[Closed] Upgrading from DT Swiss 54T ratchet to 3 pawl FAIL - am I doing something wrong?

From what I've read the ratchet hubs are much more reliable than the pawl hubs so why??? 🙂

Stop freewheeling?

Is the conical spring square? Could see this causing the ratchet rings canting to one side.

This is pretty much what Dt advise

They say although there are several YouTube videos showing folk have done it. They must be running without seals as the design drawings say the seals won't fit.

You're massively downgrading your hub internals, for a start.

From what I’ve read the ratchet hubs are much more reliable than the pawl hubs so why??? 🙂

It's a myth, ratchet hubs are not necessarily more reliable, in fact they are more sensitive to the amount of grease used and chipped teeth on ratchets is not unheard of. Plus installation is less fool proof (springs can get caught on the ratchets).

There's nothing wrong with pawl hubs in fact I think it's a better design, for ratchets to be meaningfully more reliable I reckon you'd need to be a 200 kg hill-sprinter + pawls are much cheaper to replace.

The best road hubs today are Carbon-ti which are 4 pawl.

They say although there are several YouTube videos showing folk have done it. They must be running without seals as the design drawings say the seals won’t fit.

People have only done it the other way from pawl to ratchet, this works a lot better, but you might indeed compromise seal performance.

While I am completely flabbergasted that you are trying to do this at all as I am a huge fan of DT ratchet hubs, have a pair of 240s that have been in half a dozen wheels and have been utterly reliable and bombproof.  In the interests of mutual benefit I would be interested in the 54T ratchet rings if you are getting rid of, and I have a spare set of the 18T rings which, while much less engagement (not that much of an issue on road), they are much, much quieter when properly installed, practically silent which might be the cheapest way around your issue with the noise.??

#EDIT : As i understand it the 54T rings have much beefier springs to ensure good engagement which would also contribute to the noise/oscillation issue you have. As for reliability, a mate of mine had an original set of the Hugi hubs with the ratchet ring from before DT bought the company, hubs must be 25 years old, have done 10,000+ miles and not only are the ratchets still perfect, he is still on the original bearings.!!

#EDIT : As i understand it the 54T rings have much beefier springs to ensure good engagement which would also contribute to the noise/oscillation issue you have

The springs are the same part number. You can quiet the 54T too if you drown it in grease, but I do want some noise, helpful to let people hear you're coming and I like it. Thanks for the offer, going to try a 24t shipped from Germany though - hopefully a happy medium 😉

Right, this and you other threads, I am now convinced you are a troll, you are doing well fishing people in. Congrats

I have a set of 24 ratchets if you want to swap?
Used a couple of short rides before my 36 ones arrived for my fatbike.

DT78 who's the troll - you didn't contribute anything to this thread. Do you think I ordered all these parts to troll people on a forum? right.

@bedmaker thanks but ordered em for cheap from a german store, I will however have 54t ones avail.

I will however have 54t ones avail.

Still interested once you've sorted your (bizarre! 😉 ) issue out and are moving the 54T ones on..

Still interested once you’ve sorted your (bizarre! 😉 ) issue out and are moving the 54T ones on..

Cool, let me just check if they're actual DT ratchets (got the wheels from Farsports), will do that when I get the new ones tomorrow or monday 🙂

Bedmaker I’ll take your 24 tooth ratchets, just sent you a pm

Decided to try to upgrade my DT350 54t ratchet hub which sounds terrible on a carbon wheel roadbike (plus it’s draggy and expensive) – to their lovely even sounding 3 pawl 24 POE freehub which you get with DT370 hubs.

For reference... Despite your allusions such, the DT Swiss 3 pawl internals are definitely NOT an upgrade over their star ratchet system. The DT Swiss 3 pawl system is pretty unreliable actually in my experience, it's far less robust than many other pawl drive hubs out there. Yes, the parts are relatively cheap to fix the system, but I've seen the pawls, the springs and the retaining clip all break with alarming regularity, under some not particularly heavy users.

The DT Star Ratchet system...? Easily the most reliable freehub design I know of. It's so simple, yet so effective, and whilst the noise with the 54T ratchets can perhaps (subjectively) be a bit annoying, with a 36/24/18 ratchet they are more than acceptable noise wise and will go on and on and on trouble free for years!

If anyone else on here has some upgrade ratchet rings (I have 18T still) in VGC, gimme a PM... I'd be very interested in taking them off your hands.

Yes, the parts are relatively cheap to fix the system, but I’ve seen the pawls, the springs and the retaining clip all break with alarming regularity, under some not particularly heavy users.

Thanks for the anecdotes, but seems like 99% of people are happy with the 370s and for road use where you're not smashing them into the drive ring you shouldn't have any problems.

DT has at least two different pawl hubs btw, one 2 pawl older one and the newer 3 pawl ones.
For reference never had any issue with Hope Pro Evo 2 pawls, looks less robust than the DT ones but maybe they aren't.

Thanks for the anecdotes,

That pretty ironic, considering you're comparing the truly odd opinion of 1 person and his confirmation bias (which appears to be based predominantly on sounds, and poor fitting) to that of someone who, I believe, owned a bike shop for a considerable length of time. I'd argue his experience carried more weighting, even if you don't consider it enough to be statically significant.

And also the opinion of most other people I've spoken to (does multiple anecdotes beat 1 anecdote? Who knows) who value performance over some weird obsession with noise.
Fwiw, RS4s are 2 pawl, btw (but you can fit 2 extra if you want more noise, and more drag)
They're not fool proof either, the tiny springs ping off over the workshop/lawn and get lost, and it's definitely possible to fit them so the pawls work in reverse(this fool has tested that)

That pretty ironic, considering you’re comparing the truly odd opinion of 1 person and his confirmation bias

Nah, multiple reviews and long term experiences with DT370 hubs - incl users on here one of which think they're better than Hope (better sealed), but they don't make them in 24h straight pull.

I believe, owned a bike shop for a considerable length of time.

I'm pretty sure they only broke with MTB use, correct me If I'm wrong. My point is that the strength of pawls won't be an issue for road use unless you use your road bike for trials.

value performance over some weird obsession with noise

No performance benefit for road use at higher cost, and the noise issue is amplified 10x at higher speeds with deep carbon wheels - I didn't know better at the time.

You're right hope pawls aren't fool proof although personally never had any problems, but DT ones are!..should have gotten Carbon-ti :p

It’s a myth, ratchet hubs are not necessarily more reliable, in fact they are more sensitive to the amount of grease used and chipped teeth on ratchets is not unheard of

You sir are absolutely full of it, I've never had a DT star ratchet mechanism fail, and that includes numerous 24hr and 12hr races. I have however ripped a DT pawl freehand to bits while riding.

Top work on the down grade to your hubs though 👌🏼

https://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/dt240s-hub-star-ratchet-failure-665252.html
https://forums.mtbr.com/29er-bikes/catastrophic-failure-dt-swiss-36-point-hub-602813.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/tandem-cycling/1165524-dt-swiss-ratchet-chipping.html

And there's more, granted ratchets might be more reliable for MTB use, but not for ROAD use which is what we're talking about.

Honestly this does continue to get sillier.

It’s a myth, ratchet hubs are not necessarily more reliable

It's absolutely true. Star ratchet hubs are more reliable. Co-branded 370 hubs have had wide product recalls for failures with pawl/ring failure.

Plus installation is less fool proof (springs can get caught on the ratchets).

I do think you need to own your ham fistedness here. Sorry.

As far the binding seal issue. Does it work with no seal?
Are you using the 370 seal or the 350 seal?
The two seals are different. The 370 sits on the driver, the 350 in a machined lip in the hub shell.
My guess would be that you want to remove the 350 seal from the hub and remove the lip machined in the hub shell and allow the 370 seal to do its job. I'd obviously suggest you try and fit before you start dremeling any material away.
Alternative might be the reverse, keep the 350hub seal and Dremel the lip off the driver body. But I don't have the problem in front of me to suggest which way is best beyond offering potential solutions.

However, like your 'sample size of one' experience in the ratchet install, you are probably breaking ground as the only person to retro fit 370 internals.

I'm all for you hacking hubs to get the result you want, but please stop with the 240/350 reliability nonsense.

how much for your 54t ratchet then?

Worth noting, from the 3 links.
1 used slickhoney
1 used royal purple
1 was a touring tandem, 370lbs of mass, mammoth Hawaii climbs. Broken but still functional.

how much for your 54t ratchet then?

£30 + shipping.

It’s absolutely true. Star ratchet hubs are more reliable.

They're not more reliable for road use where both are totally reliable.

For MTB it makes sense that ratchets could be more reliable, but there are more threads about ratchets failing than pawl hubs, and we're talking 370 hubs not co-branded whatever which might not be equivalent and might be about their 2 pawl hubs. Maybe ratchet owners are more vocal, certainly seems that way - damn ratchet fanclub this!

I do think you need to own your ham fistedness here. Sorry.

Never had an issue with Hope hubs and took them apart a zillion times, if you're not aware that it can happen with ratchet hubs (which is not obvious) then it has nothing to do with being hamfisted.

As far the binding seal issue. Does it work with no seal?
Are you using the 370 seal or the 350 seal?
The two seals are different. The 370 sits on the driver, the 350 in a machined lip in the hub shell.

Doesn't work with no seal or either seal, the 350 hub doesn't have a flange that fits the 3-pawl freehub seal, and if using the 350 seal it doesn't mesh with the 3-pawl freehub so it makes sense that it only works to go from DT370 to ratchet but not from DT350 to 3-pawl.

Adding a lip to the 350 hub body could work, but I'd want a lathe to do that with any sort of precision, so going to try the 24t ratchet next.

However, like your ‘sample size of one’ experience in the ratchet install, you are probably breaking ground as the only person to retro fit 370 internals.

Lol, yes, heed my warning.

That pretty ironic, considering you’re comparing the truly odd opinion of 1 person and his confirmation bias (which appears to be based predominantly on sounds, and poor fitting) to that of someone who, I believe, owned a bike shop for a considerable length of time. I’d argue his experience carried more weighting, even if you don’t consider it enough to be statically significant.

Thank you for the support. 👍🏻

Thanks for the anecdotes, but seems like 99% of people are happy with the 370s and for road use where you’re not smashing them into the drive ring you shouldn’t have any problems.

DT has at least two different pawl hubs btw, one 2 pawl older one and the newer 3 pawl ones.
For reference never had any issue with Hope Pro Evo 2 pawls, looks less robust than the DT ones but maybe they aren’t.

Through bitter experience, and a number of disappointed customers, I learnt make sure I always had both DT 3 pawl and Hope springs and pawls (and the retaining clips in the case of DT) in stock at all times... I had a lot of customers putting the miles in (mostly on road too), and these designs just aren't up to the regular abuse without constant maintenance IMO. I have Hope Pro4 hubs on one of my bikes, they're really not bad at all, but if I was riding it every day and relied on it (I don't, far from it in fact in the case of this particular bike!) it would have DT Swiss ratchet hubs on it for sure.

The worst I've had to do to a star ratchet hub is to clean it out when a ham fisted customer took theirs apart, and assumed it needed a lot of grease when putting it back together, so it started slipping. Once I'd cleaned it, and reinstalled the correct amount of (the right consistency) grease in it, said customer didn't have another problem!

I've done thousands of miles on Star Ratchet hubs... No issues, not one, not even had to replace a bearing on any of those hubs either! I know people that have done far more miles on their than mine, and again, no issues... Even the 54T ratchet rings that DT don't recommend for heavier riders, I know heavy riders that use them on their MTB's and haven't had an issue too, though I've stuck with the 18's or 36's myself.

They’re not more reliable for road use where both are totally reliable.

They are... MOST of the 3 pawl freehub issues I've seen have been on road bikes, some under heavy users, many under occasional use only! NEVER seen a Star Ratchet failure in person...

Never had an issue with Hope hubs and took them apart a zillion times

Hope pawled freehubs are in general more reliable than the DT Swiss 3 pawl system, but I've seen many issues in the past. Not enough to stop me from recommending them as a cheaper alternative to DT Swiss Star Ratchet hubs, but enough to know that they aren't as trouble free as you are making out... They are nicer to work on than DT 3 pawl, and parts are cheap and readily available mind, part of why they're so popular I guess.

so going to try the 24t ratchet next.

I genuinely think, seeing as your original complaint seemed to be about noise, this should fix the issue... If it doesn't, then send me your 24T rings and I'll send you some 18T ones instead.

does multiple anecdotes beat 1 anecdote? Who knows

I guess some people need to remind themselves that whilst it's fine to have an opinion, just because they believe in it with extreme conviction, it doesn't necessarily make it fact! 🤷🏻‍♂️

If it doesn’t, then send me your 24T rings and I’ll send you some 18T ones instead.

I already offered to swap with 36T and got ignored.

Right, this and you other threads, I am now convinced you are a troll, you are doing well fishing people in. Congrats

I know, right! I dunno why he bothers because he never listens anyway!

Thread 1: What cheap carbon Chinese wheels
Conclusion: I've bought amazing wheels

Followed by:

Thread 2: I've got weird ripples in the carbon, whats wrong with my rims.

And

Thread 3: My hubs make a weird noise, I don't like them.

The way he goes on you'd think he was a child haha

They are… MOST of the 3 pawl freehub issues I’ve seen have been on road bikes,

Interesting, so the pawls break? How many are we talking here breaking with pure road use? I'd be surprised if DT released such a rubbish design that it often breaks on the road tbh.

Hope pawled freehubs are in general more reliable than the DT Swiss 3 pawl system,

Good to know, definitely liked my hopes and their excellent customer service compared to DT, unfortunately they were not an option from farsports.

I genuinely think, seeing as your original complaint seemed to be about noise, this should fix the issue… If it doesn’t, then send me your 24T rings and I’ll send you some 18T ones instead.

Thanks! (re ignoring, wanted 24T)

I know, right! I dunno why he bothers because he never listens anyway!

Calm down - Farsports's been recommended here actually, the ripples in one spot is an annoying cosmetic defect, but you only see it if you look for it, might try to get a discount or replacement. Otherwise the wheels are indeed lovely. In retrospect I would have asked for a closer visual inspection before building the wheels.

I took the recommendation to not get a skinsuit and just went for a jersey instead.

I took the rec to get a Garmin 520 plus.

Got the prime primavera carbon bars after people said they were good.

Do I like to discuss gear on forums too much? Yes.

Thread 3: My hubs make a weird noise, I don’t like them.

I like the hubs, but I don't like the noise the rachets make, I didn't know how carbon wheels and high speeds make 54t sound terrible nor did I know of the oscillation issue - no-one warned me either ;p. Lesson learned, at least it will benefit someone here who wants 54t.

I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek, don't worry 😉

Got the 24T ratchet, sounds less infernal at half the volume of the 54T. Still oscillates but It's thankfully not as noticeable. Bit too meager sounding to get people out of the way perhaps.

Will have to consider if I want to bother rebuilding the wheel just to a nice even ticking noise ;p

54t as-new ratchet is for sale incl new springs and an unused pot of red dt grease - it doesn't have a DT logo on it. £30 plus prob £5 in shipping.

If "discussing gear on forums too much" is a problem then a lot of us are in trouble.

Interesting, so the pawls break?

Ohhhh yes!

How many are we talking here breaking with pure road use?

Enough that I used to keep them in as spares in my shop all the time, as had seen quite a few issues with it, and though DT Support is good from Madison (for parts) and TFTuned (for warranty), they are reliant on getting the spares in from another country rather than making them in house themselves.

I couldn't give a figure, but it's more often than I expected and than you might imagine... Treat them as a consumable, put it that way!

I’d be surprised if DT released such a rubbish design that it often breaks on the road tbh.

Life constantly surprises me too... 🤷🏻‍♂️

54t as-new ratchet is for sale incl new springs and an unused pot of red dt grease – it doesn’t have a DT logo on it. £30 plus prob £5 in shipping.

Go on then... If nobody else has had them already, I'll take em for that price. 👍🏻

I'll interpret that as more than 10 which is a fair bit.

f nobody else has had them already, I’ll take em for that price.

Bruneep was first, it's £30 plus £7 in shipping w tracking from Germany, if he doesn't get back to me within within a day you can have em :>

have msged you back