[Closed] Vorsprung Luftkappe

Won't the Luftkappe be overshadowed by the (unavoidable) switch to the much improved [url= http://www.pinkbike.com/news/cane-creek-db-air-il-shock-opt-dropt-remotes-press-release.html ]DB AIR [IL][/url]?

I was just about to order one of these direct from Vorsprung! Need some bushes for my DBair too. The Pike has always felt good but never as awesome as the Spitfire's back end with progressive leverage curve plus DBair, which seems almost magical.

Been toying with ordering one, but holding off currently as I may be upgrading to some 36's

otsdr - Member

Won't the Luftkappe be overshadowed by the (unavoidable) switch to the much improved

I had the original inline and it was good but no where near as good as a coil is, can't see the newer larger negative spring making it better than the coil IL.

Let us know what you think when you've got it installed.

Just ordered one this afternoon from TF
Looking at the installation video I'm gonna need some Loctite 272. Anyone know where I can get a small amount rather than a 50ml bottle at £30 plus?

I'll be using nail polish

Mine was dispatch today too, my new lyrik is an improvement over the pike I had before but liked the idea behind this and hope it keeps up with the amazing ccbd air.
Anyone need the 10mm shaft clamp after I've done mine?

I'll be using nail polish

I will then 🙂

Going to try inner tubes in a vice first. £20 for the clamp was too excessive

I got 2 directly from Canada, will fit them later this week.
I didn't order the shaft clamp but hopefully [url= https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/322216431052 ]this[/url] will do the trick.

The golf thing looks a good idea, I got a split 10mm shaft clamp from a machine shop for £4

Educate me, what are the benefits?

Wad all set to order one, then saw the install vid and was put off a bit, it's a bit more in depth than it seemed when they first announced it. TF will fit it as part of a service so I might wait until they're due or have another think when I've got my workshop finished.

@Bruneep if you cut the blurb back the the core it's small bump / high speed plushness without having to run tonnes of sag.

I kind of did the same thing on a Reba using a Novyparts piston kit, seems to work as advertised.

Good lord confused now, so many options for "upgrading" forks kinda hard to know whats what and what does what, what the benefits are

[img] [/img]

Well if your RS fork knocks it's arse off on rock gardens and stuff, it's meant to cure that too.

Have new Lyriks which feel "fine" but will be sent for service/upgrade prior to holiday.

Just trying to get head round whats available to me.

fitted mine just before christmas and it's good. It pretty much does what it says on the tin. It stops the fork diving through the mid travel till you hit the ramp up point created by the bottomless tokens if that makes sense? It seems to start to slow down your rate of compression sooner in the travel but the first bit of travel is still really plush. I was running 3 tokens and 90psi on 160mm Lyriks on an Enduro 29'er and I'm now running 1 token and 100 psi, I weigh about 13 1/2 stone at the moment.

P-Jay - Member
Wad all set to order one, then saw the install vid and was put off a bit, it's a bit more in depth than it seemed when they first announced it. TF will fit it as part of a service so I might wait until they're due or have another think when I've got my workshop finished.

Must have watched a different video to me then. All you do is remove air shaft, undo piston, put luftkappe on then replace without the top out bumper.

bruneep - Member
Educate me, what are the benefits?

It's another thing to make modern suspension more "coil-like" instead of just doing the sensible thing and fitting a coil spring

the coil like thing is just advertisment babble. thats certainly not the reason I've bought it.

bruneep - Member
Educate me, what are the benefits?

it changes the air spring mecahnics in the same way as the debonair, EVOL and the Vorsprung Corset do for rear shocks. The larger negative spring makes the initial break away force less while it beefs up the mid stroke and provides ramp up at the end.

If you use tokens then you'll benifit from it as tokens affect the force required to move the piston from the start.

Stock Pike: 70psi, 2 tokens. Initial spring rate 88lbs/in, dropping to 25lbs/in (lowest point) by about 1/3 stroke.

Luftkappe: 77psi, 0 tokens. Initial spring rate 59lbs/in, dropping to 30lbs/in (lowest point, also around 1/3 stroke)

poah - Member

P-Jay - Member
Wad all set to order one, then saw the install vid and was put off a bit, it's a bit more in depth than it seemed when they first announced it. TF will fit it as part of a service so I might wait until they're due or have another think when I've got my workshop finished.

Must have watched a different video to me then. All you do is remove air shaft, undo piston, put luftkappe on then replace without the top out bumper.

Probably the same video - the very first blurb that they put out read just like your post - started with "all you do" followed by a few simple sounding words - bish, bash bosch, sounds easy, your Mum could do it - etc then the vid starts talking about clamping shafts, tight but not too tight because either way you'll destroy it, heating it if it doesn't play ball etc. It's not Rocket Surgery, but it's not fitting a new pair of pedals either, so at the rish of repeating myself - I'll wait until I've finsihed my workshop, then I'll have a clamp to use, because you can't do it without one.

The cost of getting TFtuned to do it during a service is an extra couple of quid. I did think about waiting till my fork gets a full service in march along with the fast suspension upgrade but it is actually pretty easy to do (I've swapped a couple of air shafts already) that and I couldn wait lol

got mine fitted eventually, getting the bolt off the the shaft was a right pain. If I have to do it again I'll get the shaft clamp.

[img] [/img]

not tested it yet though.

So how did you clamp the shaft in the end?

innertubes

Just ordered mine, complete with clamp. Lets see how long it takes to get to Spain.

Poah did you just use brute force to undo the bolt or did you heat it up at all to ease the Loctite?

Here's a picture of the £2 golf clamp on Ebay I've got, should do the trick.

[img] [/img]

let it soak for a bit in hot water, there was a shit load of it on the threads

Cheers Poah. I was planning on the inner tube method myself but for £2 I think I'll order one of those colp. Cheers for the link.

I ordered one as well

Poah tested yet?

no cause I've got an air leak ha ha ha ha - must have knicked a seal. need to take it apart again 🙁

a cheaper alternative to the £20 vorsprung clamp

Park Tool Axle Vice AV1

Had a couple of rides with mine in a pair of 150 pikes.
Loads more mid stroke support than with the previous set up but at the same psi.
Might try taking out the last token too as it's impossible to bottom the forks at the moment.
So far so good.

Good lord confused now, so many options for "upgrading" forks kinda hard to know whats what and what does what, what the benefits are

The benefits are: You'll think your fork feels *amazing* on the first ride. Then, you'll forget all about the upgrade, until the next upgrade comes along - then it'll feel rubbish again and will only feel better once you've fitted the new upgrade.

😉

Just fitted mine, simple enough to fit, managed to get a load of air trapped in the lower causing suck down tried cable tye still sucking down, ended up undoing the 2 5mm to release both the legs to vent the trapped air and then when full extended and no vacuum re torqued the 2 leg 5mm bolts,
As the vid said I'm running 10% ish higher with no tokens, was previously x2.
Does anyone know if I've done the correct thing to vent the negative air or is there a better easier way?

As I've mentioned if anyone wants the shaft clamp I bought (£5 donation to cancer research) and I'll post it first thing Monday!!!

[quote=chrisdiesel ]Just fitted mine, simple enough to fit, managed to get a load of air trapped in the lower causing suck down tried cable tye still sucking down, ended up undoing the 2 5mm to release both the legs to vent the trapped air and then when full extended and no vacuum re torqued the 2 leg 5mm bolts,
As the vid said I'm running 10% ish higher with no tokens, was previously x2.
Does anyone know if I've done the correct thing to vent the negative air or is there a better easier way?
As I've mentioned if anyone wants the shaft clamp I bought (£5 donation to cancer research) and I'll post it first thing Monday!!!

Chris I'll take you up on your offer on clamp sent you a PM

Anybody running this in conjunction with an MRP Ramp Control cartridge on their fork too! Or even know if it's possible?

Tempted to give it a go, the MRP Ramp control cart has improved the end stroke for me on my 160mm Lyrik, but I'd like a bit more mid stroke support too without having to add compression damping causing spiking and/or adding air to make the fork harsher off the top.

You can run is with a160 650b pike and it has the equivalent of one token ramp.

I am hoping they make one of these I can pop in a set of BOS Devilles

Anybody running this in conjunction with an MRP Ramp Control cartridge on their fork too! Or even know if it's possible?

Taken from TF tuned.

Compatibility with MRP Ramp Control:
Pike 27.5" 150mm or less, the Luftkappe is fine. At 160mm travel it does not clear.
Lyrik 27.5" 160mm, the Luftkappe is fine. At 170mm travel it does not clear.

Mine arrived yesterday from TF.
Going to wait until the shaft clamp I've ordered from ebay turns up before fitting.

Anybody running this in conjunction with an MRP Ramp Control cartridge on their fork too! Or even know if it's possible?

Tempted to give it a go, the MRP Ramp control cart has improved the end stroke for me on my 160mm Lyrik, but I'd like a bit more mid stroke support too without having to add compression damping causing spiking and/or adding air to make the fork harsher off the top.

Its def possible TfTuned are offering that very upgrade.

The Luftkappe sounds exactly what Im wanting/needing, Ive experimented with tokens for over a year now and Ive decided I just dont like them, I now run the recommended psi of 85psi with no tokens and it feels spot on but could do with a bit more mid stroke support, forks are due another full service in april so will probably just get Tf to carry it out .

Ok sorted the pressure in the lowers
Problem, did a quick 5min mess about on the bike, feels very different, 90 psi, zero tokens, 25% sag. Very low initial friction and feels supportive as it goes further into the travel.
will report back when I've ridden it properly.

I swapped the O-rings on the seal head so hopefully thats sorted the air leak. feels much better at the same psi which is giving me about 30%. will have to get off road to see how it performs though but initial car park bounce and bunny hops show promise. if everything is ok tomorrow I'll set pressure kitted up.

The golf club clamp arrived today and worked a treat. Cheers for the heads up colp.

2 questions.

Someone who owns one is the luftkappe just expanding the negative? There's no magic valving or similar?

What forks are you putting these on?

It just increase the negative air Spring like the evol, debonair, corset cans do on shocks. Nothing is done to the damper side of things

Mine is on a 26 pike 160mm.

We were looking at the pics in my LBS and deduced that the Luftkappe is shifting volume from the positive chamber to the negative chamber, whilst keeping the seals moving along the same range within the fork (so the transfer port which charges the negative chamber is still in the right place).

It's basically replacing a simple flat piston with a heavily dished one, shaped a bit like a chemistry beaker. This reduction in positive chamber is similar to adding one token.

So I emailed STEVE from vorsprung:
When I lifted the bike it extended fully but with just the weight of the bike it went 2/3mm into the travel.
His response

2-3mm of variation in travel is pretty normal - it can actually allow sag under the weight of the bike alone, but if you lift the front wheel off the ground by the handlebars it should extend to full travel.

The extra negative air is in the dome of the luftkappe. Not a huge volume but does make significant difference

Yeah thats what I thought CGG - I just wanted to make sure it wasnt any more complex than that. Wondering if anyone has tried it on a Lyrik - which already has the same kind of negative chamber size so would be even biggerer).

antares - Member
The golf club clamp arrived today and worked a treat. Cheers for the heads up colp.

You're welcome mate!

Benpinnick
I fitted my luftkappe on a brand new 160mm lyrik, I've not trail tested yet so no real world reports.
Because of the negative pressure, the initial friction is ridiculously low, as I said the bikes own weight take 2/3mm of travel

Thanks Chris, let me know how you get on.

I've also just used the shaft clamp in the link to remove the piston head and it worked spot on. So again cheers for the link.
For anyone looking for Loctite 272 at a better price try here.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/282312051739?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Just did my lad's Lyrics.

Here's a good video to take you through the "pre Vorsprung" parts of the procedure:

[url]

Then just follow Vorsprung's own video.

A few tips:

The golf clamp works perfectly.
My forks are fairly new so the original grease was like new, so I re-used that.
Trickiest part was removing and reinstalling the stantion lower circlip, I had to tap the air seal with something blunt and a mallet to move it into the stantion enough to remove the circlip
To reinstall the circlip I had to push and hold the air shaft right in to create a vacuum behind the air seal.
All in including taking the fork off the bike and reinstalling etc took about 90 mins.

Just ordered!

Anyone not fitted theirs yet would they be kind enough to measure max width with vernier's so can see if can squeeze into set of Devilles which think have a larger diameter interior stanchion to normal

Over the widest part of the plastic it's 30.5mm, over the O-ring 31mm

Cheers buddy thanks a lot
Time to do some measuring

First proper ride today with the luftkappe fitted, (lyrik 160mm)
As said, small bump very good and felt very nice over general fast trail descents.
I was running 80 psi and 2 tokens, now zero tokens and 100psi, used all the travel on a 2/3 foot drop but didn't feel and bottom out so may try 1 or half a token with a bit lower pressure. Feels very different that pre luftkappe but as I've never tried a coil fork I cannot say it feels like that but it's certainly less divey if that's an explanation.

First ride with it on the way to work tomorrow and then a proper test in the evening. It may be a little damp...

Watching this wth interest.

chrisdiesel - What were you feeling the Lyrik was lacking and has it improved that?

I really like mine, but it doesn't quite feel as fluid as my old Marz RC3 ti coil forks - and it seems hard to get into the bottom of the travel.

I might just have too much air in it though, I'm not much of a tinkerer.

The larger negative spring makes the initial break away force less while it beefs up the mid stroke and provides ramp up at the end.

It will only beef up the midstroke if you remove some tokens and run less sag/more pressure.

If you really want midstroke support in an air fork you need to go to a three chamber air system like the Manitou IRT, the Ohlins system, The Pike/Lyrik/Boxxer AWK modification and every motocross air fork.

The Luftkappe combined with the AWK modification, would probably produce the best air sprung fork on the market - as the Ohlins supposedly suffers from a small negative spring chamber.

It will only beef up the midstroke if you remove some tokens and run less sag/more pressure.

You are expected to remove two tokens and run higher pressure, whilst still achieving the same sag. So it does considerably firm up the midstroke.

Chakapin: nothing really lacking from my lyrik, I'm kind of the opposite, I want to pull everything apart and mess and modify.
I'm 190lb in riding gear, I've tried it with and without one token.
The small bump is improved, and with zero tokens it will use its full travel and tracks very well. I'm still messing with rebound and air pressure. But definitely better than before, I think from what I've read the improvement is bigger on a pike because the lyrik already has a larger negative air section that a pike.

Can anyone offer advice on removing the piston head? Even with the proper shaft clamp in a vice no matter what I do the shaft just turns as I try to undo bolt.
I've tried inner tube, heating around the threads and also soaking it in hot water all to no avail.
Toys are about to get thrown

tighten the clamp up more? heat up the shaft more - it was a right effort to remove it for me and I know quite a few people have rounded the head on the bolt.

I think from what I've read the improvement is bigger on a pike because the lyrik already has a larger negative air section that a pike.

Aye, I don't feel I need to do anything with my Lyrik, but the Pike on my 29er could definitely benefit from some more support.

I dont like a marshmallow fork so tend to run higher pressure,which in turns has its downsides, luftkappe has been perfect, tons of support and very supple off the top.I can be a bit heavy handed at times so just got TF to install with a service :/

Well I ordered a luftkappe and a 2 quid ebay golf clamp today

exciting times

fwiw I dont have a problem with the charge damper, Ive never noticed the spike people talk about!

I just cant get the balance between small bump vs too divey right

hoping the luftkappe will fix it,
(I already replaced the grease in the -ve chamber with float fluid and found this helped a bit)

also got an evol sleeve s/h on pinkbike to play around with too

What is the AWK mod?

transition1 - How'd it go with the Deville... I have two sets that i'd love to give a little tweak.

So mines here but i dont have any red loctite

this one is available in halfords though

will i die if I use this stuff?

https://www.granvilleoil.com/techData/pdfTechData?ptdID=130

Well fitting was pretty easy (ive opened up the -ve chamber b4 so pretty happy with that part anyway)

I just left the seal head in a cup of hot water for ten mins, used the 2 quid ebay golf club holder in my bike workstand clamp and it unscrewed with a bit of force, but way easier than expected

I used Granville bearing fit & studlock as it seems to have the same spec as red loctite.

Only ridden it up and down the road, took out 2 tokens as suggested and extra 10 % PSI and its very plush and a bit brake divey, but sag is at 30%, and i susually run 20-25, so ill try for some extra PSI then maybe a token, wont get a proper ride till next weekend at the earliest tho