"unproductive" training

Garmin connect is for casuls. Just use it as a conduit to transfer the data into something sensible like intervals.icu or training peaks.

That being said, is it actually wrong here? Too much pseudo-intensity is unproductive and that sounds like what you're doing.

That being said, is it actually wrong here? Too much pseudo-intensity is unproductive and that sounds like what you’re doing.

Agreed, I mean, I hate the term 'junk miles' because most often they're the big epic weekend rides we all live for, but I do notice that I'm knackered for a week after, and that's probably what Garmin means by unproductive, i.e. I didn't go hard enough to improve my fitness, but I didn't take it easy enough that I could get back on it and train again the next day or the day after. That's probably what Garmin means by 'unproductive'. If it's measuring your heartrate and your max heart rate is in the 180BPM region then 'unproductive' probably sits in the 150BPM region.

Again, unfortunately that's the area you'll probably spend in hours in if you're just going out to have fun 🙄

I was having this for ages on my Garmin, make sure you have your heart rate zones set correctly, including your resting heart rate. As soon as I updated mine it stopped telling me that a 4 hour ride was easy and only needed 10 hours recovery and started to make sense !

I have done some reasonably hard workouts on zwift and decent length of rides/ climbs

High intensity riding needs to be short(20-40 mins IMO), and you need to be well recovered to do them. If you do a longer ride of say 90 mins with short efforts in it, like climbs, you aren't getting the same training effect. It may still be a good effect but it's not the same. On Zwift, you can get this by doing a crit race - these are 20 mins and absolutely flat out with no rest.

That said, it is possible to reach a plateau with your training, and I think that Garmin takes this into account. If you have done the same training for years, you will reach that plateau, and Garmin will instruct you to incrrease your load to get fitter. The fitter you get the more or higher intensity training you need to do to get fitter, depending on what kind of 'fitness' you want.

That’s probably what Garmin means by ‘unproductive’. If it’s measuring your heartrate and your max heart rate is in the 180BPM region then ‘unproductive’ probably sits in the 150BPM region.

Definitely what I end up doing too much of.

I don't use Garmin connect so not sure what data it uses. But you need to know the split of different intensity HR zones you are spending your exercise time in. Then you will know definitively whether you are doing the correct mix to build the right kind of fitness.

If you have that more granular information to share then folks can give you more focussed feedback

Low intensity isn't always unproductive. It is the best way to increase endurance, but you need to do a lot of it.

A long low intensity ride is productive, a short low intensity ride is not productive. A long high intensity ride may also not be productive because it makes you too tired, your body too stressed, and when this happens you feel you are riding as hard as you can but you're not actually in the high intensity zone, so you're in training no-man's-land.

Definitely what I end up doing too much of.

I recently did one of my longest road rides ever and finished feeling surprisingly good for the distance and elevation. The secret was really making sure I didn't stray into that 'sportive' zone which I seem to associate with 154BPM randomly. I remember riding sportives at that pace always telling myself I needed to pace myself more but not really pacing myself, always just riding out of my comfort zone but holding on for the duration. All well and good for a one-off event but not ideal if you're wiped out for a week after!

(for reference a good sweetspot workout for me is low/mid 160BPM and FTP something like 171BPM).

That big ride I did where I sat below 150BPM for everything but the climbs, I was back on it midweek feeling great. It's a subtle change to big ride pacing but I think it worked wonders, just need to try and translate it to the gravel bike where it's much harder to sit in lower zones.

Garmin often tells me this even though I’ve been on an upward curve of fitness until a recent weight training injury. I just tend to ignore it tbh - I use trainer road / turbo to gauge how I’m doing - and just how fit / fast I feel on my bike.

That said Garmin said I was productive after a quick road ride last night. I’d done 3 days of riding in a row on the weekend (long weekend in North Wales) and last night was cruising with a few big sprints. First time out on the road with a power meter so maybe with that extra data it’s got a different view of what I’ve done?

I think you need to record everything on your Garmin device for it to count.

Ride on zwift pushed onto Garmin via Strava doesn't feed into it (I think)

Record on Zwift and your garmin at the same time. Delete the Zwift ride once it appears on Garmin.

Also the relationship between Garmin watches and bike computers is weird my 530 and Fenix 6 don't add into certain metrics. So if I ride without wearing my watch I don't get any Intensity minutes on Garmin Connect which is insane.

Mine is saying the same.  It seems to be based on calculated vo2 max. Which has speed slightly because it has been hot and i haven't been running as hard.

I just ignore it

I find it of limited use since it can only look at a limited subset of what happens in training eg on a couple of occasions it told me I was detraining after a 5k run I assume because I was a lot slower and working a lot harder.
One of those times was the morning of one of the big storms and whilst it was still building it was a rather harsh headwind.
Another time was when instead of the normal flattish 5k I do at home I ran up from Hawkshead to the Grizedale carpark and back. Rather more elevation than normal.

Although as others have said making sure your heart rate zones are right may help if you are someone who has a relatively low max heart rate.

Mine is the same, the issue with Garmin connect is that it basis your training status purely on your Vo2 max calculation, which needs a power meter for cycling so unless you’re running. Regularly you’re going to struggle. Mine was up and down and reasonably accurate over covid when I was doing a lot of zwifting. But now it’s stuck at unproductive, unless I have a light week when it’s maintaining or a really light week when I’m recovering or detraining.

I'd suggest using Crickles to establish your heart rate zones then update them on garmin, though even if you've set them it seems it'll override those settings if you hit a new max hr (eg if your strap has slipped and you hit 200+). For a while after that I could go all in on a ride and it'd still show as low aerobic until I reset the max hr back to a sensible number. I've now got the opposite problem to the op where I'm being nagged about doing more base rides but lately most of my riding has been short local spins and I cba to regulate my effort on them.

As someone mentioned above the training status thing is also heavily linked to the trend in your vo2 max. Mine has dropped to mid 50s in the recent heat so garmin has put me firmly in the unproductive zone for a while too.

I'm currently struggling to get out of "maintaining" on Garmin, though my "fitness" number in intervals.icu has been on an upward trend for 3 months. As with weather forecasts, it's best to look at a few every day and pick the one you like the look of 😂

How "normal people" can train like the worlds best endurance athletes | Stephen Seiler | TEDxArendal

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the training status thing is also heavily linked to the trend in your vo2 max. Mine has dropped to mid 50s in the recent heat

Interesting. My running vo2 max has increased despite the recent hot spell. Mind you, it's still only at 46, not mid 50s. It'll help that I've lost some weight too.

Interesting. My running vo2 max has increased despite the recent hot spell

Ah but remember there's a difference between a Scottish hot spell and actual warm weather 🙂

Yes, well that's the other issue I have. Garmin calculates a Heat Acclimatisation number but you have to be exercising at 22C and above before it does so. For those of us more used to 12C that seems a bit unfair 😂

What Garmin device (s), out of interest?

Very interesting discussion and glad its not just me that its sub optimising.  I had a look at the settings and it had my max HR at 172 which it must have adjusted because I am sure I set it at 162 which is the standard 220-age setting as a baseline and tbh 162 is my flat out HR.  So will see what effect - comments also chime with what my HR is doing - having been active more than usual for last 3-4 months my average HR has dropped for same effort so potentially confusing the algorithm.  That said I am a fan of the watch and app in general for tracking activity and recovery via effort, speed, routes, rest and HVR.

Fenix 7s for me.

I have no doubt the heart has affected it,  but it amuses me there is a heat acclimatisation reading but it doesn't seem to adjust anything.

Apparently my vo2 max has dropped from 53 to 52.

Yeah, I got given some intervals at threshold by my watch (fr255) yesterday and really struggle to get my heart in to that zone and keep it there when I'm in a condition that's considered well rested enough to do intervals! 🤣

Striking how often I get improvement notifications on recovery runs too

I've a vo2 max better than ever, aware that it's unlikely to be that accurate but seeing that trend is good enough for me.

FWIW I've found that watch-based BR measurement is a bit laggy and unstable for short intervals. I tend to wear a chest HRM for that sort of exercise now.

Understand that but thanks anyway. These were 4x6mins with a couple of minutes rest between. I think my legs just lag behind what my heart can cope with. I was breathing hard enough too 🤷

I'm not worried about it. Running is secondary to riding by some way.

I think the whole thing is a lie.

Unproductive, junk, blah blah blah!

It's all so companies and individuals can sell you something.

And everyone has bought into it and in the giant echo chamber of the Internet it has become fact.

Right... A lie concocted by Big Fitness .

I mean, what if that's right and we're just exercising and getting fitter for nothing??

No, it's not that.

It's this rubbish about 'unproductive' training. Every mile, every ride, every run, walk, sleep, lift, meal, contributes towards your fitness and overall functionality.

An easy bike ride with a mate? A year of easy bike rides? Of course they are productive.

Feel good ride fast, feel tired ride slow. Its so simple and we all did it like this until the magazines told us not to and then the tech companies got all excited and sold us lots of stuff.

I'm kind of with Rollindoughnut here. Ride your bike how you want. It will make you fitter. I've ridden bikes as a hobby for 25 years now and raced pretty successfully on and off since 2002. When I've not been fit, I've not been riding as much as when I was fit.

I ride a lot, and I ride quite hard. I don't use a heart rate monitor, nor a power meter. I have a computer with my speed on it and that's it. If I'm going faster, I'm fitter. If I go faster than I did before, my fitness is going up. If I'm wrecked, I'm overdoing it. I do understand the heart rate stuff but I train by feel. Today I went out on a bit of a mash-fest and I really enjoyed it. I'll probably do it again tomorrow. I'll take a week off before my next race, and hopefully I'll do alright.

I'd not worry too much about what your Garmin is telling you and ride in a way that you enjoy that you can tell is making you fitter, if you even want to get fitter, which you don't have to.

Thanks munrobiker. I've ridden and trained in every which way for the majority of my life. Race results are always pretty uniform.

I started running two years ago. Am dogmaticaly sticking to no data whatsoever. Just a wris****ch so I'm not late for work. I'd say most of my miles would be classed as junk miles by the definitions people use, yet I love going out with a friendly bunch and running to feel. I'm getting pretty quick off it too.

Ride your bike how you want.

Maybe they are interested in training and how bodies work. Maybe that Is how they want to ride.  Is that ok with you?

I'm not keen on people invalidating others' interests and intellectual curiosity.

I’m getting pretty quick off it too.

I totally get the "just ride" thing. That's what I'm doing right now. And yes, it can of course make you quick. But structured training makes you quicker faster and more reliably for a given amount of effort. This is incontrovertible. However, you don't have to do it. As you say, ride how you want, but that includes people who want to train.

If you're really into training as a thing, that's fair enough, but the OP doesn't seem to be saying that. To me it reads as "I'm riding this way, but my Garmin wants me to ride another way". I know when I do follow a training plan, I'm very rarely riding how I want to ride. I'm either twiddling along in Zone 2, wishing I was moving more quickly, or having to develop awkward routes to fit in certain intervals. The OP seems to be riding in a way that he wants to, and I don't think he should change based on what his Garmin says if he doesn't want to.

Molegrips. I don't think you're getting my point. I'm not invalidating training. I'm disputing the term unproductive that the OPs garmin account was suggesting. That I think is garbage.

Indeed the thread title is "unproductive" training. The OP has seen The Matrix hence the "".

<p style="text-align: left;">That I think is garbage.</p>

Based on what? Science?

Nah just gut feeling and experience.

Given that when I am wearing a drysuit and attach my Fenix 6 something  to the should strap of my boyancy aid it records a heart rate.

It thinks calm lakes and calm seas are not flat.

I take everything it says with a pinch of salt.

It also thought an eleven hour drive in pissing rain from the Highlands to Manchester was restful and low stress.

Nah just gut feeling and experience.

A sample size of one, then.

Think of me as Neo if it helps.

High aerobic is like Tempo, Sweetspot and Threhsold work so if you want to rationalise it- you need to do some longer steady state work. Rather than lots of hard on/off type interval sessions and races etc, hold ‘uncomfortably hard’ for increasing amount of time. 2x20min, 3x15min, 2x30min etc.

It’s a bit of a dirty word when everyone is focussed on Z2 or MAF type training but ‘Tempo’ work is really potent.

I built up to doing 2h30 rides at 270w earlier in the year. No spikes, no troughs, just constant effort and boy did it give me a good foundation! Those rides had eveolved since Xmas from mid to high Z2 and then into Tempo and finally Threhold intervals.

I have to say, in all fairness to Garmin, the times when I was really nailing my self-concocted plan based on Friels books, Garmin generally concurred that I was bang on too so I think with good data in- it’s actually a pretty useful tool.

I’m skipping all my easy ‘filler’ rides at the minute and just doing 2 or 3 ‘junk’ grey-zone rides each week and sure enough, it’s spotted my lack of low-aerobic and is advising to add it back in.

Whilst smoking a joint the other day my watch told me I would need longer to recover after. Wasn't even that strong.

I miss the days when I could just get on my bike and ride all day.  Now, if I want to be able to do that, I have to actually pay attention to all the stuff in this thread and more.

I hate young people.

I was in a mischievous mood last night but I do stand by my beliefs.

Good example this morning: I'd planned a hard run in the classic Thursday threshold session style. However I was tired and sore from previous sessions (and my job) so I just jogged down by the river instead, stopping occasionally to enjoy the dawn.

If on a prescribed program, it would have considered that a missed workout and my jog as unproductive. However in the circumstances my choice was by far the most productive thing I could have chosen for my long term training goals, both physically and mentally.

Pre packaged plans and electronic gizmos cause people to make dumb choices. I believe their net affect is more negative than positive in the long run. This is coming from experience having done both styles of training and talking to many fellows over the years.

Just tell your Garmin to stop being a prick, it will get the message.

Last time I ended myself on the rowing machine my phone asked me if I wanted to locate nearby takeaways. Google should do more fitness stuff!

IMO there's a difference between being interested/bemused/baffled by Garmin's opinion of your activity and being hostage to it. I don't think many people subscribe to a philosophy of 'Garmin says this therefore I must obey', we're mostly sharing views around 'I did this and Garmin said that - huh?'.

And thanks to Joshvegas I now have an idea for a new Strava add on - it will find takeaways near the end of your activity and using state of the art AI (of course) will select appropriate dishes to offset the calories you just burned, with a premium option of integrating with Deliveroo.

If you want to see ridiculous, a mate of a mate did a ride recently. Something like 4.5 hours in the saddle, handful of small climbs. Garmin says "Unproductive".

It was a UCI 1.Pro event.

He was just outside the top 30.

Pre packaged plans and electronic gizmos cause people to make dumb choices.

Garmin is not as good as a real coach, obviously, and in this case it's not actully prescribing workouts. My watch does "suggest" workouts but that's all it is - a suggestion. I'm sure that if you read all the blurb it would caveat this with the things you say.

The value of these things is that they shine a light on the type of riding you are doing and what you may be missing. In my experience most motivated people are completely ignorant of the need for base miles, for example, and will simply ride hard all the time thinking the harder the better. Riding long and slow is unintuitive.

But you obviously need to listen to your body. Any human coach you would pay says this, so Garmin needs to as well. And indeed, my watch does that. It says "you have done a load of riding and your heart rate shows you are tired, so take a rest day".

Something like 4.5 hours in the saddle, handful of small climbs. Garmin says “Unproductive”.

It was a UCI 1.Pro event.

That's my point. A race is not a training ride. Too hard a ride is also unproductive.

Oooh how do you get separate running and cycling VO2 maxs, do you need a power meter on your bike?

I've got a Fenix 6 and only have the one VO2 max.

The value of these things is that they shine a light on the type of riding you are doing

Oh, I thought the value was the data that Garmin collects...Or have I got that wrong? I especially enjoy the way that Garmin shows you the data field is zero for instance...You could have data...If you bought this extra thing [that we sell]

I've always struggled to buy into the Sunday club ride or race being bad training. For me a full gas group ride is the ULTIMATE training.

Yeah, the race analogy is rubbish because that's when you spend fitness that you have previously saved.

In that context, think of Garmin as a slightly condescending financial advisor. Put £1k in an ISA? Productive. Overpaid your mortgage this month? Productive. Blown £1500 on one dancer in a titty bar on a stag do because you told her your wife likes horses and she played along and pretended she liked horses too? UNPRODUCTIVE 🤣 (Not me, my best man BTW 🤣 )

It's all about balance innit.

For me a full gas group ride is the ULTIMATE training.

Based on what?

@Rollindoughnut it is certainly very specific training but that's only because it's like racing in how 'unproductive' it is from a physiological perspective.

I guess that comes back to 'what is training' and I had this very conversation with my mate the other day. He was moaning about one of the local rides and I said to him that, sometimes, you need that unpredictability otherwise you lose your edge. Going hard when your pre-planned workout says, for the duration it specifies is one thing but holding on when you want to stop but can't- is where you train your mental game. But likewise, too much of that and you end up blurring the signal to your body.

Case in point, we have a couple of riders who qualified for the Fondo worlds in Glasgow so they made a big song and dance of doing a '4h smashfest' on Saturday. The way one guy carried on about it made me decide not to go and in fact leave a WhatsApp group 🤣 But of course, I couldn't help but look at their data afterwards and it was so very MEH!

There was literally nothing about that ride that made it good training for them. Because they were so desperate to make it fast, they weren't that quick up the hills and likewise, because they were still trying to smash the hills, they weren't even that fast and because one guy was gate-keeping it, there wasn't any unpredictability either.  Average power was probably -60w on what I could do for the same duration and yet they were all creaming their bib shorts about it.

They'd have seen a much more specific training adaptation by either cruising between the hills (as they will in the bunch at the Fondo) and going all out up the climbs where the selections will be made in the race (ie working on vo2 max power) OR working on their 'high aerobic' fitness by ignoring the hills and riding the whole ride at a higher average power than they will need for the event.

As it was, they just made themselves tired for no obvious gain.

@jeffl - yep, you need power data for Cycling V02 max. I have a smart trainer for "winter" use on Zwift etc so it collects data from there.

Sounds like the OP just needs to rest more. Does look from your post that there’s not a day when you’re not doing exercise. Could well explain why your hard feeling sessions aren’t that actually that hard.

Also, as others have said, just ignore it and enjoy your riding.

And thanks to Joshvegas I now have an idea for a new Strava add on – it will find takeaways near the end of your activity and using state of the art AI (of course) will select appropriate dishes to offset the calories you just burned, with a premium option of integrating with Deliveroo.

Does shouting Strava get you a queue jump?

"Strava delivery to the sweaty heap next to the knackered polo and antique 26er premium delivery option" TICK

In reply to Rollin doughnute... you've got this upside down....

'Good example this morning: I’d planned a hard run in the classic Thursday threshold session style. However I was tired and sore from previous sessions (and my job) so I just jogged down by the river instead, stopping occasionally to enjoy the dawn.'

If on a prescribed program, it would have considered that a missed workout and my jog as unproductive. However in the circumstances my choice was by far the most productive thing I could have chosen for my long term training goals, both physically and mentally.'

No you're right and wrong at the same time.  What you did is the right thing, and the predetermined plan that said otherwise wouldn't have been correct.  However what would have been incorrecct would be to go and have a middling hard run... and even more ineffective to have a lot of middling hard runs that aren't easy, or ever hard.

Pre packaged plans and electronic gizmos cause people to make dumb choices. I believe their net affect is more negative than positive in the long run. This is coming from experience having done both styles of training and talking to many fellows over the years.

Well my Garmin would have told me to rest.  Many years of experience have taught me that plenty of people have rubbish training , and never improve even tho' they want to as they can't do easy stuff, or hard stuff, but just the stuff in the (ineffective) middle, and they've been able to do that even before watches, HRM's etc. ever became a thing.  It's not the technology that's the problem

Personally tho' I don't care if I improve much now as I'm retired from racing, so junk miles is just fine for me.  But I don't kid myself it's going to suddenly make me a lot faster.

I think there can be a middle ground on at least one but maybe two points depending on discipline and a little scientific/physiological understanding helps.   Mine is purely MTB, so as a coached rider, on Sunday - for example - I have the following choices:

a) As prescribed, 2hrs of Turbo Z2 which will result in maximal mitichondrial development plus not too tiring n effort

b) I'll change it up to Road ride with the club.  This extends my "workout" to 3.5hrs but will have less specific Z2, more Z1 and more "other" efforts higher than Z2.  But, it's a great mental break and a chance to socialise.

c) I'll change it up to 2.5hrs of a steady solo MTB on the non-race/bigger bike.  I'll probably get the lowest level of specific Z2, some mental time to myself, also some tea and cake but importantly add/maintain/test technical skills for the forthcoming Vittoria Marathon.

I don't think any of those will result in me being less capable come Monday morning or less able to complete my Tuesday Threshold intervals, regardless of what the computers will tell me.  FWIW I'm leaning toward c) as I <heart> my Occam a lot at the moment.

I wrote a long post on my phone but lost it the bottom line is don't rally worry about it unless your really serious about training and even then i think its only useful for warning that your overtraining when taken with your HRV.

Here's some of  training load figures from my Garmin from the past few weeks

100 mile gravel ride lots of climbing but taking it easy,  9 hours pedaling.   140

Zone 2 1 hour at 200w on the Wattbike   140

27 minutes Spinning  170

1 hour Hilly 7 mile run quite fast for me 245

19 mile Zone 2 run  241

To me the 100 mile ride and 19 mile run were much harder than the shorter sessions but from the Garmin algorithm the loads are about the same, as it is heavily weighted towards time spent in the higher zone.   Unless your are training a lot  or really hard , its easy to slip into the unproductive zone.    I notice that my group rides with mates sometimes barely register the last one was 2 hours gravel but was very easy and the load was just 62.

“Strava delivery to the sweaty heap next to the knackered polo and antique 26er premium delivery option”

Lol

Garmin is just programmed with the normal advice any coach would start with, and it is privy to certain metrics about you. However, what it doesn't know is how you feel on the day, wether or not your mates have asked you for a ride, what the weather is like, how hacked off you are with work etc. That's why it's only making suggestions, not giving you a rigid plan. A real life coach will take these things into account, and tell you what to do on any given day if you can't face it or simply don't want to do it. And if you regularly don't want to do it, you tell them and then they change the plan.

Garmin Connect currently tells me I'm not doing enough low aerobic (which I knew). It's not nagging me to do anything, it's just telling me what it has recorded. If people are using this information obsessively, then perhaps Garmin ought to publish something on the subject.

It also tells me I need 3 days to recover from a reasonable ride which I ignore.