[Closed] Warranty issue - minimum seat post insertion

That's your main defence then is it not? If they want you to do something specific, they need to ask you. No? The other stuff is just noise at this stage.

Yes, I'm still waiting for them to confirm where exactly I should have found this information.

I really don't think they have a leg to stand on. There is nothing in the paperwork they provide (or should have provided), there doesn't appear to be anything obvious on their website, (even the tuition vidoes for fitting reverbs, KS levs etc dont state this 50mm rule).

Be firm with them without being offensive and be persistent. You've followed their guidelines and at no point have they contacted you, issued a statement, press-release, recall etc regarding this 50mm rule.

I'd say based on all the info here you have a 3 pronged attack...

1. No documentation was provided with the frame that detailed the minimum insertion depth.

2. They sell it with OEM seatpost that would not allow you to comply with their conditions anyway.

3. It's a crap design and they're being shitty about it, and should be nice to their customers.

Obviously the outcome (and speed of outcome) may depend on exactly how you word all that but I think you have a pretty good case for getting a replacement.

just out of interest, how did you pay?

I like it!

Dear Mr Commencal

It's a crap design so stop being so shitty about it, you should be nicer to your customers.

Regards
James

I think Paypal but will check.

yes that's exactly the wording I was thinking, if they don't cave after that then they must have hearts of stone...

🙂

I don't know how the Credit Card thing works, or if there is a time limit but I've heard mention that CC gives you additional options for kicking up a fuss?

I have a commencal whinge too. Bought a meta v4 new, boxed from a bike trader on eBay (individual rather than company) and the seat tube rocker failed at the weld after 3 rides (5 hours riding tops). It took a month for them to charge me €100 for a new one after many many emails.
As it was clearly not made properly I thought they might throw me a bone and replace it FOC, I would have no issue paying if I wrapped it round a tree or sonething...

I was beginning to wonder if they'd sold on that 'cracknfail' trademark they bought from cannondale in the 1990s. Apparently not

I have a meta AM HT and I have a reverb 420 in, it goes way past the junction, so I hope that it stays in one piece!

Oh well, time will tell it is a 2016 model.

[quote=jamesfts ]Frame was bought directly from Commencal in August last year.

Direct as in direct from France? I'm thinking about EU consumer law here, but not sure how that applies in France or cross-border.

The thing is, you have rights under EU law regarding expected lifespan of products - they don't get to make their own decisions on what's reasonable for that (which is always the problem with a warranty).

The problem is that Comical are based in Andorra, not France...

Commencal are Andorra based, no idea what laws will be in effect there

Ah, in which case ignore that - not EU, so there's doubtless no consumer law protecting you - I'd keep trying being reasonable with them and explaining what has been suggested on here, but I was suggesting legal, because from the sounds of things they're not at all interested in honouring the warranty on this, and unless you have some legal route to force them to honour it, then what they say goes.

At which point the only remaining possibility I can see is a social media campaign.

Unfortunately I think you're right.

By the sounds of things they have decided they don’t want to warranty the frame, so chances are (regardless of emails sent, threats made etc) I'm not going to persuade them to change their mind

The point is they have no reason not to warranty it other than they don’t want to.

Bit of a bummer this thread. I recently got a Meta AM 2012 off a mate, who actually got it as a warranty replacement for a snapped carbon Meta 55. He had no problems getting that replacement.

I'm a bit bigger(fatter) than him, so i'd better make sure my post is long enough!! I was gonna buy a dropper for it after christmas as well.

I got it well cheap though, so couldn't really complain if owt went wrong!!

[quote=jamesfts ]The point is they have no reason not to warranty it other than they don’t want to.

It shows how much a Commencal warranty is worth. I'm sure there are plenty of people on other forms of social media who'd be interested to know that.

Time for Twitter etc? Sounds like they're being a right cunch of bunts 🙁

Depending on their response to this morning's email (which pointed out a lot of the things brought up in this thread) that may be my next and only course of action.

Seems a bit of a ****ty, childish thing to do but it'd probably make me feel better until I can find a replacement frame.

Anyway, [childish][i] they started it! [/i][/childish]

Seems a bit of a ****ty, childish thing to do

well, if [i]they [/i]won't behave like adults...

Hang on, hang on. There's always the 'escalate to the MD' route to redemption if you don't get satisfaction.

Go straight for the "Dear Max" option?

OP, in the pic you posted with the crack, how fard own did your seatpost actually go? Seems like a lot of Commie bashing going on and i just want to make sure it wasn't an error on your part before joining in.

125mm, 35mm passed the 90mm they specify in their owners manual (that I didn't receive).

As mentioned previously I'd like to think this is a one off and wouldn't necessarily be worried about their frames cracking* my problem is with their attitude and how they have handled the situation.

*Googling doesn't turn up much in the way of failures plus I bloody hope not as I've got a v3 sat in the shed too!

jamesfts - Member
Go straight for the "Dear Max" option?

No, you need to let the plebs further down the food chain do their bits first. Raise with customer service/warranty or whatever they're called, if refused escalate to 'warranty manager/customer service director, if refused escalate to MD.

If you end up at the MD, I'd email summary details then follow up by phone. Be polite, firm, persistent and organised. Have all the details to hand and a time line of what's gone on.

DO NOT SHOUT or be rude or swear or whatever. Just keep going until they give up. In short, just pretend you're the love child of TJ and Moly 😀

just pretend you're the love child of TJ and Moly

*shudders*

brant - Member

The problem I have with frames of this style (which is why I prefer a bent top tube) is that this style isn't really a dropped top tube, it's an extended seat tube.

Worried about my On-One Fatty now, I wonder who designed it.................

If anyone is still interested this was my email to Commencal.

Mickael

Further to our previous email could you please tell me precisely, as a consumer where I would have been informed of this "Your seatpost into the seat tube beyond its minimum 5cm below the top tube” quoted from your previous email. No documentation was provided with the frame that detailed this as the minimum insertion depth.

I’ve gone through the owners manual and have attached the relevant page to this email. The only information printed regarding the seatpost simply states that the minimum insert for a Commencal frame is 90mm - if this is indeed the case I have in fact been exceeding this amount by around 30mm - please see attached photo of my seatpost showing 120mm insert depth. As I have been running more than the required length of seatpost recommended in the manual I believe you are contractually obliged to honour the warranty.

I believe you sell the Meta HT full build with a 350mm static seatpost, to achieve the “5cm below toptube” would require 250mm inserted into the frame leaving only 10cm externally. Based on the numbers you have given me I do not understand how a rider of the recommended height (5’10”-6’2” for larger frames) can set this bike up correctly with the post you provide. I also do not understand how you have arrived at the conclusion that I mounted my seatpost incorrectly. My seatpost was well within the guidelines set out in your user manual so please explain why you are not offering to honour the warranty?

As a long standing customer of Commencal who has more recently bought 2 frames in as many years I’m extremely disappointed in how you’re handling this situation. I’ve always recommended your products to fellow riders and now feel let down and would hate for someone I’ve recommend you to be treated in the same way.

I was planning on ordering my daughter one of your balance bikes and would happily have continued through your range of children's bikes however if this is how you treat your customers I shall be looking elsewhere for our bikes in the future.

I would really like to resolve the situation and continue to be a happy Commencal customer as I do like your bikes, however if you are not prepared to do this I feel the only thing I can do is to take advice on how to resolve this issue in a more formal manner.

I await your response.

Regards,

After waiting all day I got the following reply.

Hi James,

The insertion of the seatpost must be of 16,5cm on a frame in size L,

Have a good day,

Best regards

So aside from ignoring 99% of the email that'll be the third different measurement they've given me and they STILL haven't been able to tell me how/where I should have found this information.

I think I'll have to get on the phone tomorrow as this is getting stupid.

It doesn't look like great customer service to me. I can't remember seeing many Commencals about so don't know much about them. The only one that springs to mind is the one I mentioned in a previous thread:

Saw a youth at Whinlatter riding a Commencal. It looked quite handy, as did he. We were on the south loop at that section where the up and down cross over and there are (were?) two tiny north shore rampy things on the downhill section.

He teed himself up for the harder one with the actual proper drop at the end. He landed it beautifully, but alas his down tube and top tube both broke just behind the head tube and left him riding a unicycle and spare handlebar into the dirt.

He smacked his face up a bit and was sat there looking well dazed, confused and understandably hurt. He'd done so well, poor little mite.

He had a Commencal. Neither of my kids ever will.

HTHC

That was hardly a measured response to your well worded email. Has put me completely off buy anything from them.
Try on the phone, more difficult (but not impossible) to be that ignorant when speaking to someone rather than hiding behind a computer.

This is the sort of situation that makes you wish that there were mountain bike journalists who will investigate.

If someone from stw (for example) wrote to them and asked for an answer for publication I suspect there would be a fuller response.

have you social media'ed them? Twitter and/or facebook them with that poor response to your claim.

Well that's a bit rough and I know how frustrated you must feel, had a similar situation with the jokers at Trek a few years ago.

But looking on the bright side, it'll make an awesomely on-trend long and low frame for somebody if you do Brant's first modification.

Phoning them will be on my jobs for tomorrow, I've asked email monkey for contact details of their warranty manager/customer service director though I'm not holding my breath and expect to be sat listening to hold music before getting repeatedly cut off.

I've purposely not gone to social media yet as I'd like to keep the moral high ground as long as possible or at least until they've give me a definitive "eff off".

They've already done that repeatedly from what I can see. Extremely shoddy behaviour from Commencal and I agree with wwaswas regarding journalists.

Stw *is* social media.

You'll get far more reads, reach, on here than twitter or Facebook.

Why not tweet the MD and founder, just to let him know how well your being treated

https://twitter.com/maxcommencal

You could tweet him a link to this thread.

I wouldn't hold your breath for any bike mag to take up your cause though

[quote=chakaping ]You could tweet him a link to this thread.
I wouldn't hold your breath for any bike mag to take up your cause though

we could all tweet him a link 😉

I've tweeted @commencal about this. Very shoddy back up I think, hope it helps.

This all seems exceptionally harsh.

When owning and cracking several commencals in the past I was dealt with via Madison and Evans and had great customer service from them. So it's a shame it's now direct dealing only...

Just a thought......you're asking a number of different questions in your, admittedly very nicely worded, email; maybe the guy is struggling to understand, thinks he's answering them & is confused as to why you keep emailing him. Maybe. But probably not.

That was the question I forgot to ask last night...

Is there anywhere that sells the full builds or anyone who has a full build in your size with their standard post that can confirm it was supplied with a seat post that is too short ?

I've tweeted him a link ...Hope it gets sorted.

Would never touch them

Munrobiker can't believe you've got one! It'll end up in a million pieces

Commencal were very good to me when my Ramones cracked in a similar way:
[img] [/img]
It was around this time in 2012 and I got a new frame, Leisure Lakes transferred all the bits and I was back riding again with minimal faff

Stw *is* social media.

Very true, what I really meant was *their* social media.

I'll possibly start a new threat with a slightly more SEO friendly title at some point though I'm sure if someone searches "Cracked Commencal Meta HT" this should turn up.

Just a thought......you're asking a number of different questions in your, admittedly very nicely worded, email; maybe the guy is struggling to understand, thinks he's answering them & is confused as to why you keep emailing him. Maybe. But probably not.

That did cross my mind. I think the language barrier may being used by them though I'm sure if my email was about something more positive they'd make the effort.

Is there anywhere that sells the full builds or anyone who has a full build in your size with their standard post that can confirm it was supplied with a seat post that is too short ?

They ship the bike with a 350mm static post according to their website, so to comply with their 165mm rule would leave 135mm of exposed post max which I'm pretty sure wouldn't be enough for their size range. I'll measure what I was having to run tonight.

Thanks for the Tweets/support/commiserations.

Rocketman that's very interesting!

Just a thought......you're asking a number of different questions in your, admittedly very nicely worded, email; maybe the guy is struggling to understand, thinks he's answering them & is confused as to why you keep emailing him. Maybe. But probably not.

I'll bet that by the time its been through google translate for the warranty bloke to read, its indecipherable.

I'm pretty sure wouldn't be enough for their size range. I'll measure what I was having to run tonight

Pretty sure doesn't cut it mate. You need definition.

If you can show that running a large with the seatpost provided and inserted the required length would mean you'd have to be 4'11" to ride it then you have something... if it shows you can be 5'11" then you're struggling...

but without knowing fully, you're just using guesswork and blind hope.

HOLD FIRE!!

Following a slightly shittier email last night requesting contact details for their warranty manager/customer service director I've received the following...

Hi James,

We didn’t write it anywhere because it seems logical to insert your seat tube that deep (deeper than the top tube). Obviously, we were wrong.

That’s why we’re going to replace your frame, but be sure your seat post will be correctly inserted on this new one.

You can choose a 2016 Meta HT frame which exists in yellow or red, or, if you think you need an XL size, we have one last listed as second hand but in perfect conditions with clear protect already installed.

Please tell me which one you are interested in. I also need you to fulfill the attached form and to send us a picture of the serial number engraved under the bottom bracket.

Best regards

If your frame requires a stupidly long seatpost to fit riders of the specified size (due to bad design or otherwise) I'd say it seems bloody logical to inform buyers of said frame!

Either way it's a result and would imagine the Tweets and links to this thread have helped so thanks again to all.

I'd start a MTBR thread too. We are a relatively small market, the USA isn't.

Happy days...

Either way it's a result

Commencal were fine with me. I think we both knew the seatpost wasn't in that far (beyond the brace but not beyond the top tube/seat tube junction) but they swapped it anyway

Hope you get it built up OK

You're kidding right?

It'll be on eBay or in the classifieds before the box is opened! Still debating keeping the V3.

Ah, good news, finally!

in the classifieds before the box is opened!

Ok, just eBay then - can't see it being exactly [i]snapped[/i] up on here 😉

[img] [/img]

Glad you're getting sorted OP, it's just a shame it took so long, tweets etc. and battling through their stinky attitude first 🙁

now, time to research 500mm seatposts? 😉

back of the net

Hi James,

We didn’t write it anywhere because it seems logical to insert your seat tube that deep (deeper than the top tube). Obviously, we were wrong.

lolz, they called you stoopid

OP - the reason I asked where you were was if you were near enough we could've got on the phone to them directly.
Not backing them - but a lot of the time things like live translators really cock up the phrasing or verb layout with spanish.
So whilst your email was bang on for us reading it - trust me, google translate made no sense!

Doesn't matter now as I'm guessing either the tweets, etc worked or they took the time to translate/read it better and understood what had happened.

Result.

legend - Member
Hi James,
We didn’t write it anywhere because it seems logical to insert your seat tube that deep (deeper than the top tube). Obviously, we were wrong.

lolz, they called you stoopid

May I suggest: [img] [/img] 😆

That's great news. I think your sensible well worded emails payed off there.

[quote=Commencal]We didn’t write it anywhere because it seems logical to insert your seat tube that deep (deeper than the top tube). Obviously, we were wrong.

It seems logical not to require a stupidly long seatpost. It seems logical to be able to use standard dropper posts. It seems logical if you're going to add a brace that it should be sufficient to support the seat-tube. Obviously I was wrong.

Glad to see the right result - I'm sure I'm not the target market for Commencal, but I'm sure some on here are, and they've doubtless lost sales through this anyway (I wouldn't be buying one now if I was the target market) which they could have avoided by handling it better in the first place. For me that is a combination of them admitting to poor frame design and poor customer service.

Make sure you get the replacement frame in medium- it'll sell quicker as 650b.

James, that is great news, really glad you got it sorted although it shouldn't have taken this much effort.It does still leave a few issues though for any current owners:

1) The fact a manufacturer thinks it's ok to say something is "logical" but the information in their literature is explicit in its contradiction

2) They openly admit to not writing it down yet feel it's ok to quibble over this point

3) My own Meta HT is an XL, my height and inseam are perfectly within the recommended measurements according to the geometry chart on their website and yet the bike came with a 350mm post, (again this was detailed in the web spec). I measured up my bike and in order to comply with their "unwritten logic" I would need a 450mm seatpost, which in 31.6mm seems somewhat difficult to come by!!

Where it needs to be, (which complies with the literature and 9cm insertion):

[URL= http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac117/warns74/IMG_20151211_183505_zpstu50uwjf.jp g" target="_blank">http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac117/warns74/IMG_20151211_183505_zpstu50uwjf.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]

Where it should be according to Commencal "logic":

[URL= http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac117/warns74/IMG_20151211_183435_zpsgo1vudo4.jp g" target="_blank">http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac117/warns74/IMG_20151211_183435_zpsgo1vudo4.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]

Logic.....my ar5e!

Ace. Polite persistence pays off 🙂

[i] I would need a 450mm seatpost [/i]

But as someone with long legs for my height I've always had to run/buy a longer seatpost than 'standard'. My Reverb for example has a 150mm drop and has the 420mm post.

Good work!

Is there a general consensus on these "braced seat tube" designs then?

I've got one, Saracen Kili Flyer, and the top tube joins the seatube in the same place on all sizes, with the brace being larger on the bigger sizes. Saracen didn't say anthing when i asked ("insert about 4 inches"), but i'd rather avoid the hassle of a warranty return etc..

Seems like a waste of time having the brace if you have to use a longer seatpost anyway.

But as someone with long legs for my height I've always had to run/buy a longer seatpost than 'standard'. My Reverb for example has a 150mm drop and has the 420mm post.

That's not the point. The bike was supplied with a 350mm post which I can use with the minimum insertion point inside the frame. If the reality ("logic") is that you need to run a longer one so as not to stress the frame then that's what should be supplied.

My specialized is also an XL, stock bikes in "L" or "XL" tend to have bigger rotors, thicker handlebar grips, longer cranks, longer seatpost etc. All totally "logical" but actually implemented by the manufacturer, not left for the buyer to guess after the sale.

Pleased that the OP got it sorted, but really dissapointed in the behaviour of Commencal - I don't care how great the bike is, no-way I'd buy from a company that tried that hard not to honour the warantee. I know that they "got there in the end"..... but there are plenty of other options for buyers

Obviously, we were wrong.

Nope, not a language barrier. First rate put down skills at play there.

[i]That's not the point. The bike was supplied with a 350mm post which I can use with the minimum insertion point inside the frame. If the reality ("logic") is that you need to run a longer one so as not to stress the frame then that's what should be supplied.[/i]

I'm agreeing with you, just that I've found that I've needed to buy longer ones than supplied as my legs are that bit longer (than average).

Nope, not a language barrier. First rate put down skills at play there.

Could still be a language thing - many other languages don't have the level of sarcasm we do.

Irony is that the new design drops the continuation of the top tube to the seat tube and only runs the upper 'reinforcing strut'

[img] [/img]

They came good in the end and it might well have been a combination of the emails and maybe even a glance or two on here . But I have to admit I don't like that new design ^^ . It's like ground hog day......

This is my Meta AM. How much seat post do I need in there, I don't even think it will go down 50mm below the top tube and if it does it'll be hitting the shock!!

[img][url= https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5832/23688828761_7ccd0cd7f8_o.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5832/23688828761_7ccd0cd7f8_o.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/C6iru6 ]Meta AM[/url] [/img]

[quote=fd3chris ]They came good in the end and it might well have been a combination of the emails and maybe even a glance or two on here

I suspect they've found this thread by now. Hi Max!

Irony is that the new design drops the continuation of the top tube to the seat tube and only runs the upper 'reinforcing strut'

Different forces though.

In the OP's bike the seatstays are pushing the seatube forward, in the FS version there's nothing pushing on the seatube (well, the pivot, but that's going to have far less load on it than a rigid stay).

As Brant pointed out, there's a difference between a dropped top tube and an extended seat mast.

jamesfts - Member

HOLD FIRE!!

Following a slightly shittier email last night requesting contact details for their warranty manager/customer service director I've received the following...

Hi James,

We didn’t write it anywhere because it seems logical to insert your seat tube that deep (deeper than the top tube). Obviously, we were wrong.

Think they're on thin ice there talking about being logical considering they've supplied a large sized frame with a seatpost only suitable for a manlet.