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Idly searching for bikes, I come across this beauty, saw it on Pinkbike a while back. Personally I think it looks amazing... But the first ding would smart a bit, no?
Clearly there's a market for this sort of thing, would you consider one it you had the cash? Would you ride it off road?
My nomad (full build) was around the same price as the factory build, 4 years ago (incase you missed it, it’s for sale at just £2.4k 😉)
It’s replacement will be around that too.
I look after my bikes, but I’m not precious about them. they are plastic, metal and rubber, (that can be protected) and see knocks and scrapes as battle scars.
Love them and would consider one no question if I had that sort of cash, and they fit me, since the single frame size they make is a little short for me. Price is a lot for the frames but the full builds are pretty good value, when you consider what you get on the build.
To be honest I don't even think the frame price is too ridiculous when you compare to similar high end carbon frames, and then consider that these are made in very limited numbers, all Spanish manufactured. I think the back story is great, and Cesar does some really good stuff, and is a lovely bloke too.
I don’t like the look of it at all - the top tube area with the huge seat tube bracing, then a thin bit, then he upper shock mount. Then take into account it only comes in one size and it’s looking very expensive, but also very limited in who it’s going to fit properly.
Appreciate who has designed the suspension and that it’s not manufactured in the Far East are good selling points though - if it fits / you can afford it and justify the cost.
would you consider one it you had the cash
no
Would I ride it off road? I'm not sure what else I'd want to do with it.
I wouldn't consider it since it doesn't fit me, but if I had loads of cash I'd consider something similar. It's a lot cheaper than if I were to buy my dream car.
I'm happy enough spending loads on the right bike, but I just can't see the point in the Unno range at that cost.
I think Cesar Rojo is great and I love what he's done to push progression in bike design. It would appear he's gone full way out crazy with geometry over the years, then reined it back in to where he is now with Unno.
It could be any generic carbon frame now really, a dead nice one nonetheless. Not £5000 nice though.
His downtime podcast on Pinkbike a rew days ago is a good listen.
Clearly there’s a market for this sort of thing,
Well, 50 units a year. I suppose that is a 'market' assuming they make 50‰ profit on each (unlikely), that's €12.5k a year, doesn't exactly sound like there's a sustainable business plan sat behind it.
would you consider one it you had the cash?
No, they'll be gone in a couple of years, and TBH their product looks rather similar to every other VPP enduro dandyhorse out there for half the price, it's clearly an engineer led mondraker spin-off...
Would you ride it off road?
That's what they're selling it for, why would you buy a bicycle and not use it for its intended job?
The problem is for the market, the price is probably a bit too high, but for the limited quantity actually being sold its probably too low...
If you're impressed by high price tags, bespoke/boutique manufacturer in a first world city and exclusively then I'm sure it's well worth it, but it isn't a product for pragmatists...
doesn’t exactly sound like there’s a sustainable business plan sat behind it.
why is it, with almost zero knowledge of how a company finances itself, do people come out with sort of stuff?
Well, 50 units a year. I suppose that is a ‘market’ assuming they make 50‰ profit on each (unlikely), that’s €12.5k a year, doesn’t exactly sound like there’s a sustainable business plan sat behind it.
Think they need to sack their accountant first.
fairly sure on his vitalmtb podcast he said unno wasn't intended to make a profit or something along those lines? more of a side project to the moto business
I'd have one if I had the cash for sure, much rather that than one sitting unused being bought only as bling. I think they should do some kind of rider means test on the buyers so they actually get used as intended!
Well, 50 units a year. I suppose that is a ‘market’ assuming they make 50‰ profit on each (unlikely), that’s €12.5k a year, doesn’t exactly sound like there’s a sustainable business plan sat behind it.
what if it was €125,000?
why is it, with almost zero knowledge of how a company finances itself, do people come out with sort of stuff?
My point was that despite the seemingly exorbitant price per frame, being limited to 50 units per year means they can't actually be making much if anything from it, they've got to cover materials, tooling and (Spanish) labour... I reckon they're expensive, but should probably actually cost more.
They've got five frames in the range, all similarly limited to 50 units (HTs not all available yet it seems) those that they are selling already are around the €5k mark... So at peak they'll be flogging 250 units PA, but if they've got more than a couple of staff expecting a living wage, other overheads to cover and loans/investors to pay back, I just can't see how they're going to go more than a couple of years like that, either the volume or the prices will need to increase...
I'm sure I'm a "hater" or whatever, and people who make bikes "do it for love not money" , but seriously I can't see how it works as a business...
what if it was €125,000?
Good point 🤔, not that I believe they are operating at 50% profit, I just can't imagine they'll be covering all their costs for 5k a unit at such low volumes<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">...</span>
So at peak they’ll be flogging 250 units PA, but if they’ve got more than a couple of staff expecting a living wage, other overheads to cover and loans/investors to pay back, I just can’t see how they’re going to go more than a couple of years like that, either the volume or the prices will need to increase…
If you underestimate their turnover by a factor of 10 then yes, you'd be forgiven for thinking they'll struggle.
The company behind Unno was already a viable business, doing design work for numerous MTB and motorbike companies. And they’ve also been developing the Unno range for a few years, so a load of cost with no return until now. And now they’re actually selling their own bikes someone here thinks that they’re not a viable business? Bizarre!
Cookeaa, it doesn't make you a "hater". It just makes you ignorant (in the true sense of the word, not the pejorative) My point was that many times on here (On One, HebTroCo, even STW itself ) people on this website particularly feel the need to make pronouncements on how companies make money (or more specifically in their minds) cannot... It baffles me that without access to their P&L or long term finance plan, or monthly EBITDA analysis, or even a basic knowledge (like this case) who the actual company is and what they do apart from bikes (which 2 minutes of googling would reveal)
It could be that they intend to just break even, it could be that they're content that these bikes even lose money, and they're doing it to make a name for themselves, (in lieu of a marketing exercise for the rest of the activity of the company for instance) it could be that they have deep enough pockets just to be doing it for shits and giggles...
It could be that they intend to just break even, it could be that they’re content that these bikes even lose money, and they’re doing it to make a name for themselves, (in lieu of a marketing exercise for the rest of the activity of the company for instance) it could be that they have deep enough pockets just to be doing it for shits and giggles…
Indeed, and I suppose your speculation is as valid as any of the rest of ours.
Yes STW does have its share of business skeptics as well as the wide-eyed fanbois for anything 'new'. I'd simply counter with the question; why is it so terrible to question these things? Unbalanced universal praise can be as damaging as total cynicism.
The OP asked if we would buy from this company, I offered my opinion based on what I can see (admittedly from my ignorant skimming of a couple of websites), but I wouldn't want to be a customer of this brand, to me it seems like either a poorly planned business, or as you suggest someone's "springtime for Hitler" exercise, neither appeals...
Where Unno not the people really behind Mondraker’s forward geo.
There’s one of these Burns floating round Europe as Taylor vernon had his proto nicked from outside a pub in Morzine last month while he was having a beer.
Making a mountain bike in one size is a bit of a joke isn't it?
A 455mm reach means they can only sell to people between say 5ft8 and 5ft11. Granted there's all the additional design costs and tooling required to make additional sizes but compared to the main design costs (frame shape/layup/kinematics) you'd massively increase the market size for relatively little outlay.
y'all need to listen to this and stop the jibber jabber https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/The-Inside-Line-Podcast-Cesar-Rojo-Founder-of-UNNO-and-Cero-Design,2045
I only ever look at what I can afford so items like this find very difficult to give any shits about!
A 455mm reach means they can only sell to people between say 5ft8 and 5ft11
I know!!...I'm right in the middle of that...I need to start a crowd fund.
I'm not sure what the following says about me but I'll say it anyway.
At that price (or even at the prices I can afford) id also really need to like the look of the bike/frame as much as how it rode etc.
That frame isn't ugly, really, but it's not far off!
Still, if you can afford it and like it, crack on.👍
Making a mountain bike in one size is a bit of a joke isn’t it?
A 455mm reach means they can only sell to people between say 5ft8 and 5ft11. Granted there’s all the additional design costs and tooling required to make additional sizes but compared to the main design costs (frame shape/layup/kinematics) you’d massively increase the market size for relatively little outlay.
Not really though.
You would need different tube shapes and layups for each size as longer tubes of the same diameter and layup would be less stiff. So what they're doing is making a bike that will fit probably 50-60% of the population as well as any other bike brand (based on the number of Mediums for sale on Pinkbike) and as they only need to sell 50 of them why bother trying to scale upto 100 and having to make 4x a many molds, prototypes, layup schedules, submissions for CEN tests.
And on a real world example, it worked for Stooge among others who started off with very limited ranges.
And it's arguably less limiting starting off with 5x bikes in one size, than brands starting off with one bike in several sizes (50-60% of the whole mountain biking market rather than 100% of a niche).
And on a real world example, it worked for Stooge among others who started off with very limited ranges.
and Calibre with the Dune certainly, not sure about others in their range (rwt 'one size fits most')