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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19903716
Not much on there yet, but I suspect it'll make for some rivetting bed time reading later.
Heres the statement from the head of USADA
Today, we are sending the ‘Reasoned Decision’ in the Lance Armstrong case and supporting information to the Union Cycliste International (UCI), the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), and the World Triathlon Corporation (WTC). The evidence shows beyond any doubt that the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team ran the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen.The evidence of the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team-run scheme is overwhelming and is in excess of 1000 pages, and includes sworn testimony from 26 people, including 15 riders with knowledge of the US Postal Service Team (USPS Team) and its participants’ doping activities. The evidence also includes direct documentary evidence including financial payments, emails, scientific data and laboratory test results that further prove the use, possession and distribution of performance enhancing drugs by Lance Armstrong and confirm the disappointing truth about the deceptive activities of the USPS Team, a team that received tens of millions of American taxpayer dollars in funding.
Together these different categories of eyewitness, documentary, first-hand, scientific, direct and circumstantial evidence reveal conclusive and undeniable proof that brings to the light of day for the first time this systemic, sustained and highly professionalized team-run doping conspiracy. All of the material will be made available later this afternoon on the USADA website at www.usada.org.
The USPS Team doping conspiracy was professionally designed to groom and pressure athletes to use dangerous drugs, to evade detection, to ensure its secrecy and ultimately gain an unfair competitive advantage through superior doping practices. A program organized by individuals who thought they were above the rules and who still play a major and active role in sport today.
The evidence demonstrates that the ‘Code of Silence’ of performance enhancing drug use in the sport of cycling has been shattered, but there is more to do. From day one, we always hoped this investigation would bring to a close this troubling chapter in cycling’s history and we hope the sport will use this tragedy to prevent it from ever happening again.
Of course, no one wants to be chained to the past forever, and I would call on the UCI to act on its own recent suggestion for a meaningful Truth and Reconciliation program. While we appreciate the arguments that weigh in favor of and against such a program, we believe that allowing individuals like the riders mentioned today to come forward and acknowledge the truth about their past doping may be the only way to truly dismantle the remaining system that allowed this “EPO and Blood Doping Era” to flourish. Hopefully, the sport can unshackle itself from the past, and once and for all continue to move forward to a better future.
Our mission is to protect clean athletes by preserving the integrity of competition not only for today’s athletes but also the athletes of tomorrow. We have heard from many athletes who have faced an unfair dilemma — dope, or don’t compete at the highest levels of the sport. Many of them abandoned their dreams and left sport because they refused to endanger their health and participate in doping. That is a tragic choice no athlete should have to make.
It took tremendous courage for the riders on the USPS Team and others to come forward and speak truthfully. It is not easy to admit your mistakes and accept your punishment. But that is what these riders have done for the good of the sport, and for the young riders who hope to one day reach their dreams without using dangerous drugs or methods.
These eleven (11) teammates of Lance Armstrong, in alphabetical order, are Frankie Andreu, Michael Barry, Tom Danielson, Tyler Hamilton, George Hincapie, Floyd Landis, Levi Leipheimer, Stephen Swart, Christian Vande Velde, Jonathan Vaughters and David Zabriskie.
The riders who participated in the USPS Team doping conspiracy and truthfully assisted have been courageous in making the choice to stop perpetuating the sporting fraud, and they have suffered greatly. In addition to the public revelations, the active riders have been suspended and disqualified appropriately in line with the rules. In some part, it would have been easier for them if it all would just go away; however, they love the sport, and they want to help young athletes have hope that they are not put in the position they were -- to face the reality that in order to climb to the heights of their sport they had to sink to the depths of dangerous cheating.
I have personally talked with and heard these athletes’ stories and firmly believe that, collectively, these athletes, if forgiven and embraced, have a chance to leave a legacy far greater for the good of the sport than anything they ever did on a bike.
Lance Armstrong was given the same opportunity to come forward and be part of the solution. He rejected it.
Instead he exercised his legal right not to contest the evidence and knowingly accepted the imposition of a ban from recognized competition for life and disqualification of his competitive results from 1998 forward. The entire factual and legal basis on the outcome in his case and the other six active riders’ cases will be provided in the materials made available online later today. Two other members of the USPS Team, Dr. Michele Ferrari and Dr. Garcia del Moral, also received lifetime bans for perpetrating this doping conspiracy.
Three other members of the USPS Team have chosen to contest the charges and take their cases to arbitration: Johan Bruyneel, the team director; Dr. Pedro Celaya, a team doctor; and Jose “Pepe” Marti, the team trainer. These three individuals will receive a full hearing before independent judges, where they will have the opportunity to present and confront the evidence, cross-examine witnesses and testify under oath in a public proceeding.
From day one in this case, as in every potential case, the USADA Board of Directors and professional staff did the job we are mandated to do for clean athletes and the integrity of sport. We focused solely on finding the truth without being influenced by celebrity or non-celebrity, threats, personal attacks or political pressure because that is what clean athletes deserve and demand.”
The Clinic over at Cyclingnews must be exploding right about now.
For over 30 years I have dedicated my life to cycling. I have always been determined to compete at the highest level, in one of the most physically demanding sports. With hard work and success have come great blessings from the sport I love.Teammates have become dear friends and I have worked hard to earn the respect of my competitors. I have been associated with managers and team officials whose professionalism is unparalleled. Wonderful fans have supported my family and me since I began this great journey. For all of this and more, I am truly grateful and proud.
Because of my love for the sport, the contributions I feel I have made to it, and the amount the sport of cycling has given to me over the years, it is extremely difficult today to acknowledge that during a part of my career I used banned substances. Early in my professional career, it became clear to me that, given the widespread use of performance enhancing drugs by cyclists at the top of the profession, it was not possible to compete at the highest level without them. I deeply regret that choice and sincerely apologize to my family, teammates and fans.
Quietly, and in the way I know best, I have been trying to rectify that decision. I have competed clean and have not used any performance enhancing drugs or processes for the past six years. Since 2006, I have been working hard within the sport of cycling to rid it of banned substances. During this time, I continued to successfully compete at the highest level of cycling while mentoring young professional riders on the right choices to make to ensure that the culture of cycling had changed.
About two years ago, I was approached by US Federal investigators, and more recently by USADA, and asked to tell of my personal experience in these matters. I would have been much more comfortable talking only about myself, but understood that I was obligated to tell the truth about everything I knew. So that is what I did.
Cycling has made remarkable gains over the past several years and can serve as a good example for other sports. Thankfully, the use of performance enhancing drugs is no longer embedded in the culture of our sport, and younger riders are not faced with the same choice we had.
I am proud to be part of the cycling community, and believe we continue to make positive changes to our sport. I applaud the extraordinary achievements of my fellow riders on and off the bike. Cycling is an incredible sport that not only requires unbelievable physical ability to ride hundreds of miles a day for many days on end; it also requires a certain type of dedication, ambition and character. I have been fortunate to compete with teammates whose commitment and talent will be hard to match. As a rider I have dedicated a large part of my career to helping those teammates succeed. As I begin the next chapter in my cycling life, I look forward to playing a significant part in developing, encouraging and helping young riders to compete and win with the best in the world.
Hincapies Statement
Michael Barry statement:
ormondroydMichael Barry:
Cycling has always been a part of my life. As a boy my dream was to become a professional cyclist who raced at the highest level in Europe. I achieved my goal when I first signed a contract with the United States Postal Service Cycling team in 2002. Soon after I realized reality was not what I had dreamed. Doping had become an epidemic problem in professional cycling.
Recently, I was contacted by United States Anti-Doping Agency to testify in their investigation into the use of performance enhancing drugs on the United States Postal Service Team. I agreed to participate as it allowed me to explain my experiences, which I believe will help improve the sport for today’s youth who aspire to be tomorrow’s champions.
After being encouraged by the team, pressured to perform and pushed to my physical limits I crossed a line I promised myself and others I would not: I doped. It was a decision I deeply regret. It caused me sleepless nights, took the fun out of cycling and racing, and tainted the success I achieved at the time. This was not how I wanted to live or race.
After the summer of 2006, I never doped again and became a proponent of clean cycling through my writing and interviews.
From 2006 until the end of my career in 2012, I chose to race for teams that took a strong stance against doping. Although I never confessed to my past, I wrote and spoke about the need for change. Cycling is now a cleaner sport, many teams have adopted anti-doping policies and most importantly I know a clean rider can now win at the highest level.
I apologize to those I deceived. I will accept my suspension and any other consequences. I will work hard to regain people’s trust.
The lessons I learned through my experiences have been valuable. My goal now is to help turn the sport into a place where riders are not tempted to dope, have coaches who they can trust, race on teams that nurture talent and have doctors who are concerned for their health. From direct experience, I know there are already teams doing this but it needs to be universal throughout cycling.
Progressive change is occurring. My hope is that this case will further that evolution
I wonder how many more of these statements we'll see today?
I'm deeply saddened by all this... I was a big fan of George Hincapie's, not so much Armstrong, Landis, Barry et al.
A sad day for cycling indeed.
Interesting that several who doped and were still competing have retired this year (Hincapie, Barry)... methinks this has to have been forced upon them rather than a personal choice of their own making.
And as for those still competing - Leipheimer, Zabriskie, Van de Velde, Danielson etc... good to see they're all banned now.
Recently finished 'The Secret Race' - sad even if it was a predictable read.
That is indeed it. Reading it just shows the extent of what was going on. Pretty convincing stuff.
The USADA statement quoted above is available [url= http://cyclinginvestigation.usada.org/ ]here[/url] as well as the Reasoned Decision and all of the supporting documents on the appropriate tab.
How long before "USPS The Movie"?
Suggestions for the lead role?
Suggestions for the lead role?
Stallone, plenty of drug use experience 😉
anyone still think Lance was clean? (apart from Lance that is)
I need to have a word with Jr's school about [i]pedalling[/i] this kind of propaganda in their Year 1 reading books... 😉
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For those that only have a vague interest in this, can someone please explain what evidence is in the USADA report other than testimonies please?
For starters, financial records of big transfers of cash to convicted doping supremo Dr Michele Ferrari, even after Armstrong claimed the relationship had ended. Why, does the testimony not convince you?
[url= http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/usadas-reasoned-decision-on-lance-armstrong-follows-the-money-trail ]More than just rider testimony.[/url]
the reasoned decison is one of the worst constructed documents ive ever set eyes on.
think LAs lawyer response will be more amusing
If its so badly constructed why did he not choose to contest it?
I find it heartening that riders who hadn't been caught came clean and told their stories.
I don't see how the "I never failed a test" defense can be taken very seriously now.
Its the doctors, particularly Michele Ferrari that I am most pi__sed off with. They have effectively stolen our sport and potential heros from us
Its the doctors, particularly Michele Ferrari that I am most pi__sed off with. They have effectively stolen our sport and potential heros from us
I blame MacDonalds. There must be at least one overweight American out there who could've been the next [drug-free] Armstrong, if it wasn't for Big Macs.
🙄
I've still got 190 pages to read before I give my opinion.
Even if he did cheat (as well as all the others) which is wrong. We should also remember all the good he has achieved with LiveStrong as well. And I'm not just saying that we should forget or condone cheating if he did.
Sad news about Hincapie though. Was another hero of mine
The UCI are complicit in all of this and McQuaid should go.
As a very minimum, how can they possibly accept large donations from Armstrong without being compromised?
IMHO they tried to appear to be doing something about doping (getting riders to sign up to meaningless health charters etc) while protecting the sports biggest star.
Cant say my heart has been in reading what for me appears to be a 'case' based on evidence from by their own admission ‘users of banned substances’ and U.S. Anti-Doping Agency’s view that no one can be that good without ‘using banned substances’.
For me it comes down to a few simple questions
Did Lance use banned substances? quite possibly
Did other Tour riders use banned substances? quite possibly
Did Lance get caught? No he never tested positive
So does the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency have a taste of sour grapes in their mouths? quite possibly
Given that history can't be un-done, books can't be un-written...
Buts all ok the following cyclists finished second to Lance Armstrong during his seven consecutive victories
1999: Alex Zulle, Switzerland
2000: Jan Ullrich, Germany
2001: Jan Ullrich, Germany
2002: Joseba Beloki, Spain
2003: Jan Ullrich, Germany
2004: Andreas Kloden, Germany
2005: Ivan Basso, Italy
Did other Tour riders use banned substances? quite possibly
not "quite possibly" but definitely - e.g. read David Millar's excellent book. What's appalling is how relatively young riders were pressured to take drugs often when they were at their very lowest physical and emotional points
Did Lance get caught? No he never tested positive
Yes he did, it got covered up. Have you been following the case at all, other than just believing every tweet by the messiah?
Even if he did cheat (as well as all the others) which is wrong. We should also remember all the good he has achieved with LiveStrong as well. And I'm not just saying that we should forget or condone cheating if he did.
I think it would be a lot easier to do that if he admitted the obvious truth and stopped being such a dick about it. That's kind of the sad thing, he obviously was/is an amazing athlete regardless - but I think most people would have a lot more respect for him if he showed a bit of honesty/humility now.
FRS supplements were advertising using LA's image and calling him "7 times winner" only yesterday on MTBR forums. Are they owned by Lance? I'd be worried if I sold sports supplements and he was the face of them right now!
Will the sentence handed to Lance also be handed to the others involved? Will riders from other teams in the tour during the 'Lance@ years be investigated as thoroughly? Not sure what, if anything, this is proving or achieving for anyone?
Kona TC - Member
[s]Cant say[/s] It breaks my heart [s]has been in[/s] reading what for me appears to be a 'case' based on evidence
FTFY
I really don't see what all the fuss is about, this wasn't the first time we've had drugs in sport and it won't be the last.
Kona TC - MemberDid Lance get caught? No he never tested positive
The report explains why he never tested positive. Hard to lose a game of poker when you hold all the cards.
something that has been bothering me for a long time now - what is Livestrong?? Im a cancer 'survivor' as the medical profession profess to call me and for the life of me I cant actualy work out or have been told (despite emails to them) what Livestrong actually do that is so good - they are not involved or pay anything into research, all I can see that they do is give cancer awareness talks around the US and fly around in private jets..?! And then tell everyone theyre doing a top job for hte cancer community!! LA aside this is something Im quite eager to find out as an awful lot of money is turned over by them...
votchy - Member
Will the sentence handed to Lance also be handed to the others involved? Will riders from other teams in the tour during the 'Lance@ years be investigated as thoroughly? Not sure what, if anything, this is proving or achieving for anyone?
It shows that even if you get away with it at the time there is every possibility you will get caught in the end.
Hopefully give the UCI a kick up the arse.
Which other US riders should the USADA be investigating then?
USADA, only have jurisdiction over American teams and riders, they can't investigate any of the others.
I truly hope these revelations will smash the UCI wide open and that a more honest and fair sport emerges.
It would also be nice if it served as a warning to other organisations and they removed their heads from their arses, yes FIFA I am looking at you.
ESP with MSP
They have effectively stolen our sport and potential heros from us
Well, no because surely if everyone was doing it then it just made it a level playing field, so its still fair competition, they just got to the finish line a bit quicker.
I think it would be a lot easier to do that if he admitted the obvious truth and stopped being such a dick about it. That's kind of the sad thing, he obviously was/is an amazing athlete regardless - but I think most people would have a lot more respect for him if he showed a bit of honesty/humility now.
+1
I think he's as guilty as sin, but the USADA reports really needed a proper smoking gun (it might have, but I've not seen it spouted out on the various forums so I'm assuming not).
Whilst all the circumstantial evidence is pretty much damming it really could have been game set and match with a killer blow of a dodgy blood sample or something in their possession.
I'm not 100% up to speed - are we still expecting jail terms etc. for this or is it just the ban, stripped of titles and go away to live on his $80m fortune in peace/shame?
They have effectively stolen our sport and potential heros from us
Well, no because surely if everyone was doing it then it just made it a level playing field, so its still fair competition, they just got to the finish line a bit quicker
yes and no, but they still lied to us. My kids were brought up watching the Tour and these guys became their heros - what do we say to them now. Its not a good example is it
stolen our hero's.
stolen FROM our heroes.
There are plenty of riders, like Moncoutie, Evans, Menchov who have had victories and a better place in the world of cycling kept from them because of cheats. And, Bassons a rider who dare speak out. Hounded out of the sport.
It's fine for people like George to say he's sorry (now he's retired). Give your money you cheatingly earned to anti doping if you're that sorry you cheating ****. And for the "i didnt dope since 96" bullshit, your salary was based on your cheats performances. Sorry to pick on george, there's hundreds of them. who cheated.
I love cycling, I mean love it. But this stinks, if the UCI doesn't see this as an opportunity to clean itself up, cycling mights as well go **** itself.
It's fine for people like George to say he's sorry (now he's retired). Give your money you cheatingly earned to anti doping if you're that sorry you cheating ****. And for the "i didnt dope since 96" bullshit, your salary was based on your cheats performances. Sorry to pick on george, there's hundreds of them. who cheated.
+1
The problem with the UCI is that you've gotta feel they were implicit in this somewhere down the line so any admission that this report is accurate is fairly damaging to them.
We should also remember all the good he has achieved with LiveStrong as well
And I guess we should remember that Jimmy Saville did a lot for charity when we consider his alleged crimes...?
This case is about whether Armstrong broke the rules of the sport by using prohibited performance enhancing substances and techniques, and the Livestrong fund is irrelevant.
If it turned out, for example, that Livestrong funds were misused in support of the doping conspiracy, that would be a different matter. However, despite some criticisms of the fund's finances and what it actually does, I don't think anyone has suggested this is the case.
I have raced for many years, and for me this is a good day for cycling. It would be naive to think that this draws a line under doping; there will always be a struggle between the cheats and the people trying to catch them. However, this is a serious prosecution of a systematic and long term abuse of the sport. It sends a clear message that no-one is above the rules and this stuff won't be brushed under the carpet. That trickles down to amateur level, which I think is great.
There aren't really any surprises about the "revelations" and who has fessed up here. The big surprise is that USADA have managed to put together such a comprehensive prosecution, where others failed. They have plodded carefully away, gathering the evidence and following due process without being sensational, and in the end, that has fatally undermined Armstrong's usual show boating, character assassination and indignant denials. I'm a bit cynical about the "honest" mea culpas from Hincapie et al. Let's remember that even if they did stop doping in 2006, they obviously hoped they could keep their heads down and continue making a living from the sport, without confessing. I think they would probably have quietly retired without saying anything, if USADA had not backed them into a corner and compelled them to tell the truth.
There's no reason to think that all rider's performances would be raised to the same extent by using drugs.
All we know is that Lance was the best drug taking tour cyclist between 1999 and 2005.
Interesting article on the role of Livestrong and how their money is spent.
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/athletes/lance-armstrong/Its-Not-About-the-Lab-Rats.html?page=all
sorry ac282, we cant even say that.
he was the most secret drug taking american cyclist to compete in grand tours between 1999 and 2005 - is slightly closer.
if he wanted an open doped competition, he should have opened his version of the rules up to the world.
The "all doing it thus level playing field" has been proved to a false argument. There is an upper ceiling of blood values set by the UCI. The further you are naturally away from them then the more benefit you get from the drugs program to get up to them. Also the more money you have then the better the program. This is not a level playing field. Various books have more detailed argument - Tyler's etc...
All we know is that Lance was the best drug taking tour cyclist between 1999 and 2005.
All we know is the drugs he took combined with the large amount of investment in team riders, aerodynamics, bikes etc. (and even valid things like training schedules, diet, 'proper' vitamin supplements etc. made him the fastest rider on the tour. I don't think you could say he was the best drug taking cyclist on the tour, many others could have surpassed him but they didn't have the financial backing to win and hence get the spotlight.
did nobody ever just consider the fact he may have been a better rider?
did nobody ever just consider the fact he may have been a better rider?
well who knows - no one can tell can they
Does anybody knowe what the USADA's end game is?
Blacken his name...fraud charges...jail time
Look, LA isn't admitting to [i]cheating[/i] because he has worked it around in his mind that he hasn't, wasn't and can't admit it even if he wanted to.
Ever since the days of Anquetil, possibly earlier. For some riders, the use of drugs was just as much a part of the sport as tyres.
Does anybody knowe what the USADA's end game is?Blacken his name...fraud charges...jail time
They have reached their end game, exposed a cheat and revealed the truth. The ball is no longer in their court.
At risk of sounding controversial I have my sympathies for Armstrong.
Drugs have been embedded in cycling for years, the late great Tommy Simpson being another example. According to friends/ family he held an anti-drug stance; moved to Europe and started using (speed back then I think). The reason quoted was that he wanted to compete with the top level competition and without drugs he could not.
Armstrong analysed the whole methodology necessary to win the tour a bit like BSkyB are doing now; he seems to have concluded that to win he would need the drugs that everyone else at the top end of the competition was using, unsurprising considering his complete focus upon the tour and incredible will to win.
I think he probably was the best at the time; the best rider, the best team and the best at taking drugs and not getting caught. Knowing what we know now can anyone be certain that the riders who came second to him in those seven years hadn't also taken drugs.
In some ways I believe he is being put up a a scapegoat for the era.
I do think he is being an #rse by not assisting and agree with Hincapie it is to the future that we should be looking.
did nobody ever just consider the fact he may have been a better rider?
He might have been a better rider, but we'll never know - we do now know he was taking banned performance enhancing drugs though.
did nobody ever just consider the fact he may have been a better rider?
From the extent of his preparation, it looks like Lance didn't think he was a better rider than everyone else...
At risk of sounding controversial I have my sympathies for Armstrong.
I think many would agree with you if he hadn't so agressively gone after people who were anti doping e.g. the report calls the Simeoni incident 'one of the most shameful incidents in our sport's history' iirc
What I dont understand is he worked his nuts off (yeah ok nut), he obviously made sure he was fit as fitterly-be, bike work, aerodynamics, team tactics, team selection, etc etc etc etc etc etc.
Then he takes chemicals.
Why? ****ing stupid ****.
He would have still won at least a handful of Tours I bet.
Look at the plastic bag that felled him, he got up and with grim determination stormed up and won on a broken pedal and probably in a bit of pain. That shows a man utterly driven to win. Yet his foible was to smack up like the rest of them.
****ing stupid ****.
Now fast-forward. Look at how dominant our Olympic team has been. I dont CARE that its because the velodrome was in England for the Games. Bollocks. When there was a French complaint that the Brits must be using 'special wheels' I thought 'wheels or the engine'?
Sorry, if individuals can evade justice for so long- how? Is cycling REALLY clean NOW?
Listen to what Armstrong is saying about not being able [i]fess-up[/i].
For me this helps illustrate how he views his actions.
Start at 1:50
Armstrong:
"[i]he doesn't feel like he's guilty[/i]"
I believe LA thinks the same way. Whether he will always hold to his current view of what he has done, only time will tell.
The sport is still full of hypocrisy, e.g. Wiggins going on about the great Tom Simpson, during this years tour - reverence for a drug cheat, what's all that about? Yet suggest Team Sky are like US Postal and he get's all upset.....
Reading on further it still smacks of the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency having a taste of sour grapes in their mouths, Lance outwitted them game set and match
He would have still won at least a handful of Tours I bet.
No, he would have been lucky to make the top 100.
I don't understand why everyone thinks that taking drugs is the path too easy sucsess without effort, its not they take drugs [b]on top[/b] of doing everything else. In fact the drugs allow them to train harder, then train harder again the next day, when an unassisted rider would still need time for his body to recover.
Reading on further it still smacks of the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency having a taste of sour grapes in their mouths, Lance outwitted them game set and match
He is not the messiah, he is a very naughty boy!
[i]Lance outwitted them game set and match [/i]
Not really, he and others... just used in a way that the tests of the time couldn't detect. Which, really, was down to the medicos who knew what the tests could and couldn't detect.
Now that more sensitive tests and proceedures such as those that Ashenden has helped to devise are coming in. Old samples are now showing positive results...
An arms race, kinda situation.
I call bollocks. Sorry bollocks.No, he would have been lucky to make the top 100.
I don't understand why everyone thinks that taking drugs is the path too easy sucsess without effort, its not they take drugs on top of doing everything else. In fact the drugs allow them to train harder, then train harder again the next day, when an unassisted rider would still need time for his body to recover.
The Millar & Hamilton books underline this, especially Hamilton's. The extent of fitness, weight loss & power development was immense - the doping took this up a level. In fact, Hamilton said he was not offered EPO until he got fit & lean enough.
from a non-roadie outsider like myself one thing has become pretty clear to me, and im sure this is the way LA is probably thinking...
by the sounds of the damning report of co riders, people he rode against etc etc etc, its pretty fair to say that yes he was cheating, but so was pretty much everyone else around him, the amount of people that have come out and admitted to cheating (big names), and no doubt a massive amount of people whom havent come out and admitted...
therefore pretty much as funkydunc above says, its a level ground, he was just the best rider in a bunch of cheats....id be totally against him if he was the only one, but it was a level playing field (pretty much) and he wont 5 in a row, and other drug cheats around him would have being doing more and more to stay in contention of him and they still couldnt get close....
i dont know why its not just laid to bed, it really does seem like a witch hunt, when reality is that the whole tour clearly from around that period was flawed, and ultimately they didnt trace his drugs at the time.....the tour then has to take some of the blame for its lack or inability to trace the drug users surely?
he cheated yes, but from what im reading so did pretty much every one else....how can they just witch hunt him because he was a better cheat than the people he raced against!?!
basically if he hadnt have won, whose to say the person next 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th placed rider wasnt doing it too?
just put the tour down to a cheat era around then and leave it at that....
contador has been found guilty and stripped today of a tour or two in modern day society, so it still goes on, minimal fuss really, he got stripped of his tours, and is now back riding pro again...this witch hunt against lance just seems a bit to personal for what ever reason....
Lance outwitted them game set and match
No he didn't when he had the chance to defend himself he chose to turn, run and try to undermine the work they'd done...
I call bollocks. Sorry bollocks.
You still don't understand this issue at all.
I was a big Lance fan growing up so am a bit saddened by how his career will now be remembered. It's pretty clear from the evidence that he doped but it also seems everyone else he was racing against was at it as well.
The sad truth is that most of the pasts cycling greats doped from the beginnings of the tour, even the likes of Merckx and Coppi admitted to doping and are still considered as some of the greatest cyclists of all time.
any pro sportsman or woman who has to resort to taking drugs to win should not be called a pro simple, they are just sportsmen or women or cant hack it with the true sports stars of the day, im sure there are still lots of sports people still willing to chance taking drugs to win, but in my book if you have to cheat to win then why bother in the first place, i would much rather look at my last place medal than look at my first place medal knowing i cheated to get it, i also dont agree with sports stars who because they admit what they have done should get a second chance, theres thousands of sports people who dont get into the big teams because of these dopers and cheats, there is of course the big reason why so many sportspeople choose to do it in the first place is it the money involved or the fear of failure or what i think that thats the only way they can win or keep winning, lance armstrong another knob bites the dust.
OscillateWidly.
If I may, I'd point out that LA and the other cheats in the peloton, were bumping clean riders either to the rear of the peloton or completely out of the sport.
So, imo, no, it wasn't really a "[i]LA was the best of a bad bunch[/i]" scenario at all.
[i]i would much rather look at my last place medal than look at my first place medal knowing i cheated to get it[/i]
Aye, but doesn't that depend on where you set the bar to define [i]Cheating[/i] ?. Some athletes obviously set that bar way low, etc, etc.
[i]i also dont agree with sports stars who because they admit what they have done should get a second chance, theres thousands of sports people who dont get into the big teams because of these dopers and cheats[/i]
imo, Its not that black-n-white. Also, in the context of Pro cycling, a lot of riders made it to being pro, as clean riders, [u]only then to be pressured[/u] / turned to taking drugs.
he cheated yes, but from what im reading so did pretty much every one else....how can they just witch hunt him because he was a better cheat than the people he raced against!?!
You might be able to make that argument if it wasn't also for the fact he has been shown to have pressured other riders to take part in doping, and bullied and harassed those that spoke out about it.
He could have put his energies and authority into racing clean. After all he is no pushover.
Solo - MemberOscilateWidly.
If I may, I'd point out that LA and the other cheats in the peloton, were bumping clean riders either to the rear of the peloton or completely out of the sport.
So, imo, no, it wasn't really a "LA was the best of a bad bunch" scenario at all.
i do appreciate, not everyone would have been cheating, and for those who were'nt its an awful thing...but i think its fair to say, most of his team mates were doing it, whats to say other teams were not doing the same just to stay in contention of him?
generally speaking though it does appear alot of riders from around that era have been found guilty of it, and as its so open and unknown now whose to say everyone around the era was'nt? its really flawed in saying it wasnt a level par, as at the time armstrong was never found to be cheating, so years on whose to say the other teams/riders near to him werent doing exactly the same?
at the time armstrong was never found to be cheating
Yes he was, it was covered up, really how hard is this to understand.
solo. imo, Its not that black-n-white. Also, in the context of Pro cycling, a lot of riders made it to being pro,only then to be pressured / turned to taking drugs.
my statement still stands what type of sportsman does that make you, same thing different sport would you take a dive in boxing to further your career