So i bought a bike online from a large retailer.
When it arrived i noticed the gears wern't indexing properly so had to tweek them.
In the second ride i managed to get a puncture, on changing the tube i discovered the wheel nuts were not even close to being tight.
At this point alarm bells should have rung and i should have checked it all over but i've been pretty busy.
On my return commute on the very next day the off-side crank came off - graunching a few splines as it did so.
I've no proof but i'm going to say the locking nut was missing.
I've returned the bike and got this back .....
Your bike has been inspected and unfortunately requires a replacement chainset. Due to a locking nut being missing from the crank arm that kept falling off this repair is not covered by the bikes warranty.
The replacement chainset is usually priced at £89.99 however due to your bikes age I am able to lower this price to £50.00 and offer free fitting.
Please give us a call on *********** where we can set up and order for the part and take the payment or alternatively, we can send a PayPal request.
I am so sorry this is not the outcome you may have hoped for.
A) I'm pretty sure the locking nut was not put on in the first place but if it was it certaintly was not tight.
B) not sure why age is a factor as i only rode it 3 times since new.
Should i be paying??
Aditionally to this my colleague bought a bike from the same retailer at the same time so i gave it the once over with the torque wrench and found several loose bolts.
Perhaps this is one of those things but the retailers blurb suggests you just need to twist the handlebars round and you are good to ride.
not so i think!
Sounds like a he said she said argument, which would be a pain to fight, but worth pushing to maybe lower the price again, the age comment sounds like they’re saying as it’s so new, we’ll give you 50% off, rather than because it was so old.
You might get better putting in a formal complaint on the build standard, but they do usually throw in those ‘checklists’ on bike checks to cover this usually.
No, tell them to sort it for free.
not sure why age is a factor as i only rode it 3 times since new.
When did you buy it?
The missing locknut is as you point out going to be border line impossible to prove one way or other without a photo of the bike as delivered.
As for bolts etc not being tight I'm pretty sure you'll find "check before every ride" in the o and m for your bike.
I'd possibly push back a bit on the cranks and see if there was any improvement to be made, probably with reference to the "ready to ride" status you mention but equally I'd very much chalk it up to my own foolishness rather than a seller fault.
I'd expect to run round all the nuts and bolts quickly on a boxed bike before I rode it but that's absolutely an opinion rather than any sort of fact.
As for the age, as argee says, I think they're saying "it's only a few weeks old and that's a really harsh lesson so we'll help as much as we can."
Wheel nuts?
yup this bike has them on the rear wheel
So i bought a bike online from a large retailer.
he wheel nuts
BSO?
So i bought a bike online from a large retailer.
he wheel nuts
BSO?
Mentions commuting so I'm going to go benefit of the doubt and say hub gears.
Was the bike pdi’d before it was sent to you or sent in a box as it was sent from the factory.
https://www.gov.uk/online-and-distance-selling-for-businesses - edit, not the right info as the bike has been used, the point is you have the right to a working bike from the retailer, which has nothing to do with a warranty unless you've had the bike a while.
Mentions commuting so I’m going to go benefit of the doubt and say hub gears.
Close - its an e-bike if that helps 🙂
Was the bike pdi’d before it was sent to you or sent in a box as it was sent from the factory.
not sure what pdi is but it was built for me by the retailer and came in their box not from the factory.
Reject it, demand your money back in full and buy a bike from a local retailer who'll treat you properly, look after you and ensure the bike they're selling you is safe to ride. That crank arm could've come off causing you to crash and injure yourself...or if in traffic even worse. Any retailer who cant sort this basic stuff out isn't worth giving your hard earned to.
Perhaps this is one of those things but the retailers blurb suggests you just need to twist the handlebars round and you are good to ride.
I've had two of these, one of them had (from memory)
- loose brake caliper.
- three of the four stop screws were adjusted such that the mech didn't move far enough.
- both cables incorrectly adjusted (only had access to 9 of 11 gears at the back due to stop screws and cables).
- top shock bolt was only finger tight.
- headset bearing upside down.
- hose nut on one brake was finger tight
All but the top shock bolt i fixed before the first ride. The shock bolt i fixed after the first 100m off road.
The blurb from the manufacturer says turn bars, fit wheels and pedals, then ride.
The detailed blurb in the manual that comes with the bike has a HUGE list of things that need to be checked before the first ride, and they recommend a professional mechanic does it...
(the other bike just needed tyres turning round and all the lock nuts (2x disc 1x cassette) tightening properly.))
Also, what bike with a 90 quid chainset still has nuts on the rear axle?
I'll ask again:
not sure why age is a factor as i only rode it 3 times since new.
When did you buy it?
PDI - Pre-Delivery Inspection.
not sure why age is a factor as i only rode it 3 times since new.
When did you buy it?
I’ll ask again:
Sorry missed that due to the wheel nut diversion 😉
Think i had it for a total of about 10 days. I'm only going in to work twice a week thus only rode it a couple of times.
Sorry missed that due to the wheel nut diversion 😉
Think i had it for a total of about 10 days. I’m only going in to work twice a week thus only rode it a couple of times.
I was asking because I thought you may have been one of those people who bought a bike two years ago, let it rust in their shed, and then complain to the shop that it doesn't work. 😀
its an e-bike if that helps
Ahh, all sorts of weird specs on those.
I'd reread the terms and if there's no mention of needing to be built (rebuilt?) by a professional, either reject it as not fit for purpose (what's the latest terminology?), or insist on a free repair.
Have seen some shady companies claiming that bolts sometimes "just come loose".
Not if they've been fitted properly...
PDI – Pre-Delivery Inspection.
Ahh! Yes it had a checklist in the box.
I’d reread the terms
What's in the instructions?
Have seen some shady companies claiming that bolts sometimes “just come loose”.
Not if they’ve been fitted properly…
Yes and no. Bikes vibrate when you ride them, and you don't need an engineering degree to work out what vibrations do to bolts. When I worked in the food industry, we had qualified, well paid people working on our machines, but still needed metal detectors to catch the occasional bolt that had fallen off. The only bolt that you can guarantee won't fall off is on an unridden bike.
Assuming this is a Shimano-like crank, the crank shouldn't fall off if the pinch bolts have been correctly tightened. The 'locking nut' is just for preload, it's only plastic after all. So, nope this doesn't sound fair to me. As a whole the bike was faulty.
What kind of crank is it? If it's Shimano then the 'lock nut' has no influence on whether the crank stays on or not, it's just there for pre-loading. It's made out of soft plastic, and just gets squeezed off if the crank is already loose. If it's SRAM, or SRAM-copy, then it should have arrived with you tightened to 50nm, and there's is no earthly way it's coming loose from there.
The absence of a 'lock nut' just shows they didn't fit the cranks properly.
The wheel thing just sounds like a poor quality build, they should be retensioning that for you. I'm not sure you can prove the poor indexing was there from the start.
What kind of crank is it?
Shimano Claris.
I'd be pushing back quite strongly I think!
It's a pretty serious safety issue if that wasn't checked.
Could have resulted in quite an injury if that had happened in busy traffic. Sorting it for free is the least they could do.
Reject it, demand your money back in full and buy a bike from a local retailer who’ll treat you properly,
I've been looking this stuff up today (see thread on chat) - This sounds to me like an "exercise your right to cancel within 30 days" situation and get a refund.
Shimano Claris.
That's hollowtech, isn't it? In that case what they have told you is complete bollocks.
I did take a picture of the bike when i got it out of the box but annoyingly it was the wrong side so can't confirm
My initial thought was that it came off pretty quickly, normally i'd have expected a bit of noticable play then the lock nut would stop the crank detatching which is why i wonder if it was on there in the firstplace.
It also has one of those nylon locking tabs that engage in the little hole in the crank but there was so much grease on the crank itself it appeared to be stuck up in the the slot
Cranks fall off bikes for one reason and one alone. The fact it fell off whilst you were riding it signals incorrect assembly. That's a warranty issue at the very least. It's certainly a liability issue if they stated it had received a pre-ride inspection. Wheelnuts, well less so, they can come a little loose on hub and fixed wheel bikes with use. But cranks do not come off bikes. As simple as that.
Bikes vibrate when you ride them, and you don’t need an engineering degree to work out what vibrations do to bolts. When I worked in the food industry, we had qualified, well paid people working on our machines, but still needed metal detectors to catch the occasional bolt that had fallen off
A well designed, well fitted and well maintained bolted jointed shouldn't fail.
I'd put the failures down to a lack of a sufficient PDI check performed by a adequately trained person. Seems the bike shop in question has been very quick to direct all blame away, when infact they are mostly likely the root cause.
Throw them the link to consumer rights and not fit for purpose and point out their responsibilities, if they can't do that, reject it as per your rights.
Page 14 on this.
It's not a 'lock nut', it's a 'cap'. You use it to set the preload on the bearings before you stick the locking plate thingy into the right spot and tighten up the pinch bolts.
If the pinch bolts come loose, the locking plate is supposed to stop the crank detaching entirely as you're riding down a hill at 35mph. The end cap makes no difference at all, on its own it will give way very quickly once the crank is loose.
So they potentially did two things wrong - they didn't properly and evenly torque the pinch bolts, and they didn't engage the locking plate properly.
I've done it a couple of times (and trashed the splines) when my spannering was even worse than it was now, but this retailer created a significant risk of injury to you.
That’s hollowtech, isn’t it? In that case what they have told you is complete bollocks
Agreed.
normally i’d have expected a bit of noticable play then the lock nut would stop the crank detatching which is why i wonder if it was on there in the firstplace.
HTii cranks tend to just let go when they go, you might have noticed it for a few yards but it is that quick.
[HTii] Cranks fall off bikes for one reason and one alone. The fact it fell off whilst you were riding it signals incorrect assembly
This sounds to me like an “exercise your right to cancel within 30 days” situation and get a refund
Reject it under the CRA 2015, in writing, as faulty/not fit for purpose. Tell them if you want a replacement, repair or refund* (time frame may dictate this)
*Right to a refund isn't clear cut but most places won't argue it, equally assuming you're otherwise happy with it it's the least best option.
A well designed, well fitted and well maintained bolted jointed shouldn’t fail.
So, you can 100% guarantee that if I torque everything on my bike up correctly then I'll never need to check a bolt again?
So, you can 100% guarantee that if I torque everything on my bike up correctly then I’ll never need to check a bolt again?
Well only if you properly maintain the torque...
Well only if you properly maintain the torque…
So, in simple language, the bolt can come loose?
If this was a new bike and sold as fully ready to ride other than turning the bars / putting the seat post in then the cranks shouldn’t fall off within a few weeks. That’s says they weren’t torqued up / fitted properly.
Do you still have the box with the pdi checklist on it / a picture of it?
I’d push back hard and tell them you were told it was fully ready to ride and therefore a crank arm should t fall off in such a short space in time.
Halfords ?
So, you can 100% guarantee that if I torque everything on my bike up correctly then I’ll never need to check a bolt again?
Well lets turn this around, are you saying the OP has unrealistic expectations for a preassembled bike?
That is what he bought, a bike not a kit of bits for self assembly.
I would say the vendor had (as a minimum) a duty of care to correctly fit the parts that came preassembled and provide instructions on how to assemble any parts not delivered in a preassembled state.
If you don't want to be liable for the safety of your customers don't sell them anything you have assembled for them, just sell them parts and make it clear it's entirely their responsibility to put it together correctly.
TBH You shouldn't need to check the pinch bolts on a HT2 crank after 2 rides, if they were correctly torqued to start with.
Do you actually go over your entire bike with a torque wrench as a pre-ride check every time you ride it? I'd never get anything done if I lived like that...
I would expect a correctly fitted crank to not require checking for say 200 odd miles?
The OP was not being unreasonable in expecting to be able to use the fitted cranks as intended as soon as the bike was delivered for a fair few miles.
If a dealer sold you a brand new car, you drove it twice and on the third journey a wheel just rattled it's bolts loose and flew off, would you just shrug and say "well bolts can come loose" or would you be back at the dealership demanding repair and/or refund?
So, you can 100% guarantee that if I torque everything on my bike up correctly then I’ll never need to check a bolt again?
Maintenance involves checking the torque, either by using a torque wrench or applying a tell tale (nail varnish across the nut and onto the clamping surface or similar).
I have a geometron, it uses standard fasteners for the most part, the main pivot bearings sit on the axle and the end caps are there to contrain it (which they dont need to do much of as its a good press fit into the frame, so little chance of the axle walking).
There are so many janky approaches in the mtb industry (trunnion mounted shocks is a great example) which put bolts in single shear and thus they will just get loose over time through cyclic loading.
Many manufacturers use bespoke aluminum fasteners or fasteners which don't stretch at all and you are purely relying on a bit of thread lock and a dubiously applied level of torque, a wing and a prayer comes to mind.
Am I missing something?
OP says they had bike for about 10 days but retailer offers 'goodwill' gesture based on age of bike; some inconsistency there.
If circumstances are as stated, I suggest you refer retailer to the Consumer Rights Act - after you've read and understood your rights - and tell them which of the available legal remedies you want; there's nothing for them to discuss - it's for them to comply with the law.
Warranty is irrelevant. A warranty gives you protection over and about your statutory rights, and in this case your statutory rights, as in the Consumer Rights Act 2015, are sufficient.
In summary, if there's a defect in the bike, and you've had it less than 6 months, the onus is on them to prove that the defect wasn't present when it was delivered. See quotes below. There was a defect, they said there was a nut missing. It's not up to you to prove that it was missing when you got the bike, it's up to them to prove it wasn't.
s9 (3) The quality of goods includes their state and condition; and the following aspects (among others) are in appropriate cases aspects of the quality of goods—
(a)fitness for all the purposes for which goods of that kind are usually supplied;
(b)appearance and finish;
(c)freedom from minor defects;
(d)safety;
(e)durability.
and
s19 (14) For the purposes of subsections (3)(b) and (c) and (4), goods which do not conform to the contract at any time within the period of six months beginning with the day on which the goods were delivered to the consumer must be taken not to have conformed to it on that day.
The Act says you can reject the bike and get a refund.
OP says they had bike for about 10 days but retailer offers ‘goodwill’ gesture based on age of bike; some inconsistency there.
If circumstances are as stated, I suggest you refer retailer to the Consumer Rights Act – after you’ve read and understood your rights – and tell them which of the available legal remedies you want; there’s nothing for them to discuss – it’s for them to comply with the law.
It is as stated. (give or take a couple of days)
They threw the age thing in there when they replied, which is why i was questioning it in my OP.
its a 2021 model but i bought it new this year.
Is it one of those cheap jack mass produced ebikes?
Jesus. I can't believe this is still running.
I did take a picture of the bike when i got it out of the box but annoyingly it was the wrong side so can’t confirm
You're totally overthinking this. Just growasett, go back to the shop and request a refund or repair. Its quite simple.
Is it one of those cheap jack mass produced ebikes?
no but may as well have been.
Just growasett, go back to the shop and request a refund or repair. Its quite simple.
Steady on. I already did this as soon as i recieved the email. i simply started this thread because i was unsure where i stand.
They took a week to respond to my original complaint so i'm not holding out much hope of a speedy resolution.
Jesus. I can’t believe this is still running.
you don't HAVE to read it if it upsets you 😉
They may well have thrown in a ticked PDI sheet but that doesn't mean it's actually been PDI correctly or at all. The issues sound like a bike that hasn't been checked properly, or has "factory" torque values, which are quite often too low.
As mentioned already, on a Shimano HL2 chainset the main central bolt is just a plastic pre-load bolt. The pinch bolts are what actually hold the arm on the axle. If the arm is correctly installed you could in theory run those cranks with no pre-load bolt at all. I've never had a correctly installed Shimano HL2 crank fall off.
If it's a rear wheel motor ebike the wheelnuts will have a high torque value and some sort of non-turn hooked washers to prevent the axle from trying to counter-rotate to the hub and slip in the frame (like hub gears do). If the wheelnuts aren't tight enough, or the non turn washers are a poor fit the axle could potentially turn in the dropouts. It might only be a couple of millimetres rotation each way, but over time the back and forth forces from accelerating and braking will loosen the wheel nuts.
Based on your confirmation of original post, consumer rights act.
As I posted above it's not a discussion, it's you telling the retailer you're exercising your legal right.
Either a replacement or a full refund; you may be better going for refund and then patronising your LBS.
Either a replacement or a full refund; you may be better going for refund and then patronising your LBS.
I think you are right.
Steady on. I already did this as soon as i recieved the email. i simply started this thread because i was unsure where i stand
Soz pat. I phrased it hyperbolously in a rubbish attempt to emphasise that I totally think they're not being fair and i think you have a very good case for them to just sort it TF out. It came across critical of you ( actually it didn't just come across like that it was written like that, by me, my bad 😉)
Go gettem.
If it’s a rear wheel motor ebike the wheelnuts will have a high torque value and some sort of non-turn hooked washers to prevent the axle from trying to counter-rotate to the hub and slip in the frame (like hub gears do). If the wheelnuts aren’t tight enough, or the non turn washers are a poor fit the axle could potentially turn in the dropouts. It might only be a couple of millimetres rotation each way, but over time the back and forth forces from accelerating and braking will loosen the wheel nuts.
Yea when i went to change the tube, to say they were hand tight would be being generous. At this point i'd ridden the bike about 8 miles. fortunate to get a puncture perhaps.
found a section from the manual in case anyone was still doubting the wheel nuts 🙂 🙂
was £2.5k so not top of the range e-bike by any means but not exactly a BSO.
PS Not named the bike specifically only because i think its not the bikes fault in this case.
my bad 😉
No drama.
Although i think this has been my longest running thread to date, so quite pleased about that 🙂 🙂
They're trying it on with you imo. I have a fair idea how mail order PDI processes should work.
Every mail order retailer should have a check list from the PDI - records frame number, mechanic, date and items checked. Ask to see that if you don't already have a copy of it with the bike delivery. Check the items that caused problems. If they were ticked as done properly then I'd reject it under CRA - the whole PDI is questionable if a HT2 crank fell off on the 3rd ride and the wheel was loose. HT2 cranks just don't fall off or rotate on the splines like that when fitted properly, not even if your first two rides were 300k audaxes.
RTFM.
For Installation to the Bicycle, and Maintenance: HOLLOWTECH II type
• If the inner cover is not installed correctly, the axle may rust and become damaged, and the bicycle may fall over and serious injury may occur as a result.
• The two left crank arm mounting bolts should be tightened in stages rather than fully tightened at once. Use a torque wrench to check that the final tightening torques are within the range of 12 - 14 N·m. Furthermore, after riding approximately 100km (60 miles), use a torque wrench to re-check the tightening torques. It is also important to periodically check the tightening torques. If the tightening torques are too weak or if the mounting bolts are not tightened alternately in stages, the left crank arm may come off and the bicycle may fall over, and serious injury may occur as a result.
Had the exact same issue with an inbred I bought from On-One about 10 years ago. Had deore cranks and the preload bolt fell out one ride. This was after having it for about a month.
Dropped them an email and they sent me £10 to order one as they didn't have any in stock. Because the pinch bolts were tightened correctly the crank arm didn't come loose.
^ yes you should read the manual, it's still very possible that this is a case of insufficient PDI. Most bikes are sold with a recommendation for a check up after a period or amount of riding that would be more than 60 miles.
(I should have been more diplomatic in post above and not said 'trying it on' as that implies intent, most likely that the offer seems a fair compromise based on what customer care staff know of the details. It wouldn't take much to establish whether the PDI was credible or not and that could change the offer made or the OPs position.)
RTFM.
Well, yes, you'd hope whoever was assembling the bike would have done this. The fact that they are referring to something as a 'lock nut' when it is made out of soft plastic and has zero 'locking' responsibilities suggests they haven't bothered.
The two left crank arm mounting bolts should be tightened in stages rather than fully tightened at once. Use a torque wrench to check that the final tightening torques are within the range of 12 – 14 N·m.
This is the bit you'd expect to have been done and checked before the OP received his new bike.
Furthermore, after riding approximately 100km (60 miles), use a torque wrench to re-check the tightening torques. It is also important to periodically check the tightening torques.
This is the bit he should be doing.
Perhaps the 'FM' should include a line about not trusting any retailer to do the job they have promised to do prior to handing the bike over.
Of course it's theoretically possible that pinch bolts might slacken off in the tiny timeframe between correct installation and a few kms of riding, but there is a far more likely explanation (and the bullshit response from the retailer supports this).
Of course it’s theoretically possible that pinch bolts might slacken off in the tiny timeframe between correct installation and a few kms of riding, but there is a far more likely explanation (and the bullshit response from the retailer supports this).
Well, if the 'RTFM' section up there is correct, it says the bolts need checking after 100km. Since OP hasn't ridden 100km, it's failed. It's either, therefore, a failure of the part so a Shimano warranty issue or (far more likely IMO) a failure of their PDI.
The good news is, in either case you can tell the retailer to just sort it out. And no, you shouldn't be paying.
I'd probably sprinkle on a bit of faux anger at being supplied a "clearly unsafe bike" with multiple problems identified. It's absolutely not reasonable to expect most commuter-style bike buyers to check and re-torque all the bolts on their brand new bike.
The details of how/why it fell apart are irrelevant. A new bike fell apart after 3 rides, it's defective, not fit for purpose, as posted above the Consumer Rights Act means you can return it. You don't have to prove it's their fault, they have prove it isn't.
Yes and no. Bikes vibrate when you ride them, and you don’t need an engineering degree to work out what vibrations do to bolts.
I'd expect at least a year before a lightly used and correctly assembled bike would need anything more than a clean.
Hell, my race bikes have gone almost that long without having anything other than consumables replaced. (Yes, i have an engineering degree. And a string of bike mechanicing related qualifications.)
Most of the provisos in manufacturers instructions (check after 4 weeks/100 km etc) are arse covering exercises. If they are seated/greased/adjusted/fitted correctly in the first place, they are an irrelevance. Unfortunately, most people who assemble bikes aren't interested in doing it right, just quickly.
As this has been bumped after the best part of a week, @pat12 did you get sorted, or are the shop still not playing ball?
Can you name the shop so we know who to avoid? 😁
They have come back to me and said they need to go to the manufauturer for a warranty claim but its not guaranteed. "we will do what we can to support our customers."
I've responded last week to say i'm not really interested in what the manufauturer says, i'm returning the bike to them for a refund under the sale of goods act as its neither fit for purpose, free from minor defects or safe.
Not heard anything back yet 🙁
Yeah, you didn't buy it/have a contract with the manufacturers, (and a contract doesn't have to be written, payment accepted for goods or a service is a contract) so you want your resolution from the shop, and it's up to them to get THEIR refund from the manufacturer.
Ultimately you'll be able to do a small claim, which IIRC is called Money Claim Online these days.
I’ve responded last week to say i’m not really interested in what the manufauturer says, i’m returning the bike to them for a refund under the sale of goods act as its neither fit for purpose, free from minor defects or safe.
Double check the exact procedure here but broadly:
Send the correct notice (eg the SoGA no longer applies so you're exercising your rights under the CRA) - I imagine you'll find a template letter online
Meet your obligations - take it to the point of sale or make available for collection (that will mean it needs to be suitable for collection so boxed etc).
Give them a date for drop off or from which it will be available to collect.
Make it clear you'll be claiming a refund by the method of payment of they haven't issued a refund by x date regardless of if its been collected or not (give a reasonable time frame, say 5 days after you made it available).
Send your letter by email and recorded delivery.
