Its frustrating having to strip the frame to get it looked at but its the only way to get it sorted.

The other thing you need to accept is when you buy an expensive piece of sports equipment from the far side of Europe, you might have to send it back if something goes wrong. Its frustrating having to strip the frame to get it looked at but its the only way to get it sorted.

Hi Shandy

I have said several times that I was disposed to send the frame to the UK. But after they saw that I a used a shim the have not asked me to send back the frame

It gets worse....

I had a long conversation with the Warranty manager who provided the "unofficial" response. I told him if it was cosmetic then I wasn't interested in a replacement. Its a MTB for FFS.

A promise of an XRAY was offered to support the unofficial line and he would ring me back the next day once he had set the wheels in motion. He also suggested maybe riding a 22" carbon to reduce the flex to this area and he had a frame showing in Europe which he would try and track down and see what the cost price was as an alternative option.

He never rung me back. I chased him a dozen times, left messages / emails. I spoke to his staff and they said sorry its a conversation between you and him and we cant do anything. Still have his number on my mobile.

I have said several times that I was disposed to send the frame to the UK. But after they saw that I a used a shim the have not asked me to send back the frame

Presumably that is still an option unless you have fallen out with them completely?!

Presumably that is still an option unless you have fallen out with them completely?!

Now I am not disposed to send them the frame, unless they send me a new one before

I have absolutely lost the reliability on this people and I think that an objective review of the frame is not possible after this thread

I'd say this part of the warranty wording is more relevant than the ambiguous seat reference;

* Parts not supplied by devinci with the bicycle or not indicated in
the user’s manual for all frames or the technical manual for the
frames with double suspension were used;

I bought only the frame, it is very dificult to use a bike without a seatpost, wheels, fork...

Take the new front triangle offer. Sell the whole frame with new front triangle. Buy a frame from a manufacturer with good customer service that has proper warranty.
Good luck.