[Closed] Vuelta 2017 thread - contains spoilers!

lashing it down at the moment

Ha ha - Eurosport player is back.

Crikey no dramas please Mr Froome...

72 kph 😯 they are nuts

What's the point of nibbles team going so hard and giving sky a free ride up to the bottom of the final climb?

Surely that's just setting the sky train up to neutralise the last 13 k with fresh legs?

I really don't understand road riding tactics!!

What's etiquette say about what Froome should do while Nibali is down?

Anybody else who used to dislike the steak eater cheering on Contador for the win (and possible podium) here? You couldn't say he doesn't deserve it.

Yep, I am. It is a pleasure to watch him stretching his legs on a climb.

[quote=tpbiker ]Don't get the hatred for contador on here really. He's no worse than Millar for example, and noone had an issue when he was riding towards the end of his career.

I'm not sure there is much hatred for him. 5 years ago maybe - I'd have joined the haters - but I think most like me have really warmed to him, and I'll certainly miss him, particularly after his performance here. Realistically he was one bad day away from being a serious overall contender. Millar is a really good analogy - yes I'm prepared to give Bertie the benefit of the doubt in the same way I was Millar.

Contador on the virtual podium...

someones going to offer him a large bag of cash after this.

Nibali in bother now.

Wow, Poels drops everybody but Froome!

Suitable ending for Contador - final race stage for the Vuelta and for him and hopefully a win. He's a great cyclist steak issues aside, chapeau and Salute to the man.

Gap's going down fast now though.

[quote=aracer ]Wow, Poels drops everybody [s]but Froome![/s]

fixed

Just Contador and Kruijswijk up the road? Letting Poels go means if Nibali attacks and keeps away then he doesn't get any time bonuses.

Wow

Enorme, Alberto!

Proper emotional watching him ride those last five kilometres.

Haven't felt like that watching a race since Zubeldia crossed the line of his last Clásica (alumnus of our youth cycling club).

That looked brutal, riders just coming apart at the seams.

Bertie sure earned that stage win.

Almost perfect result, would have liked Bertie to make the podium (which would have been pretty amazing from 30th on GC with lots of GC contenders minutes ahead).

In other news Poels may have just denied Froome the points jersey - by my calcs if Froome had finished 2nd he'd have secured that whatever Trentin does tomorrow. As it is Trentin has to pick up something at the intermediate and then win the final sprint to avoid the indignity of racing in the jersey tomorrow but not winning it.

And Poels gets 6th in GC.

Get in you little ripper!!!

Froome is class

Brilliant. Who will play Bertie in the movie?

Excellent ride by Bertie, thank the Lord he did his last race with a proper win.

I'll be sad to see him go (as I was about Fabian) but Bertie's career has been fabulous and he should feel very proud.

Wonder if that will be enough for Froome to get knighted like that nobber Wiggins

Amazing achievement!

Almost perfect result, would have liked Bertie to make the podium

nah, more poetic that the only GT podium step he's every inhabited is the top one. Races to win, boom or bust, go big or go home etc. I can't quite believe he managed to pull it off today when everyone knew he was going to try, and after the efforts of yesterday. I also genuinely think Froome and Sky raced today wanting Contador to win, they marked Nibali (the bigger threat) rather than leading the chase until Nibz popped, and only attacked when it was too late to challenge Contador for the stage win.

Also a nice symmetry with Poels getting second - he came second (to overall winner Cobo) on the Angliru in 2011 (when Froome was released from serving Wiggins too late).

Froome is class

Wonder if that will be enough for Froome to get knighted l

Been a long time in the running to receive comments like that. Only 3 riders ever to do this double, people should start recognising him as a seriously talented rider and not a Team Sky pretender that accidentally pushed Bradley off the pedestal.

(secondhand froome anecdote).

Friend lives on Tenerife. Bought a copy of froome's autobio, hung around outside Mirador when sky were there, froome came back from a ride, signed it and spent ages chatting before heading out on second ride of day. friend and soigneur chat further, end up exchanging contact details.

Fast forward several months to this spring. Sky decide on a second last-minute training camp in Tenerife. Mirador is booked out. Soigneur contacts friend, her and her partner do a fair amount of digging and chasing, and come up with accommodation Sky are happy with.

She get's a signed yellow jersey as a thank-you. Pretty cool, huh? Except it's not dropped of by courier, or even a soigneur or Sky staffer. Froome's popped around to personally say thanks for the effort, with a jersey in hand to sign and dedicate personally to them.

Everything I've heard suggests he's a genuinely classy gentleman of a guy, and I think his natural racing style is more aggressive and attacking than the Sky template usually allows for, and that he'll be appreciated more after he retires (doping/motors speculation can go in a different thread). I also think if he was on just about any other team he'd be far more well-liked and probably as successful.

Anybody else who used to dislike the steak eater cheering on Contador for the win (and possible podium) here? You couldn't say he doesn't deserve it.

Oh i can and I will, he doesnt deserve his place in the peloton. He is walking proof that doping pays dividends and that its ok to be a drugs cheat in cycling. He is still getting the benefit of his doping whilst still trying to pretend it was the cows fault and nothing to do with him. How many other races did he win thanks to the drugs?

If your views on doping are so black-and-white you may as well stop following all professional sport, let alone cycling.

And specifically where clenbuterol is concerned, there are huge double standards

https://www.boston.com/sports/olympics/2017/04/03/ioc-denies-covering-up-2008-olympic-doping-cases

After careful consideration, WADA informed the IOC further to the pattern analysis that the IOC had conducted that WADA could not find any significant and consistent pattern of abuse of clenbuterol in these cases and that it would be appropriate not to take these cases any further,” the IOC said in a statement....The low levels of clenbuterol found, “below 1ng/ml,” was in the range to suggest “potential meat contamination cases,” the IOC said

so a blanket decision by WADA and the IOC not to follow up on what is a non-threshold drug (ie. any amount is subject to investigation and explanation) at the Olympics and yet

http://sportsscientists.com/2010/09/contador-tests-positive/

On the 21st, the level is 50 pg/ml, it falls to 20 pg/ml on the 22nd, and then none is found on either the 23rd or 24th.

So Contador was found with clenbuterol levels 1000 times lower than those in a host of 2008 Olympic athletes. In Contador's case, he was cleared by the Spanish federation, but WADA took it to CAS in order to get Contador banned. In the Olympics case, WADA decided to breath their own strict-liability rules and not follow up Clenbuterol positives, just assuming innocence.

Remember when riders used to attack again and again, day after day, and we all thought they were doping?

Anyway. Moving on.

Didn't Bertie attack well over the last few days. Surely no one can have a beef with him about that!

Bertie is the sideshow.

Froome is the main attraction. Another very impressive ride and the best GT rider of this era.

Phenomenal Vuelta from Contador, made it v. exciting. I have to admit my first thoughts were what steaks was he eating, but I do like him (I also like Millar fwiw). Really pleased he won that stage, great way to finish his career.

problem is that too many riders have had AMAZING last tours before retiring - ricco, diLuca, Leipheimer, notice a pattern forming? now clenbutador rolls back the years to steam back up the GC, but all the while not being in red or a stage win so that he's not madatory tested...

I have to admit my first thoughts were what steaks was he eating, but I do like him (I also like Millar fwiw).

I agree on this.

It's just odd that Bertie is seemingly given a free pass from all sides when he puts in a performance which in days gone by would have been questioned hard.

That aside, Sky clearly played the best tactics here. To see them mob handed when other teams were down to one or two shows that. No dramas, just grinding it down day after day. Is it boring? No, not really, as long as someone tries to attack them. If that someone does it again and again, and has a past, it raises my suspicions I'm afraid.

Woods had a great ride, again no drama, just looks like he's learning how to ride a GT. Keldemann (Spl?) looks good, and is perhaps following the new mould of riders approaching every stage as a TT (As per Froome, I suppose), will be interesting to see what he does alongside/with/for Dumpmoulin in later races.

Loved seeing Thomas de Gent get a stage win. Breakaway specialists always make me smile.

anybody know whether today's crashers are OK ?

I'm fine thanks. Today's incident has cost me an new front XT lever though.

Anyway. Moving on.

it's just a rabbit hole, though, isn't it? I'm interested in doping/motor fraud and my twitter timeline is full of WTAF about Poels spinning up the inside of the crazy steep hairpin, compared to how even juiced riders laboured

https://streamable.com/1vjhh

but how much of that 'spectacle' is camera angle, how much is much lower modern gear ratios (some of them riding MAMIL 34x32 this year compared to the crazy big gears they used to monster), and how much is hidden motors etc etc?

Bertie is the sideshow.

Froome is the main attraction. Another very impressive ride and the best GT rider of this era.

Guess that depends on how you define 'era'. Bertie won 7 GTs (or 9 depending on your point of view) and was the youngest to win all 3 so Froome has a couple of wins, including preferably at least one Giro to go. Are they from different eras? (genuine question and open to debate, and Orla Chennaoui and Suz Clementson seem to have fallen out on Twitter over it...)

It's just odd that Bertie is seemingly given a free pass from all sides when he puts in a performance which in days gone by would have been questioned hard.

if you believe all the rumours he's moved on from doping and was/is a pioneer of motor fraud (and he's had a habit of odd late bike/wheel changes just before big climbs whilst his personal mechanic frantically fiddles with his wris****ch). And do we believe that just because he's not in red he's not getting dope-tested, or is that because the UCI/ASO are in on the cover-up (like the UCI were with Lance, and every other corrupt governing body and star performer, there's that rabbit hole again).

I'm fine thanks. Today's incident has cost me an new front XT lever though.

So Contador was found with clenbuterol levels 1000 times lower than those in a host of 2008 Olympic athletes. In Contador's case, he was cleared by the Spanish federation, but WADA took it to CAS in order to get Contador banned. In the Olympics case, WADA decided to breath their own strict-liability rules and not follow up Clenbuterol positives, just assuming innocence.

And the plasticisers found to indicate transfusions? Good riddance to him.

[quote=edhornby ]now clenbutador rolls back the years to steam back up the GC, but all the while not being in red or a stage win so that he's not madatory tested...

oops

The clenbuterol was a bit of a red herring, it was the plasticisers that did for him. He did dope, he was caught but was believably worse after his ban so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt the back end of his career. Valverde can still piss right off though.

Tbf he was dying on his arse at the end there. He went far too hard from the bottom and the gc group could have caught him if they'd paced it differently. It wasn't a complete gift but there looked to be an agreement.

Valverde can still piss right off though.

So true!

And do we believe that just because he's not in red he's not getting dope-tested,

Does anyone know what the schedule is for drug tests? Obviously, stage winner, overall leader and random tests but how often would Sky's domestiques have been tested. (If there's one performance that makes me suspicious it's Gianni Moscon, this year's superhuman Sky rider.)

You would hope they have apps that look at the power data and compare it to the "digital passport" numbers and if it looks spurious jab the needle and take blood. But of course they know at all times what they are outputing and when to reign it in. 🙄

Just got home to Cataluña after an epic 10 hour drive from the top of the Angliru. Yesterday morning we were sat at a prime spot that we bagged on Thursday afternoon about 7km from the top, an official drove up and asked if we would be willing to drive our camper van to the finish area as their second van that they used for the riders to use for the medical control had broken down. In return we would get VIP passes to the finish line hospitality and some goodies.
We agreed and packed up, there then followed the most stressful hour I've had for a long time, we'd ridden up on Friday, and tbh it didn't seem too bad but trying to get a 2.5m wide van up through the thousands of people walking and riding up, wobbling all over the road, taking selfies and cursing us with a 1000m drop off 1 side of the road and a sheer rock face on the other was terrifying!
We got to the carpark at the top and as it was raining hard and very windy we stayed in the van watching the stage unfold on tv.
When the race reached the bottom of the Angliru, the weather had abated so we watched on the finish line. There were very few spectators, mainly press and tv so we had a prime view of the finish and team cars arriving to take the riders back down. Once the podium and interviews had finished, Chris Froome was ushered into our van to do his tests, Contador used the other one. After about 15 minutes, he came out, I managed to get a photo with him and he thanked us for use of our toilet!
So the answer is that the stage winner and GC leader are tested every stage, what a day!!

I hate the term. But I reckon that post is about to go viral.
Superb story

Pissed-on Broke?

So the answer is that the stage winner and GC leader are tested every stage, what a day!!

Great story but I knew that bit ^^. 😆

It's the team domestiques I'm curious about.

martinhutch - Member

Pissed-on Broke?

Clever!!

Trentin not happy, wins 4 stages and doesn't get green

That was a bit of a troll from Froome I thought. 😆 His colleagues in the classics squad might regret that come April.

Purely hypothetical, but if it was found that the entire sky team other than froome were juiced out their tits, it would seem mightly unfair that he would get to keep the victory

Wouldn't need to be the entire team either, just one rider testing positive would have given the winner a clear and unfair advantage.

Anyhow, I'm not saying anyone from sky is juicing, i'm just interested. Has there been a precedent where a grand tour winner's team mate has tested positive? I'm assuming numerous times.

Yeah I've said that for a while. If anyone in Sky ever gets popped, it would cast a huge shadow over the whole operation. More so than for other teams (past/present) who aren't quite so reliant on teamwork.

And yeah, top trolling from Froome for green. I feel like Trentin must have pissed Sky off somehow 😆

Yeah I've said that for a while. If anyone in Sky ever gets popped, it would cast a huge shadow over the whole operation. More so than for other teams (past/present) who aren't quite so reliant on teamwork.

And yeah, top trolling from Froome for green. I feel like Trentin must have pissed Sky off somehow

Almost feels like the Armstrong era all over again. 😆

More so than for other teams (past/present) who aren't quite so reliant on teamwork.

I really don't know why people seem to think that what Sky are doing is any different in this regard to any number of strong teams over the years.

[quote=jonnyboi ]Trentin not happy, wins 4 stages and doesn't get green

😆 - to be fair he's quite gracious if you see the full interview, simply pointing out that he's done pretty well in a race with so many stages where the GC riders were contesting the finishes.

Top trolling though - I have to wonder if it was all planned as a troll given that Sky could have removed all the excitement from the points competition by getting Poels to brake at the finish yesterday.

If there's one performance that makes me suspicious it's Gianni Moscon, this year's superhuman Sky rider

Completely agree, just seems unreal

Moscon has a quite good palmares, national tt champion, 5th in national road and Paris Roubaix this year alone. Reasonably good results last year for a young rider

It wasn't a complete gift but there looked to be an agreement.

That's what I thought, based on nothing much.

Bertie went all out, and faded towards the end. Sky did followed their normal calculations, held him where they needed to, and when Froome and Poels realised it was in the bag they opened up a bit to see if they could catch him for the hell of it.

If there's one performance that makes me suspicious it's Gianni Moscon, this year's superhuman Sky rider

What kilo said. Was under 23 national road champ, won a stage race last year, Italian TT champ this year and 5th in the road race, and 5th at Paris Roubaix, a quality engine. Probably worked up to the Vuelta and lost a bit of classics weight. He might be dropping GC contenders on the way up the hills but then he doesn't have to worry about making it to the top. He also finished an hour and 20 mins down on GC so assume he was rested on some stages too (he was one from last place in the Logrono ITT!)

Probably worked up to the Vuelta and lost a bit of classics weight. He might be dropping GC contenders on the way up the hills but then he doesn't have to worry about making it to the top.

You might be right - I hope you are - but he's only leaving the front a km or two from the top, having hauled back multiple attacks from pure climbers and gc contenders. That's not 'normal' for anyone, never mind a rider who is known as a tt specialist.

He could just be an exceptional rider.

Except.... Sky had a different rider doing the same exceptional job last time, and the time before, etc. We've seen this happen before and it didn't have a good ending.

We've seen this happen before and it didn't have a good ending.

It happened before in quite a different style though, didn't it?

I'm looking forward to the day when someone from sky finally admits to what ever they've been using, be it drugs, electric motors or both!

- to be fair he's quite gracious if you see the full interview, simply pointing out that he's done pretty well in a race with so many stages where the GC riders were contesting the finishes.

Seems like trentin finished 26.40 down on contador on the Angliru and also therefore outside the cut off. He seems to have been reinstated without penalty along with a number of other riders. So maybe Froome is making a point about that?

As an aside, looks like David Villella who won the Polka jersey finished outside the time limit as well

The rules do allow discretion "for the good of the race" regarding the cutoff don't they?

It appears to be 10% in the Vuelta, which means only 97 of 159 were inside it - they're not going to eliminate 40% of the field the day before the finish. Though on stage 15 over half the peleton were outside the original time limit, but it appears they officially extended it in advance on that stage - given the similarity of the stage profiles I suspect they might even have done the same for the Angliru stage. Of course there is precedent from last year - on the Formigal stage well over half the field were outside the time limit.

Froome did suggest last year that the organisors should have stuck to the rules and eliminated everybody (though I think that would have been everybody else on his team). But no, I don't think him going for the points jersey was anything to do with time limits - if you see Froome's interview he mentioned that it was a race and he likes racing, and that it was probably the only chance he was ever going to get of winning a points jersey.

Eddy Merckx is deified for winning every jersey. Why would Froome want to give it up after fighting day after day to finish as high up as he could in every stage?

The rules do allow discretion "for the good of the race" regarding the cutoff don't they?

Absolutely, and that discretion is applied more often than not. I was suggesting a reason why Froome may have pushed for the jersey. Although Aracer's last sentence is by far the most likely explanation.

Edit: although I'm still a bit confused why he let Poels finish before him on the Angliru?

Probably because he was knackered and not thinking straight, plus if there were any issues with Contador (getting assistance from crowd, holding onto car, failing test etc) resulting in DQ (unlikely in his final race on home soil) then Poels would take the stage as reward for his labour

[quote=joeydeacon ]Probably because he was knackered and not thinking straight, plus if there were any issues with Contador (getting assistance from crowd, holding onto car, failing test etc) resulting in DQ (unlikely in his final race on home soil) then Poels would take the stage as reward for his labour

The former possibly, though you'd think the DS in the car behind might remind him - I'm not sure how many people are looking at this in hindsight, I was thinking as they came into the finish that Poels should ease off so that Froome secured the points jersey (I'd checked the permutations earlier!) and when he didn't I wondered if it was deliberate to keep the competition open. Most unlike Sky to forget about something like that, and they're not really in the habit of giving gifts.

It seems unlikely there was any thought about the latter.

I think maybe Froome letting Poels go ahead was more of a gesture than anything else. And I agree, his head was probably just absorbing the fact he'd won the Vuelta. I don't think Trentin/Quick Step could realistically expect Froome to give up the points jersey could they? As its been said, he's a bike racer. Another 11k euros in the pot for the team is small beer in the grand scheme of Sky riders' salaries but a nice bonus to share. Having said that, when they need QS to pull a break in or help them in the Classics it could have been a favour banked...

Well played by Froome for going for the points - this final day procession tradition has been taken to far - it's a race FFS.

I wouldn't call Trentin a second rate sprinter - stage wins all 3 GTs - but he's not exactly one of the big names, and yet had very little competition for the sprints. 4 stage wins is a pretty good reward for his talents.

Don't think there's much love lost between QS and Sky anyway - not since Stannard mugged 3 of them a few years back !

[quote=slowpuncheur ]I think maybe Froome letting Poels go ahead was more of a gesture than anything else.

I'm not sure it was even that deliberate a thing - I suggested before that Poels needed to brake. Froome looked like he was hanging on and Poels looked like he was waiting for him, even on the final run in. IIRC Froome didn't come through at all, when you'd think if he had anything left he'd have taken a pull.

As I posted earlier I was standing just past the finish of the Angliru and the Poels thing was definitely an act of thanks from Froome. The last 600m was actually downhill so there was plenty of time for Froome to recover and pass Poels. The way they were talking and hugging after the finish didn't look as though the Green jersey was top of their priorities.

Re: Contador, I think that regardless of how you feel about him, it won't be til next year when every rider is too afraid to risk their placing by attacking the Sky train, that you'll realise how entertaining he makes cycling.. Grand Tours and stage races will definitely be poorer without him..

I've had the best part of a week off STW watching the Vuelta but 2 hours brings back some of the cynicism. Just thinking that it was interesting that Contadors stage win and hence test was the last competitive one. Wonder if the results will be quietly be forgotten about provided he retires and stays that way. The manufacturing of Treks combativity prize was a way of getting him on the podium in his home of Madrid to the delight of his devotees and of course the event sponsors. On Spanish tv, virtually all the jersey presetations, including red were in the background while Contador was being interviewed. You really had to be there to see the strength of adoration towards him, it was a much bigger story than Froomes win.

Well yesterday I thought it was a bit tight of Froome to go for green, but listening to his interview he figured it was probably the only chance he would ever have of winning a green jersey. Until next year of course when he comes back for them all?

Trentin seemed fairly sanguine about the affair.

You really had to be there to see the strength of adoration towards him, it was a much bigger story than Froomes win.

On Spanish tv, virtually all the jersey presetations, including red were in the background while Contador was being interviewed.

Eurosport were using the host feed, so it was the same: Contador being interviewed in the large window, with the presentations going on in a smaller window.