[Closed] Warranty issue with DEVINCI/FREEBORN

Standard reply. You won't find many companies who will process a warranty claim without physically seeing the item in question. You chose to buy from a supplier over the Internet in another country. You should expect to have to send it back in the event of a problem. So that, to me at least, seems totally fair.

one spanish friend broke a ragley bought in jejames and they did not ask to send back the frame to the UK...

Certainly a significant amount of bikes stipulate that the bike should be assembled by a qualified bike mechanic. Every manual supplies with every frame I have ever brought or sold has said the same. Or at least that it should be professionally checked before use.

Quite a price difference between a Ragley and a Devinci. Plus there's could have been an out and out warranty. This case is not as such due to the shim.

But that is the exception rather than the rule in my experience. They would have been perfectly reasonable to have asked for it back.

Send it to them and speak to them. Although they have no reason to give you a new frame for free based on what you have said hereyou may well be surprised. If you don't send it to them and start the possible warranty progress how can you know what the outcome will be?!

the answer from them have been very clear: NO WARRANTY

new front triangle by 350 pounds and other costs...

definitely i prefer to repare and strengthen it by a welder here in spain: 100 euros

Snapped a kona using a shim. They warrantied the frame.
Buy big brand tat.......

Changed my seat post to a Thomson on my Giant Advanced XTC and this allowed Giant to refuse the warranty. Component change! Unofficially it was a flex issue and nothing to worry about. Officially it was a frame failure.

Gave up with Giant and spent the cash (£££££) elsewhere and this persuaded similar sized buddies (ex rowers) to do like wise. I'll add Devinci to the list.

I think the OP is right to be sorely annoyed. He's spent a bunch of money on parts, used a long shim and built the bike correctly. The frame warranty doesn't mention shims not being permissible (and given the limited sizes and popularity of dropper posts it's not an unusual requirement for a shim to be needed) and given the bike came without a post, why wouldn't you use one. Buy a printer, and the instructions will say things like "don't dip the printer in water", but a bike frame has a warranty with an unwritten clause? It's nonsense.

I'll give some examples of good service - I bought an Orange frame from the shop I worked in. The headset I bought was out of tolerance slightly, and on installation split the head tube. Orange warranteed the frame on the basis the head tube "was tight" also. Replaced without any hassle. I tore the head tube off another while riding. Again, replaced without hassle. The only question I was asked was "what happened"? Oh and both Oranges were supplied with seat posts shimmed to fit the frame!

From the same shop a customer bought a frame, took it out front and dropped it on its head loading it into his car. Giant, with no pressure offered a new front end for a nominal fee (75 quid).

If the OP felt the distro/frame manufacturer was working with him trying to solve the issue rather than just rejecting, maybe we wouldn't be reading a stressed first post.

For the record, I hate shims. And never use them.

I'll add Devinci to the list

and I will add Giant to mine, thanks 😉

ask them for proof that a shimmed seat post makes your frame more likely to brake provided everything else is the same with regards to insertion depth etc.

I bet they can't prove a correctly fitted shim makes a difference.

I would not trust a re-welded alu frame. Repaired carbon or steel maybe but not alu. £350 for a new front triangle is good deal and a much safer option I would have thought

Didn't Giant used to make bikes that you invalidated the warranty if you used the "correct" sized seatpost- they came with a shim and you had to use a 27.2?

I think it's pretty ropey tbh, seatpost shims have been around forever, so it's not too shocking that people would use one, and while mechanically I don't like the idea I think it's pretty reasonable for people to expect that parts that are so commonplace will be basically safe.

I would not trust a re-welded alu frame. Repaired carbon or steel maybe but not alu. £350 for a new front triangle is good deal and a much safer option I would have thought

thanks for the advice Dan, but i am sure that you can understand that i have not any wishes to spend more money on them

Pjm84...

Looks like Giant have changed positions quite radically. That's a real shame. They used to be fantastic to deal with.

johnny really knows how I feel...

Changed my seat post to a Thomson on my Giant Advanced XTC and this allowed Giant to refuse the warranty. Component change!

😯

There's a guy on here, MidlandTrailquestsGraham, who broke a few frames at that point and had them successfully repaired. Have a look for his threads.
What is the minimum insertion for your frame? Surely a 4" shim would be enough? And if it doesn't say to the contrary in the warranty... Poor service IMO.

By the way, I think we know each other McGowan... I'm in Donosti.

This was a couple of years ago so they may have changed. They lost a few customers so short sighted by Giant and Devinci will do the same.

I just took it on the chin because I didn't have the time to pursue and life is too short. I will not buy a Giant again and it gave me the excuse to move across to 29ers.

I think we know each other McGowan... I'm in Donosti.

Hi Bob!

Yes, we rode together ¿5? years ago

We wait you in Olarrain!

Pjm...

My good experience with Giant will predate your bad sadly. I've been out of the industry about 10 years now.

Based on your experience, I wouldn't buy Giant now either. The only weapon we have is to with-hold sales from the bad guys. Your experience is particularly bad, and I can't imagine that would hold up in legally - it's like warranting an iPhone on the cable! Ridiculous.

They lost a few customers so short sighted by Giant and Devinci will do the same.

they have lost already one customer as one of my friends was thinking about buy a Dixon...

McGowan, I'm in Olarrain quite a lot but on a road bike... But I want to get back on mtb a bit more. Are you doing the martxa from Benta Haundi this year?
Anyway, sorry to derail the thread 😉

But I want to get back on mtb a bit more. Are you doing the martxa from Benta Haundi this year?

of course, this year is the 25th anniversary of the "martxa", we can not fail 😀

Ok I'll check the date and try to get some other guys to come this time. It's a great route. Hopefully see you there (and good luck with the frame :wink:)

Hang on, side from anything else, they said that damage is [u]usually[/u] caused by not inserting enough seatpost. So they think that is what you did, but they want to see it still because they don't know...
Surely if they want to see it, that means they might change their minds, make some other offer or whatever. But it certainly isn't "NO WARRANTY!" as you put it.

It isn't clear cut, so send it back and let them give you an actual answer because at the moment it sounds like the only one stopping a warranty claim even getting started, is you.

If I buy a bike and fit my own headset does that void the warranty?

Kind of, if it's a Yeti. DIY is frowned upon. The Handbook clearly states that

[b]"This warranty is void if the bicycle was not assembled by an authorised Yeti dealer"[/b]

I'm sure other brands say something similar; who reads the small print?

You tried a bodge, your bike broke perhaps because of the bodge, you tried to claim and the bodge was noticed.

I'd be pissed off too but more with myself than the retailer/manufacturer.

The list of exceptions/conditions on that warranty means it's pretty much worthless.

I'd be tempted to go down the 'not fit for purpose' route which I think is based on EU regulations. You've got to send it back to them first though surely.

Hang on, side from anything else, they said that damage is usually caused by not inserting enough seatpost. So they think that is what you did, but they want to see it still because they don't know...
Surely if they want to see it, that means they might change their minds, make some other offer or whatever. But it certainly isn't "NO WARRANTY!" as you put it.

It isn't clear cut, so send it back and let them give you an actual answer because at the moment it sounds like the only one stopping a warranty claim even getting started, is you.

I think that you are wrong

Before asking me anything they told me that I could send it back to the UK but saying that there were not too many possibilities. Before asking for photos or knowing what parts I have been using! After that it was clear for me that they had not too many wishes...

So think about it, send the frame to the UK and back again almost certainly without warranty accepted... for that it's better for me to accept the 350 pounds "offer"

Once I prove with photos that the cause was not Little insert of the seatpost (as they said firstly) now they say that the cause was the shim. Ok, does the Devinci's owner manual avoid the use of a shim like some other brands do? NO, NO and NO.

They are not asking me to send back the frame again to see it better... the only offer is to pay for another front part of the frame

"This warranty is void if the bicycle was not assembled by an authorised Yeti dealer"

I'm sure other brands say something similar; who reads the small print?

i think that this is not compatible with selling frames by mail order like Freeborn. But of course, selling by mail order means more money for them...

You tried a bodge, your bike broke perhaps because of the bodge, you tried to claim and the bodge was noticed.
I'd be pissed off too but more with myself than the retailer/manufacturer.

Hardly a bodge - he didn't make his own shim as plenty of folk here advocate.

I think that's rubbish if it doesn't expressly exclude it in the warranty. Analogies about "it doesn't say don't ride it into a wall" fall flat because it will say that it doesn't cover crash damage.

Have you actually sent the frame back to them then? Have they actually rejected it, or is this just a note to say that's the usual cause?

I'm not quite clear from previous posts, did you tell them you were using a shim, and they didn't emotion anything about warranty?

grum - Member
I'd be tempted to go down the 'not fit for purpose' route which I think is based on EU regulations. You've got to send it back to them first though surely.

That wont get far:
"Did you use the correct size of components?"
"No"
"Next!"

I'm not quite clear from previous posts, did you tell them you were using a shim, and they didn't emotion anything about warranty?

Yes, I told them I was using a shim and that I have the invoice where they can see that it is a correct one (lenght and diameter) and not one made by me with a can.

I think that's rubbish if it doesn't expressly exclude it in the warranty.

Although the crashing into a wall analogy is a poor one the notion that warranties can't be exhaustive is correct.

So at the crux they asked you to send the frame in for warranty inspection and you declined. Instead you showed them photos and / or told them you had been using a shim and then they said no go and offered you a discount front for 25% of the full frame price and you feel hard done by?

That wont get far:
"Did you use the correct size of components?"
"No"
"Next!"

Yes, I told them I was using a shim and that I have the invoice where they can see that it is a correct one (lenght and diameter) and not one made by me with a can.

Dunno about legally but morally they are on very shaky ground IMO.

Although the crashing into a wall analogy is a poor one the notion that warranties can't be exhaustive is correct.

And fair in this instance? Considering plenty of people here have just said "my god man, of course it broke, by using a production shim that's been around for decades you virtually sawed through your own weld!"

Some odd opinions on here sometimes.

Dunno about legally but morally they are on very shaky ground IMO.

Business in shaky morals shocker.

So at the crux [b]they asked you to send the frame in for warranty inspection and you declined[/b]. Instead you showed them photos and told them you had been using a shim and then they said no go and offered you a discount front for 25% of the full frame price and you feel hard done by?

That's not true.

They asked me to send frame without knowing almost nothing about the problem and saying that there were Little possibilities.

So before do that I explained them with photos all the problem. After do that they have not asked again to send back the frame.

I think that the normal process in this cases is to send all the information with photos before send back the frame.

And fair in this instance? Considering plenty of people here have just said "my god man, of course it broke, by using a production shim that's been around for decades you virtually sawed through your own weld!"

Fair is a movable feast as this thread proves.

You're now guilty yourself of using an analogy so exaggerated as to lose any meaning.

Do you actually think warranties could be exhaustive?

When I worked in a Giant dealer around 70% of Giants came with a shim from new, and a sticker on the seat tube letting you know this. Evil hardtails were the same.

If you had brought that frame in to me to be warrantied and the manufacturer said "no, you used a shim" I'd be phenomenally embarrassed to have to tell you that you weren't getting a new front end. I had a Giant crack there (no shim, way below minimum insertion) and they warrantied it based solely on photos. I even got to keep the rear shock off my old frame to do with as I pleased.

A shim is not a bodge, it is a widely available part and I think Gravity Dropper even usually supply them with their posts to fit whatever frame you have.

You probably should send it back to them if they want you to, but if they still say no warranty then I'd be taking it down the legal route.

Does this same rule apply to people using step down headsets to take 1 1/8" steerers in 1.5" headset cups? Or using the plastic spacers on a hollowtech 2 BB to make it fit a 68mm BB shell (since that's [i]clearly[/i] a part that doesn't fit the frame), or a BB30 to HT2 reducer? Absolutely crackers.

And I believe that if you were on here about 5 years ago or more that there were almost monthly threads about shocking service from Freeborn regarding Ellsworths, so I'm not surprised to see this if I'm honest.

Do you actually think warranties could be exhaustive?

Speaking about shims? of course, as it is a part that is very extended in bike's world.

And some SERIOUS brands do that, like Scott:

"Never use another seatpost diameter than 31.6mm or try to use a shim/
reducer between seatpost and frame."

I think that the normal process in this cases is to send all the information with photos before send back the frame.

Yup. And they've clearly seen enough to satisfy them that user error was the cause or at least a contributing factor and therefore not a warranty issue. Whether this is actually the case we'll never know.

Does this same rule apply to people using step down headsets to take 1 1/8" steerers in 1.5" headset cups? Or using the plastic spacers on a hollowtech 2 BB to make it fit a 68mm BB shell (since that's clearly a part that doesn't fit the frame), or a BB30 to HT2 reducer? Absolutely crackers.

➡

You're now guilty yourself of using an analogy so exaggerated as to lose any meaning.
Do you actually think warranties could be exhaustive?

I didn't use an analogy at all, I (mildly) exaggerated what a number of people on this thread have said, which to paraphrase is that of course the OP's frame broke that was guaranteed with a shim, which I think is bollocks, and if folk genuinely think that it seems pretty off it isn't explicit.

If its something very rare then fair enough, but that is not the opinion of many here.

If the headset was to damage the frame - probably
Plastic spacers are an adjustment and part of the BB design - N/A
If the reducer was to damage the frame - probably

Yup. And they've clearly seen enough to satisfy them that [b]user error[/b] was the cause or at least a contributing factor and therefore not a warranty issue. Whether this is actually the case we'll never know.

Sorry? I have not broken any rule of the owner's guide of devinci

Are you saying that, for example, Gravity Dropper is selling unsafe products? Why do not anybody denounce them?

If its something very rare then fair enough, but that is not the opinion of many here.

I'm with njee on that- if it were a part that depended on something very unusual to make it fit (and I'm struggling to think of any, maybe a 25.4mm handlebar shimmed up to 31.8mm where the shim is tiny and stressed at both ends) I'd not be surprised but voiding a warranty because of a part as common as a seatpost shim is daft.

mcgowan, please stop! As has been said already, the list of warranty exclusions is not exhaustive.

Gravity Droppers product doesn't even figure here, it is designed to fit in a 27.2 seat tube, you chose to attempt to run it in a 31.6

I'm not saying you made an error, that's a moot point. I'm saying that they are clearly satisfied that you did which is why they've taken it no further.

[b]That wont get far:
"Did you use the correct size of components?"
"No"
"Next!"[/b]

"Does this same rule apply to people using step down headsets to take 1 1/8" steerers in 1.5" headset cups?"

[b]If the headset was to damage the frame - probably[/b]

Hi Legend

Do you know that Freeborn sold me an adapter (tapered to 1 1/8) with the frame as I told them that I had a 1 1/8 fork?

Gravity Droppers product doesn't even figure here, it is designed to fit in a 27.2 seat tube, you chose to attempt to run it in a 31.6

you are not very serious

checkout this, the oficial web:

http://gravitydropper.com/gravitydropper-classic/

Seatpost size... only for 27'2???? they give you the shim without paying more!!!

Couldn't care less about the headset, your headtube hasn't cracked and if it did you'd be straight back to the shop that supplied you the frame and headset making it their problem.

GD don't know the spec/limitations of every frame that the post will be fitted to, it has nothing to do with GD

Couldn't care less about the headset, your headtube hasn't cracked and if it did you'd be straight back to the shop that supplied you the frame and headset making it their problem.

but tell me... did I use the correct size of components following the advices of Freeborn as they sold me the adapter for the fork???

Crikey 😕 This is a bit of a conundrum isn't it?! Lots of misinterpretation possibly caused by translation and lots of jumping to conclusions...

I have a question for mcgowan: What would you have Freeborn /Devinci do about your issue?

At best we are second guessing, so once you answer the above, advice and suggestions as to how you may be able to achieve your aim will doubtless flow forth. From there, you can make your wish into an action and give it a go. You may also consider the possibility that you may need to change your wish.

Good luck.

Mcgowan, what do you want to happen?

I assume you want a free replacement?

Stop complaining here about what may or may not happen and just send in the damn frame with a nice letter and a nice phone call.

If after sending it in it is not warrantied then consider contacting Devinci directly with a nice letter outlining your concerns.

The least productive thing you can be doing at the moment is whinging on the internet after on quick phone call.

Again, best of luck but do not go in all guns blazing cursing and criticizing! You never know they may turn out to be reasonable folk who sort you out regardless of what small print might say- you never know until you try!

I have a question for mcgowan: What would you have Freeborn /Devinci do about your issue?

As they say that the shim was the reason of the problem and the owners guide of Devinci do not avoid them (despite it is a very common part in bike's world)... they have to satisfy the life warranty of the frame.

Also they can change the owners guide avoiding the use of shims to prevent more cases like this, they only have to copy some other brands:

"Never use another seatpost diameter than 31.6mm or try to use a shim/
reducer between seatpost and frame."

Scott: clear and concise

This conversation is pointless. You need to send the frame in.

Excellent, thanks mcgown.

I wholeheartedly support the proposed plan of action as made by danw above and suggest that you embrace it with positivity, enthusiasm and tenacity.

😀

but tell me... did I use the correct size of components following the advices of Freeborn as they sold me the adapter for the fork???

As I'm not a Devinci employee, I'll have to refer you back to the shop that sold you the frame and headset.

Hi Dan

If I could put here their mails you would see that there is not any possibity and that the door is fully closed by them

I have assumed that I have to repare the frame. I think that this thread can be very useful to people who is riding with shims and thinks it is OK after read the owner's manual

This thread should be closed if you refuse to send the frame and start the warranty process but instead insist on complaining and dragging Devinci/ Freeborn's names through the mud while second guessing what may or may not happen.

Forget the previous emails, start fresh and positive, write a nice letter to accompany the frame when you send it in and go from there.

Even if Freeborn say no, contacting Devinci afterwards with an explanation of why you might still be upset is by far the best thing to do. No-one here can help you with that and all you are doing is trying to ruin their business even though they have not formally refused all possibilities.

P.S. Someone has already linked the Devinci small print saying use of the shim will not be covered under warranty (although a poor translation). Despite this the company/ seller may still warranty the frame at their discretion... if they see this thread then good luck with their discretion!

A thread title like "I have just learned a 27.2-31.6 shim may not be a good idea" would have been a far better thread title than "Cheated by DEVINCI/FREEBORN" if that really is your intention to increase shim awareness on STW

contacting Devinci afterwards with an explanation of why you might still be upset is by far the best thing to do

I have already contacted with Devinci and they told me to speak with Freeborn. I mailed a guy from Devinci in Canada and no reply.

And I will say it AGAIN, I am not refusing to send back the frame: they are not asking that

mcgowan » for example the first thing that they said me was to send the frame from spain and they will decide if they could raclaim under warranty... not a very friendy answer to start

From page 2, come back to us when you've done as requested 🙄

mcgowan » for example the first thing that they said me was to send the frame from spain and they will decide if they could raclaim under warranty... not a very friendy answer to start

From page 2, come back to us when you've done as requested

LoCo, you can put ALL the history, as putting only a part is a Little bit manipulator

No they asked you to send it back, you have not sent it back, they cannot give you a final answer on warranty until you have done this, it's quite simple, or are you trolling?

I agree with Loco. Do the following or this thread should be closed.

Go through Freeborn first.

Put the frame in the post with a letter explaining the situation (not a letter complaining). Keep it simple and some times less information is better. Do this even if they have not asked you to.

If Freeborn do not give a good solution, only then will Devinci be able to help- you have to go through Freeborn first.

The problem you have is that you have started a 5 page thread complaining before trying to properly resolve this... discretion and good will was likely going to be your best friend in this 50/50 situation...

The headset analogy is spot on here I'd say. Would everyone assume use of a reducer headset to void their warranty?

The headset analogy is spot on here I'd say. Would everyone assume use of a reducer headset to void their warranty?

The forces on a headset are very different to a seatpost. Using reducer shims on a headset still leaves the steerer supported at both ends of the head tube. Using a shim on a seatpost leaves the seatpost supported on only the top few inches of the seat tube.

No it's different I'd say Njee, you're not reducing the contact area between the headset cup and the frame and increasing stress on a specific area of the frame, which is what happens if you fit a shim in the frame, like running a post with too little in the frame, the flex in the small diameter post and possible deformation of the shim will add stress to a smaller area of the frame , than the correct size post with a decent amount in the frame.
Not saying it's not warranty, just the anology.

Nick, someone has already linked to Devinci's small print which (though poorly translated) says to use the original seatpost sold with the bike/ frame.

Most things in a warranty small print are there to cover the company and by and large leave a warranty to their discretion I would have said.

These are technicalities though and detracting from the main point...

The main issue is the OP is second guessing Devinci/ Freeborn's judgement/ discretion/ interpretation and has jumped straight in with complaining on an open forum. If he goes through the warranty process with Freeborn then possibly Devinci too and still has no luck after discussing the in and outs of their wording then fine- the problem is the OP seems unwilling to go through the proper process

I'd be surprised if the folk you need to be on best terms with at Freeborn AND Devinci haven't had this thread posted onto them.

If I were you I'd quit quit wasting time, go back to work to do a little overtime to pay for the new frame as you've no doubt shot yourself in the foot.

I was looking at getting an Atlas and talked to Freeborn about using a shim to fit my 30.9 Reverb

They were very clear to me that this would invalidate the warranty

not that that helps!

My experience of Freeborn for warranty issues was the total opposite of this. When I had bother with 2 seperate Mythics (the ones with the dodgy bushing system) they couldn't have been more helpful. Eventually they gave me a Dixon for just the difference in price.

Then when I broke the Dixon (snapped at chainstay) Joe at Freeborn, without seeing the frame offered several solutions on the phone. Sadly as I had stripped the paint off the Dixon I couldn't get it under warrant so didn't bother. However Joe offered me a cheap chainstay or a great deal on a new frame and it didn't have to be a Devinci either.

So for me you are being very harsh on a very reputable company. If you work with them and send it back for analysis I am sure they would do something to help you out.

Then again, after a post like this I wouldn't help you!

Good luck!

PS I used a shimmed GD on my Dixon with no problems. What I did was to cut the lip off a second shim and fit to the bottom of the seatpost so you make a stack of shims, that way the GD is the correct width for it's full length and that solves the issue.

I will explain again as some people is manipulating the reality:

- i write to freeborn saying that i have broke my Dixon's seat tube

- they reply my saying that in most cases is due to less than 3" of seatpost being in the frame. If I want to progress the warranty I have to send them the frame

- I have been using a seatpost and a shim with a correct lenght so i send photos proving that

- after 2 weeks they reply me that the use of the shim is the reason of the failure. The do not tell me anything about send frame them to investigate more and better. The only offer is to pay 350 pouds for a front triangle.

- i replay them telling where says Devinci that I can not use a shim

- they replay me that it is very clear at point 8 of the owners manual. I read again the manual and there is nothing about that. The only thing that says the manual is about to insert a minium leght inside the frame.

- i reply them that I fell cheated

So, it is not true that I were not disposed to send back the frame

What's the minimum insertion amount that the manual states?

I was looking at getting an Atlas and talked to Freeborn about using a shim to fit my 30.9 Reverb

They were very clear to me that this would invalidate the warranty

may be I am not the first with this problem and they had changed the owner's manual. That's OK but they should comply with older frames (2011)

What's the minimum insertion amount that the manual states?

"your seat post has minium insertion line wich limits the maxium height you can safely reach"

No numbers. This is an evident mistake as all the frames are not equal

repeated